President Trump announces military strikes on Iran: Operation Epic Fury

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303Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

303Bear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" So when is this internal uprising of disaffected and oppressed Iranian going to rise up and take back the country?"

To coin a phrase. that's not how this works.

The hardliners who ran Iran since 1979 made sure there would be no one to oppose them domestically. Other Muslim parties were purged, and secular leaders were expelled or purged wherever found. Ironically similar to Communists, the Islamic Republican Party itself (which brought the Ayatollah into Iran) was destroyed in 1987 to eliminate any possible rival to the Ayatollah.

Article 110 of Iran's constitution gives the Supreme Leader power to name the Guardian Council, who in turn name the Assembly of Experts, who in turn name the new Supreme Leader when the former dies. Iran does not have elections for the Supreme Leader.

Over the years, student groups originally founded to show devotion to theocracy have evolved to dissident groups demanding power to some degree. The Republican Guard has been unable to suppress them completely, and these groups show up from time to time, such as the Arab Spring in 2009, 2011, and of course now.

A number of parties are active in Iran now, including the National Front, the Constitutionalist Party, the Tudeh Party, People's Mujahedin Organization of Iran (MEK), Iranian People's Fedai Guerrillas (IPFG), Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan, and the Qashqai Freedom Path Party(QAYI).

None of these groups is particularly pro-US, but a number of them have been receiving US aid because they help provide intelligence information on Iran conditions, and because it serves the US interest for the Ayatollahs to have internal dissent.

The most likely 'good' outcome in Iran for the near future would likely include restoration of elections, and multiple political parties in Iran, even those which publicly oppose the US, because it would weaken unity of action in Iran. The US has made quiet deals in the past with regimes which disavowed supporting US goals, while de facto doing so.


If overthrow and change of regime are the goal (as I have heard from a number of sources, including this board), why are you talking about the succession mechanisms in the current Iranian constitution? This succession has happened several times since we began bombing and the regime, as it were, is still very much in power.

We were told in January that there were millions in the streets ready to remove the Islamist government, and if we just would strike the top and remove the leaders, there could be another revolution. We have been doing that for over a month now and there has been no movement toward replacement of the governmental system or an overthrow. So was January exaggerated, or is there really not an organized opposition beyond protesting and the best we can hope for is a power vacuum where the most brutal will end up being the replacement?

If the alternate groups are still not pro-America (and we know they aren't pro-Israel), then what are we doing at all that we could not have accomplished by further strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities? Why do we need to bomb them "back to the Stone Age"? If we replace bad with slightly less bad, what did we actually accomplish? Especially if there is the chance to destabilize the religion and have an even more hardline, anti-west group rise up in its place (as ISIS did for a time in parts of Iraq and Syria)? How does the US benefit from that long term? Israel is using this as an opportunity to push into Hezbollah controlled areas to secure their own territory and increase land area (though the campaign seems to be going worse than they anticipated so far), so if we go boots on the ground, it looks like we will go alone.

I am and will remain completely opposed to that.

What happened in January was that a few thousand CIA/Mossad stooges went around committing terrorist acts and trying to incite chaos until they got taken out. If we were running a halfway competent regime change operation, that would have been the time for US forces to attack. Now we seem to be making it up as we go along.


I largely dismissed that line of thinking a few months ago, but it seems more and more plausible as this conflict goes on. We have done what was "begged" of us to do just 6-8 weeks prior to the first strikes, yet there has been no popular movement to change the government from within. So far there has been 0 evidence an internal group with any size or influence is emerging to try and fill any power vacuum created by the bombing of the heads of government.

And I don't see how destroying power, transportation and other infrastructure helps our cause. Maybe long term the people turn against the government in an attempt to stop the bombs falling, but it is a stretch to believe they would immediately embrace the source of the bombs as well.
ATL Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

I must go back to my point that what you hear in the media has very little in common with what is actually being said and done in the region.

Just as an example, do you really believe Israel's planes are invisible to, say, Jordan and Saudi Arabia? it's very convenient for Middle East countries to publicly denounce the Jewish state, while privately cooperate to address a far more dangerous threat.

The Islamist threat had indeed been around since Muhammed, but it's important to understand that various threats have been faced before. The Crusade Wars in response to the Muslim invasion of Europe and the various Mahdi uprisings are just the high points, yet there have been many efforts to oppose the bloody rule of hardline Muslims. There are rational regimes in the region who can lead the effort to bring Iran out of the bloodbath.


I tend to lean into the reality that we are more than willing to have a beneficial relationship with hardcore Islamist regimes, and those that work are typically built on mutual economic interest. Iran fits the bill as one that has the type of resources we can build economic interests around without trying to root out regimes or Islamism. Trump took the steps needed by changing their deterrence calculus. I believe that's the leverage and victory that allows a fundamental change in our relationship without having to fundamentally try and change Iranian social and political culture.
boognish_bear
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303Bear
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Every accusation an admission. Plenty of my responses have addressed what you said. You dismiss them and then make new, different points, then claim victory.

Your last post was effectively an outline of what you hope is happening based on the fact that it has sort of happened before elsewhere. You do this while ignoring what the administration has said multiple times. If you dislike what the president has said, your quibble is with the Whitehouse, not me.
Oldbear83
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Has it occurred to you that we may be creating demand for a company to go into Iran and rebuild its infrastructure, especially power and water?

Creates a viable shadow framework for moving forward.
J.R.
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I smell a Big TACO coming from Piggy on bombing and making life a living hell and bomb desalination and civilian infrastructure which is another War Crime. Gimme some salsa. I'm riding fat boy up and down. Viva la Donnie!
boognish_bear
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Oldbear83
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** sigh **

I hoped for a constructive discussion.

But sure, have fun with your tantrum.
303Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

Has it occurred to you that we may be creating demand for a company to go into Iran and rebuild its infrastructure, especially power and water?

Creates a viable shadow framework for moving forward.


Now you're just ranting.

I asked this weeks ago and no one answered, what does this look like in real life? Who pays for it? I have no interest in paying to rebuild a country half a world away after we eliminate its currently functioning infrastructure.
303Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

** sigh **

I hoped for a constructive discussion.

But sure, have fun with your tantrum.


You're back to appeals to ridicule and emotion. You seem to fall into that once you have painted yourself into a corner.

It's fine if you don't actually want to engage in salient points. Support the war, enjoy the bombs falling, hope this doesn't wreck the economy for minimal tangible benefit. Godspeed. We disagree and that's fine.
Oldbear83
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Not ranting at all (check your posts if you want to see that), but offering some perspective.

Oldbear83
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My points are completely salient. You not liking them does not change that.

But yeah, all you do is whine and moan, and that's not moving the discussion forward.

So have a good night.
Porteroso
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whiterock said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Your point is idiotic. Muslims have been killing infidels since 622ad. Because they were infidels.

We don't have to attack them for them to hate us. They hate us because we exist.

Marxist oppression narratives are poison every bit as toxic as neverTrumpism. And you've got both.

Marxist oppression? Your head is just not screwed on right. You just go through some list of dismissals every time your narrative of forever war is challenged.
303Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

Not ranting at all (check your posts if you want to see that), but offering some perspective.




Making up a scenario which has no supporting evidence to provide a post hoc justification for bombing Iranian infrastructure isn't perspective, it's hopes and dreams.
303Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

My points are completely salient. You not liking them does not change that.

But yeah, all you do is whine and moan, and that's not moving the discussion forward.

So have a good night.


I neither like nor dislike your points, Im simply curious what you base them on in the current situation and how a return to free elections in Iran (somehow) within the same existing constitutional framework with a less anti-American government (I) is somehow a net win for the US and (II) flanges with what the administration has said multiple times. In the first post I responded to you expressly mention the Iranian constitution, implying you think all of this can be accomplished without a ground up reorganization. You provide no support for this other than a vague reference to "it's happened before".

I believe this is the third time I have asked the same question. Instead of respond, you resort to logical fallacies to justify not engaging while actually perfectly encapsulating the problem: no one knows what the actual goal of this conflict is.
Porteroso
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.
Redbrickbear
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EatMoreSalmon
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Realitybites said:

whiterock said:



How long has North Korea had nukes?

How many have they launched in that time?

Do you think that our participation in Israel's attack on Iran is going to help or hurt the cause of nonproliferation?

Help

China has helped to keep NK under control

NK may be afraid their missile delivery will screw up and drop a warhead on their head... or on China.
EatMoreSalmon
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Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.
ATL Bear
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Redbrickbear said:


I don't believe that issue has ever been in question. Now that they're as far from being able to produce a nuclear weapon as they've ever been, it raises the question of what the mission is creeping toward.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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EatMoreSalmon said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Realitybites said:

whiterock said:



How long has North Korea had nukes?

How many have they launched in that time?

Do you think that our participation in Israel's attack on Iran is going to help or hurt the cause of nonproliferation?

Help

China has helped to keep NK under control

NK may be afraid their missile delivery will screw up and drop a warhead on their head... or on China.

Here is a fun fact. The population of the state of Texas is about 4 million greater than the population of North Korea. Little Kim is not a threat.
Call it a tax, the people are outraged! Call it a tariff, the people get out their checkbooks and wave their American flags!!!
boognish_bear
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Redbrickbear
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


When they stop killing each other and unite…it's usually bad news for other regions since they invade to conquer them




Porteroso
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.

They rarely attacked outside the Middle East, Africa, Southern Europe, throughout history. A few major excursions, sure.
The_barBEARian
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whiterock
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Realitybites said:

whiterock said:



How long has North Korea had nukes?

How many have they launched in that time?

Do you think that our participation in Israel's attack on Iran is going to help or hurt the cause of nonproliferation?

So you are OK with the Iranian mullah regime having nukes?

How many nutjob dictators do you want to have nukes capable of striking the USA?
How many nuclear-capable proxies does China get to have?
If NoKo launces nukes at our Pacific coast, are you going to retaliate against China?
Or are you going to just settle for trading Pyongyang for Portland?
If you don't like that dilemma, then don't let NoKo have nukes.
Oh. Wait. Previous admins listed to you.

Look at what the mullahs are doing, literally....the Seoul Hostage problem*......using the threat of massive indiscriminate damage via conventional weapons and interdiction of international shipping, attacking most of the world in order to freeze its regional adversaries into not acting. The Pyongyang regime has the saving grace of being driven by kleptocracy. Same cannot be said about the mullahs. They are a death cult. We are watching it real time.

What a perfect example of how ignorant, shallow, and dangerous isolationism is. Every single decision is to define away real threats and retreat into the blissful lie that no one would ever do us harm as long as we leave them alone.

Why don't you let all the criminals out of jail? They're just oppressed.
Why don't you let one and all cross our border whenever they want to? Borders are oppression.
Don't kill that rattlesnake. Let him in! He'll leave us alone if we leave him alone.

Thank God we have a POTUS who is willing to ignore dumb-arses and take the heat to eliminate the threat of an Iranian mullah regime from having nukes. It will serve as a lesson for others.....


*since you are unaware of this detail, Seoul is within conventional artillery range of the NoKo border. So every single action one might take to counter or deter NoKo runs the risk of putting 10m people into a shooting gallery.
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


When they stop killing each other and unite…it's usually bad news for other regions since they invade to conquer them






I wonder who attacked the Umayyids in 750ad to force them to spread their rule like that. They would have never attacked anyone just for the sake of imperial expansion. In fact, no regime in history has ever engaged in imperial expansion. Every empire that's ever been born resulted from of self-defense against an unprovoked attack. Why, the Mongols raided all the way to Poland just to teach those greedy poles to leave Mongolia alone.

(reductio ad absurdum)
FLBear5630
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


Just curious what Iranian attacks have occurred on the US outside the ME? Maybe I missed something. Israel, definitely. US proper? Saudii they attacked us 9/11. Iran?
LIB,MR BEARS
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FLBear5630 said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


Just curious what Iranian attacks have occurred on the US outside the ME? Maybe I missed something. Israel, definitely. US proper? Saudii they attacked us 9/11. Iran?


Be nice to the punk and he'll be nice to you.

or

Don't make eye contact. Maybe they want notice you.

whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630 said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


Just curious what Iranian attacks have occurred on the US outside the ME? Maybe I missed something. Israel, definitely. US proper? Saudii they attacked us 9/11. Iran?

I see. You are ok with people attacking us everywhere except here at home. They can run us out of anywhere in the world they want to and we are obligated to take it because we are imperialist oppressors and the mullahs are just "austere clerics" who mean no harm to us at all (so long as we say & do as they instruct). Got it. They can abduct American diplomats on the street, skin them alive, hang them, blow up our embassies and....well.....the USA needs to be taught contrition, after all. And of course if we just give the Iranians a wide berth, they can be completely trusted to not interfere with our trade and diplomatic relationships. Honorable fellow, those mullahs.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

Doc Holliday said:




Trump is so dumb. We are ensuring the next generation of terrorists truly hates America.

I cannot believe the cheerleaders here for mass murder and destruction.

How idiotic!
Has there ever been a generation of terrorists that did not hate America???
If you are not cheering on the US then you are a cheerleader for the Iranian regime, terrorists who have been bass murdering people for 47 years. In January of this year they slaughtered up to 45k of their own people for peacefully protesting against their tyranny.

People on the Left who try to take the moral high ground always end up looking like fools.

To answer the question, yes there have been many generation of Iranians that didn't hate America, and were not terrorists. With each new generation of Middle Easterners, we renew their hatred of America since the 70s. It doesn't have to be that way.

I think we are plenty willing to sacrifice Americans simply because it keeps the war machine going. Simple as that.

What is idiotic is your post which assumes there will always be terrorists in the Middle East that want to kill Americans.

Correct! We need to get back to ( insert peaceful time in ME here).

Porteroso, when was that time?

False question. It's one thing for the Middle Easterners to want to war with their neighbors. It's another for us to keep killing so many of them, or overthrowing their governments, that they want to go half a world away to blow themselves up amongst Americans.

I'm ok with crippling their missile program, or removing their nuclear material from the equation. What is bad, is that this was so poorly thought through that we had to beg allies to join our war, and now that they haven't, we have decided that leaving, having accomplished very little in the grand scheme of things, while they control the Strait of Hormuz and might start taxing it, or stay a bit longer and bomb civilian infrastructure, are our 2 options.

It's such an insane ****show, and we might have to just reload and do it again in 10 years, which should be entirely unacceptable. They are like 1 good physicist away from creating nuclear weapons, and we apparently went to war with them, not to remove that threat, but simply to close and reopen the Strait of Hormuz.

All these posts about "dealing with the threat that is Iran...." we haven't gotten close, and it looks like we won't for some time. People reveling in mass destruction and death just irk me, whether they are terrorists or whiterock.

When did ME countries not attack outside of the ME? Maybe before the Egyptian civilization?

The Middle East is where the most lucrative trade routes have been for thousands of years.


Just curious what Iranian attacks have occurred on the US outside the ME? Maybe I missed something. Israel, definitely. US proper? Saudii they attacked us 9/11. Iran?

I see. You are ok with people attacking us everywhere except here at home. They can run us out of anywhere in the world they want to and we are obligated to take it because we are imperialist oppressors and the mullahs are just "austere clerics" who mean no harm to us at all (so long as we say & do as they instruct). Got it. They can abduct American diplomats on the street, skin them alive, hang them, blow up our embassies and....well.....the USA needs to be taught contrition, after all. And of course if we just give the Iranians a wide berth, they can be completely trusted to not interfere with our trade and diplomatic relationships. Honorable fellow, those mullahs.

No, I asked a question. Can you give an answer with specifics, rather than generalities or personal challenges? When we bombed Libya, it was tied to Lockerbee 103. When we went into Afghanistan is tied to 9/11. When we went into Kuwait, it was directly tied to an invasion. There was a direct connection. What do you have on Iran? So far, we get lectures on old history, personal attacks or generalities.

And to answer your question about everywhere but here. Didn't MAGA and Trump, in other words you, get elected on the US NOT being t he world's policeman? Now, we are going around the world correcting wrongs? That is ok?
Sam Lowry
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When you see nuclear weapons proliferating around the world, understand that the blame is squarely on your head and those of your fellow neocons. It was you who used the nuclear issue as a pretext for imperial aggression and, in the process, destroyed a nonproliferation framework that took a generation to build. You people are a menace to every life on the planet.
LIB,MR BEARS
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LIB,MR BEARS said:



I don't think this part has been talked about enough. The rescued WSO was a Full Colonel. His next rank is General. The dude has some classified information in his head.

Can you imagine what he would have gone through had he been captured? Can you imagine the win for Iran, China and Russia had he been captured?

I think it is safe to say that, at a minimum, China would have participated in his interrogation. Can you imagine the issues that would have arisen between the US and China.

The rescue is huge on its own but even more so because of what it could have become had it failed.
D. C. Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

When you see nuclear weapons proliferating around the world, understand that the blame is squarely on your head and those of your fellow neocons. It was you who used the nuclear issue as a pretext for imperial aggression and, in the process, destroyed a nonproliferation framework that took a generation to build. You people are a menace to every life on the planet.


"Imperial aggression" is an interesting term. You sound like a Soviet propagandist.

When I see nuclear weapons proliferating around the world, I see nations acting in what they see as their own best interests. North Korea. India. Pakistan. Israel. South Africa*

*The only nation that dismantled its own nuclear weapons program.
The_barBEARian
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Many Americans do not want the enemy Israeli regime having nuclear weapons either that they have used to blackmail our country since the Yom Kippur war.

When are we going to bomb Israel until they dismantle their nuclear program?
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