Oldbear83 said:

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I agree that we need to address health care and its cost, but cannot agree that it is a right.

Rights exist as a natural condition and do not require a government to be there. That is the starting point for our Constitutional rights: Our founders recognized them, they did not make them .

The problem with calling health care a 'right', is that such a claim leads to demands for it to be free for everyone. Do I really have to bring up Socialized Medicine to remind everyone where that goes?

So no, health care is a goal, a priority, but not a right.

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Nobody is saying that if you can afford to buy quality care that you can't. Socialized Medicine is one option for everyone. I am not saying that. Only everyone should be entitled to a base level of health care.

The alternative is they use the ER as a Doctor's office which cost more than setting up a clinic. Or, they don't get care and it turns into indigent care. The Government provides a huge safety net for people that would otherwise not be able to afford their medications.

I am sure there are more issues that people disagree with on this site. I agree with Eisenhower, if the Government can make the lives of people better, we should do it.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I agree that we need to address health care and its cost, but cannot agree that it is a right.

Rights exist as a natural condition and do not require a government to be there. That is the starting point for our Constitutional rights: Our founders recognized them, they did not make them .

The problem with calling health care a 'right', is that such a claim leads to demands for it to be free for everyone. Do I really have to bring up Socialized Medicine to remind everyone where that goes?

So no, health care is a goal, a priority, but not a right.

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Nobody is saying that if you can afford to buy quality care that you can't. Socialized Medicine is one option for everyone. I am not saying that. Only everyone should be entitled to a base level of health care.

The alternative is they use the ER as a Doctor's office which cost more than setting up a clinic. Or, they don't get care and it turns into indigent care. The Government provides a huge safety net for people that would otherwise not be able to afford their medications.

I am sure there are more issues that people disagree with on this site. I agree with Eisenhower, if the Government can make the lives of people better, we should do it.

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Overall I agree that everyone should be entitled to a base level of health care.

Health care is like the highway system.

Great idea if you can afford it, especially if you make sure all stakeholders have a voice.

But it's still not a right.

Oldbear83 said:

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Health care is like the highway system.

Great idea if you can afford it, especially if you make sure all stakeholders have a voice.

But it's still not a right.

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This has been argued for over 100 years. No surprise we don't agree. It is a very contentious subject. Personally, we spend money in so many different areas that are less productive. It would be money well spent. But I also think Health Insurance should cover prevention as much as treatment.

KaiBear said:

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J.R. said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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J.R. said:

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Mamdami.....good luck with all that. Having said that, the 2 new governors are patriots, Naval Academy, Navy helicopter pilot. CIA operative with an MBA. Nah, we have draft dodger. The peeps have had it with toad man as evidenced last night.

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Do you think a state's chief law enforcement officer calling for the assassination of children should be disqualifying?

Calling a black woman a toad man is really inappropriate if even you support the party of the Klan.

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proof and documentation please

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How are things in France ?

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they were great. a. little chilly. We are currently in Thailand. Trying to find a suitable Ladyboy to bring home for your Hank. Hanky, do you prefer the Addams Apple shaved down? Great here.

In response to your post:
Who determines what the base level is?

Who determines who administers the base level?

"Who decides when any individual exceeds the base level?

What do you do with the people that exceed the base level?"

Those plus many others are good, necessary and complex questions. Supposedly there is research indicating that we, as a country, proportionately spend more on healthcare than some other developed countries and get significantly less. Perhaps scrutinizing in detail the ones ranked the highest could give us some insight on how we can improve (minus the ideological politics and special interests in healthcare industry).

J.R. said:

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KaiBear said:

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J.R. said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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J.R. said:

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Mamdami.....good luck with all that. Having said that, the 2 new governors are patriots, Naval Academy, Navy helicopter pilot. CIA operative with an MBA. Nah, we have draft dodger. The peeps have had it with toad man as evidenced last night.

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Do you think a state's chief law enforcement officer calling for the assassination of children should be disqualifying?

Calling a black woman a toad man is really inappropriate if even you support the party of the Klan.

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proof and documentation please

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How are things in France ?

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they were great. a. little chilly. We are currently in Thailand. Trying to find a suitable Ladyboy to bring home for your Hank. Hanky, do you prefer the Addams Apple shaved down? Great here.

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Can understand living in France.

Thailand is too hot and humid for me.

FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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KaiBear said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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KaiBear said:

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BUDOS said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

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I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

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I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

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Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

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Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

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That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

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No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

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looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

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To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

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Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

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I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

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Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

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I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

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And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

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the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

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Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

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Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

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Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

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First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

BUDOS said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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BUDOS said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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BUDOS said:

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Harrison, okay, I agree that I didn't directly respond to your question, and that it is probably because I thought you were making it personal due to my background in higher education, particularly Baylor.

To answer your question more directly, my response is to refer to the majority of both historical and recent research which indicates that the more education one has the increased tendency for an individual in that group to be more liberal. However, substantive, but not unanimous research indicates that as liberals and conservatives move toward the ends of their ideological spectrum, the more opinionated and closed minded they become, although liberals, by a relatively small margin tend to be more open to debating opposing ideas, whether they are political, cultural, social, economic, religious, etc. So, although the majority of college professors may tend to have liberal views, the group is not monolithic.

It is important that students be exposed to a variety of political ideologies and to debate them in a safe environment. As a graduate student in political science at Baylor I had the opportunity to be exposed to a variety, although the conservative views were not as well presented, at least from my perspective as a semi-Libertarian at the time.
However that ship has sailed, and the ship is now adrift. We need more people like many on this forum who at least read the posts, exposing themselves to the arguments which are made. Unfortunately we oftentimes turn them off with our unnecessary toxic rhetoric and they move on.

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Again, you sort of avoid the simple question: what percentage of college professors openly identify as conservative, Republican ... heck, even independent or moderate. How many - what percentage are simply not radical extremists? How many actively promote conservative causes? I would be shocked if it is 1%. So there is a correlation between higher education and radical indoctrination because students are not exposed to diverse views but radical extremism, so they are going to carry that with them - especially women who tend to be irrational and illogical.

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I disagree. I believe I did answer your question; however, it was not within the parameters you were wanting.
So, I did some research, and I think I have a response that is a bit closer and somewhat more direct, with some context, from an article which I have edited for brevity. Here goes:

Actually, There Are More Conservatives on the Faculty Than You Think, Study Finds
By Alex Walters July 26, 2024

By scraping the accounts of more than 4,000 faculty members at over 500 institutions, says that the professoriate's political persuasions are more diverse than previous survey-based research would suggest. The findings come as many conservative policymakers have sought to rein in a perceived left-leaning bias in academe, often drumming up fear over suspected liberal indoctrination.

While conservative faculty members remain a minority, the study finds far more of them than previous research did, with over 13 percent categorized as strongly right-leaning. A major survey-based study in 2013 found that around 9 percent of professors identified as strongly conservative.

Some of the new study's other findings, though, back up long-established trends: Tenured faculty members are more conservative than junior scholars are, and there are major ideological disparities between disciplines. Business professors and economists, for example, are often very conservative; the humanities and some sociology subfields, meanwhile, are "decidedly liberal."

The larger share of conservative scholars found in the study could be a product of its contemporary methodology, rather than actual changes in beliefs. Previous studies of faculty politics employed surveys in which professors categorized or described themselves. This study argues that those results could be inaccurate because studies indicate older professors "might think they're liberal compared to a goalpost they set 30 years prior, but that old goalpost now makes them far-right conservative." Additionally, many professors may have misleadingly labeled themselves as moderate because "no one wants to think of themselves as inherently radical." The 2013 study found around half of professors identified as moderate; this one says only about 15 percent actually are.

The study, which is based on data collected from 2021 to 2022, attempted to bypass people's inaccurate self-images with an algorithm that scored their politics by evaluating their likes, posts, followings, and interactions on the website formerly known as Twitter. Professors created that data set "thinking no one was watching," leading to more accurate results.

The method isn't new. The algorithm was originally developed in other studies that compared its predictions to users' voter registrations, and found it accurate. The application to professors creates an "amazing snapshot" of today's faculty leanings but doesn't prove there is open debate on campuses.

There's a lot of concern from the right about "the distribution of opinions" in higher education, but the "root problem" is actually whether there are mechanisms and policies in place to allow expression of all views. That's a matter of college leaders' creating the right conditions for free inquiry.

Additionally, I want to respond also to your following statement:
"So there is a correlation between higher education and radical indoctrination because students are not exposed to diverse views but radical extremism, so they are going to carry that with them - especially women who tend to be irrational and illogical."

I suppose you have research which confirms your alleged correlation. Having attended a small private Christian undergrad institution, Baylor for my grad, University of North Texas for my doctorate, served at a couple of state universities and community colleges I can agree that there are some instructors who are biased, very few who I would consider radical. I was disappointed in your comment about women. I have served with, for and under them in a variety of roles. Based on my experience, and my graduate research on liberal and conservatives and their mindsets, I disagree.

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Thank you for your response. I take a little umbrage with what I perceive as your snark: if one asks you, "what is your favorite color," and you said "chicken salad," would that be I believe I did answer your question; however, it was not within the parameters you were wanting.

That being said, I do appreciate your attempt, and I don't really care to go round-and-round about the "study" you posted; even so, 13% if actual demonstrates the tremendous imbalance and lack of diversity. Given your resume, I am sure you can attest to seeing lots of burn loot murder and big gay flags on campus but probably not too many professors with a pro-life or "I believe in biology" sign. One just had to read a newspaper regularly to understand the level of intensity of radicalism on campus vs. that of quiet conservatism. Have you forgotten a radical assassinated Charlie Kirk, and he was celebrated. I am honestly surprised this is even a topic you would want to dispute. Universities gave us fake racism hoaxes, safe spaces, and race-based dorms and graduations and continue to hire radical, violent, leftists and just leftists will silly ideas. But you do you if you want to think that there is no indoctrination on campus. I certainly am not going to change your mind.

While my comment on women was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, few are rational when it comes to politics. They overwhelmingly voted for a mayor in NYC that would put them in hijabs, not allow them to drive, and make them literally property. While not as crazy as "Queers for Palestine," not that much further.

Cheers to you as the one guy in America that thinks the Academy is a hotbed of conservative thought.

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Harrison, I apologize for stating my opening comments in a manner you which you misperceived. It was meant just as I stated, which is why I then attempted to respond to your question in a more direct manner. Am I correct in that you perceived that it was my opinion and findings of which you were responding? If so that is incorrect. I was merely inserting passages of an article which I edited for brevity. Within that, I don't believe I stated an opinion. At the end I did summarize my own experiences. Apparently, you have had opposing experiences. It happens.

Having spent most of my professional life in higher education as an administrator, faculty member, and moderate conservative, I can partially understand some of your angst toward higher education--just not to the degree you do. I did not say that there was no indoctrination on campuses. I especially remember Dr. Edwards, one of my political science professors, who made no secret of his liberal views and his distaste for Dr. McCall, Dr. Reynolds and the Board. He enjoyed telling us that Baylor was so out of touch with reality with all of its conservative crap and "What Baylor University needs is a few more funerals within the administration." Dr. Miller shared much of that perspective, but not as direct.

At the time I was a semi-active libertarian, submitting papers somewhat objectively defending the John Birch Society, critical of Ralph Nader and the dangers he presented to a capitalist society, and such. A couple of my professors were not impressed, and we finally met in Dr. McCall's office, when I protested what I perceived as discriminatory grading. I'm aware of the direction to which you refer. It happens, and unfortunately, at a time when minds are often more impressionable than at others.

So, I don't disagree with your comment about the disparity and that I also would like to see that reduced. Resolving that issue is one which may be complex to implement; however, it does and should be addressed. Perhaps you have some ideas on how this might be addressed and how they could be implemented.

However, due to my personal experiences with students and efforts to give them more opportunities for input in policy, voting rights in hiring, faculty and staff evaluations, etc., I have not witnessed the extreme measures to which you refer, except in rare cases. Too many teachers, at all levels, appear to focus on what to think, not how to think. However, in my own teaching experiences, too many students don't care either way; they just want to know what the teacher thinks so they can direct their responses in class and on the exams in like manner. Crap man, too many never learn to truly think, and then they wonder how the hell our country got in the mess it's in!! (And they sure as hell are not going to blame themselves because they can't figure it out.)

I do not believe higher education is a hotbed of conservatism and I didn't say it was. I will admit, that, at this point, based on my personal experience of nearly a lifetime in higher education that you are not going to change mine. And, especially after reviewing your last couple of posts that your mind is pretty much made up. Despite that I appreciate that you put forth the effort to read the material and respond to it.

I apologize if the wording in my response was interpreted in a snarky tone. I try to avoid that, as regardless of how snarky I sometimes attempt to be, too many guys in this forum seem to live for nothing more than the opportunity to demean, dehumanize, ridicule, emasculate and character assassinate those who disagree, with some even enjoying dessert by eating some of their own at times--yet offer noting of real value in return.

Well, are "we" going to see if those who take the time to read this are going to actually attempt to respond with something of value, or respond "otherwise'?

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I will state again - I suspect we agree 100% of the time ... but we each have some blind spots that drives some misinterpretation or bias that causes that gray. Nothing you posted I quibble with. While not being a member of it, I suspect this is the biggest problem with our system:

However, in my own teaching experiences, too many students don't care either way; they just want to know what the teacher thinks so they can direct their responses in class and on the exams in like manner. Crap man, too many never learn to truly think, and then they wonder how the hell our country got in the mess it's in!! (And they sure as hell are not going to blame themselves because they can't figure it out.)

I think the difference is - again my opinion with no data to support. When I was at Baylor, I was confident in my convictions and could debate politics with the best of them ... even if the profs disagreed with me they respected that often I whipped their ass if they would not admit it. Today, I would be labeled a racist, fascist, National Socialist and booted off campus (not at Baylor but at many universities for violating "safe spaces.")

Universities should be a laboratory for ALL ideals, but the radical left decided in the mid-00s that only radical left-wing ideas should be tolerated, and everything else was "dangerous."

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Health care is like the highway system.

Great idea if you can afford it, especially if you make sure all stakeholders have a voice.

But it's still not a right.

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This has been argued for over 100 years. No surprise we don't agree. It is a very contentious subject. Personally, we spend money in so many different areas that are less productive. It would be money well spent. But I also think Health Insurance should cover prevention as much as treatment.

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Good topic.

And on this topic we may agree more than you think. My problem is calling something a "right" just because you really want it. That's how leftists get started on really stupid campaigns.


I also think that knee-jerk reactions lead to avoidable pain. Shewt, the ACA was a con game which won over people by stuffing lies into promises the politicians never intended to keep.

So whatever we do, stay away from ACA and anything like it.

The real problem is that very, very few people in government really want to fix healthcare. 95% plus just want to make their own fortune, maybe build political influence by making as many people dependent on them as they can.

Anyone really think the insurance companies won't do everything they can to keep their obscene profits?

Anyone really think all those hospital and physician associations will go back to putting their patients' long-term health ahead of money?

We need someone smart, charismatic and persuasive to make it cool to do the right thing in healthcare.

Good luck with that.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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KaiBear said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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KaiBear said:

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BUDOS said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

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To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

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Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

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I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

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Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

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I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

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And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

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the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

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Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

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the subsidy doesn't end until December. We can always extend it month by month, defacto CR while the negotiations are ongoing

What Dems tried to do was force the crisis 90-days early to try to roll the GOP into making a hasty bad deal. And they had silver lining of helping them in some key state elections, particularly VA where the electorate is disproportionately federal workforce.

But it didn't work. Trump called their bluff. Now, they have to deal with it as a stand-alone issue, in a context where everyone knows it's a failure and will have to be substantially if not totally replaced.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

the subsidy doesn't end until December. We can always extend it month by month, defacto CR while the negotiations are ongoing

What Dems tried to do was force the crisis 90-days early to try to roll the GOP into making a hasty bad deal. And they had silver lining of helping them in some key state elections, particularly VA where the electorate is disproportionately federal workforce.

But it didn't work. Trump called their bluff. Now, they have to deal with it as a stand-alone issue, in a context where everyone knows it's a failure and will have to be substantially if not totally replaced.

---

Anyone that had two brain cells to rub together could do the math and realize they were supposedly asking for a $62,000 / person subsidy for Obamacare. Even the most female of Democrats are not that stupid - which mean most of the $1.5T was for illegals.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

---

Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

---

Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

---

That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

---

No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

---

Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

---

First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

---

We can call it Romneycare if it makes you feel better.

BUDOS said:

---

In response to your post:
Who determines what the base level is?

Who determines who administers the base level?

"Who decides when any individual exceeds the base level?

What do you do with the people that exceed the base level?"

Those plus many others are good, necessary and complex questions. Supposedly there is research indicating that we, as a country, proportionately spend more on healthcare than some other developed countries and get significantly less. Perhaps scrutinizing in detail the ones ranked the highest could give us some insight on how we can improve (minus the ideological politics and special interests in healthcare industry).

---

And that's the key…ideology and special interests. Sure, in an ideal world Republicans would offer a viable market-based alternative to ACA. But they're never going to do it.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

---

Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

---

Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

---

That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

---

No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

---

Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

---

First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

---

Wow, a mix of arrogance, paranoia and condescension... Tough to hit all three AND appear as the victim. You put such energy into paranoia and conspiracy theories. Your meds ok?

Trump DOES NOT have an alternative. Trump and GOP ARE going to let the subsidies expire which will raise premiums. If that happens, Trump will be blamed right before the mid-terms.

Rather than WASTING all that energy on paranoid, poor me-ism. How about coming up with an alternative before taking an existing program away. Like it or not, call it whatever makes you feel comfortable but it does exist and people do use it.


I understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. I used "right" on purpose. There is no right or wrong on someone's personal believes, as much as you would seem to want to dictate what they are. Sorry, if a person needs medical care, they should get it. I don't think we should let someone die in the street because they don't meet the qualifications of your entitlement. But, I am sure you would. Not a citizen, let them bleed out, right?

So in other words, if the Republicans don't start acting like Democrats they are going to lose the election.

News Flash - if the Republicans start acting like Democrats, then the election will not matter.

Or legislators could choose to do what is best for the country and not the party.

BUDOS said:

---

Or legislators could choose to do what is best for the country and not the party.

---

Or legislators could do what's best for the country and be immediately voted out of office by an enraged electorate

BUDOS said:

---

Or legislators could choose to do what is best for the country and not the party.

---

Some are. They've consistently voted to reopen the government since it was shut down.

BUDOS said:

---

Or legislators could choose to do what is best for the country and not the party.

---

Do you think it was best for the country to shut down the government to circumvent democracy?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

---

Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

---

Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

---

That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

---

No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

---

Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

---

First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

---

Wow, a mix of arrogance, paranoia and condescension... Tough to hit all three AND appear as the victim. You put such energy into paranoia and conspiracy theories. Your meds ok?

Trump DOES NOT have an alternative. Trump and GOP ARE going to let the subsidies expire which will raise premiums. If that happens, Trump will be blamed right before the mid-terms.

Rather than WASTING all that energy on paranoid, poor me-ism. How about coming up with an alternative before taking an existing program away. Like it or not, call it whatever makes you feel comfortable but it does exist and people do use it.


I understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. I used "right" on purpose. There is no right or wrong on someone's personal believes, as much as you would seem to want to dictate what they are. Sorry, if a person needs medical care, they should get it. I don't think we should let someone die in the street because they don't meet the qualifications of your entitlement. But, I am sure you would. Not a citizen, let them bleed out, right?

---

While I appreciate the weird projection, the bloviation does not make health care a right. It still is not.

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years?

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

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KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

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BUDOS said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

---

Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

---

Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

---

That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

---

No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

---

Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

---

First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

---

Wow, a mix of arrogance, paranoia and condescension... Tough to hit all three AND appear as the victim. You put such energy into paranoia and conspiracy theories. Your meds ok?

Trump DOES NOT have an alternative. Trump and GOP ARE going to let the subsidies expire which will raise premiums. If that happens, Trump will be blamed right before the mid-terms.

Rather than WASTING all that energy on paranoid, poor me-ism. How about coming up with an alternative before taking an existing program away. Like it or not, call it whatever makes you feel comfortable but it does exist and people do use it.


I understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. I used "right" on purpose. There is no right or wrong on someone's personal believes, as much as you would seem to want to dictate what they are. Sorry, if a person needs medical care, they should get it. I don't think we should let someone die in the street because they don't meet the qualifications of your entitlement. But, I am sure you would. Not a citizen, let them bleed out, right?

---

While I appreciate the weird projection, the bloviation does not make health care a right. It still is not.

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years?

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

---

Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

---

Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

---

That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

---

No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

---

looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

---

To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

---

Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

---

I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

---

Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

---

I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

---

And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

---

the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

---

Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

---

Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

---

Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

---

First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

---

Wow, a mix of arrogance, paranoia and condescension... Tough to hit all three AND appear as the victim. You put such energy into paranoia and conspiracy theories. Your meds ok?

Trump DOES NOT have an alternative. Trump and GOP ARE going to let the subsidies expire which will raise premiums. If that happens, Trump will be blamed right before the mid-terms.

Rather than WASTING all that energy on paranoid, poor me-ism. How about coming up with an alternative before taking an existing program away. Like it or not, call it whatever makes you feel comfortable but it does exist and people do use it.


I understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. I used "right" on purpose. There is no right or wrong on someone's personal believes, as much as you would seem to want to dictate what they are. Sorry, if a person needs medical care, they should get it. I don't think we should let someone die in the street because they don't meet the qualifications of your entitlement. But, I am sure you would. Not a citizen, let them bleed out, right?

---

While I appreciate the weird projection, the bloviation does not make health care a right. It still is not.

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years?

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

---

You are stuck on what is right in an election process? Are you 12? What world have you lived in where everything is fair and everyone accepts all the facts? Have you been in many election cycles?

Seriously, they have it now at X dollars, on Trumps watch it will become too expensive, he wont approve it continuing the subsidy, it isn't Trumps fault? How is it not? Approve the subsidy until you get an alternative they have insurance. Don't and they lose it. Rather simple, it is his call whether there is a health care option they can afford.

i disagree with you, basic health/medical care is a right. Everyone is entitled to be treated when ill or hurt. Ot is a basic humane position. i agree with WHO on this one.

And i would bet if hit by a car somewhere you would agree too. You dont have your papers so let you bleed out, that is what you want, right?

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

GrowlTowel said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Dems must be so stupid to revolt and vote against this regime.

Fun fact, easy to find. For the last 20 or so years, voters with an education beyond high school are more likely to vote dem. The opposite is also true. The less education a voter has the more likely they are to vote Repub.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/partisanship-by-race-ethnicity-and-education/


https://www.americansurveycenter.org/short-reads/a-college-educated-


party/https://www.americansurveycenter.org/short-reads/a-college-educated-party/
nhttps://www.npr.org/2024/10/22/nx-s1-5155899/why-education-is-becoming-a-bigger-divide-in-politics

---

Makes you wonder who controls higher education doesn't it.

---

Makes me wonder why the more education one has the more likely one is to vote democrat. This board is an excpetion. Most highly educated vote democrat. I am the exception, I have a few degrees and certs and a masters but i dont vote dem. Still think it is an interesting question.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

---

How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Harrison, the answer to your question: "Which party is voting against the Continuing Resolution?" Is the Democratic Party.

However, I have a hard time believing Little Mikey would not open it up if Trump said to. Why not accept the compromise resolution to extend the discounts for a year while negotiating for the necessary revisions?

---

I agree. We need something to take the place, not just we will do better. Sister in Law was just diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer, if during the break it would be more of a nightmare. She lives in rural Eastern Colorado, not a lot of choices out there.

---

I think you keep missing the question: do you genuinely think President Trump is responsible for shutting down the government?

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Responsible? Tough question. Technically, no. It is Congress and Johnson. This particular Congress takes its lead from the White House more than any I can ever remember. I have not seen a co-equal Branch just bend a knee like this, ever. So, he is just as culpable as the Johnson and the Dems. Trump can end this now, just punt on Obamacare. Dems can't just accept Trump's proposal under any circumstance, he knows it. This is going to get real bad.

I do believe Trump submitted a CR that he knew would do this and he is good with it. He is viewing it as breaking a union. That is the best analogy I can find, Trump will continue to turn up the pressure, case in point - FAA and reducing flights coming into Thanksgiving. This is union busting, he is going to either bankrupt the Company (US) or he is going to break the Union (Dems). Us little people will pay the price.

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Do you think it is appropriate in a Democracy for a political party to inflict pain on its citizens in order to circumvent democratically passed legislation? Does that seem like how a democracy should operate or is it more of a tactic of authoritarianism?

Do you support Democrats' refusal to pass the Continuing Resolution? Is it democratic and just?

Why do you think the Democrats will not pass the CR and then bring up legislation for debate?

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That is a two way street. Using your logic, anything Johnson and Trump put in front of them, they should sign?

Do you think it is appropriate for the Party in power to not listen to the minority party and inflict pain on citizens and insist "sign it" or we will keep it closed. That is not negotiations, that is extortion with hostages.

Can be cut numerous ways.

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No. It is actually very simple and not at all complicated.

The Democrats should vote to fund the government with a clean Continuing Resolution.

If they Democrats want to bring legislation to the House and Senate for debate and passage there is a well defined means to do so. That is how democracy works in our republic.

It is the Democrats who are intentionally inflicting pain on citizens to undermine democracy. The only reason they get away with it is because of a dishonest oligarch media and idiots that do not understand or care how democracy works.

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looks like it is going to play out to like you said.

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To make a sad and bad situation worse, our president uses the courts in an effort to prevent the states from dispensing SNAP funds. Some of these people are children and he knows it. Despite years of criticism about Medicare, he still doesn't have a plan to offer. Instead, like so many of us, he just gripes. It's pretty obvious that Medicare needs significant revision. It's pretty obvious that Trump cares little about feeding needy children, and that he has had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than Medicare. Research indicates that the best leadership qualities include integrity, clear communication, accountability, problem-solving ability and empathy.

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Dems voted over 12 times to keep the government closed.

Putting all Americans at risk.

But you be you.

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I know that sometimes I act snarky or like an ******* in my responses ... and it is because I genuinely cannot wrap my head around the fact that over-educated people cannot grasp the most simple fact that is not disputable. I ponder if it is just basic ignorance, stupidity, propaganda, or trolling. I just expect some baseline protocol - more and more I think people have started just to create and alternate reality that fits their desired argument and just hope everyone else joins it.

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Folks have always been this way.

They hitch their ego to a particular team ( political party ) and reality takes 2nd place.

However when MILLIONS of illegals swarm into our country ; boys are playing in girls sports ; or drag queens are demanding the 'right' to establish cultural norms …..one would hope rational individuals would do what's obviously best for their country and their children.

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I think there is an important distinction - it's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference or reality. It's the famous Moynihan adage of "a right to your opinion but not a right to your own facts." It's the difference between the real and honest: 1. I support the Democrats using poor people as pawns to shut down the government because the agenda is what matters, and 2. Trump is shutting down the government; the Democrats voted to keep it open.

There is an entire segment of the population that lives in a hazy dream world - it's the Martha's Vineyard Axiom: We Want Illegal Immigration ... Unless it Impacts Our Lives.

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And how often do facts play into elections??

As much as Kai is stuck on illegal immigration and fentanyl, I assume something with both immediately impacted his or someone he cares about's life. Health care is that issue for a lot of American's.

So, your "fact". Dem's voted 12 times to keep the Government shut. True, is it a positive or a negative? For the person with Health Care issues, they did it to protect people's health care.U Now, if Health Care and ACA is your "Kai immigration issue", do you view the 12 times as a negative? Or, do you vote it as fighting to keep me able to go to the Dr?
that's trans-reality The Obamacare subsidies are still getting paid, so no one's health care is being harmed.

Your "facts" are not as black and white as you think. It depends on your trigger issue. Health Care, inflation, and the stock market impacts me much more than fentanyl or immigration. Neither of those are trigger issues. What Kai sees as a non-negotiable blow them up, I see as a TV spot on the news that really doesn't do anything.
Yes, the facts are pretty simple. The "clean CR" is an old and uncontentious tactic to keep the trains running while larger or more contentious issues are debated.

I can't put it simpler for you, your view on "facts" is not the absolute authority, these are not Laws of Physics.

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the cold hard fact is, Democrats wasted 40 days arguing over extending for another 60 days the exact same Biden Budget they all voted for a year ago. And they did it to create a crisis they hoped would cause the GOP to cave on Obamacare....to get them to agree to continue paying subsidies rather than repairing/replacing the ACA.

your instinct to find the middle ground fallacy is unerring.....

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Actually, we agree on replacing ACA. That is my point, there HAS to be something to replace it before you end the subsidies or it is a loser for the GOP.

ACA can be the worst program ever, but it is all many have. Letting it become more expensive or killing it WITHOUT a replacement is an election nightmare.

You guys are great at pointing out how much EVERYTHING sucks (except whatever it is you did) and how bad it is. COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES THE SERVICE AND COST LESS.

You are all against a 50 year mortgage the Trump floated, but come up with nothing besides listen to Dave Ramsey and live in your car until you can afford it... GOP needs some solutions and giving it to the Private sector ain't it...

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Why do you think subsidies put in place during the covid era are required four years after covid?

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Because basic health care should not be unattainable. It is a basic right, in my opinion. Which has changed over the years. We are not talking cosmetics, voluntary or even non-necessary but recommended. We are talking treating disease. Denying a diabetic insulin or not performing angioplasty when we can because they can't pay, just is not right.

So, if Trump had an alternative I would be all for it. He doesn't. The private sector and big pharm have proven they don't give a **** about anything but prophet and limited liability. Sadly, ACA is the best we got right now for a lot of Americans. We waste money in the US on a lot less noble things than trying to help people when they are sick or injured.

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First, I think you need to understand what are rights. Rights are not entitlements to but protections from. Rights are what you have that prevents the government from taking from you. Rights are not entitlements to other peoples' money.

Again, you seem to want to blame Trump for what you perceive to be a problem with the U.S. health care system while denying that Obamacare is the only significant piece of legislation passed by the Democrats since the Great Society. (Yes, we all notice the marching orders you guys have all gotten to suddenly move to "ACA" from "Obamacare." Yes, we noticed. We know how you guys do propaganda.)

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Wow, a mix of arrogance, paranoia and condescension... Tough to hit all three AND appear as the victim. You put such energy into paranoia and conspiracy theories. Your meds ok?

Trump DOES NOT have an alternative. Trump and GOP ARE going to let the subsidies expire which will raise premiums. If that happens, Trump will be blamed right before the mid-terms.

Rather than WASTING all that energy on paranoid, poor me-ism. How about coming up with an alternative before taking an existing program away. Like it or not, call it whatever makes you feel comfortable but it does exist and people do use it.


I understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. I used "right" on purpose. There is no right or wrong on someone's personal believes, as much as you would seem to want to dictate what they are. Sorry, if a person needs medical care, they should get it. I don't think we should let someone die in the street because they don't meet the qualifications of your entitlement. But, I am sure you would. Not a citizen, let them bleed out, right?

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While I appreciate the weird projection, the bloviation does not make health care a right. It still is not.

Do you think it is strange you blame President Trump for the failures of Obamacare, the signature Democrat legislation of the last 50 years?

Do you think kickbacks to Big Insurance launched in response to covid are necessary six years after covid?

Democrats want $1.5T for Big Insurance kickbacks ... there are 24M people on Obamacare ... what is that math - how much to Big Insurance PMPY?

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You are stuck on what is right in an election process? Are you 12? What world have you lived in where everything is fair and everyone accepts all the facts? Have you been in many election cycles?

Seriously, they have it now at X dollars, on Trumps watch it will become too expensive, he wont approve it continuing the subsidy, it isn't Trumps fault? How is it not? Approve the subsidy until you get an alternative they have insurance. Don't and they lose it. Rather simple, it is his call whether there is a health care option they can afford.

i disagree with you, basic health/medical care is a right. Everyone is entitled to be treated when ill or hurt. Ot is a basic humane position. i agree with WHO on this one.

And i would bet if hit by a car somewhere you would agree too. You dont have your papers so let you bleed out, that is what you want, right?

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I really am not sure what you're going on about.

Do you support big kickbacks for Big Insurance for Obamacare?

Why do you think covid-related subsidies are needed five years after covid?

Why do you think we need $1.5T for 24M Obamacare members - how much per member per year is that for Big Insurance?

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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GrowlTowel said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Dems must be so stupid to revolt and vote against this regime.

Fun fact, easy to find. For the last 20 or so years, voters with an education beyond high school are more likely to vote dem. The opposite is also true. The less education a voter has the more likely they are to vote Repub.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/partisanship-by-race-ethnicity-and-education/


https://www.americansurveycenter.org/short-reads/a-college-educated-


party/https://www.americansurveycenter.org/short-reads/a-college-educated-party/
nhttps://www.npr.org/2024/10/22/nx-s1-5155899/why-education-is-becoming-a-bigger-divide-in-politics

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Makes you wonder who controls higher education doesn't it.

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Makes me wonder why the more education one has the more likely one is to vote democrat. This board is an excpetion. Most highly educated vote democrat. I am the exception, I have a few degrees and certs and a masters but i dont vote dem. Still think it is an interesting question.

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And it has been answered.

1. With the proliferation of didn't earn it and grievance studies, higher education is not what iit was a generation ago
2. Higher education has become more of a left-wing indoctrination system than education

So none of it is surprising.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

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How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

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Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

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How does Jesus say to treat the poor? Kick their asses out and let them pay for everything so I can buy a new watch?

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Show me where Jesus passed laws. I seem to recall something about 'my kingdom is not of this world'.

FLBear was arguing rights, not ethics

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I thought the distinction was very obvious to an educated person. Health care is not a right. That does not mean a society does not have an ethical obligation to care for the sick. Seems simple. It is part of the overall program of Orwellian abuse of the language the left constantly employs - label ever public program you want a "right" and seemingly it makes it more difficult to argue against. Words and language matter.

I find on these boards people tend to project their strawmen and argue with that vs. actually reading. It's easier to make emotional hysterics than think critically.

FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Republicans lost because Dems won their traditional territories.

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Midterms are going to be bad. 28 is not th given some on here think.

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Agree with you here. Unless the economy turns around soon, Republicans will be a hard-sell in 2028. I like Vance and Rubio, but am not sure they would survive the economic carnage brought on by Trump.

I still like DeSantis. He has been wise to keep this administration at arm's length.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Republicans lost because Dems won their traditional territories.

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Midterms are going to be bad. 28 is not th given some on here think.

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Agree with you here. Unless the economy turns around soon, Republicans will be a hard-sell in 2028. I like Vance and Rubio, but am not sure they would survive the economic carnage brought on by Trump.

I still like DeSantis. He has been wise to keep this administration at arm's length.

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The reality is actually the opposite of what you guys think. What this year's election and the mid-terms will show is that without Trump the GOP struggles to win. This was true in 2022. TDS makes everyone think Trump is the problem; the reality is for the GOP Trump is the solution. Largely because policy wise he is a Clintonian Democrat, Trump uniquely was able to bring together a traditional Democrat coalition and maintain most traditional Republicans - not sure anyone else can do that.

Conservatism always is going to be a harder and harder sell in a society that is less educated and more dependent. The side promising rainbows and unicorns and unlimited goodies always will have an inherent advantage.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Republicans lost because Dems won their traditional territories.

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Midterms are going to be bad. 28 is not th given some on here think.

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Agree with you here. Unless the economy turns around soon, Republicans will be a hard-sell in 2028.

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No matter, they're not planning on giving us a choice.

Oldbear83 said:

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Let's look closer at that claim.

If healthcare is a right, then it would be unconstitutional to not provide it, even if the patient does not pay.

Someone has to pay, though, so are you arguing the doctors and nurses must work for free, and the facilities and materials needed must be free?

Or are you arguing that government must pay, regardless of cost, and therefore taxpayers must foot the bill, including the fraud and waste that comes with such a massive effort?

Specifics matter.

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Geez, guys. I know it is not a right in our current system. I BELIEVE it is a right. It is one area I do think the Government can and should provide, it doesn't have to be full on socialized medicine. It could be a tiered system, but every citizen and person legally here should have basic access. Non-citizens, emergency and then back to where they came from. That is my believe. You guys obviously disagree.