TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

You continue to make claims with absolutely no evidence.


Not how real Science works, but very consistent with your lab cult behavior.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Do you frequently compare poetry to science?

Do you also beat the wind, swing at shadows?

Your evidence for not flood and s getting weaker by the day.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

FLBear5630 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

---

Keep in mind as well that global travel was not a thing through most of human history. A major flood affecting the entire middle east would likely be seen as affecting the whole world as it was known then.

'Literal', after all, translates to 'as written', not 'satisfies the most bitter skeptic'.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

---

Keep in mind as well that global travel was not a thing through most of human history. A major flood affecting the entire middle east would likely be seen as affecting the whole world as it was known then.

'Literal', after all, translates to 'as written', not 'satisfies the most bitter skeptic'.

---

I get that and I agree there have been floods and the Ark story, like all is based on a truth but I can't go with all the details and the timeframes in the Bible as a history book. I view it as a philosophical, theological book using stories to convey messages. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the Bible.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

---

Keep in mind as well that global travel was not a thing through most of human history. A major flood affecting the entire middle east would likely be seen as affecting the whole world as it was known then.

'Literal', after all, translates to 'as written', not 'satisfies the most bitter skeptic'.

---

I get that and I agree there have been floods and the Ark story, like all is based on a truth but I can't go with all the details and the timeframes in the Bible as a history book. I view it as a philosophical, theological book using stories to convey messages. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the Bible.

---

Sorry, 'most bitter skeptic' was not meant at you, FLBear.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

---

I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

---

"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

---

It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

---

Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

---

So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

---

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

---

You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

---

It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

---

But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

---

You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

---

??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

---

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

---

I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

---

Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

---

Keep in mind as well that global travel was not a thing through most of human history. A major flood affecting the entire middle east would likely be seen as affecting the whole world as it was known then.

'Literal', after all, translates to 'as written', not 'satisfies the most bitter skeptic'.

---

I get that and I agree there have been floods and the Ark story, like all is based on a truth but I can't go with all the details and the timeframes in the Bible as a history book. I view it as a philosophical, theological book using stories to convey messages. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the Bible.

---

Sorry, 'most bitter skeptic' was not meant at you, FLBear.

---

No issues, just talking about how the Bible fits in.

But, Catholics have had a different view on the Bible than Protestants, I view Sola Scriptura as the Protestant version of the Catholic's Mary. Too much emphasis on something meant to compliment the Jesus message, not overcome it.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

I don't see why the two have to be an either/or. Science is how we explain the Universe, faith is for what science can't explain. If there was proof, faith would not matter.

Many scientist are religious as well.

IMO, Either you believe or you don't. If you don't maybe you need to go on a TV Evangelist show, say you accept Jesus as your savior (you don't even have to try and change, after all we are all sinners), write a check and you will be saved. OR talk to Tarp on this site he know what God wants and will not be shy about telling you and lasso you in...

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I agree with what you have said, except that faith is belief in a supernatural/mythical explanation that resides in the ever shrinking domain of what science has yet to explain.

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"Ever shrinking" ? You mean how the more we learn about a single cell the more learn that we don't know?

One step forward, twenty steps back.

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It's one more step forward (not backward), one more step in knowledge of a cell, which moves it from the religious assigned domain of the supernatural. It is science finding new territory for exploring the unknown. Every step forward in knowledge reduces the domain where religion (primitive myths and supernatural beliefs) resides.

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Using your bible contradictions mantra, you say "ever shrinking" and "new territory" together.
You apply standards that you refuse to use yourself.

Hypocrite much?

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So far, everything we know to be true about the universe has come from science, and nothing from religion. Relgious beliefs and claims about the universe have failed and give way to science.

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What scientific answers do you expect to find in the poetry of Psalms or of Genesis 1?

What scientific answers do you expect to find in the prophetic writings of Daniel?

When Christ taught in parables, did you expect to find answers to equations?

When Christ said He is a door, a gate, light, did you expect Him to change his physical makeup?

I've no clue what you would make of the Apocalyptic literature of Revelation.

Is there a reason why you hold the Bible to a totally irrational "standard" that you'd never be caught dead holding another piece of literature to?

Could it be that you've moved so far beyond sceptic that you are a totally unreasonable cynic?

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You need to go argue that point with your fellow fundamentalists. I agree the Bible isn't a science book. Fiction, yes, maybe science fiction.

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It's amazing how this piece of "fiction" has never been proven wrong historically, geographically or in prophesy.

You can believe it or not but you either have to admit it's amazing or that your belief of amazing creations and biblical accuracy stretches credulity to its limits.

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But it has been proven wrong. Start with the creation myth, that was adapted from older culture.

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You've no other alternative except unproven theories.

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??? The evidence of reality disproves either of the two conflicting creation myths in the Bible.

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no evidence from you that really contradicts anything in Scripture, but you do you.

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I previously said the creation myth. Science completely contradicts both creation myths that are found in Genesis. Add to that the flood and the Eden account down to the flood. But you mystics want to hold on to your mysticism.

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Serious question for the literal Bible crowd. If Jesus spoke in parables to get a message across wouldn't it seem logical that the Bible use that mechanism in other areas? Such as a creation myth or a great flood that maybe impacted one area of their known world but not the entire world, etc... Doesn't it serve the same purpose? That God created the world or that wickedness brings about bad things? I don't get the Bible has to be a literal history book for it to have meaning for faith?

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Keep in mind as well that global travel was not a thing through most of human history. A major flood affecting the entire middle east would likely be seen as affecting the whole world as it was known then.

'Literal', after all, translates to 'as written', not 'satisfies the most bitter skeptic'.

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I get that and I agree there have been floods and the Ark story, like all is based on a truth but I can't go with all the details and the timeframes in the Bible as a history book. I view it as a philosophical, theological book using stories to convey messages. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the Bible.

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Sorry, 'most bitter skeptic' was not meant at you, FLBear.

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No issues, just talking about how the Bible fits in.

But, Catholics have had a different view on the Bible than Protestants, I view Sola Scriptura as the Protestant version of the Catholic's Mary. Too much emphasis on something meant to compliment the Jesus message, not overcome it.

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Not satisfied with the Bible.
Not satisfied with Catholicism
Accuses Luther of creating own religion
Creates own religion

Have I got this right?

Close.

Catholicism I practice because I feel most comfortable there.

Bible, is a great book of theology and stories to teach God's word. Highly like it. Do I worship it above all else, like Protestants? No. It is a part of the bigger picture, that is all. It didn't even come around until almost 500 years after Christ's death.

Luther, yeah not a fan. Could be Lutheran in-laws, so a bit biased.

Believe our relationship is personal between you and God. So own religion, sort of. If you don't personally own it, you are nothing more than a sheep and that is not true believe. That is doing what you are told. In my opinion, if you truly believe and understand there are going to be things you don't like, agree with or understand how they got included. I can't stand Paul, he drives me nuts either telling us what to do or hitting us up for money. His stuff is low on my list of likes. That is human nature. Anyone that tells you they believe and like everything exactly as stated is a politician, a liar or an idiot. That sums up my views on religion.

What do you have issues with in your denomination? Or do you just sit there and smile thinking about something else all service?

FLBear5630 said:

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Close.

Catholicism I practice because I feel most comfortable there.

Bible, is a great book of theology and stories to teach God's word. Highly like it. Do I worship it above all else, like Protestants? No. It is a part of the bigger picture, that is all. It didn't even come around until almost 500 years after Christ's death.

Luther, yeah not a fan. Could be Lutheran in-laws, so a bit biased.

Believe our relationship is personal between you and God. So own religion, sort of. If you don't personally own it, you are nothing more than a sheep and that is not true believe. That is doing what you are told. In my opinion, if you truly believe and understand there are going to be things you don't like, agree with or understand how they got included. I can't stand Paul, he drives me nuts either telling us what to do or hitting us up for money. His stuff is low on my list of likes. That is human nature. Anyone that tells you they believe and like everything exactly as stated is a politician, a liar or an idiot. That sums up my views on religion.

What do you have issues with in your denomination? Or do you just sit there and smile thinking about something else all service?

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I'm not aware of any Protestants that "worship it above all else" regarding the Bible. I, we, if I can speak for others, worship Jesus Christ as our savior.

The books of the Bible were around well before your 500 year date.

Luther was booted from the RC church, he didn't choose to leave on his own. He saw wrongs and tried to correct them. The New Testament is full of warnings to the church about false teachings, a separate gospel and sin entering. I think those warnings were for all believers so, why anyone would believe any church, including the RC church would not be the target of that evil, I don't understand.

If, you believe the Bible is the word of God, then I don't see how it can be used like a Chinese menu.
If you believe it's just a collection of cool writings, then apply what you like and discard the rest. That is the point at which I think "christians" make themselves their god.

Issues:
church has become less about teaching and worshipping and more about entertainment.
the lack of understanding what we have faith in. More than 70% of kids walk away from their Christian faith in their freshman year of college. They cannot defend or even describe what their faith is in. They do/repeat what they've been hearing on Sunday mornings since they were kids without putting any thought in it.

Thoughts in service:
more places than it should be, task, lunch, work, upcoming trip, remembering a verse to throw it in someone's face on Sic'em - all sorts of things that have little to nothing to do with my walk with Christ.

Ah, the key phrase "my walk in Christ". We are on the same page.


As a human I don't get or believe everything and a lot of the timeline makes little sense in the greater scheme. I try to help people in my day to day life. I fail at giving to the homeless going in and out of Church, feel hypocritical. Part of being human.

I bring up some of my human questions, failings, or shortcomings to prompt conversation on something I think is important. The Apostles did not believe they "got" it, Peter was constantly fighting his internal fights. Thomas, wouldn't believe until touching. They went out and preached the Good News but had doubts. Seems like some on here claim to have less doubts than the Apostles. I had several younger people say that they left Christianity because they had doubts and when they brought them up they were lambasted by "believers". Hell, just go to the Pope Leo is Bad thread, regular inquisition going on over there down to talking about pulling teeth...

FLBear5630 said:

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Ah, the key phrase "my walk in Christ". We are on the same page.


As a human I don't get or believe everything and a lot of the timeline makes little sense in the greater scheme. I try to help people in my day to day life. I fail at giving to the homeless going in and out of Church, feel hypocritical. Part of being human.

I bring up some of my human questions, failings, or shortcomings to prompt conversation on something I think is important. The Apostles did not believe they "got" it, Peter was constantly fighting his internal fights. Thomas, wouldn't believe until touching. They went out and preached the Good News but had doubts. Seems like some on here claim to have less doubts than the Apostles. I had several younger people say that they left Christianity because they had doubts and when they brought them up they were lambasted by "believers". Hell, just go to the Pope Leo is Bad thread, regular inquisition going on over there down to talking about pulling teeth...

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I'm good not hitting that thread. I've been on enough of them that are probably similar and I've been a part of the less becoming side of them as well. That's why I made my tongue in cheek comment about trying to remember verses that can be thrown back at people on Sic'em.

The sinful me wants to win arguments. The Christian side is supposed to want to win souls. That's one of my many struggles.

I like the verse, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

I struggle on both ends, the wise and harmless ends. Coke seems to do a nice job at presenting his points without being an azz.

FLBear: " No issues, just talking about how the Bible fits in.

But, Catholics have had a different view on the Bible than Protestants, I view Sola Scriptura as the Protestant version of the Catholic's Mary. Too much emphasis on something meant to compliment the Jesus message, not overcome it."

The Bible has a lot of references to people using the Bible to test/prove bonafides, especially about Christ.

Matthew 22:29
Mark 12:24
Luke 24:27
John 5:39

just as snapshots, prove that Scripture is a primary tool for evangelism.

Philip in Acts chapter 8 used Scripture to win the soul of the eunuch in the chariot, for another plain example.

Paul is noted as using Scripture about Jesus in the book of Acts to make his case in the synagogue (Acts 17:2)

Jesus quoted Scripture in all He did.

So it seems to me that any believer should be eager to learn the Scriptures and use them to test human claims.

Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear: " No issues, just talking about how the Bible fits in.

But, Catholics have had a different view on the Bible than Protestants, I view Sola Scriptura as the Protestant version of the Catholic's Mary. Too much emphasis on something meant to compliment the Jesus message, not overcome it."

The Bible has a lot of references to people using the Bible to test/prove bonafides, especially about Christ.

Matthew 22:29
Mark 12:24
Luke 24:27
John 5:39

just as snapshots, prove that Scripture is a primary tool for evangelism.

Philip in Acts chapter 8 used Scripture to win the soul of the eunuch in the chariot, for another plain example.

Paul is noted as using Scripture about Jesus in the book of Acts to make his case in the synagogue (Acts 17:2)

Jesus quoted Scripture in all He did.

So it seems to me that any believer should be eager to learn the Scriptures and use them to test human claims.

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I know what the clergy and Bible say, been hearing it for 60 years. The person that spits the Party line or says because the Bible says so is of no interest. Anyone can do that and most do.

I am interested in the doubter, the questions, the not liking the messenger, the not agreeing but still going on. Still believing and working through the issues. I think there are more out there, but are mot willing to talk about it for fear of BusyTarp pulling their teeth out or calling them non-Christian.

Ever see Risen? The Roman guard he interests me. Overcoming his brain saying this cant be true. That is my interest. The suit wearer that does everything according to his Pastor and never questions, nah. The Priest who goes down to the Bus Terminal and takes on pimps over runaways but still questions, they are interesting. The Gay person that keeps coming back but knows they cant change, that is intriguing. Just my view. World is made up of all kinds.

Do you view having doubt as having a license to sin?

" I believe. Help my unbelief. "


" Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."

"Come," he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"

Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

I'm not aware of anyone that doesn't have some doubt at some point.

Doubt is also a two-sided coin. You can doubt your doubts by applying as much scrutiny to them as you do to your beliefs. Are they based on evidence, selfishness, etc…



You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

Agree generally with your last. Particularly because Jesus was angry with the Pharisees and the Scribes, because they made Salvation harder than it was meant to be to find. All through Scripture we see accounts of simple people finding hope and help, often by carrying hope within them and helping their neighbors.

I never forget that Job started getting better not when his friends threw judgment at him, but when they finally listened to God and brought sacrifices to Job and prayed with him, rather than arguing endlessly.

4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

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anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

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No True Scotsman fallacy

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John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

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Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

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Like love and justice?

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Nope

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Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

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As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

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Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

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Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

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Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

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My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

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so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

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Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

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anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

---

Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

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its not even close to that..

To know somebody means to have a personal relationship with them, which involves understanding their character, feelings, and experiences, rather than just being familiar with their name or basic facts about them. This type of knowledge often requires personal communication and trust.

Just look around is the answer to is there a God.. a rational mind would say yes and then you can decide if you want to get to know Him or not.

Knowing there is a God and knowing God are an ocean apart.

Think of all the times a person has surprised you by having a hidden talent. This is somebody you thought you knew. Or a time when somebody broke your heart, again, you thought you knew them.

You have no relationship like that with God because you dont believe in Him at all as far as I can tell.

God isnt here to force you into submission like a slave, God is here to love you like a father loves his children.

If you don't want to live at home with your father, that's your choice. If you don't want to talk to your father, that's your choice. If you want to make your way in the world and act like your father doesnt exist, it's your choice.

If you want to come home to Him, He will always welcome you. Your choice. He loves you. He hopes you will choose to come home.

quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

---

Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

---

Despite the overwhelming evidence, why do you suppose the OJ jury didn't. Convict?

Did some of them not want there to be a conviction or was the evidence lacking?

4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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4th and Inches said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

---

Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

---

its not even close to that..

To know somebody means to have a personal relationship with them, which involves understanding their character, feelings, and experiences, rather than just being familiar with their name or basic facts about them. This type of knowledge often requires personal communication and trust.

Just look around is the answer to is there a God.. a rational mind would say yes and then you can decide if you want to get to know Him or not.

Knowing there is a God and knowing God are an ocean apart.

Think of all the times a person has surprised you by having a hidden talent. This is somebody you thought you knew. Or a time when somebody broke your heart, again, you thought you knew them.

You have no relationship like that with God because you dont believe in Him at all as far as I can tell.

God isnt here to force you into submission like a slave, God is here to love you like a father loves his children.

If you don't want to live at home with your father, that's your choice. If you don't want to talk to your father, that's your choice. If you want to make your way in the world and act like your father doesnt exist, it's your choice.

If you want to come home to Him, He will always welcome you. Your choice. He loves you. He hopes you will choose to come home.

---

Insufficient evidence that the biblical God exists.

Plenty of evidence that he is not worthy of worship

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

---

Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

---

Despite the overwhelming evidence, why do you suppose the OJ jury didn't. Convict?

Did some of them not want there to be a conviction or was the evidence lacking?

---

You bring this up again?

The state failed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Not a single defense lawyer I knew was surprised at the acquittal

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

quash said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: " self deception - I've already been there and done that."

Quoted to show you outed yourself, TS.

---

anybody who walks away was never in the spirit to begin with..

Nobody walks away from being in the spirit.

---

No True Scotsman fallacy

---

John 10:29 "My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch anything from my Father's hand."

It is clearly written for those that can hear and see

---

Hoo boy.

You can't snatch anything from a fake hand. You just can't.

I don't believe things that have to be believed in to be true

---

Like love and justice?

---

Nope

---

Quash doesn't believe in love or justice. Wow.

---

As usual you are wrong.
I know both those things exist and they don't need my belief to go in existing
.

I find your willingness to deceive a poor witness

---

Your problem, quash, is that faith and God also do not require your support to exist, but you deny them.

Ergo, you are an hypocrite.

---

Glad to see you abandoned the love and justice argument.

Now you're only half wrong. I have no problem acknowledging that faith exists. You are welcome to your faith claims.
Claiming gods exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

---

Claiming God does not exist is a truth claim, and truth claims require evidence. What have you got?

Councilor, you know that we cannot prove the existence of God anymore than you can prove the nonexistence of god. Outside of the tugging on one's heart and the hardening of that same heart, then all we can do is follow the evidence.

As legal council, you are familiar with jury instructions that often follow this line -"base your verdict solely on the evidence presented in the courtroom and disregard all personal views, emotions, biases, and outside opinions." Also as legal council you've presented closing arguments that tug on the emotions, the biases and, the outside opinions. It's impossible to separate those personal things from the evidentiary things.

Over the years there's been hundreds of threads on Sic'em and BaylorFans presenting thousands of points of evidence for God. They've included intelligent design, fulfilled prophecy, historical evidence, geographical evidence, support for the evidence from both inside Christianity and outside Christianity even including evidence from enemies of the faith.

More importantly, there's been God's word, HIS testimony shared many times, often cutting like a knife, convicting and weighing on the heart of those listening, reading.

The time is drawing near when you must review the evidence and render a verdict. An eternal life hangs in the balance. It's your eternal life.

---

My life, not yours, hangs in a balance.
As I've said you are welcome to your faith and your faith claims.
But you have made unsupported truth claims in your Gish Gallop, some of which have nothing to do with the existence of deities.
Not only is your evidence insufficient to support your claim of a god, your circular reasoning argument of the Bible as a source introduces an additional element: the god of the Bible is not worthy of worship.

---

so you have either not read it, or completely misunderstood it.

When your parents punished you for wrong doing, was it because they loved you or because they were harsh unloving people? God is just and merciful. God gives chances to repent prior to punishement.

Your parents would punish you if you were unkind to your siblings, God punishes in the same way.

The laws of this country are a uniform code of justice, the laws of God is also a uniform code of justice.

Believing in God is not like a light switch that's either off or on, believing in God is more like a dimmer switch where it can be completely off or move up and down in levels. When it's all the way on, you have the full radiance of the Holy Spirit. When it's all the way off, you deny the spirit and live by the flesh. Millions of humans on a daily basis adjust their dimmer switch up and down, some turn it completely off and some turn it to full illumination. Others toggle it in the middle to get a "comfortable" setting.

If you want to know if God is real, ask him with an open heart and a little faith. He will show you the truth.

---

Yawn.

That last line is right up there with "just look around"

---

its not even close to that..

To know somebody means to have a personal relationship with them, which involves understanding their character, feelings, and experiences, rather than just being familiar with their name or basic facts about them. This type of knowledge often requires personal communication and trust.

Just look around is the answer to is there a God.. a rational mind would say yes and then you can decide if you want to get to know Him or not.

Knowing there is a God and knowing God are an ocean apart.

Think of all the times a person has surprised you by having a hidden talent. This is somebody you thought you knew. Or a time when somebody broke your heart, again, you thought you knew them.

You have no relationship like that with God because you dont believe in Him at all as far as I can tell.

God isnt here to force you into submission like a slave, God is here to love you like a father loves his children.

If you don't want to live at home with your father, that's your choice. If you don't want to talk to your father, that's your choice. If you want to make your way in the world and act like your father doesnt exist, it's your choice.

If you want to come home to Him, He will always welcome you. Your choice. He loves you. He hopes you will choose to come home.

---

Insufficient evidence that the biblical God exists.

Plenty of evidence that he is not worthy of worship

---

The messsge given is

God knows why you have rejected Him. He stilll wants you to come home. He loves you.

" Plenty of evidence that he is not worthy of worship"

None from anyone worth attention, assuming you mean the God of the Bible.