cinque said:

---

fadskier said:

---

cinque said:

---

fadskier said:

---

I pray that God will accept me into Heaven. I became a Christian in 5th grade at a revival...I did it as an insurance policy against hell and have never really gotten away from that feeling. I'm sure prayer works, but if God is going to do what He's going to do...why should I pray about it?

I just hope I have the faith to get in.

---

Not a well developed credo for an adult.

---

Provide a better one...

---

It's not my place to craft a credo for you. My job is to observe that you don't have a well developed one.

---

On speck removal duty today C.

Waco1947 said:

---

Prayers
1) Praise
2) Gratitude
3) Confession/thanksgiving
4) Whining (See Lamentations)
5) commitment (Here am I. Send me)
6) Intercession
7) Petition

---

Gee whiz, this is a really good post 47.

Thanks.

Forest Bueller said:

---

cinque said:

---

fadskier said:

---

cinque said:

---

fadskier said:

---

I pray that God will accept me into Heaven. I became a Christian in 5th grade at a revival...I did it as an insurance policy against hell and have never really gotten away from that feeling. I'm sure prayer works, but if God is going to do what He's going to do...why should I pray about it?

I just hope I have the faith to get in.

---

Not a well developed credo for an adult.

---

Provide a better one...

---

It's not my place to craft a credo for you. My job is to observe that you don't have a well developed one.

---

On speck removal duty today C.

---

I'm not trying to clean him...just giving the Holy Spirit a headsup.

Waco1947 said:

---

Prayers
1) Praise
2) Gratitude
3) Confession/thanksgiving
4) Whining (See Lamentations)
5) commitment (Here am I. Send me)
6) Intercession
7) Petition

---

This is very good. I use a simple ACTS method:

Adoration
Confession
Thanksgiving
Supplications

My list contains the same elements as yours. Your list breaks it down nicely!

Waco1947 said:

---

Prayers
1) Praise
2) Gratitude
3) Confession/thanksgiving
4) Whining (See Lamentations)
5) commitment (Here am I. Send me)
6) Intercession
7) Petition

---

If you pray a petition or for intercession how does God respond?
Petition for a very ill child
Intercession for a community struck by devastation say the Santa Fe shooting.?
Do you have other examples?
What your response to a period or intercession not answered as you want?

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

Where is your evidence of this extraordinary claim?

---

What is your evidence that the claim is extraordinary?

It's actually a pretty ordinary claim made by millions of people today and countless millions across history.

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

---

Curious as to what you mean by "work."

If you conceive of God as a genie in a lamp, who is there to do your bidding and grant your wishes . . . then no, I would say asking for stuff doesn't "work."

But that isn't the idea of prayer. Jesus gave us the example: Praise/thanks, request for provision, request for forgiveness. I pray out of obedience (God wills it and instructs us to do so) and to commune with my creator. That definitely "works."

When it comes to my requests, I don't judge the efficacy of my prayer on whether I "get what I want." Mostly because I fully recognize that I have no idea what is actually best for me.

Example: On Halloween my daughters ask me if they can eat the entire bag of candy, that same night, in one sitting. Me saying "No, that's not good for you" seems, in their minds, that their request didn't "work." But that's because they were asking me for something that as a loving father I knew better than to grant them.

This is why when I go to God with requests, I present them in the manner that I think I want them, but I always qualify it by saying "God, I have asked for these things, but only insofar as they meet with your loving will for me. What I really want is whatever I would ask for if I knew what you know. Please give me that."

You seem to view that as a copout, but again I don't see the purpose of prayer to be my wishlist. I'm talking to my creator, expressing gratitude and praise, seeking forgiveness (repenting), etc. It is communication.

bearassnekkid said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

---

Curious as to what you mean by "work."

If you conceive of God as a genie in a lamp, who is there to do your bidding and grant your wishes . . . then no, I would say asking for stuff doesn't "work."

But that isn't the idea of prayer. Jesus gave us the example: Praise/thanks, request for provision, request for forgiveness. I pray out of obedience (God wills it and instructs us to do so) and to commune with my creator. That definitely "works."

When it comes to my requests, I don't judge the efficacy of my prayer on whether I "get what I want." Mostly because I fully recognize that I have no idea what is actually best for me.

Example: On Halloween my daughters ask me if they can eat the entire bag of candy, that same night, in one sitting. Me saying "No, that's not good for you" seems, in their minds, that their request didn't "work." But that's because they were asking me for something that as a loving father I knew better than to grant them.

This is why when I go to God with requests, I present them in the manner that I think I want them, but I always qualify it by saying "God, I have asked for these things, but only insofar as they meet with your loving will for me. What I really want is whatever I would ask for if I knew what you know. Please give me that."

You seem to view that as a copout, but again I don't see the purpose of prayer to be my wishlist. I'm talking to my creator, expressing gratitude and praise, seeking forgiveness (repenting), etc. It is communication.

---

Don't you think what you say above contradicts what is clearly written in the Bible?

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

First John 5:14-15 "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."

John 15:7 "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

It's clearly stated in the above verses. Isn't it possible that your post above is a way to rationalize, acknowledge, and accept that prayer doesn't work?

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Prayers
1) Praise
2) Gratitude
3) Confession/thanksgiving
4) Whining (See Lamentations)
5) commitment (Here am I. Send me)
6) Intercession
7) Petition

---

If you pray a petition or for intercession how does God respond?
Petition for a very ill child
Intercession for a community struck by devastation say the Santa Fe shooting.?
Do you have other examples?
What your response to a period or intercession not answered as you want?

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

---

Curious as to what you mean by "work."

If you conceive of God as a genie in a lamp, who is there to do your bidding and grant your wishes . . . then no, I would say asking for stuff doesn't "work."

But that isn't the idea of prayer. Jesus gave us the example: Praise/thanks, request for provision, request for forgiveness. I pray out of obedience (God wills it and instructs us to do so) and to commune with my creator. That definitely "works."

When it comes to my requests, I don't judge the efficacy of my prayer on whether I "get what I want." Mostly because I fully recognize that I have no idea what is actually best for me.

Example: On Halloween my daughters ask me if they can eat the entire bag of candy, that same night, in one sitting. Me saying "No, that's not good for you" seems, in their minds, that their request didn't "work." But that's because they were asking me for something that as a loving father I knew better than to grant them.

This is why when I go to God with requests, I present them in the manner that I think I want them, but I always qualify it by saying "God, I have asked for these things, but only insofar as they meet with your loving will for me. What I really want is whatever I would ask for if I knew what you know. Please give me that."

You seem to view that as a copout, but again I don't see the purpose of prayer to be my wishlist. I'm talking to my creator, expressing gratitude and praise, seeking forgiveness (repenting), etc. It is communication.

---

Don't you think what you say above acontradicts what is clearly written in the Bible?

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

First John 5:14-15 "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."

John 15:7 "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

It's clearly stated in the above verses. Isn't it possible that your post above is a way to rationalize, acknowledge, and accept that prayer doesn't work?

---

Sure, it's possible. But I don't believe that it is. That's partly where faith comes in, and where I think you're missing out.

Note the language "according to his will", and "if you abide in me." This isn't a selfish wish-fulfillment mechanism. It is about asking for things that are fruit-bearing and in alignment with his will because we are so saturated with God that our desires coincide with his plans. We communicate with God and participate with him through prayer to the degree that we consult with him and get our goals and desires in tune with his purposes. James 4:3 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures."

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Prayers
1) Praise
2) Gratitude
3) Confession/thanksgiving
4) Whining (See Lamentations)
5) commitment (Here am I. Send me)
6) Intercession
7) Petition

---

If you pray a petition or for intercession how does God respond?
Petition for a very ill child
Intercession for a community struck by devastation say the Santa Fe shooting.?
Do you have other examples?
What your response to a period or intercession not answered as you want?

---

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

I'm glad you've come to see Christianity as a form of "social enlightenment." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

The abolitionist movement was founded on Christianity. William Wilberforce was its leading light in England, and the American Anti-Slavery Society grew out of the religious revival known as the Second Great Awakening.

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

Where is your evidence of this extraordinary claim?

---

What is your evidence that the claim is extraordinary?

It's actually a pretty ordinary claim made by millions of people today and countless millions across history.

---

It's an extraordinary ordinary claim because it requires the suspension of natural laws by a mythological being without any credible evidence.

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

Exactly. You think there is no higher moral standard. Just the whim of society at a given time. So you think slavery was moral. I think that's an insane position.

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

I'm glad you've come to see Christianity as a form of "social enlightenment." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

---

Social enlightenment comes from many sources, and yes Christianity can enlighten. Christianity also has a dark side of oppression. Slavery was defended and condemned from the Christian pulpit. The Bible fails to condemn slavery.

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

I'm glad you've come to see Christianity as a form of "social enlightenment." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

---

Social enlightenment comes from many sources, and yes Christianity can enlighten. Christianity also has a dark side of oppression. Slavery was defended and condemned from the Christian pulpit. The Bible fails to condemn slavery.

---

So do you. And why don't you give the Bible authors the same pass you give yourself? I thought morality was just about the whim of a particular society at a particular point in time. If so, how did the Bible "fail?" If, on the other hand, you think slavery is morally wrong in and of itself, regardless of time period, and thus the Bible should have condemned it . . . . from where are you getting this higher, over-arching morality standard which is in apparent conflict with your very own definition of morality?

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

I'm glad you've come to see Christianity as a form of "social enlightenment." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

---

Social enlightenment comes from many sources, and yes Christianity can enlighten. Christianity also has a dark side of oppression. Slavery was defended and condemned from the Christian pulpit. The Bible fails to condemn slavery.

---

First century Christianity never intended to overthrow the existing social order. Its goal was to change hearts. With that in mind, go back and re-read Paul's letter to Philemon, paying particular attention to how Paul tells Philemon to receive and treat Onesimus (vv. 14-16).

JXL said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

jstins said:

---

El Oso said:

---

A

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

Let me amend that. It only works in the mind of the prayer--and if that's enough to get you through whatever you need it to get you through--then good for you.

---

God always answers all prayers. The answer may not be what you want it to be, but the answer will always glorify or strengthen HIS kingdom.

---

See right there is the game. It's built in. God can't lose when the system is rigged no matter what.

---

It isn't about winning and losing. God doesn't play games.

Don't worry El. God is too loving to force you into his presence for eternity against your wishes.

---

Oh but it is--if I don't follow the rules--I lose my chance at eternity.

Let me ask you a serious, off topic question: when you die--where do you go? Are you immediately called up to heaven or do you have to linger in the ground for the rapture?

---

Again, God will not force you to be with him for eternity. There are no rules to follow. You simply have to decide that you want to spend eternity with God.

I do not know if I go straight there or not. I also don't care. It doesn't matter to me at all because I get to spen eternity with my FATHER. Humans care about time and space. When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

Quote:

---

When I die, I leave humanity behind and things like time no longer apply.

---

You got that part right. Make your mark for good while you can, because our time is limited.

---

What is "good"?

---

noun
[ol]
1. that which is morally right; righteousness."a mysterious balance of good and evil"synonyms:virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude[/ol][ol]
2. benefit or advantage to someone or something."he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"synonyms:benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being[/ol]

---

What it "morally right"?

---

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system or collection of ideas of right and wrong conduct
3. Virtuous conduct:
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

All societies determine what they deem as moral and acceptable behavior, whether it is based upon humanistic or religious values.

---

Ahh, I see. There's no higher, universal morality standard, huh. Societies determine what is and isn't moral?

So, slavery in 18th century America was morally right. Interesting take.

---

Actually, much of the world and America believed slavery was morally acceptable. It was the progressive social enlightenment that awakened the conscience of enough people to bring it to an end. Now, looking back it is hard to believe anyone could have condoned slavery.

---

I'm glad you've come to see Christianity as a form of "social enlightenment." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

---

Social enlightenment comes from many sources, and yes Christianity can enlighten. Christianity also has a dark side of oppression. Slavery was defended and condemned from the Christian pulpit. The Bible fails to condemn slavery.

---

First century Christianity never intended to overthrow the existing social order. Its goal was to change hearts. With that in mind, go back and re-read Paul's letter to Philemon, paying particular attention to how Paul tells Philemon to receive and treat Onesimus (vv. 14-16).

---

The Kingdom of God calls for justice.
Luke 1: He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors
Mary's Prayer

bubbadog said:

---

jstins said:

---

What is the standard you judge right, good, or moral against?

There is no morallity without God.

---

Would you consider Buddhists to be amoral?

---

I consider Buddhist to be living. God gave them life. I consider them to be moral. God, even a god they do not know, gave them morals.

I have russet potatoes and I believe in the produce manager. He is my friend and neighbor. Did I get my russets from him or did they ultimately come from a farmer in Idaho?

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

---

Curious as to what you mean by "work."

If you conceive of God as a genie in a lamp, who is there to do your bidding and grant your wishes . . . then no, I would say asking for stuff doesn't "work."

But that isn't the idea of prayer. Jesus gave us the example: Praise/thanks, request for provision, request for forgiveness. I pray out of obedience (God wills it and instructs us to do so) and to commune with my creator. That definitely "works."

When it comes to my requests, I don't judge the efficacy of my prayer on whether I "get what I want." Mostly because I fully recognize that I have no idea what is actually best for me.

Example: On Halloween my daughters ask me if they can eat the entire bag of candy, that same night, in one sitting. Me saying "No, that's not good for you" seems, in their minds, that their request didn't "work." But that's because they were asking me for something that as a loving father I knew better than to grant them.

This is why when I go to God with requests, I present them in the manner that I think I want them, but I always qualify it by saying "God, I have asked for these things, but only insofar as they meet with your loving will for me. What I really want is whatever I would ask for if I knew what you know. Please give me that."

You seem to view that as a copout, but again I don't see the purpose of prayer to be my wishlist. I'm talking to my creator, expressing gratitude and praise, seeking forgiveness (repenting), etc. It is communication.

---

Don't you think what you say above acontradicts what is clearly written in the Bible?

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

First John 5:14-15 "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."

John 15:7 "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

It's clearly stated in the above verses. Isn't it possible that your post above is a way to rationalize, acknowledge, and accept that prayer doesn't work?

---

Sure, it's possible. But I don't believe that it is. That's partly where faith comes in, and where I think you're missing out.

Note the language "according to his will", and "if you abide in me." This isn't a selfish wish-fulfillment mechanism. It is about asking for things that are fruit-bearing and in alignment with his will because we are so saturated with God that our desires coincide with his plans. We communicate with God and participate with him through prayer to the degree that we consult with him and get our goals and desires in tune with his purposes. James 4:3 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures."

---

If your desires coincide with his plans, why do you even need to pray for anything?

TexasScientist said:

---

People pray hoping for supernatural intervention or influence over events or circumstances over which they have little or no control. The efficacy of prayer is psychological only.

---

Because that's something you believe and cannot know, it is invulnerable to disproof.

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

El Oso said:

---

I guess when you grow up doing it 5-10 times a day everyday--old habits die hard.

It doesn't work.

---

Curious as to what you mean by "work."

If you conceive of God as a genie in a lamp, who is there to do your bidding and grant your wishes . . . then no, I would say asking for stuff doesn't "work."

But that isn't the idea of prayer. Jesus gave us the example: Praise/thanks, request for provision, request for forgiveness. I pray out of obedience (God wills it and instructs us to do so) and to commune with my creator. That definitely "works."

When it comes to my requests, I don't judge the efficacy of my prayer on whether I "get what I want." Mostly because I fully recognize that I have no idea what is actually best for me.

Example: On Halloween my daughters ask me if they can eat the entire bag of candy, that same night, in one sitting. Me saying "No, that's not good for you" seems, in their minds, that their request didn't "work." But that's because they were asking me for something that as a loving father I knew better than to grant them.

This is why when I go to God with requests, I present them in the manner that I think I want them, but I always qualify it by saying "God, I have asked for these things, but only insofar as they meet with your loving will for me. What I really want is whatever I would ask for if I knew what you know. Please give me that."

You seem to view that as a copout, but again I don't see the purpose of prayer to be my wishlist. I'm talking to my creator, expressing gratitude and praise, seeking forgiveness (repenting), etc. It is communication.

---

Don't you think what you say above acontradicts what is clearly written in the Bible?

Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

First John 5:14-15 "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."

John 15:7 "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

It's clearly stated in the above verses. Isn't it possible that your post above is a way to rationalize, acknowledge, and accept that prayer doesn't work?

---

Sure, it's possible. But I don't believe that it is. That's partly where faith comes in, and where I think you're missing out.

Note the language "according to his will", and "if you abide in me." This isn't a selfish wish-fulfillment mechanism. It is about asking for things that are fruit-bearing and in alignment with his will because we are so saturated with God that our desires coincide with his plans. We communicate with God and participate with him through prayer to the degree that we consult with him and get our goals and desires in tune with his purposes. James 4:3 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures."

---

If your desires coincide with his plans, why do you even need to pray for anything?

---

https://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html