I have seen this development in my own Church and was curious what people's thoughts were on this?
Do you think the Bible supports this practice?
Is this simply a secular influence of the times creeping into the Church?
Is this contributing to driving men from your Church?

Canada2017 said:

---

If it was up to me ....women would be allowed to become Catholic priests .

But it's not .

---

Since you are Catholic, I am also curious about what you think of those who say Catholics are not real Christians because they worship Mary, use rosaries, give confession, etc. as they go against the Bible? Have you ever considered these things or is this the first you have heard of it?

BaylorFTW said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

If it was up to me ....women would be allowed to become Catholic priests .

But it's not .

---

Since you are Catholic, I am also curious about what you think of those who say Catholics are not real Christians because they worship Mary, use rosaries, give confession, etc. as they go against the Bible? Have you ever considered these things or is this the first you have heard of it?

---

A. Catholics do not worship Mary . A common lie about Catholics.
B. Bible clearly states priests have the right to hear confession and through God forgive sin.
C. Never heard any issue about rosaries before . First time for everything....especially on the internet.
D. Only the Catholic Church traces its Faith back to Peter....over 2000 years . All other Christian religions sprang from the Catholic Church ....fully 1500 years later ... the Reformation . 1500 years is one heck of a gap...to then claim 'we got it right' .
E. So Catholics are sort of like the New York Yankees of the 50's and 60's. Many folks hated the Yankees back then because they were the dominant baseball team . No one else really came close. Well ....for over 2000 years ......Catholics have been the Yankees . And it drives some folks right out of their cotton picking minds .

And I'm done here.....have fun.


Peace be with you.



Canada 2017

BaylorFTW said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

If it was up to me ....women would be allowed to become Catholic priests .

But it's not .

---

Since you are Catholic, I am also curious about what you think of those who say Catholics are not real Christians because they worship Mary, use rosaries, give confession, etc. as they go against the Bible? Have you ever considered these things or is this the first you have heard of it?

---

Catholics don't worship Mary. Understand what they actually do before you make comments like this.

BaylorFTW said:

---

I have seen this development in my own Church and was curious what people's thoughts were on this?
Do you think the Bible supports this practice?
Is this simply a secular influence of the times creeping into the Church?
Is this contributing to driving men from your Church?

---

The Bible doesn't support it, but of course all the churches referenced in the Bible were Catholic churches. Whether it's okay for Protestant churches might be another question since they don't have priests. I'd still be a bit wary, though.

Also, worth noting, it looks like close to or a majority of the churches now permit women to take leadership roles in the Church.

http://www2.cbeinternational.org/new/E-Journal/2007/07spring/denominations%20first%20installment--FINAL.pdf

Every first witness and evangelist of the good news of the empty tomb was a woman.
Women were the first God entrusted and empowered with that good news. "Go tell....!"

God is sovereign in love and grace and Godcalls who God-self wants to call.

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

Paul's churches had women leaders.

Priscilla and Lydia are mentioned. The church in Rome, which was not started by Paul, had a woman Paul describes as an "apostle."

So the Bible documents women leaders in the early church, among churches Paul founded and others. There's also archeological evidence that women were leaders in the early church.

And Paul makes reference to women preachers in Corinthians.

Perhaps those passages, for some churches, fall into the parts of the Bible my Uncle Parke, a Methodist missionary, called the "neglectionary."

If G-d calls a male or a female to a position in a church I do not wish to stand in the way.

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

No.

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

Yoak, I see a bunch of old women in the Baptist Church with middle aged men preaching.
The Methodist Church might have women preachers but they have men in the pews.

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Who gives a flip what Paul thinks? Paul is not Jesus. Paul never even met Jesus.

Midnight Rider said:

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Who gives a flip what Paul thinks? Paul is not Jesus. Paul never even met Jesus.

---

He did meet Jesus, according to his own report, but that's neither here nor there. There were certainly women leaders in the early church and there have continued to be throughout the history of the church. When Paul had a serious theological problem with something, he tended to address it forcefully and directly. This does not appear to be one of those issues for him, nor is it for me.

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

Canada2017 said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

If it was up to me ....women would be allowed to become Catholic priests .

But it's not .

---

Since you are Catholic, I am also curious about what you think of those who say Catholics are not real Christians because they worship Mary, use rosaries, give confession, etc. as they go against the Bible? Have you ever considered these things or is this the first you have heard of it?

---

A. Catholics do not worship Mary . A common lie about Catholics.
B. Bible clearly states priests have the right to hear confession and through God forgive sin.
C. Never heard any issue about rosaries before . First time for everything....especially on the internet.
D. Only the Catholic Church traces its Faith back to Peter....over 2000 years . All other Christian religions sprang from the Catholic Church ....fully 1500 years later ... the Reformation . 1500 years is one heck of a gap...to then claim 'we got it right' .
E. So Catholics are sort of like the New York Yankees of the 50's and 60's. Many folks hated the Yankees back then because they were the dominant baseball team . No one else really came close. Well ....for over 2000 years ......Catholics have been the Yankees . And it drives some folks right out of their cotton picking minds .

And I'm done here.....have fun.


Peace be with you.



Canada 2017

---

YOU HERETIC!!!
How many southern Catholics and Boston Catholics will now leave their faith due to your statement? Have you no shame?

contrario said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

If it was up to me ....women would be allowed to become Catholic priests .

But it's not .

---

Since you are Catholic, I am also curious about what you think of those who say Catholics are not real Christians because they worship Mary, use rosaries, give confession, etc. as they go against the Bible? Have you ever considered these things or is this the first you have heard of it?

---

Catholics don't worship Mary. Understand what they actually do before you make comments like this.

---

/s/
Muslims

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

I don't blame you for not wanting to be patronized in the same way that you tend to patronize others.

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

How clear was Paul on how women should conduct themselves when they have discerned to call of God to preach the Gospel?

https://www.franciscanmedia.org/saint-paul-and-women-a-mixed-record/

A friend of mine once told me she couldn't understand why I would write about Paul, since he was so against women in the Church. The passage she had in mind was 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."

Quote:

---

Most contemporary biblical scholars maintain that these verses could not have come from Paul. They contradict his acceptance and commendation of women's leadership. They also directly contradict an earlier passage in this same letter, where Paul assumes that women do both pray and prophesy in the Corinthian community (11:5).

---

How, then, did these verses come to be included in the letter? Most likely they were teachings from a later time that eventually were copied into Paul's letter. Those who copied texts before there were designated chapters and verses at times confused someone's marginal notes as part of the original document. The notes then became part of the newly copied text.

The silencing of women does not make sense coming from Paul. Women such as Prisca, Phoebe and Junia could not have functioned as Church leaders and apostles if they were not allowed to speak in public.

The teaching in 1 Corinthians reflects the attitudes found in 1 Timothy, a letter attributed to Paul but actually not written until the early part of the second century. By this time, at least in some local communities, there was more concern for order and specified positions. In the pastoral letters (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus), we find regulations concerning deacons, bishops and elders. The ideal here is a well-regulated household.

While Paul acknowledges women's ministry and leadership in house churches, 1 Timothy maintains that "a woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control" (2:11).

Guy Noir said:

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If G-d calls a male or a female to a position in a church I do not wish to stand in the way.

---

That was my feel for it. You can't claim the "still small voice" only talks to men.

D. C. Bear said:

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Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

---

Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

---

I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

---

Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

---

The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

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The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

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Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

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I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

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I don't blame you for not wanting to be patronized in the same way that you tend to patronize others.

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Do you have anything substantive to say on this issue?

Or is making patronizing personal attacks all you've got?

Jinx 2 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Jinx 2 said:

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YoakDaddy said:

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Being a pastor leading a church, no. Teaching, yes. Paul is very clear on the criteria for being a pastor and a deacon in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

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Over the past 30 years in the Methodist church, I've had male pastors about half the time and female pastors about half the time, The pluses and minuses of their job performance had absolutely nothing to do with their gender. For example, based on cultural stereotypes, you'd think a female pastor would be better at pastoral case (visiting people), but we had a woman pastor who utterly failed in that category, while our gruff old male pastor, who went to divinity school at 40 after a successful career as a lawyer, excelled at that.

Churches, countries, any institution that doesn't have balanced leadership where men and women have equal representation suffer in myriad ways. In this country, it's poor-quality public schools, limited family/maternity leave that reflects an attitude that women who have children shouldn't work outside the home, lack of affordable healthcare and child care that's really expensive or really poor quality.

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I don't care about their performance. I just gave you the verses that Paul set out as criteria. I can't help it if your church doesn't follow it. Thats not surprising to me since the Methodist church grapples with the question of ordaining homosexual pastors.

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Paul did not exclude women from church leadership.

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The criteria listed below are from Paul. I can't help it if you don't like it. I see no problem with women leading ministries within a church (music minister, youth minister, pastoral care, minister of administration, etc.), but for the overall leadership of a church body, Paul is clear......Paul refers to an overseer (a pastor-some versions say bishop) as a male "faithful to his wife". Even other versions outside of NIV use the male pronoun (KJV NASB, The Voice, ISV, etc.).
1 Timothy 3:1-13
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

---

The consensus among biblical scholars is that Paul did not write First Timothy--that it was written decades after his death. The same people who tried to erase the history of women's leadership in the Christian Church (by defacing murals showing a woman leading with Paul, among other things) tried to put words in Paul's mouth long after his death.

---

Typical response.....don't like the message; attempt to cast doubt. I can't help it you don't like the criteria.

---

I don't agree with your message. Plenty of other Christians/Christian churches don't, either.

Nor does every church agree with your narrow and very literal interpretation of scripture.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" stance you take is one of the reasons my flirtation with evangelical Christianity in my teens was over by the end of my freshman year in college.

The great thing is that, in a country with freedom of (and, in theory, from) religion, I can choose a church that doesn't hold to narrow beliefs I think are wrong and misguided, or choose no church at all, without fear.

What I find, however, is that men who go to churches where women have second-class/subservient status are harder to deal with in the workplace, in business and on forums like this. What that means, for me, is that I steer clear of businesses, workplaces and churches where such attitudes are prevalent, because I don't want to be discounted, paid less, or patronized. You probably do the same. So we just get more polarized.

---

I don't blame you for not wanting to be patronized in the same way that you tend to patronize others.

---

Do you have anything substantive to say on this issue?

Or is making patronizing personal attacks all you've got?

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I've already stated my position in support of women as ministers in churches. Is that not substantive enough?

Waco1947 said:

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Every first witness and evangelist of the good news of the empty tomb was a woman.
Women were the first ones that God entrusted and empowered with that good news. "Go tell....!"

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And God is sovereign in love and grace and God calls who God-self wants to call.