Redbrickbear said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

For 350 years being an Anglo male was a necessary condition for almost any decent job in the colonies/America. Anglo males are now very upset about racial discrimination? Call me in a couple of centuries.

---

1. Even if we define the USA as starting in 1776....from that date to the Civil Rights act it was 189 years.

2. Plenty of White people who were not Anglo who had decent jobs in America.

And other groups...like Jewish immigrants broke in fairly quickly as well and saw lots of success despite certain discriminatory attitudes.

America had more up ward mobility than almost any country in the world (and still does)

Something we often forget. America was never a racist as other places. We were an outlier in meritocracy. That was expanded out every generation and more people allowed to rise without discrimination

3. Plenty of the worst jobs and grunt labor was done by White people (Irish especially) for generations.

4. Regardless of past racial discrimination 180 years ago (mostly directed against African Americans) that is still not a logically excuse for modern date discrimination against anyone for reasons of race, gender, national origin.

And its actually against the law.

---

I said colonies/America for a reason.


Pretending that race discrimination ended with the adoption of the Civil Rights Act is stupid.

Easy for Anglos to say "all good now, let's just forget about centuries of oppression.

Do we know what race the cyclops will be?

BearFan33 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Yeah sorry. Your woke bs doesn't work here

---

Neither does logic or facts, so it is in good company.

---

Skin color aside, casting Achilles as a stick thin transgender person seems weird, doesn't it?

---

So did casting a black George Washington in Hamilton. It worked. Maybe this will and maybe it won't.

Artists should see things differently, otherwise lets just watch documentaries. I am not going to pre-judge this one as a problem because Christopher Nolan is good at making movies.

---

I'm going to try to have an open mind and likely watch it when it is available on one of the services (not at the movies). If I cant get past a small person beating up massive dudes I'll change the channel.

---

Achilles is dead by the time of the Odyssey, so if he appears I'm guessing it will be in the underworld. It could be they're portraying him as a much diminished version of his former self.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

For 350 years being an Anglo male was a necessary condition for almost any decent job in the colonies/America. Anglo males are now very upset about racial discrimination? Call me in a couple of centuries.

---

1. Even if we define the USA as starting in 1776....from that date to the Civil Rights act it was 189 years.

2. Plenty of White people who were not Anglo who had decent jobs in America.

And other groups...like Jewish immigrants broke in fairly quickly as well and saw lots of success despite certain discriminatory attitudes.

America had more up ward mobility than almost any country in the world (and still does)

Something we often forget. America was never a racist as other places. We were an outlier in meritocracy. That was expanded out every generation and more people allowed to rise without discrimination

3. Plenty of the worst jobs and grunt labor was done by White people (Irish especially) for generations.

4. Regardless of past racial discrimination 180 years ago (mostly directed against African Americans) that is still not a logically excuse for modern date discrimination against anyone for reasons of race, gender, national origin.

And its actually against the law.

---

I said colonies/America for a reason.


Pretending that race discrimination ended with the adoption of the Civil Rights Act is stupid.

Easy for Anglos to say "all good now, let's just forget about centuries of oppression.

---

By volume of enslavements and length of time, the Islamist world are the largest group of slave owners in history. Basically every Native American tribe enslaved people. Every region of Africa had centuries of slave trade. The first US War was fought against the Africa based Barbary pirates for piracy and taking Americans as slaves.

Is the moral outrage only limited to one group? If not, moral superiority is difficult since every ethnic group globally is guilty.

No.Enslavement is a horror whoever committed it.

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Exactly.

If Helen of Troy was historically a black woman played by a white woman, the animals of BLM would be looting and rioting

And it wouldn't be called DEI, but racist

---

Well in Greek mythology Helen of Troy was also the most beautiful woman that ever existed. At least try to be real.


More realistic!

Forest Bueller III said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Exactly.

If Helen of Troy was historically a black woman played by a white woman, the animals of BLM would be looting and rioting

And it wouldn't be called DEI, but racist

---

Well in Greek mythology Helen of Troy was also the most beautiful woman that ever existed. At least try to be real.


More realistic!

---

yes, this one has the right look about her..

4th and Inches said:

---

Forest Bueller III said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Exactly.

If Helen of Troy was historically a black woman played by a white woman, the animals of BLM would be looting and rioting

And it wouldn't be called DEI, but racist

---

Well in Greek mythology Helen of Troy was also the most beautiful woman that ever existed. At least try to be real.


More realistic!

---

yes, this one has the right look about her..

---

Lolita Nyong'o.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Forest Bueller III said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Exactly.

If Helen of Troy was historically a black woman played by a white woman, the animals of BLM would be looting and rioting

And it wouldn't be called DEI, but racist

---

Well in Greek mythology Helen of Troy was also the most beautiful woman that ever existed. At least try to be real.


More realistic!

---

yes, this one has the right look about her..

---

Lolita Nyong'o.

---

Would you support Matt Damon portraying Martin Luther King in a movie?

---

Harry - we missed your response. Would love to read your answer and explication.

cowboycwr said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

Hey don't confuse him with facts!!!

Even if you provided DNA results that showed Ancient Greeks were more white or just how white modern Greeks were he still would not accept that.

---

yep, and if you bring up with just about anyone the fact that the Celts (yes the Celts like the Irish) had large population settlements in ancient Spain, Thrace/N. Greece, Italy, and Turkey….they look at you like you are talking crazy

But it's of course true

[Celtic tribes crossed the Alps around the 5th and 4th centuries BCE, pushing back the Etruscans to settle the fertile plains of northern Italy. The Romans named this region Cisalpine Gaul ("Gaul on this side of the Alps").

The Adriatic and Danube Basins: Driven by population pressure, Celtic confederacies like the Boii and Volcae pushed south into the Balkans and regions bordering the Adriatic Sea by the 4th century BCE.

They established a permanent presence in the Pannonia region (modern Croatia, Serbia, and Slovenia). They even struck deep into Greece, infamously raiding the sanctuary at Delphi before being pushed back north.]

Sam Lowry said:

---

BearFan33 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Yeah sorry. Your woke bs doesn't work here

---

Neither does logic or facts, so it is in good company.

---

Skin color aside, casting Achilles as a stick thin transgender person seems weird, doesn't it?

---

So did casting a black George Washington in Hamilton. It worked. Maybe this will and maybe it won't.

Artists should see things differently, otherwise lets just watch documentaries. I am not going to pre-judge this one as a problem because Christopher Nolan is good at making movies.

---

I'm going to try to have an open mind and likely watch it when it is available on one of the services (not at the movies). If I cant get past a small person beating up massive dudes I'll change the channel.

---

Achilles is dead by the time of the Odyssey, so if he appears I'm guessing it will be in the underworld. It could be they're portraying him as a much diminished version of his former self.

---

If so it's still a stupid take on the story

In both the Odyssey and the Divine Comedy…Achilles is encountered in the underworld by the protagonist.

And in both he is remorseful over a life thrown away and spent on sin.

Wrath in the Odyssey. And sexual lust in the Divine comedy

But he is still shown to be a powerful masculine figure…even in death…not a deformed freakish one.

He is tormented by regret

[Achilles' Despair: When Odysseus tries to praise Achilles by saying he is still a powerful king among the dead, Achilles responds bitterly, famously stating, "I would rather be a slave on earth for another man-some dirt poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive- than rule down here over all the breathless dead".] ,Book 11 of the Odyssey

[Seeing them, I asked Virgil: "My teacher, who are those souls punished in this awful wind?"

"Ah!" he answered right away, "you most likely know the story of the first one up there. She was an empress over a vast kingdom of many different cultures. But she was so corrupted with every kind of lust…The one next to her is Dido, queen of Carthage, who killed herself for love of Aeneas and thus broke faith…Next is Cleopatra in love with men's lust!

And there's Helen of Troy. That woman caused years of war and woe!

Ah, and there's Troy's greatest warrior, Achilles, who, like the others, lost his life for love. And near him is Paris, who stole Helen and thus started the Trojan War…"

He kept going, naming more than a thousand and telling me how love had cut them off from life. When he had finished naming all these famous ancient souls, I was left dazed with pity and confused.] ,Canto 5

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

And Lupita in marble could pass for white more easily than many Asian actors. Y'all are kind of making my point for me. Races are always mixing, and differences are all about perception. The casting of Helen in this movie is an issue for Americans because Americans are all about color.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BearFan33 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Yeah sorry. Your woke bs doesn't work here

---

Neither does logic or facts, so it is in good company.

---

Skin color aside, casting Achilles as a stick thin transgender person seems weird, doesn't it?

---

So did casting a black George Washington in Hamilton. It worked. Maybe this will and maybe it won't.

Artists should see things differently, otherwise lets just watch documentaries. I am not going to pre-judge this one as a problem because Christopher Nolan is good at making movies.

---

I'm going to try to have an open mind and likely watch it when it is available on one of the services (not at the movies). If I cant get past a small person beating up massive dudes I'll change the channel.

---

Achilles is dead by the time of the Odyssey, so if he appears I'm guessing it will be in the underworld. It could be they're portraying him as a much diminished version of his former self.

---

If so it's still a stupid take on the story

In both the Odyssey and the Divine Comedy…Achilles is encountered in the underworld by the protagonist.

And in both he is remorseful over a life thrown away and spent on sin.

Wrath in the Odyssey. And sexual lust in the Divine comedy

But he is still shown to be a powerful masculine figure…even in death…not a deformed freakish one.

He is tormented by regret

[Achilles' Despair: When Odysseus tries to praise Achilles by saying he is still a powerful king among the dead, Achilles responds bitterly, famously stating, "I would rather be a slave on earth for another man-some dirt poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive- than rule down here over all the breathless dead".] ,Book 11 of the Odyssey

[Seeing them, I asked Virgil: "My teacher, who are those souls punished in this awful wind?"

"Ah!" he answered right away, "you most likely know the story of the first one up there. She was an empress over a vast kingdom of many different cultures. But she was so corrupted with every kind of lust…The one next to her is Dido, queen of Carthage, who killed herself for love of Aeneas and thus broke faith…Next is Cleopatra in love with men's lust!

And there's Helen of Troy. That woman caused years of war and woe!

Ah, and there's Troy's greatest warrior, Achilles, who, like the others, lost his life for love. And near him is Paris, who stole Helen and thus started the Trojan War…"

He kept going, naming more than a thousand and telling me how love had cut them off from life. When he had finished naming all these famous ancient souls, I was left dazed with pity and confused.] ,Canto 5

---

I wouldn't call it stupid until I see what Nolan does with it. Achilles is still a kind of lord in the underworld, but he has no real power. That's why he says he'd rather be alive and a slave than rule over the lifeless dead.

Sam Lowry said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

And Lupita in marble could pass for white….

---

For the sake of academic research…I asked AI to do just that

She still looks more subsaharan African than Euro-Mediterranean

She is a pretty lady no doubt…but it's obvious she does not pass for Greek (modern Greek or Bronze Age Greek)

Sam Lowry said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

Y'all are kind of making my point for me. Races are always mixing, and differences are all about perception. The casting of Helen in this movie is an issue for Americans because Americans are all about color.

---

It would be more accurate to say that individual people are always mixing (or at least some of them are)

Large people groups are not really doing that…or at least it takes a vast amount of time for it to take place.

Modern ancestry tests like 23andMe clusters people into the exact same racial groups recognized for centuries with about 99% accuracy.

Forensic anthropologists can ID race from human bones/remains with 80%-90% precision.

Even among Mediterranean peoples…we can still see the differences/genetic distance…and these are peoples who have lived in extremely close proximity to each other for 2,000+ years

Mixing of human groups does take place…but it obviously does not happen all that fast

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

And Lupita in marble could pass for white more easily than many Asian actors. Y'all are kind of making my point for me. Races are always mixing, and differences are all about perception. The casting of Helen in this movie is an issue for Americans because Americans are all about color.

---

You are seriously challenged. You couldn't admit you had toenails if you took your shoes and socks off.

No one is making your point. A film based on a long loved story from deep history will be challenged when toyed with. This is more like if the story of Pocahontas filmed with Bollywood and Kenyan actors. The audience would be confused unless the film makers stressed their use of artistic license. Also is like the opera Carmen being set during the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s instead of the early 19th century. It can be (has been) done, but is a risk for the opera company to take license with a long known and loved story.

What is silly is that the Odyssey is a story that already could have lots of diverse characters of different ethnicity and gender.

---

So they're taking a risk. They cast a black woman as Helen and you don't think the artistic license is obvious? No wonder you're confused.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

And Lupita in marble could pass for white….

---

For the sake of academic research…I asked AI to do just that

She still looks more subsaharan African than Euro-Mediterranean

She is a pretty lady no doubt…but it's obvious she does not pass for Greek (modern Greek or Bronze Age Greek)

---

Not a great rendering IMO, but still closer than this:

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

---

But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

---

If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

---

Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

---

Y'all are kind of making my point for me. Races are always mixing, and differences are all about perception. The casting of Helen in this movie is an issue for Americans because Americans are all about color.

---

It would be more accurate to say that individual people are always mixing (or at least some of them are)

Large people groups are not really doing that…or at least it takes a vast amount of time for it to take place.

Modern ancestry tests like 23andMe clusters people into the exact same racial groups recognized for centuries with about 99% accuracy.

Forensic anthropologists can ID race from human bones/remains with 80%-90% precision.

Even among Mediterranean peoples…we can still see the differences/genetic distance…and these are peoples who have lived in extremely close proximity to each other for 2,000+ years

Mixing of human groups does take place…but it obviously does not happen all that fast

---

That's not really what those genetic tests are doing. The variations exist on a continuum. The categories are overlaid for convenience.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BearFan33 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Yeah sorry. Your woke bs doesn't work here

---

Neither does logic or facts, so it is in good company.

---

Skin color aside, casting Achilles as a stick thin transgender person seems weird, doesn't it?

---

So did casting a black George Washington in Hamilton. It worked. Maybe this will and maybe it won't.

Artists should see things differently, otherwise lets just watch documentaries. I am not going to pre-judge this one as a problem because Christopher Nolan is good at making movies.

---

I'm going to try to have an open mind and likely watch it when it is available on one of the services (not at the movies). If I cant get past a small person beating up massive dudes I'll change the channel.

---

Achilles is dead by the time of the Odyssey, so if he appears I'm guessing it will be in the underworld. It could be they're portraying him as a much diminished version of his former self.

---

If so it's still a stupid take on the story

In both the Odyssey and the Divine Comedy…Achilles is encountered in the underworld by the protagonist.

And in both he is remorseful over a life thrown away and spent on sin.

Wrath in the Odyssey. And sexual lust in the Divine comedy

But he is still shown to be a powerful masculine figure…even in death…not a deformed freakish one.

He is tormented by regret

[Achilles' Despair: When Odysseus tries to praise Achilles by saying he is still a powerful king among the dead, Achilles responds bitterly, famously stating, "I would rather be a slave on earth for another man-some dirt poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive- than rule down here over all the breathless dead".] ,Book 11 of the Odyssey

[Seeing them, I asked Virgil: "My teacher, who are those souls punished in this awful wind?"

"Ah!" he answered right away, "you most likely know the story of the first one up there. She was an empress over a vast kingdom of many different cultures. But she was so corrupted with every kind of lust…The one next to her is Dido, queen of Carthage, who killed herself for love of Aeneas and thus broke faith…Next is Cleopatra in love with men's lust!

And there's Helen of Troy. That woman caused years of war and woe!

Ah, and there's Troy's greatest warrior, Achilles, who, like the others, lost his life for love. And near him is Paris, who stole Helen and thus started the Trojan War…"

He kept going, naming more than a thousand and telling me how love had cut them off from life. When he had finished naming all these famous ancient souls, I was left dazed with pity and confused.] ,Canto 5

---

I wouldn't call it stupid until I see what Nolan does with it. Achilles is still a kind of lord in the underworld, but he has no real power. That's why he says he'd rather be alive and a slave than rule over the lifeless dead.

---

A fallen super masculine war hero in the after life regretting spending his earthly life seeking revenge/fame/lust

Still not seeing how that works to have that character played by a transsexual actor born a woman who is 5'1 and like 125lbs

At one point Ellen page was actually only 84 pounds

Does not sound much like someone who could play one of the great Rambo types of the Bronze Age world.

[his 2023 memoir, Pageboy, Page shared that there were periods in his life where his weight fluctuated significantly, noting that it dropped to 84 pounds during one especially difficult period in his youth.]

---

"Super-masculine Rambo" is over-simplifying at best. He was widely considered to have been in a homosexual relationship with Patroclus, after all.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BearFan33 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Danielsjackson114 said:

---

Yeah sorry. Your woke bs doesn't work here

---

Neither does logic or facts, so it is in good company.

---

Skin color aside, casting Achilles as a stick thin transgender person seems weird, doesn't it?

---

So did casting a black George Washington in Hamilton. It worked. Maybe this will and maybe it won't.

Artists should see things differently, otherwise lets just watch documentaries. I am not going to pre-judge this one as a problem because Christopher Nolan is good at making movies.

---

I'm going to try to have an open mind and likely watch it when it is available on one of the services (not at the movies). If I cant get past a small person beating up massive dudes I'll change the channel.

---

Achilles is dead by the time of the Odyssey, so if he appears I'm guessing it will be in the underworld. It could be they're portraying him as a much diminished version of his former self.

---

If so it's still a stupid take on the story

In both the Odyssey and the Divine Comedy…Achilles is encountered in the underworld by the protagonist.

And in both he is remorseful over a life thrown away and spent on sin.

Wrath in the Odyssey. And sexual lust in the Divine comedy

But he is still shown to be a powerful masculine figure…even in death…not a deformed freakish one.

He is tormented by regret

[Achilles' Despair: When Odysseus tries to praise Achilles by saying he is still a powerful king among the dead, Achilles responds bitterly, famously stating, "I would rather be a slave on earth for another man-some dirt poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive- than rule down here over all the breathless dead".] ,Book 11 of the Odyssey

[Seeing them, I asked Virgil: "My teacher, who are those souls punished in this awful wind?"

"Ah!" he answered right away, "you most likely know the story of the first one up there. She was an empress over a vast kingdom of many different cultures. But she was so corrupted with every kind of lust…The one next to her is Dido, queen of Carthage, who killed herself for love of Aeneas and thus broke faith…Next is Cleopatra in love with men's lust!

And there's Helen of Troy. That woman caused years of war and woe!

Ah, and there's Troy's greatest warrior, Achilles, who, like the others, lost his life for love. And near him is Paris, who stole Helen and thus started the Trojan War…"

He kept going, naming more than a thousand and telling me how love had cut them off from life. When he had finished naming all these famous ancient souls, I was left dazed with pity and confused.] ,Canto 5

---

I wouldn't call it stupid until I see what Nolan does with it. Achilles is still a kind of lord in the underworld, but he has no real power. That's why he says he'd rather be alive and a slave than rule over the lifeless dead.

---

A fallen super masculine war hero in the after life regretting spending his earthly life seeking revenge/fame/lust

Still not seeing how that works to have that character played by a transsexual actor born a woman who is 5'1 and like 125lbs

At one point Ellen page was actually only 84 pounds

Does not sound much like someone who could play one of the great Rambo types of the Bronze Age world.

[his 2023 memoir, Pageboy, Page shared that there were periods in his life where his weight fluctuated significantly, noting that it dropped to 84 pounds during one especially difficult period in his youth.]

---

"Super-masculine Rambo" is over-simplifying at best. He was widely considered to have been in a homosexual relationship with Patroclus, after all.

---

We are talking about his physical appearance and war fighting ability

Not his sexuality

PS

In the ancient world engaging in homosexual behavior was not considered feminine unless you were the passive partner.

[ In the Greco-Roman world, sex was largely defined by power and social dominance…freeborn man was expected to be the "active" partner. As long as the passive partner was socially beneath him, it was generally considered acceptable. A citizen could freely have sex with male slaves, prostitutes, or foreigners without losing social standing, provided he was the active partner.The Taboo of Submission: For an adult, freeborn Greek or Roman citizen to play the passive role was a massive disgrace. It meant surrendering one's masculinity and acting like a woman or an enslaved person.]

Redbrickbear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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Rumor has it there are a ton of Anglo-Saxon performers in the movie as well.

Weird, weird stuff.

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But did any of them get cast in roles of an African person? Egyptian? Etc?

Are any female roles being played by men?

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If lily-white Robert Pattinson and Tom Holland can play olive-skinned Mediterranean characters, why can't a half-African do the same? Is she more black than they are white? By what standard if so?

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Not sure the Ancient Greeks weren't more European Caucasian from their depictions of themselves. Their facial features don't seem to match modern Mediterranean faces. Even modern Greeks aren't all naturally olive skinned. The eastern invasions likely changed their appearance.

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Hey don't confuse him with facts!!!

Even if you provided DNA results that showed Ancient Greeks were more white or just how white modern Greeks were he still would not accept that.

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yep, and if you bring up with just about anyone the fact that the Celts (yes the Celts like the Irish) had large population settlements in ancient Spain, Thrace/N. Greece, Italy, and Turkey….they look at you like you are talking crazy

But it's of course true

[Celtic tribes crossed the Alps around the 5th and 4th centuries BCE, pushing back the Etruscans to settle the fertile plains of northern Italy. The Romans named this region Cisalpine Gaul ("Gaul on this side of the Alps").

The Adriatic and Danube Basins: Driven by population pressure, Celtic confederacies like the Boii and Volcae pushed south into the Balkans and regions bordering the Adriatic Sea by the 4th century BCE.

They established a permanent presence in the Pannonia region (modern Croatia, Serbia, and Slovenia). They even struck deep into Greece, infamously raiding the sanctuary at Delphi before being pushed back north.]

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So true.

Then you also had large Norse influence/settlers (Vikings) at one time. Huns. Romans, various groups from the Middle East.

All this stuff about "modern" countries/people is really crazy when you look at history and the movement of ancient tribes/groups of people. When you look at the migration of peoples you see that it was really just a handful of groups. Over time they settled vast areas, sometimes were pushed further west/south by new groups or assimilated so that the new group was Celt and Germanic for example.

Areas like Greece, Italy, Turkey, etc. that had lots of different groups from both directions come in and assimilate left a very mixed group of modern Italians, Greeks, etc.

So when you talk about modern "peoples" like Poles, Czech, French, Etc. you are really talking about the modern country that has a new name for their people but are really the same ancient ancestors.

And when one studies this it also makes several of the wars over the centuries silly when people were "loyal" to one country that didn't exist maybe 20 years earlier and they were born when it was ruled by a different country and are ethnically the same/similar just maybe language developed differently in one region to give us the different languages that are related. Like the Latin based or German based ones.