BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

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You have no authority to make such claims.

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Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

What makes a Catholic a Christian or not?

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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So how was it made, TS?

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Watch the video.

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No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

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Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

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Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

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It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.

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I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

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Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.

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Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

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The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

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First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

What makes a Catholic a Christian or not?

---

Same thing that makes a Protestant a Christian or not

Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

Agreed. You seem like a reasonable person, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this follow-up.

Let's use a text-book Catholic - Goes to Mass on Sunday, confession a few times a year, stays out of trouble, and professes Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you believe this person is saved? BustyTarp thinks they're damned.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

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You have no authority to make such claims.

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Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

Agreed. You seem like a reasonable person, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this follow-up.

Let's use a text-book Catholic - Goes to Mass on Sunday, confession a few times a year, stays out of trouble, and professes Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you believe this person is saved? BustyTarp thinks they're damned.

---

You had salvation at professes Jesus as Lord & savior.

Mass, confession , & stays out of trouble are works (not a free gift)

Osodecentx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

What makes a Catholic a Christian or not?

---

Same thing that makes a Protestant a Christian or not

---

Which means what for Catholics? Do you beleive that someone who believes they must go to Mary for their salvation, and who then credits her for their obtaining salvation is saved? Do you believe that someone who believes that their obedience is required for salvation is saved?

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims.

---

Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

---

My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

Agreed. You seem like a reasonable person, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this follow-up.

Let's use a text-book Catholic - Goes to Mass on Sunday, confession a few times a year, stays out of trouble, and professes Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you believe this person is saved? BustyTarp thinks they're damned.

---

You do know that "professing Jesus as the Son of God" isn't what saves a person, don't you? As Scripture says, even the demons know that.

Now regarding the others you said - I did NOT say that a practicing Roman Catholic is damned, I said that a Roman Catholic who believes in that doctrine behind the practice is damned. Meaning, they don't just attend Mass, they actually believe what is being taught by the mass. If one "stays out trouble" in order to please God, that is not what's damnable - what's damnable, is the belief that your salvation is dependent on your obedience. Because that would mean you're trusting on your own works and merit for your salvation, rather than on Jesus. That's not saving faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims.

---

Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

---

My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

---

It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

There's a particular kind of lazy Protestant polemics that keeps circulating, and it needs to be addressed bluntly.

The claim that Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary, engage in idol worship, or hold to a works-based salvation. These aren't serious theological objections. They're bumper sticker theology repeated by people who push low IQ slop.

If you've never done a serious, sustained engagement with Church history and the early Church Fathers, you have no business doing apologetics. Not as an insult…as a matter of basic intellectual honesty. Christianity didn't begin in 1517, or 1611, or whenever your particular tradition was founded. It has a 2,000 year documented history with a vast and accessible body of primary literature.

I can't believe anyone thinks the shroud is real.

Tempus Edax Rerum said:

---

I can't believe anyone thinks the shroud is real.

---

Luke 23:53

Then he took the body down from the cross and wrapped it in a long sheet of linen cloth and laid it in a new tomb that had been carved out of rock.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

Edit: i just want to say that I'm not saying this because I hate Catholics. I believe that Catholics are very close to understanding the truth of the gospel, and I want them all to live in the fullness of a relationship with Christ.
I'm sorry if it seems harsh, but the truth is often received as harshness.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims. What is your denomination? These are most likely your own opinions based on your own interpretation of scripture. Most Protestants and their pastors would agree that Catholics are saved due to their own faith in Christ.

---

Not exactly.

It may appear as if most Protestants believe that Catholics are saved, but that is only because most Protestants are ignorant of what the catholic church teaches about salvation, dispensing of grace, the treasury of merit, etc.

For years I had no idea what was going on in Catholicism. Then I attended a catholic funeral mass for an in-law, and was shocked by what they were doing & teaching. Dozens & dozens of prayers to Mary and only a handful of prayers to God. I had many discussions with the catholic side of the family afterwards, and they recommended i read the Catechisms of the church if I wanted to know what the church teaches.

It was a very sad & shocking revelation that so many are being lead into such a false religion.

Very sad

ShooterTX said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

ShooterTX said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims. What is your denomination? These are most likely your own opinions based on your own interpretation of scripture. Most Protestants and their pastors would agree that Catholics are saved due to their own faith in Christ.

---

Not exactly.

It may appear as if most Protestants believe that Catholics are saved, but that is only because most Protestants are ignorant of what the catholic church teaches about salvation, dispensing of grace, the treasury of merit, etc.

For years I had no idea what was going on in Catholicism. Then I attended a catholic funeral mass for an in-law, and was shocked by what they were doing & teaching. Dozens & dozens of prayers to Mary and only a handful of prayers to God. I had many discussions with the catholic side of the family afterwards, and they recommended i read the Catechisms of the church if I wanted to know what the church teaches.

It was a very sad & shocking revelation that so many are being lead into such a false religion.

Very sad

---

You're full of crap. Dozens and dozens? The entire mass is centered around God. You either made this story up or you weren't paying attention in the slightest. The only major prayer associated with Mary in the celebration of Mass is the Hail Mary… which derives from the Bible…

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
comes from the angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary in Luke 1:28.

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb"
comes from Elizabeth's words to Mary in Luke 1:42.

The second half, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." is asking for intercession, which is prevalent in the Bible.

You clearly don't "study the Bible" as you claim and your story is bogus. Get lost chump.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims. What is your denomination? These are most likely your own opinions based on your own interpretation of scripture. Most Protestants and their pastors would agree that Catholics are saved due to their own faith in Christ.

---

Not exactly.

It may appear as if most Protestants believe that Catholics are saved, but that is only because most Protestants are ignorant of what the catholic church teaches about salvation, dispensing of grace, the treasury of merit, etc.

For years I had no idea what was going on in Catholicism. Then I attended a catholic funeral mass for an in-law, and was shocked by what they were doing & teaching. Dozens & dozens of prayers to Mary and only a handful of prayers to God. I had many discussions with the catholic side of the family afterwards, and they recommended i read the Catechisms of the church if I wanted to know what the church teaches.

It was a very sad & shocking revelation that so many are being lead into such a false religion.

Very sad

---

You're full of crap. Dozens and dozens? The entire mass is centered around God. You either made this story up or you weren't paying attention in the slightest. The only major prayer associated with Mary in the celebration of Mass is the Hail Mary… which derives from the Bible…

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
comes from the angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary in Luke 1:28.

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb"
comes from Elizabeth's words to Mary in Luke 1:42.

The second half, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." is asking for intercession, which is prevalent in the Bible.

You clearly don't "study the Bible" as you claim and your story is bogus. Get lost chump.

---

I attended the mass and they prayed the Hail Mary prayers and the Queen of Heaven prayers many, many times. You can call me a liar, but I was there and it did happen. For every one Our Father prayer, there were at least 4 Hail Mary's and one or two Queen of Heaven prayers.
You don't have to believe the truth, that's your decision.

Yes, Gabriel said that to Mary. That is not an example of a prayer that we are supposed to copy, anymore than what the angel said to Joshua or what the angel said to Hagar. Do you pray the "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior" prayer from Judges 6:11? Just because an angel or someone says something to Mary, doesn't make it a righteous prayer when it is directed to her instead of God. In Hebrews chapter 4 we are clearly instructed to approach God's throne of grace because of our great high priest, Jesus Christ. No mention of Mary or anyone ever praying any prayers to Mary.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims. What is your denomination? These are most likely your own opinions based on your own interpretation of scripture. Most Protestants and their pastors would agree that Catholics are saved due to their own faith in Christ.

---

Not exactly.

It may appear as if most Protestants believe that Catholics are saved, but that is only because most Protestants are ignorant of what the catholic church teaches about salvation, dispensing of grace, the treasury of merit, etc.

For years I had no idea what was going on in Catholicism. Then I attended a catholic funeral mass for an in-law, and was shocked by what they were doing & teaching. Dozens & dozens of prayers to Mary and only a handful of prayers to God. I had many discussions with the catholic side of the family afterwards, and they recommended i read the Catechisms of the church if I wanted to know what the church teaches.

It was a very sad & shocking revelation that so many are being lead into such a false religion.

Very sad

---

Very true. For most Protestants, it's due to ignorance. Roman Catholicism uses the same vocabulary as Protestants, but what many Protestants don't realize is that what they mean by those words is entirely different. So for many Protestants, they are lulled into the belief that Catholics mainly believe what they do, and thus are true Christians. Part of the reason why I post about this stuff is not just for Catholics, but to alert Protestants about this as well.

ShooterTX said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

---

I'm bringing Protestant skepticism to both. I visited the cathedral in Mexico City wherein the Lady of Guadalupe is housed.. There is an unpleasant (to me) ambience. People crawling up the stairs on their knees with babies of children afflicted with some disease.

It struck me a more superstition

---

No, no, no....

Don't you know that there is NO idolatry in roman Catholicism???

They don't worship the relics, or Mary or the bread & wine.... they conveniently redefined the word worship so that all of their "veneration" is not worship or idolatry. Even though people in the scriptures were condemned for such actions, the Catholics were able to correct the scriptures with their redefinitions. Poor Holy Spirit got it all wrong... thankfully the Pope was able to correct Him.

They will mock you for studying the Word of God, but they have no problem with people going on pilgrimages to "not worship" relics around the world.

---

This viewpoint is like listening to the radio when God allows us in this temporal life to experience his joy and magnificence in 16k 3D HD. Also non stop projection as well

And coming from someone that follows an invented sola scriptura as a Sola Script Tourist that no one even spoke or wrote of for nearly 2000 years. That takes some courage.

Oh the irony. Dont miss out. It's over in a blink. So much to enjoy of what God gave for us in this temporal life.

Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

Agreed. You seem like a reasonable person, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this follow-up.

Let's use a text-book Catholic - Goes to Mass on Sunday, confession a few times a year, stays out of trouble, and professes Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you believe this person is saved? BustyTarp thinks they're damned.

---

You had salvation at professes Jesus as Lord & savior.

Mass, confession , & stays out of trouble are works (not a free gift)

---

And you shall know them by their fruit. Faith without works is dead.

"…not by faith alone"

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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So how was it made, TS?

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Watch the video.

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No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

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Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

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Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

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It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.

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I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

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Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.

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Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

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The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

---

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.

---

The "scientist" believes it's a fake ajd yet believes such technology existed and yet no Mere mortal used it to their temporal advantage.

Zero

None

Imagine believing in such an opinion and believing one's self to be a lofty perspicacious intellect.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims.

---

Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

---

My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

---

It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

---

Rather, to the entire rational world, the "nut" and the "dimwit" is the person who does and believes all these things, and tells themself that it isn't worship of Mary:

• you bow down to statues and images of her, and pray to her in church
• you sing hymns to her in church
• you build and name churches for her, in her honor
• you hold hundreds of festivals yearly for her all over the world
• you have prayers which say her name ten times as much as you say God's name
• you have prayers which call her "peacemaker between sinners and God", "ruler of my house", "God of this world", "the salvation of the universe"
• you ask her to "grant that we may go to heaven" and you tell her "in your hands I place my salvation"
• you call her "Advocate", "Co-Mediatrix", "The ALL HOLY ONE"
• you believe "we can entrust ALL our cares and petitions to her"
• you "surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
• you believe she is the "road we must travel to get to God"
• you believe that "all salvation comes only through HER"
• you believe apparitions of her that command you to make sacrifices to HER "Immaculate Heart"
• you have psalms of her, which take the Psalms of the Bible and remove God's name and put her name in its place

Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I think many Catholics are Christians. Likewise I think many Protestants are Christians. Not so with Mormons

---

Agreed. You seem like a reasonable person, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this follow-up.

Let's use a text-book Catholic - Goes to Mass on Sunday, confession a few times a year, stays out of trouble, and professes Jesus is the Son of God.

Do you believe this person is saved? BustyTarp thinks they're damned.

---

You had salvation at professes Jesus as Lord & savior.

Mass, confession , & stays out of trouble are works (not a free gift)

---

Hebrews 10:24-25(mass aka church)
"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one anotherand all the more as you see the Day approaching."

1 John 1:9(confession)
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

John 8:11(stay out of trouble)
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go, and from now on sin no more."

Not attending mass and Holy Days of obligation is a mortal sin and puts one out of a state of grace.

Fre3dombear said:

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Not attending mass and Holy Days of obligation is a mortal sin and puts one out of a state of grace.

---

Which scripture states this?
When did Jesus teach about the holy days of obligation?

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

Also, here are quotes from Roman Catholic popes and Doctors of the Church on Mary being necessary for salvation:

• "No man goeth to Christ but by his Mother" - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense
• "Mary's intercession is not only useful but necessary for salvation" - St. Alphonsus Ligouri
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" - Pope Francis, paraphrased
• "The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary." - Pope Pius IX
• "Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." - St. Alphonsus Ligouri
• "No one ever finds Christ but with and through Mary. Whoever seeks Christ apart from Mary seeks him in vain." - St. Bonaventure

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

---

You have no authority to make such claims.

---

Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

---

My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

---

It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

---

Rather, to the entire rational world, the "nut" and the "dimwit" is the person who does and believes all these things, and tells themself that it isn't worship of Mary:

• you bow down to statues and images of her, and pray to her in church
• you sing hymns to her in church
• you build and name churches for her, in her honor
• you hold hundreds of festivals yearly for her all over the world
• you have prayers which say her name ten times as much as you say God's name
• you have prayers which call her "peacemaker between sinners and God", "ruler of my house", "God of this world", "the salvation of the universe"
• you ask her to "grant that we may go to heaven" and you tell her "in your hands I place my salvation"
• you call her "Advocate", "Co-Mediatrix", "The ALL HOLY ONE"
• you believe "we can entrust ALL our cares and petitions to her"
• you "surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
• you believe she is the "road we must travel to get to God"
• you believe that "all salvation comes only through HER"
• you believe apparitions of her that command you to make sacrifices to HER "Immaculate Heart"
• you have psalms of her, which take the Psalms of the Bible and remove God's name and put her name in its place

---

Hahaha look at you scrambling, total lies.

"All salvation comes only through her" Where did you even get that? Who says that?

The Vatican officially ruled against the titles of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Co-mediatrix" titles in 2025.

The Vatican also doesn't require Catholics to believe in Apparitions.

You're a total dolt. Nothing you're saying is doctrine.

I was wondering why BustyTarp chose today to have a crash out about Mary, turns out today was the feast day of our Lady of Fatima. You can't make this stuff up….

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

---

Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

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You have no authority to make such claims.

---

Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

---

You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

---

My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

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It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

---

Rather, to the entire rational world, the "nut" and the "dimwit" is the person who does and believes all these things, and tells themself that it isn't worship of Mary:

• you bow down to statues and images of her, and pray to her in church
• you sing hymns to her in church
• you build and name churches for her, in her honor
• you hold hundreds of festivals yearly for her all over the world
• you have prayers which say her name ten times as much as you say God's name
• you have prayers which call her "peacemaker between sinners and God", "ruler of my house", "God of this world", "the salvation of the universe"
• you ask her to "grant that we may go to heaven" and you tell her "in your hands I place my salvation"
• you call her "Advocate", "Co-Mediatrix", "The ALL HOLY ONE"
• you believe "we can entrust ALL our cares and petitions to her"
• you "surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
• you believe she is the "road we must travel to get to God"
• you believe that "all salvation comes only through HER"
• you believe apparitions of her that command you to make sacrifices to HER "Immaculate Heart"
• you have psalms of her, which take the Psalms of the Bible and remove God's name and put her name in its place

---

Hahaha look at you scrambling, total lies.

"All salvation comes only through her" Where did you even get that? Who says that?

The Vatican officially ruled against the titles of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Co-mediatrix" titles in 2025.

The Vatican also doesn't require Catholics to believe in Apparitions.

You're a total dolt. Nothing you're saying is doctrine.

I was wondering why BustyTarp chose today to have a crash out about Mary, turns out today was the feast day of our Lady of Fatima. You can't make this stuff up….

---

Did you read the post right above yours, "dolt"? There's your answer to "who says that?"
Was the Vatican's declaration about "Co-Mediatrix" an ex cathedra declaration? Is your Catechism which calls Mary that been officially been revoked?
The Vatican considers the apparitions "worthy of belief". They don't have to require it, in order to be teaching it.
I actually didn't know that today was Fatima day. Chalk that up to divine guidance that we're talking about this topic.

You're flailing. It's best to just accept the truth, instead of lash out against us for telling you the truth. Roman Catholics are worshiping Mary, and to get around it, they just change the definition of "worship". Sorry to tell you, but God is not going to buy in to your semantics.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

---

Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

---

That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.