The case for the Shroud of Turin and Our Lady of Guadalupe

22,017 Views | 463 Replies | Last: 22 hrs ago by Fre3dombear
FLBear5630
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look into where the cloth was taken from on the shroud for testing. IIRC, it was the edges, newer cloth was sewed around the edges and they did not carbon test the shroud itself because it would destroy the part taken.

My view, is if it brought people to think about God. It was successful whether original or manufactured. It served its purpose. Same in Guadalupe.
Mothra
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Fre3dombear said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Mothra said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Mothra said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

This thread is to discuss theory and evidence.

It is not a place to go after people.




Agreed. These two Artifacts have brought literally millions to the faith. Praise God

That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have evidence of that number?


Are you asking about the Tilma? (Lady of Guadeloupe)

If so, Missionaries had little luck converting souls, then there was a massive influx of conversions after apparitions had occurred. Estimates of 6-9 million

My understanding is she allegedly appeared to one person as an apparition, and then supposedly appeared on this guy's cloak. It's the cloak that allegedly led to 6-9 million converts?


Pretty much. After the image appeared, the missionaries reported thousands of conversions a day, totaling millions over the next decade. They only had a few thousand conversions in total the decade before the apparition.

But remember, these were indigenous people, the image on the tilma was very symbolic to them. People can debate the validity of the cloth but I think it's fair to say that the people were extremely moved by the cloth itself thus led to their mass conversion to Christianity.


Catholicism to be clear.

Indeed, there is a difference.
FLBear5630
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You mean Bible Study?
Fre3dombear
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FLBear5630 said:

look into where the cloth was taken from on the shroud for testing. IIRC, it was the edges, newer cloth was sewed around the edges and they did not carbon test the shroud itself because it would destroy the part taken.

My view, is if it brought people to think about God. It was successful whether original or manufactured. It served its purpose. Same in Guadalupe.



Yes exactly. Thats what the new studies proved
For considerstion.
Fre3dombear
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Mothra said:

Fre3dombear said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Mothra said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Mothra said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

This thread is to discuss theory and evidence.

It is not a place to go after people.




Agreed. These two Artifacts have brought literally millions to the faith. Praise God

That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have evidence of that number?


Are you asking about the Tilma? (Lady of Guadeloupe)

If so, Missionaries had little luck converting souls, then there was a massive influx of conversions after apparitions had occurred. Estimates of 6-9 million

My understanding is she allegedly appeared to one person as an apparition, and then supposedly appeared on this guy's cloak. It's the cloak that allegedly led to 6-9 million converts?


Pretty much. After the image appeared, the missionaries reported thousands of conversions a day, totaling millions over the next decade. They only had a few thousand conversions in total the decade before the apparition.

But remember, these were indigenous people, the image on the tilma was very symbolic to them. People can debate the validity of the cloth but I think it's fair to say that the people were extremely moved by the cloth itself thus led to their mass conversion to Christianity.


Catholicism to be clear.

Indeed, there is a difference.


Exactly. Our message is getting through. The Catholic faith is the universal Christian faith of Christ's church He built on the first Pope Peter, The Rock. Has been since the beginning
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

This thread is to discuss theory and evidence.

It is not a place to go after people.



Not even the Catholic Church will stipulate to its authenticity. All of the objective evidence points to a Middle Ages date. You have to realize that the Shroud showed up at a time when Catholic Churches were trying to out do each other in collecting relics. There was a quiet industry trading in and selling relics to churches, and churches commissioning merchants to secure bogus relics of saints across the Mediterranean as far away as Egypt based upon rumors of burial sites. The churches in Europe, especially Italy, are full of bones and body parts of claimed saints on display for notoriety and to draw pilgirms and converts.

If you believe the shroud is authentic, then you certainly should have no problem believing the Talpiot Tomb and its contents are authentic. There is far more evidence to support that claim than the Shroud.
DallasBear9902
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

Mothra said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

This thread is to discuss theory and evidence.

It is not a place to go after people.




Agreed. These two Artifacts have brought literally millions to the faith. Praise God

That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have evidence of that number?


Are you asking about the Tilma? (Lady of Guadeloupe)

If so, Missionaries had little luck converting souls, then there was a massive influx of conversions after apparitions had occurred. Estimates of 6-9 million

As important is that Our Lady of Guadalupe showing the way to mass conversion to Christ finally put a stop to the Aztec practice of human sacrifice (and other horrible violence). After 5+ years the Franciscans were ready to pack up shop and go back to Europe. They simply weren't making inroads with the indigenous population. In December of 1531 that all changed.

The original Franciscan Church built in Mexico City in 1524 is still standing and in service, though the rest of the monastery was torn down. There are a few different historical churches 250+ years old within blocks of each other in that part of MC. Very cool place to visit. I also encourage pilgrimage to Mexico City. Very safe city and my wife and biological children who all are Yankee gringos never have any trouble there, including when visiting without me.
Oldbear83
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.
Oldbear83
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.
4th and Inches
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

Oldbear83
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I find the Shroud of Turin an interesting discussion, in part because people reveal their assumptions pretty soon in the discussion.

I have the following basic opinions regarding the Shroud of Turin:

1) I do not need physical relics to believe the Gospel, or have a personal relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ;

2) The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively dated back to at least 1578 (with historical references as far back as 1354). That of course does not prove the authenticity of claims by those who believe it is the burial linen of Christ, but it does impact what we can know about the thing, and it also speaks to questions about how it was made;

3) Tests done in 1898 observed that the image has the character of photographic negatives rather than positives, which matters since the Shroud definitely predates the invention of photography;

4) Tests in the 1970s could not support claims that the images were made with paint or pigments, scorches or other known agents. Critics have never been able to demonstrate how the image was created;

5) In 1978 the Vatican approved Carbon-14 testing of the Shroud material by three laboratories. All three produced results saying the fabric was made between 1260 and 1390. However, criticism of the testing methodology has disputed this finding, especially since the material tested may have come from material used to repair the fabric during the medieval period;

Sampling error? | Nature

Microscopical Investigation of Selected Raes Threads from the Shroud of Turin

Analytical Results On Thread Samples Taken From The Raes Sampling Area (Corner) Of The Shroud Cloth

6) Raymond Rogers argued that the presence of vanillin confirms the age: "The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicate that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggest the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years"

Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin

7) It should also be noted that the Shroud was often handled by priests during displays, and this could cause bacterial contamination affecting the apparent age of the fabric;

C-14 Debate from alt.turin-shroud

8) There has been debate since 1988 regarding the data and methods used in the C-14 testing, including claims that data was selectively used,

Regression analysis with partially labelled regressors: carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin | Statistics and Computing | Springer Nature Link

that raw data is in place different from data presented in the final report,

Tristan Casabianca, Emanuela Marinelli, Giuseppe Pernagallo & Benedetto Torrisi, The Radiocarbon Dating of the Turin Shroud: New Evidence from Raw Data - PhilArchive

and that since different fabrics were used (those repairs over time again), and the main image was in a central place not allowed for the testing, the report should at least have noted the potential for inconclusive or disparate findings;

An instructive inter-laboratory comparison: The 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin - ScienceDirect


9) a 2022 Italian study used a new method, x-ray dating, which does not destroy fabric and therefore could be applied to the whole fabric, and their report found that the linen was consistent with the time of Christ.

X-ray Dating of a Turin Shroud's Linen Sample


Now this debate could be seen as evidence of the authenticity of the Shroud, although in fact it only addresses the possible age of the fabric. It does not, for example, clarify how the Shroud - if real - found its way from Christ's tomb to a European church. It does not explain why there are no references to the Shroud prior to the fourteenth Century. It does not explain the purpose to creating such an artifact.

So for now, what we are seeing here is a strange thing we can discuss, but which should not drive our faith or belief in Christ.
Osodecentx
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BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition
Tempus Edax Rerum
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Of course it's fake. Can't believe anyone is gullible enough to believe otherwise.
ShooterTX
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Osodecentx said:

BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition


No, no, no....

Don't you know that there is NO idolatry in roman Catholicism???

They don't worship the relics, or Mary or the bread & wine.... they conveniently redefined the word worship so that all of their "veneration" is not worship or idolatry. Even though people in the scriptures were condemned for such actions, the Catholics were able to correct the scriptures with their redefinitions. Poor Holy Spirit got it all wrong... thankfully the Pope was able to correct Him.

They will mock you for studying the Word of God, but they have no problem with people going on pilgrimages to "not worship" relics around the world.

BusyTarpDuster2017
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ShooterTX said:

Osodecentx said:

BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition


No, no, no....

Don't you know that there is NO idolatry in roman Catholicism???

They don't worship the relics, or Mary or the bread & wine.... they conveniently redefined the word worship so that all of their "veneration" is not worship or idolatry. Even though people in the scriptures were condemned for such actions, the Catholics were able to correct the scriptures with their redefinitions. Poor Holy Spirit got it all wrong... thankfully the Pope was able to correct Him.

They will mock you for studying the Word of God, but they have no problem with people going on pilgrimages to "not worship" relics around the world.


Lol. So much for the Catholic theory that the Lady of Guadalupe apparition brought people to Jesus.
BigGameBaylorBear
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ShooterTX said:

Osodecentx said:

BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition


No, no, no....

Don't you know that there is NO idolatry in roman Catholicism???

They don't worship the relics, or Mary or the bread & wine.... they conveniently redefined the word worship so that all of their "veneration" is not worship or idolatry. Even though people in the scriptures were condemned for such actions, the Catholics were able to correct the scriptures with their redefinitions. Poor Holy Spirit got it all wrong... thankfully the Pope was able to correct Him.

They will mock you for studying the Word of God, but they have no problem with people going on pilgrimages to "not worship" relics around the world.




Insane cope. There's not a single Catholic on this board who has mocked anyone for "studying the word"

It's literally just Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
Oldbear83
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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

Doc Holliday
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Osodecentx said:

BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition
Don't trust your vibes as a theological judgment dressed up as discernment.

If you find this kind of behavior as superstitious, you're gonna feel the same way about psalms and other parts of scripture. The Psalms are full of prostration, physical suffering as prayer, bringing the whole person before God.

Modern Protestantism is almost functionally gnostic. Especially the reformed approach. The instinct that grace is real but matter is basically inert, that physical objects and physical acts can't be genuine vehicles of divine presence or transformation, is not a Protestant insight recovered from Scripture. It's a dualism that Gnosticism would recognize immediately. The Gnostics weren't atheists. They believed in spirit, in salvation, in a higher divine realm. What they denied was that matter could be a genuine vehicle of it.

The Incarnation is the direct answer to that. Paul's handkerchiefs. Elijah's bones. Certainly you can disagree with specific Catholic theological formulations, but if you feel that anything physical can't be Holy…then that's a problem.
BigGameBaylorBear
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Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.
Osodecentx
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Doc Holliday said:

Osodecentx said:

BearWithMe said:

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition
Don't trust your vibes as a theological judgment dressed up as discernment.

If you find this kind of behavior as superstitious, you're gonna feel the same way about psalms and other parts of scripture. The Psalms are full of prostration, physical suffering as prayer, bringing the whole


I don't worship the Psalms. I read them
4th and Inches
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.
its almost like you never read the bible..

Where does it say Gods objective is to convince everyone to believe?
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.
TexasScientist
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4th and Inches said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

its almost like you never read the bible..

Where does it say Gods objective is to convince everyone to believe?

The so called "Great Commission."
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
BigGameBaylorBear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.
4th and Inches
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TexasScientist said:

4th and Inches said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

its almost like you never read the bible..

Where does it say Gods objective is to convince everyone to believe?

The so called "Great Commission."
Matthew 28:19 is part of the Great Commission, where Jesus instructs His disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Doesnt say go make all people disciples, just disciples of all nations..

What else you got?
BigGameBaylorBear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
Doc Holliday
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

Calvinists think you were predestined to be Catholic and rejected by God lol

But seriously, there's a lot of hatred and disdain for Catholics/Orthodox. At the same time they've never really had opposition in the US until very recently, which has become popular online. They're clearly not ready to handle debates or defend their theology.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Doc Holliday said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

Calvinists think you were predestined to be Catholic and rejected by God lol

But seriously, there's a lot of hatred and disdain for Catholics/Orthodox. At the same time they've never really had opposition in the US until very recently, which has become popular online. They're clearly not ready to handle debates or defend their theology.

Says the guy who has had to run away from all my questions and avoid debating me.
BigGameBaylorBear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.


You have no authority to make such claims. What is your denomination? These are most likely your own opinions based on your own interpretation of scripture. Most Protestants and their pastors would agree that Catholics are saved due to their own faith in Christ.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
Osodecentx
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BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BigGameBaylorBear said:

Oldbear83 said:

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.




Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.


Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.


Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

 
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