Minneapolis ICE shooting

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Assassin
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Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

There is nothing controversial about it. ICE is there to get the deranged muderers and rapists out of their city. She was trying to stop that by running over an ICE agent and kill him/her. That's it.
"It always seems impossible until it's done." – Nelson Mandela
KaiBear
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Redbrickbear said:

KaiBear said:

Frank Galvin said:

KaiBear said:

Frank Galvin said:

The_barBEARian said:

Frank Galvin said:

canoso said:

Frank Galvin said:

canoso said:

Frank Galvin said:

The_barBEARian said:

Jack Bauer said:

boognish_bear said:

I had to read this like 4 times to try and understand it. Can you virtue signal to yourself?







This post should be pinned to the top of this thread.

This is what ICE has to put up with.

I wouldnt blame them one bit for putting some of these freaks 6ft under.

I agree that it should have been pinned to the top of the thread. It is a great example of good policing. if the agents who advanced on the victim;s car had follewed that example, there wouldn't be a thread.

If the non-victim's car hadn't even been there, there wouldn't be a thread.

Two things can be true.

Without a doubt. However, inasmuch as the driver was not a victim, but rather, having herself decided to be at the scene and disobey the orders of a lawful authority, brought upon herself what happened, only one of these two particular things is true.

Deciding to be on the scene should not be a problem. The scene was a public road. She made a mistake in not obeying the order, but people who make mistakes are not excluded from being victims. The shooter made a mistake being in front of the car. The officer giving orders made a mistake in the qay he addressed the driver. They all made mistakes and they are all victims, although the dirver suffered by far the worst consequence.

Why is it so hard to see that the ICE tactics are inspiring protest and making their job harder to do? Its almost like their leadership wants confrontation; almost as if they view half of Americans as enemies. As if it is really about theater and less about finding the ciminals who are an actual danger to us.


Frank, I recommend you just stay out of ICE's way and let them handle these foreign invaders as they see fit.

You'll be safer, happier, and your family and future descendants will be more prosperous.

For a bunch of people who were outraged that the government was telling them what to do during the pandemic, y'all have become pretty docile.


Pointless deflection


You grew up sheltered; never spent any significant time with the 3rd world culture

( Cancun does not count )

But your ego is far too huge to accept just how dead wrong you are.

If your dumb ***** had been elected president these felons would not have been rounded up. Millions more would have been brought in.

And the US would be in the same situation as England and France……even worse.


Your certitude about my life is like your certidude about everything else. Also dead wrong like you are everywhere else.




Attending Baylor as an undergrad and SMU afterwards is as sheltered as it gets in the Great State of Texas.




Frank knows the mean streets of the Park cities and Waco from the courthouse to Pat Neff hall


No doubt he is a good guy.

However a few weeks living in Socorro, Texas would certainly broaden his horizons.

Though never enough to risk being socially ostracized from the SMU crowd.
ScottS
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Redbrickbear said:

KaiBear said:

Frank Galvin said:

KaiBear said:

Frank Galvin said:

The_barBEARian said:

Frank Galvin said:

canoso said:

Frank Galvin said:

canoso said:

Frank Galvin said:

The_barBEARian said:

Jack Bauer said:

boognish_bear said:

I had to read this like 4 times to try and understand it. Can you virtue signal to yourself?







This post should be pinned to the top of this thread.

This is what ICE has to put up with.

I wouldnt blame them one bit for putting some of these freaks 6ft under.

I agree that it should have been pinned to the top of the thread. It is a great example of good policing. if the agents who advanced on the victim;s car had follewed that example, there wouldn't be a thread.

If the non-victim's car hadn't even been there, there wouldn't be a thread.

Two things can be true.

Without a doubt. However, inasmuch as the driver was not a victim, but rather, having herself decided to be at the scene and disobey the orders of a lawful authority, brought upon herself what happened, only one of these two particular things is true.

Deciding to be on the scene should not be a problem. The scene was a public road. She made a mistake in not obeying the order, but people who make mistakes are not excluded from being victims. The shooter made a mistake being in front of the car. The officer giving orders made a mistake in the qay he addressed the driver. They all made mistakes and they are all victims, although the dirver suffered by far the worst consequence.

Why is it so hard to see that the ICE tactics are inspiring protest and making their job harder to do? Its almost like their leadership wants confrontation; almost as if they view half of Americans as enemies. As if it is really about theater and less about finding the ciminals who are an actual danger to us.


Frank, I recommend you just stay out of ICE's way and let them handle these foreign invaders as they see fit.

You'll be safer, happier, and your family and future descendants will be more prosperous.

For a bunch of people who were outraged that the government was telling them what to do during the pandemic, y'all have become pretty docile.


Pointless deflection


You grew up sheltered; never spent any significant time with the 3rd world culture

( Cancun does not count )

But your ego is far too huge to accept just how dead wrong you are.

If your dumb ***** had been elected president these felons would not have been rounded up. Millions more would have been brought in.

And the US would be in the same situation as England and France……even worse.


Your certitude about my life is like your certidude about everything else. Also dead wrong like you are everywhere else.




Attending Baylor as an undergrad and SMU afterwards is as sheltered as it gets in the Great State of Texas.




Frank knows the mean streets of the Park cities and Waco from the courthouse to Pat Neff hall


I think VH has a song about this.
D. C. Bear
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Assassin said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

There is nothing controversial about it. ICE is there to get the deranged muderers and rapists out of their city. She was trying to stop that by running over an ICE agent and kill him/her. That's it.


There is no conclusive evidence that I have seen as to what she was trying to do in that moment. It is clear, however, that what she, and her female partner, did do was to create a dangerous situation and then make it worse by their actions.
EatMoreSalmon
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D. C. Bear said:

Assassin said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

There is nothing controversial about it. ICE is there to get the deranged muderers and rapists out of their city. She was trying to stop that by running over an ICE agent and kill him/her. That's it.


There is no conclusive evidence that I have seen as to what she was trying to do in that moment. It is clear, however, that what she, and her female partner, did do was to create a dangerous situation and then make it worse by their actions.


This.
Waco1947
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Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

Nah, we can see the videos. You leftists aren't blaming Trump, you aren't kumbayah-ing your way out of this. It is YOUR rhetoric that is causing people in YOUR OWN PARTY to commit terrorism and violence. No one to blame but your evil selves.

Well, the simple answer is NO, you're wrong. Look at Vance, Noem, and Trump's rhetoric for hate and inflammatory comments.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear
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D. C. Bear said:

Assassin said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

There is nothing controversial about it. ICE is there to get the deranged muderers and rapists out of their city. She was trying to stop that by running over an ICE agent and kill him/her. That's it.


There is no conclusive evidence that I have seen as to what she was trying to do in that moment. It is clear, however, that what she, and her female partner, did do was to create a dangerous situation and then make it worse by their actions.

It is clear that she intentionally accelerated into a LEO while looking directly at him. It is conclusive.
Waco1947
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"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.
Wangchung
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Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

Nah, we can see the videos. You leftists aren't blaming Trump, you aren't kumbayah-ing your way out of this. It is YOUR rhetoric that is causing people in YOUR OWN PARTY to commit terrorism and violence. No one to blame but your evil selves.

Well, the simple answer is NO, you're wrong. Look at Vance, Noem, and Trump's rhetoric for hate and inflammatory comments.
Look at their responses to a violent leftist getting shot while trying to murder a federal agent, after harassing them and impeding them all day?
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Wangchung
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Waco1947 said:

"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.
Bull***** Another lie from an unrepentant scumbag.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Waco1947
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Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

Nah, we can see the videos. You leftists aren't blaming Trump, you aren't kumbayah-ing your way out of this. It is YOUR rhetoric that is causing people in YOUR OWN PARTY to commit terrorism and violence. No one to blame but your evil selves.

Well, the simple answer is NO, you're wrong. Look at Vance, Noem, and Trump's rhetoric for hate and inflammatory comments.

Look at their responses to a violent leftist getting shot while trying to murder a federal agent, after harassing them and impeding them all day?

I have seen the video, and there is not a "violent leftist" unless you can prove otherwise; then let me know.
Wangchung
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Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

Nah, we can see the videos. You leftists aren't blaming Trump, you aren't kumbayah-ing your way out of this. It is YOUR rhetoric that is causing people in YOUR OWN PARTY to commit terrorism and violence. No one to blame but your evil selves.

Well, the simple answer is NO, you're wrong. Look at Vance, Noem, and Trump's rhetoric for hate and inflammatory comments.

Look at their responses to a violent leftist getting shot while trying to murder a federal agent, after harassing them and impeding them all day?

I have seen the video, and there is not a "violent leftist" unless you can prove otherwise; then let me know.
Other than the one who tried to run over, and did hit, a federal agent? You forget that part?
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Waco1947
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Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.

Bull***** Another lie from an unrepentant scumbag.

Good God. What a silly 8th-grade response. Got anything other than name-calling? Name-calling generally means "I have no evidence, so I will just use name-calling." So your evidence is .....?
TinFoilHatPreacherBear
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Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

Our vice president has explained that Renee Good was a "deranged leftist"; our president has explained that Renee Good "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." The head of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, has explained that Renee Good had been "stalking and impeding" law enforcement officers throughout the day and that she tried to "weaponize her vehicle" by trying to run over one of them, adding that the ICE agent fired "defensive shots" at someone who appeared to be perpetrating "an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to agents, an act of domestic terrorism."
In fairness, when questioned by CBS News, federal border czar Tom Homan was (at least initially) much more responsible: "The investigation has just started. I'm not gonna make a judgment call on one video when there's a hundred videos out there.… It'd be unprofessional to comment on what I think happened in that situation. Let the investigation play out and hold people accountable based on the investigation.… What good is it to do right now to prejudge the facts of what happened without giving law enforcement professionals, whether it's the FBI or the local police there, give them time to look at all the videos, talk to all of the witnesses, talk to the officers, and make an educated decision on what occurred today?"
To expand on Homan's point, here is the way it is supposed to work: The facts are supposed to drive our beliefs and our actions. That is, first, we perceive facts; second, because of what we perceive, we then form beliefs and decide on actions.
But it doesn't always work that way. I wish the facts were always in the saddle. Instead, as Cass Sunstein recently wrote, our beliefs and actions are often driven by "the immense power of narrative, and in particular the immense power of narratives in constitutional and political life." Sunstein was describing the way that narratives drive Supreme Court jurisprudence, but his point has broader application.
I have many "friends" on social media who are eager to contribute to, or shape, the narrative of Renee Good's death. It is a conversational maelstrom. One might describe it as an argument over what conclusions we might draw from the evidence we have. One might describe it more accurately as an argument between many people, where everyone wants, very badly, the narrative they describe to be true. This is so whether that narrative describes (for instance) a good cop defending himself from a murderous driver who deserved to be punished for her refusal to submit to lawful authority or (for instance) a woman fleeing from masked gunmen who assaulted her and then shot at her repeatedly through the side window of her car.
Many of the participants in this many-sided argument do not seem to be letting facts determine their account of things; instead, it appears that they start with a narrative and then hunt for facts and theories that support it. (Some of them do, anyway: when Secretary Noem decries the violence directed against ICE officers and then explains that publicly videotaping their work is one such species of violence, I worry that she believes that citizens who want to make a record of what they see in public should be discouraged from doing so.) In short, Cass Sunstein has identified something important here: the propagation of narratives is a central part of political life.
So what should we say about what really happened? Perhaps the wisest course, at this point, is to exercise a bit of humility." Dan Greenberg, Cato Institue

Nah, we can see the videos. You leftists aren't blaming Trump, you aren't kumbayah-ing your way out of this. It is YOUR rhetoric that is causing people in YOUR OWN PARTY to commit terrorism and violence. No one to blame but your evil selves.

Well, the simple answer is NO, you're wrong. Look at Vance, Noem, and Trump's rhetoric for hate and inflammatory comments.

Look at their responses to a violent leftist getting shot while trying to murder a federal agent, after harassing them and impeding them all day?

I have seen the video, and there is not a "violent leftist" unless you can prove otherwise; then let me know.

Other than the one who tried to run over, and did hit, a federal agent? You forget that part?

Yep, she literally and deliberately accelerated into an LEO and the left wants to pretend that part didn't happen. They are liars.
midgett
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lol. Obama said 1/2 million. How about 20+ million?
Wangchung
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Waco1947 said:

Wangchung said:

Waco1947 said:

"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.

Bull***** Another lie from an unrepentant scumbag.

Good God. What a silly 8th-grade response. Got anything other than name-calling? Name-calling generally means "I have no evidence, so I will just use name-calling." So your evidence is .....?
Sorry, but your trolling is so terrible that your posts deserve nothing but derision and heckling. You have been shown irrefutable evidence that this woman was harassing ICE agents, not in any fear, and saw the agent before hitting her accelerator and striking the agent with her SUV. In the face of that irrefutable evidence you are here making up your own facts and then have the audacity to wonder why your posts are laughed at and you are disregarded as a moron? Incredible.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Harrison Bergeron
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I am old enough to remember when the Democrats had "anti-government" groups listed as among the biggest threats to homeland security. They sure seem to support anti-government terrorists now ... odd.

What kind of psychopath takes her six-year-old child to an anti-government terrorism even (and does not even have him in a proper car seat).

I am sorry she was killed, but this chick is the poster child for radical, mouthbreathing Karen.
D. C. Bear
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Waco1947 said:

"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.


The "Trump-is-a-Nazi" rhetoric predates law enforcement actions, so it is not possible for "ICE tactics" to be the initial cause of the rhetoric.

Nevertheless, rhetoric is not violence, no matter what the left tries to tell us, and Federal officials are wrong to characterize it as such.

"Inflammatory" language is protected speech. To be illegal, it has to meet the Brandenburg test. Politicians making vague statements does not meet that standard. It was rhetoric, not the tactics of law enforcement (which are somewhat routine tactics), that have led some to believe the federal law enforcement officers are the functional equivalent of the SS.
Harrison Bergeron
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Waco1947 said:

"I would recommend that the Justice Department state that the inflammatory language by elected officials which causes criminal activity and/or the refusal of elected officials to work with federal law enforcement or to hamper federal law enforcement, will be prosecuted as a seditious act. Something has to stop this hatred of ICE and other agents simply doing their job as these elected officials call them Nazis, Gestapo, tyrants to turn citizens against them."

This is really a twisted view of reality. ICE tactics create the rhetoric, not the other way around.


Holy Smokes. You're calling for democrats and their anti-government street thugs to be arrested? Wow - never thought I would see the day.
Jack Bauer
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Jack Bauer
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***?

Jack Bauer
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"She was in the wrong place at the wrong time..."

Jack Bauer
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BaylorFTW
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Jack Bauer said:



Treason and once again coming from another out of control white liberal woman. They keep thinking they are above the law. They are not.
canoso
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165 years ago it was cannon fire directed at Fort Sumter.

Today it's these leftist rabblerousers posing as elected officials inciting violence against duly constituted federal authority.
Jack Bauer
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What is it with white women? Do they think they are saviors sent by the Winter Solstice spirit?

Jack Bauer
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People Magazine??!!!!

Why don't we put her on the cover of Vogue!!!

canoso
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Jack Bauer said:

What is it with white women? Do they think they are saviors sent by the Winter Solstice spirit?



It's really sad to see another one headed in the same direction. Extremely learning-challenged to say the least. She has a victim mentality, but everyone makes their own decisions and experiences the consequences.
Jack Bauer
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Jack Bauer
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gtownbear
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Pure nonsense. ICE Agents are doing the job they were hired to do. They are hampered by radicals who evidently care nothing about following laws and are intent on disrupting those enforcing laws on the books. Period.
Forest Bueller III
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cms186 said:

Whilst she probably shouldnt have tried to drive away, its blindingly obvious that she wasnt trying to murder any ICE officers, by the time the officer draws his weapon he is already by the side of the car and in no danger at all, its a really dumb and unexcusable escalation to fire his weapon in that situation and trying to paint the victim as a Domestic Terrorist is pathetic.

I agree with this. Also, the narrative she had followed them all day for hours and hours I don't buy.

She had just dropped her kid off at school. The shooting happened in the 9am to 9:30 am range. One eye witness was making breakfast across the street when she heard the commotion and came outside.

Should she have tried to escape them, no she should have complied.

Should the Officer posted himself in front of a vehicle, no that is against policy, he should have stayed to the side of the vehicle.

Should he have fired 2 shots into her head at point blank through the drivers side open window after any threat at all had passed him, absolutely not.

Should he have exclaimed "****ing *****" after those two shots emptied into her head, it just showed this was an emotional reaction, not a tactical reaction.
Wangchung
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Forest Bueller III said:

cms186 said:

Whilst she probably shouldnt have tried to drive away, its blindingly obvious that she wasnt trying to murder any ICE officers, by the time the officer draws his weapon he is already by the side of the car and in no danger at all, its a really dumb and unexcusable escalation to fire his weapon in that situation and trying to paint the victim as a Domestic Terrorist is pathetic.

I agree with this. Also, the narrative she had followed them all day for hours and hours I don't buy.

She had just dropped her kid off at school. The shooting happened in the 9am to 9:30 am range. One eye witness was making breakfast across the street when she heard the commotion and came outside.

Should she have tried to escape them, no she should have complied.

Should the Officer posted himself in front of a vehicle, no that is against policy, he should have stayed to the side of the vehicle.

Should he have fired 2 shots into her head at point blank through the drivers side open window after any threat at all had passed him, absolutely not.

Should he have exclaimed "****ing *****" after those two shots emptied into her head, it just showed this was an emotional reaction, not a tactical reaction.
She had been in that street blowing her horn while her dyke wife blew a whistle for over 3 minutes before that confrontation happened and she hit a federal agent while trying to flee arrest. She looked right at the officer through her windshield before flooring it and hitting him.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Oldbear83
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Wangchung said:

Forest Bueller III said:

cms186 said:

Whilst she probably shouldnt have tried to drive away, its blindingly obvious that she wasnt trying to murder any ICE officers, by the time the officer draws his weapon he is already by the side of the car and in no danger at all, its a really dumb and unexcusable escalation to fire his weapon in that situation and trying to paint the victim as a Domestic Terrorist is pathetic.

I agree with this. Also, the narrative she had followed them all day for hours and hours I don't buy.

She had just dropped her kid off at school. The shooting happened in the 9am to 9:30 am range. One eye witness was making breakfast across the street when she heard the commotion and came outside.

Should she have tried to escape them, no she should have complied.

Should the Officer posted himself in front of a vehicle, no that is against policy, he should have stayed to the side of the vehicle.

Should he have fired 2 shots into her head at point blank through the drivers side open window after any threat at all had passed him, absolutely not.

Should he have exclaimed "****ing *****" after those two shots emptied into her head, it just showed this was an emotional reaction, not a tactical reaction.

She had been in that street blowing her horn while her dyke wife blew a whistle for over 3 minutes before that confrontation happened and she hit a federal agent while trying to flee arrest. She looked right at the officer through her windshield before flooring it and hitting him.

Leftists will always ignore facts in this kind of situation.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Forest Bueller III
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Wangchung said:

Forest Bueller III said:

cms186 said:

Whilst she probably shouldnt have tried to drive away, its blindingly obvious that she wasnt trying to murder any ICE officers, by the time the officer draws his weapon he is already by the side of the car and in no danger at all, its a really dumb and unexcusable escalation to fire his weapon in that situation and trying to paint the victim as a Domestic Terrorist is pathetic.

I agree with this. Also, the narrative she had followed them all day for hours and hours I don't buy.

She had just dropped her kid off at school. The shooting happened in the 9am to 9:30 am range. One eye witness was making breakfast across the street when she heard the commotion and came outside.

Should she have tried to escape them, no she should have complied.

Should the Officer posted himself in front of a vehicle, no that is against policy, he should have stayed to the side of the vehicle.

Should he have fired 2 shots into her head at point blank through the drivers side open window after any threat at all had passed him, absolutely not.

Should he have exclaimed "****ing *****" after those two shots emptied into her head, it just showed this was an emotional reaction, not a tactical reaction.

She had been in that street blowing her horn while her dyke wife blew a whistle for over 3 minutes before that confrontation happened and she hit a federal agent while trying to flee arrest. She looked right at the officer through her windshield before flooring it and hitting him.

The first part of your post is correct. They were messing with Ice agents. They should not have been.

The second part of your post is absolutely not a certainty. She accelerated after she slumped forward dead.
She cut her tires sharply away from him as well. That is clear as day with the correct angle being shown.

 
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