ATL Bear said:

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bubbadog said:

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ATL Bear said:

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That's the politics of the situation, steeped in a prism of decades old policy perspective, not the objective situation in the modern world.

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The objective situation is that Russia under Putin is not going to return to a non-adversarial relationship with the US as long as NATO "infringes" on what the Russians regard as their sphere of influence/control in Eastern Europe. Having that sphere has been a linchpin of Russian policy since 1945. Putin may not act against the Baltic nations or what remains of Ukraine, but he will never be anything but an adversary as long as we're in those places. Second, Putin needs us as an adversary for the same basic reason the Iranian mullahs do: an external threat to appeal to nationalism and distract people from the sorry state of things in their own economies.

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That's an opinion presented as an object fact. They've never seen a willingness to rethink NATO from the US before, so it's naive to think they wouldn't rethink the relationship with the US in that light. And sanctions rarely help an economy if we're being honest. Just ask Iran.

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If true, that shouldn't bother you one bit.

ATL Bear said:

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Booray said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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Booray said:

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If history is any guide, pushing the Germans to spend more on their military might not be the best idea.

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Apples and oranges.

The present day conditions in their country as well as Europe in general are nothing like the conditions that existed before each of the two World Wars that led to Germany's military build up and mobilization. Also, the country has long since abandoned its prior tradition of having autocratic, dictatorial forms of government influenced by or even dominated by the military and has demonstrated over a long period of time that it is no longer an aggressive threat to its neighbors or the world in general. It is additionally unquestionably a wealthy enough country to be far more responsible for its own defense which has been the case for some time. They along with much of the rest of NATO have become like the lazy 30 something year old that is still living with his parents and expecting them to take care of him like he's still a kid. Time for these countries to "grow up" at least figuratively speaking.

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My point was a little bit tongue in cheek. But realize the less dependent in the US the allies are, the less likely they are to do things we want them to do.

The only time the mutual defense provision has actually been invoked, it was the Europeans helping us, not the other way around.

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We've always shown a willingness to help our allies from a military perspective, and once we're on board, NATO is relatively meaningless. So it's no shock that we'd be the only one needed to invoke the mutual defense provision. That's one of the arguments for the obsolescence of NATO. Of course, most jumped ship when we were building up to Iraq.

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I wish we had.

Wasn't Canada the first country to invoke Article V after 9/11

Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

cinque said:

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Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

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Lying about what?

This might cheer you up since you say the world hates Trump...

riflebear said:

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cinque said:

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Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

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Lying about what?

This might cheer you up since you say the world hates Trump...

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And this proves what, exactly?

Doc Holliday said:

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cinque said:

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Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

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You're just mad that Trump is successful and improving the lives of ALL Americans.

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Tell us how you put people on ignore while reading everything they write. Is that a talent unique to Trumpkins?

cinque said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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cinque said:

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Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

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You're just mad that Trump is successful and improving the lives of ALL Americans.

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Tell us how you put people on ignore while reading everything they write. Is that a talent unique to Trumpkins?

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u r pulling off your typical radical lying post then when people ask you to back it up you try to personally attack them. Answer the question, who is purposefully lying on here other than you?

riflebear said:

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cinque said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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cinque said:

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Cons are really all in for Trump. Outright lying has now been reduced to a matter of style.

Lord today.

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You're just mad that Trump is successful and improving the lives of ALL Americans.

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Tell us how you put people on ignore while reading everything they write. Is that a talent unique to Trumpkins?

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u r pulling off your typical radical lying post then when people ask you to back it up you try to personally attack them. Answer the question, who is purposefully lying on here other than you?

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I attack positions. I rarely make personal attacks on posters. It's not nice.

I think the Boss is right.... I'm tired of protecting Europe and Asia.... Let Germany and Italy.... Even Japan, build up their military so that they can all protect themselves....


When has that ever gone wrong?

ATL Bear said:

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bubbadog said:

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ATL Bear said:

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That's the politics of the situation, steeped in a prism of decades old policy perspective, not the objective situation in the modern world.

---

The objective situation is that Russia under Putin is not going to return to a non-adversarial relationship with the US as long as NATO "infringes" on what the Russians regard as their sphere of influence/control in Eastern Europe. Having that sphere has been a linchpin of Russian policy since 1945. Putin may not act against the Baltic nations or what remains of Ukraine, but he will never be anything but an adversary as long as we're in those places. Second, Putin needs us as an adversary for the same basic reason the Iranian mullahs do: an external threat to appeal to nationalism and distract people from the sorry state of things in their own economies.

---

That's an opinion presented as an object fact. They've never seen a willingness to rethink NATO from the US before, so it's naive to think they wouldn't rethink the relationship with the US in that light. And sanctions rarely help an economy if we're being honest. Just ask Iran.

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There was a time when re-thinking NATO was possible. Unfortunately, we missed the window of opportunity, and we can't go backwards in time. The window someday may open again, but we can't force it open whenever we choose.

tommie said:

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riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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I feel sorry for Kay Bailey Hutchison.

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/08/trump-making-impact-on-nato-as-allies-ramp-up-defense-spending-ambassador-kay-bailey-hutchison.html
She had some great words about Trump the other day.

"I've worked for three presidents, all of whom have said the same thing," Hutchison said. "Now, I think for the first time, we are really seeing the Europeans start going in the same direction. Every ally is now increasing defense spending -- we've had the largest increase in defense spending snce the Cold War."

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They actually stared 4 years ago increasing their defense spending. Why? Because leaders can get you to what what's right and best AND leave you with dignity and value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html

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riflebear said:

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tommie said:

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riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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I feel sorry for Kay Bailey Hutchison.

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/08/trump-making-impact-on-nato-as-allies-ramp-up-defense-spending-ambassador-kay-bailey-hutchison.html
She had some great words about Trump the other day.

"I've worked for three presidents, all of whom have said the same thing," Hutchison said. "Now, I think for the first time, we are really seeing the Europeans start going in the same direction. Every ally is now increasing defense spending -- we've had the largest increase in defense spending snce the Cold War."

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They actually stared 4 years ago increasing their defense spending. Why? Because leaders can get you to what what's right and best AND leave you with dignity and value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html

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Man, you really do get your news from Twitter.
That's scary.

Doc Holliday said:

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Politicians thinking that the real negotiations and talk weren't going to start yet since the press was in the room, and Trump just says "f__k that lets go right now" and takes it to the EU and specifically Germany - WOW!'

I've never seen anyone speak truth and defend America like that against other global decision makers. Trump just put on a clinic on how to fight for American interests. He lets Germany talk their BS than INSTANTLY calls out the money that Germany is paying Russia for energy, and points out how Germany's former chancellor is profiting off of the deal, and asks why we should pay to protect Germany from Russia while Germany is enriching their so-called enemy.

Seriously, they had to kick the press out of the room because it got too real too fast.
This is our president. He loves America.

God bless America.

God bless Trump.

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He'll be bending over for Putin shortly.

Slapping our allies around and making out with Putin!

MAGA!!!

(Poor Ronnie is rolling around in his grave!)

riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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riflebear said:

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tommie said:

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riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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I feel sorry for Kay Bailey Hutchison.

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/08/trump-making-impact-on-nato-as-allies-ramp-up-defense-spending-ambassador-kay-bailey-hutchison.html
She had some great words about Trump the other day.

"I've worked for three presidents, all of whom have said the same thing," Hutchison said. "Now, I think for the first time, we are really seeing the Europeans start going in the same direction. Every ally is now increasing defense spending -- we've had the largest increase in defense spending snce the Cold War."

---

They actually stared 4 years ago increasing their defense spending. Why? Because leaders can get you to what what's right and best AND leave you with dignity and value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html

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Man, you really do get your news from Twitter.
That's scary.

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No, I get it from people who know what they r talking about. And everyone who writes news posts it on twitter.

Are you saying Ari is lying or doesn't know what he is talking about?

No one is perfect but he is one of the last people in the news who calls balls and strikes without bias. He's also very critical of Trump at times.

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Ari is more of a mouthpiece than an analyst or pundit, which is not surprising given his background and experience. Not somebody I'd consider an objective source of information.

Jack Posobiec falls way, way, way below even the low bar that Ari set.

And as a general comment, if you're trying to get news a few hundred characters at a time, regardless of whether the source is liberal or conservative, you're not getting enough background for an informed opinion.

YoakDaddy said:

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cinque said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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I like it how he clearly has that Secretary General very nervous and almost scared. Trump is just the BOSS.

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Chuckle, of what?

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Of you libs. All y'all have left is marching with signs and wearing pink ***** hats.

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Oh you regressives all you have left is your racism and hate for poor people

Welcome to white Nationalist America

Doc you stole one of our words, cognitive dissonance. You also stole marginalized. Bless your heart.

NPR interview HUTCHISON: Well, I think the president has said "America First" is not America only. I think we are much stronger in NATO speaking with 29 voices and the backup of 29 who will say, we are going to stand up against Russia, against malign influence, against attempts to divide us. And I think that is a much stronger position than a country like Russia who has no allies. But look at our alliances. We have allies who are strong and capable. We need them to step up and put that together in the alliance, and that's what I think the president is trying to do.". He's putting together a stronger alliance by ripping them.

The mystery surrounding Kelly's obvious discomfort at the breakfast has been solved. Sarah Sanders revealed this evening that Kelly was upset with there only being Danish and cheeses available for breakfast.

She didn't offer an explanation as to why KBH looked so dyspeptic.

Is Trump's false claim about Germany importing 70% of their gas from Russia an example of his style or just another one of his outright lies?

Wow mention pink ***** hats and they come swarming don't they

bubbadog said:

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riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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riflebear said:

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tommie said:

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riflebear said:

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bubbadog said:

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I feel sorry for Kay Bailey Hutchison.

---

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/08/trump-making-impact-on-nato-as-allies-ramp-up-defense-spending-ambassador-kay-bailey-hutchison.html
She had some great words about Trump the other day.

"I've worked for three presidents, all of whom have said the same thing," Hutchison said. "Now, I think for the first time, we are really seeing the Europeans start going in the same direction. Every ally is now increasing defense spending -- we've had the largest increase in defense spending snce the Cold War."

---

They actually stared 4 years ago increasing their defense spending. Why? Because leaders can get you to what what's right and best AND leave you with dignity and value.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html

---

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Man, you really do get your news from Twitter.
That's scary.

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No, I get it from people who know what they r talking about. And everyone who writes news posts it on twitter.

Are you saying Ari is lying or doesn't know what he is talking about?

No one is perfect but he is one of the last people in the news who calls balls and strikes without bias. He's also very critical of Trump at times.

---

And as a general comment, if you're trying to get news a few hundred characters at a time, regardless of whether the source is liberal or conservative, you're not getting enough background for an informed opinion.

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LOL - Ari was stating a couple dates and a couple facts which is easy to fit into a tweet.

I'm not sure if you realize, but it's possible w/ technology to post a link in a tweet that takes you to another website where you can read the entire article outside of the tweet. It's amazing, that same article can also be in a newspaper which most people don't read anymore. So, I apologize for my mocking sarcasm but it's to show you that we all read articles posted in tweets, not just a few words in a tweet for news unless it's to post a few facts from a reliable source as it was in this case. But thanks for the lesson on where to get your news. Trust me, my news is 100 times more factual than anything Cinque or any of the radical liberals ever post on here.

riflebear said:

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cinque said:

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Is Trump's false claim about Germany importing 70% of their gas from Russia an example of his style or just another one of his outright lies?

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Poor Cinque - we should keep a running thread if Cinque ever posts any real factual news.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/behind-nord-stream-2-the-russia-to-germany-gas-pipeline-that-fueled-t.html

Germany is heavily reliant on Russia for natural gas. Russia provided between 50 percent and 75 percent of Germany's gas imports in 2017, according to Eurostat, the European Commission's statistics arm.

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Good post with solid information/ link

Apparently Trump was correct.

75 years after the end of WW2....its ridiculous that American taxpayers are paying over 60% of NATO's budget while member countries do multi billion dollar deals with the same country we are defending them against.

Those multi billions of dollars the US donates to NATO each year would be better spent on the needs of our own people.

Chuckle, I can post links too:

Mr. Trump said Germany "will be getting 60 to 70 percent of their energy from Russia."

In fact, that's the total amount of its energy needs that Germany gets from any foreign source, and even its gas market is highly diversified. Most of the rest of the gas it imports comes from the Netherlands and Norway.
A new branch of Russia's Nord Stream pipeline, mentioned by Mr. Trump, might push up the proportion of Germany's energy that comes from there, but probably not to the figure he gave.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/world/europe/trump-germany-russia-gas.html

Absolutely need to disband NATO

It was created to defend against a country and threat that no longer exists, USSR, and another waste of our tax dollars that the magnificent new president is exposing

Eliminate the lobbyists(bribers) that line the very few people(about 350-400 congress people) with our money stolen from us for NATO and the like

Lower our taxes or show us how it's spent wisely!

We don't need to disband NATO. It's useful to at least help keep Russian ambitions in check. It failed South Ossetia and Crimea, but it is still a structural impediment to Russia in theory and that theory is needed...it simply needs to be stronger and less theoretical.

The US having a hegemony is not bad in most cases, but in NATO, the EU needs to step up. For too long, not only have we been their piggy bank, but we've been the foil for their cowardice disguised as 'Peacefulness'. They point the finger at us when we take action most needed and call us warmongers all the while hoping we do the needful so they don't have to. If we had attacked the invading forces in Crimea, they would have privately cheered and publicly ridiculed us.

I think we need to find a way to force them into a conflict they can't ignore so they'll have to get their own hands dirty.

JusHappy2BeHere said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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cinque said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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I like it how he clearly has that Secretary General very nervous and almost scared. Trump is just the BOSS.

---

Chuckle, of what?

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Of you libs. All y'all have left is marching with signs and wearing pink ***** hats.

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Oh you regressives all you have left is your racism and hate for poor people

Welcome to white Nationalist America

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And that's what makes you libs so funny....you get offended by any little thing and start eluding to racism, sexism, homophobia, offense du jour, etc.. Y'all literally have zero power at the state or federal level to block anything. All y'all have left is to march with your little signs and wear your little pink hats or masks. Good try tho.

JusHappy2BeHere said:

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You are absolutely consumed with race.

JusHappy2BeHere said:

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He is focused on the wrong institutions. The electoral college is part of the Constitution and is apportioned according to population. 3 years ago all the analysis was about the incredibly slim pathway the GOP had to the White House because of the electoral college. The fact that Donald Trump figured out the path does not change its essential dynamic. When you start with California, New York and Illinois in the bag, you have a pretty good chance of capturing the presidency.

The Senate does encourage "minority rule" but it does so by the design of the founders. The Senate has always functioned as the government's brakeman, slowing rapid change. The filibuster rule added to that function. Either party only needed 41 Senators to stop something it perceived as really radical. Harry Reid threw that out for judicial appointments; if that led to Brett Kavanaugh, so be it.

The real injustice is in the House, which is supposed to be the most direct voice of the people. Gerrymandering and voter suppression are leading us to minority rule in that chamber that is not by constitutional design. In the process it destroys the balance the founders had in mind.