I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?

Yes, but I suspect my conception of inspiration differs from others'. Stated simply, I believe the Bible we have is the Bible God wants us to have. Inspiration was present in the original writing, in the editorial revisions, in the copying, and in every other stage of transmitting the text to us today, including the church councils that chose which ones were or were not canon. Inspiration is present when each of us reads that text today. I don't think there is "inspiration" in the translation process from ancient manuscripts that we have to modern translations such as KJV, NIV, etc. And I don't think of inspiration as meaning God took over the minds and bodies of the writers. It's more in the vein that they were somehow channeling the message God had for their audience at the time of writing.

2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?

Fully human, fully divine. It's still hard to understand what that means in terms of Jesus's inner knowledge and thoughts.

3. Can you lose your salvation?

This has real potential to be a semantic question rather than an actual how-things-work question. I don't believe you can lose your salvation. I do believe that people can become genuine believers and then choose later in life to stop following/believing. In that way, they can give up their salvation. This is the most consistent conception for me as a believer that God gives us the free will to follow Him or not. I find unpersuasive the sophistry of well-he-wasn't-really-saved-in-the-first-place.

4. What is your view on the rapture?

I don't care enough to worry about this. Jesus will return someday to begin the end of the world we know and its transformation into the world God truly intends for us. How that happens is still a mystery.

5. Do you believe in original sin?

Yes, in the sense that I believe that sin is inherent in our nature. Whether original sin came to us via a historical Adam and Eve in the literal sense as told in the Bible - probably not. That's likely a sacred myth God gave the ancients to help them understand their sin natures. But I could be wrong about that - it may have happened exactly as described in the Bible as if it were a literal account.

6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?

No.

7. Do you believe in evolution?

Of course. The question is really getting at origins of life, though, I assume. In this regard, I am best described as a theistic evolutionist. God created life in the context of a universe governed by natural laws. Life has mostly evolved within the framework God created.

8. Do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes, but it's more confusing the more I learn about it and think about.

9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?

Yes, though I don't get worried that some of them might merely have appeared as miracles when they were actually the operation of God's natural laws rather than God's actions in contravention of His natural laws.

10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

I converted as a young adult. I started with the existence of God and then learned the message of Christianity. In this regard, it's possible that my belief in Christianity is culturally contingent - i.e., I am Christian because I embraced the belief in God in a Christian society. I continue to believe in Christianity both because my personal experience tells me that it is valid and because of my continued learning and study of what Christianity means in all of its diversity. Finally, I find that my Christian commitment has made me a better person, such that I think I would continue the lifestyle of Christianity even if someone could conclusively prove to me that God isn't real and the story of Jesus is a mere fable.

Pablo Fanque said:

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10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

I converted as a young adult. I started with the existence of God and then learned the message of Christianity. In this regard, it's possible that my belief in Christianity is culturally contingent - i.e., I am Christian because I embraced the belief in God in a Christian society. I continue to believe in Christianity both because my personal experience tells me that it is valid and because of my continued learning and study of what Christianity means in all of its diversity. Finally, I find that my Christian commitment has made me a better person, such that I think I would continue the lifestyle of Christianity even if someone could conclusively prove to me that God isn't real and the story of Jesus is a mere fable.

---

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore? - Yes
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? -Divine figure
3. Can you lose your salvation? -Yes, I believe works are needed.
4. What is your view on the rapture? -Pre tribulation rapture
5. Do you believe in original sin? -I lean towards No at the moment.
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? -Unsure
7. Do you believe in evolution? -I believe in microevolution but not macroevolution
8. Do you believe in the Trinity? -Yes
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? -Yes
10. Why do you believe in Christianity? -I believe in the story of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore? YES
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? FULLY GOD FULLY MAN
3. Can you lose your salvation? I THINK YOU CAN WALK AWAY FROM IT
4. What is your view on the rapture? PRE-TRIB
5. Do you believe in original sin? IF BEING BORN WITH A SIN NATURE IS "ORIGINAL SIN", THEN YES.
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? DON'T KNOW AND DON'T CARE. GOD CREATED IT EITHER WAY.
7. Do you believe in evolution? ADAPTATION YES. EVOLUTION NO. I DON'T THINK DNA EVOLVES
8. Do you believe in the Trinity? YES
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? YES
10. Why do you believe in Christianity? AFTER WALKING AWAY FOR 30 YEARS, I HAVE "RE-LEARNED" THE TENETS OF CHRISTIANITY AND TRUST IN THEM. CHRISTIANITY MAKES SENSE TO ME WHERE OTHER FAITHS DO NOT.

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
Yes, the Bible is given to us by God, to help us avoid being deceived by the world and the evil done by those who would lead us away from God if they could.

2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
Jesus was, and is, the only-begotten Son of God, one in essence with the Father and therefore the sole being able to serve as mediator between God and Man, and heal the fatal wound of our sin.

3. Can you lose your salvation?
No. Salvation is from God's choice, and God will not offer Salvation then remove it. Those who receive Salvation never lose it, though some may fool themselves into thinking they are saved when they remain fallen.

4. What is your view on the rapture?
The Bible tells us of many times where God intervened to save His people. It was always in times of terrible peril for believers. In the final days before Christ's return, evil will be allowed its reign on all of the earth, and such a place will be hellish by any standard. So, God will remove His people, though I suspect the tribulation prior to that rescue will be harsh.

5. Do you believe in original sin?
Yes. There is something evil in human nature, which delights in harming others and in doing wrong, rebellion. There is no valid purpose to that instinct, so I do not think it was something we were meant to have in our character. This also why God is able to intervene through Christ humans were meant to have free will but Satan cheated, so God found a way to reach Man even though sinful man cannot stand in the presence of the Holy Lord.

6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
Well, I believe God made the world in 6 days keeping in mind that because the Sun and Moon were created after the process started, a "day" could be as long as a few million years. Apply that definition of "day" to "year" and it becomes very flexible!

7. Do you believe in evolution?
Within a species, yes. Perhaps within a genus. Beyond that, most of the theory is lacking credible evidence.

8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
Tricky question. I believe that God has dimensions which are beyond human comprehension. Any absolute entity would possess attributes beyond the understanding of beings limited to lower dimensions. I believe the Trinity is a reasonable effort to understand that God is One, yet is not limited by human rules.

9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
Yes, completely. In part because I have experienced miracles personally, and that of course colors my opinion.

10. Why do you believe in Christianity?
To the best of my knowledge, everyone likes to be thought of as a good person, and we generally like to help other people, even when we receive no benefit from it except the pleasure that we have helped someone, even at cost to ourselves. I know I would do anything necessary to protect and benefit my family. It is therefore perfectly sound reasoning to me that the creator who made us, would do what is needed to help us recover from our mistakes, even at great cost and pain to Himself. The account of Jesus in the Gospels is remarkably different from any myth before him he was not rich, not handsome, not especially strong nor even charismatic his own followers fled the day he was arrested, and he died a humiliating death yet the group which deserted him came together again, and grew, and shared their stories, and changed the world against all odds. I have seen wicked men changed into good men, I have seen dictators unable to stop the spread of prayer groups. And I have felt the presence of a gentle teacher who refuses to give up on me, long after I gave up on myself. So now I share what I have experienced, in hopes that others may enjoy the same blessings I received.

I witness poorly, but gratefully.

Oldbear83 said:

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9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
Yes, completely. In part because I have experienced miracles personally, and that of course colors my opinion.

---

Thank you. Some thoughtful responses. If you don't mind sharing, I would be curious to hear about the miracles you have experienced.

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore? Like everybody else (yes, everybody else), I pick and choose those parts which are compatible with my lifestyle.

2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? I wish I knew.

3. Can you lose your salvation? Don't believe in the concept of salvation.

4. What is your view on the rapture? Absolute total nonsense.

5. Do you believe in original sin? Nope.

6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? You have got to be kidding.

7. Do you believe in evolution? Of course.

8. Do you believe in the Trinity? Too nebulous a concept for my thinking.

9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? Stranger things have happened.

10. Why do you believe in Christianity? " I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene." - A. Einstein.

Midnight Rider said:

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1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore? Like everybody else (yes, everybody else), I pick and choose those parts which are compatible with my lifestyle.

---

Thank you for your detailed thoughts. I am curious which specific things you believe people aren't following? Also, do you think you can really claim everybody else given you can't know what everyone else is doing or not doing?

BaylorFTW said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
Yes, completely. In part because I have experienced miracles personally, and that of course colors my opinion.

---

Thank you. Some thoughtful responses. If you don't mind sharing, I would be curious to hear about the miracles you have experienced.

---

Two occasions come to mind quickly:

July 1994 - Driving home from work, I was turning left with the green arrow at an intersection by I-59 and was broadsided by a drunk driver who was speeding with his lights off (according to 2 witnesses). My car flipped 3 times before landing on the driver side and skidding against the concrete embankment.

I was stunned and disoriented, but clearly heard a male voice in the car as if he was next to me say clearly "turn off your engine". As I turned off the engine, I heard a rush of fluid and realized from the smell that the gasoline tank has been ruptured and spilled into the interior of the car. A police car just happened to be down the street and arrived quickly. Despite the spill, the gasoline did not ignite, although the officer at the scene told me I was lucky because the engine was smoking. Because the car had been struck on the passenger side but was laying on the driver side, I was trapped in the wreck until the fire department could cut me out. Despite the impact destroying my car, I emerged from the accident with only cuts from glass and the shock of the accident.


August 2001 - My wife was in Hong Kong taking our daughter to see her grandmom (I had to work on a project and could not get time off), and my daughter came down with bacterial meningitis. My wife took her to the hospital, and I learned from the doctor that they were worried because my daughter has a fever of 105 and nothing was bringing it down. I prayed about it - not much else I could do - but I also told my pastor who started a prayer circle at 10 AM Houston time the next morning. That would have been 11 PM Hong Kong time, which is important, because at 1030 AM my time my wife called to say the fever had broken "on its own", dropping rapidly to 100 and settling there.

My daughter had a fever of above 104 for 36 straight hours, as part of bacterial meningitis. Not surprisingly, the doctors warned my wife to expect serious consequences for my daughter, but she completely recovered without any seizures or evidence of serious harm. And the fever broke about 15 minutes from when the prayer circle started.

I understand that someone who does not believe will call that coincidence. I know that I have experienced an awful lot of such 'coincidences', and for myself I take them as God trying real hard to get my attention. So I listen and I look, and I hear and I see.

And so I believe.

Oldbear83 said:

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BaylorFTW said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
Yes, completely. In part because I have experienced miracles personally, and that of course colors my opinion.

---

Thank you. Some thoughtful responses. If you don't mind sharing, I would be curious to hear about the miracles you have experienced.

---

Two occasions come to mind quickly:

July 1994 - Driving home from work, I was turning left with the green arrow at an intersection by I-59 and was broadsided by a drunk driver who was speeding with his lights off (according to 2 witnesses). My car flipped 3 times before landing on the driver side and skidding against the concrete embankment.

I was stunned and disoriented, but clearly heard a male voice in the car as if he was next to me say clearly "turn off your engine". As I turned off the engine, I heard a rush of fluid and realized from the smell that the gasoline tank has been ruptured and spilled into the interior of the car. A police car just happened to be down the street and arrived quickly. Despite the spill, the gasoline did not ignite, although the officer at the scene told me I was lucky because the engine was smoking. Because the car had been struck on the passenger side but was laying on the driver side, I was trapped in the wreck until the fire department could cut me out. Despite the impact destroying my car, I emerged from the accident with only cuts from glass and the shock of the accident.


August 2001 - My wife was in Hong Kong taking our daughter to see her grandmom (I had to work on a project and could not get time off), and my daughter came down with bacterial meningitis. My wife took her to the hospital, and I learned from the doctor that they were worried because my daughter has a fever of 105 and nothing was bringing it down. I prayed about it - not much else I could do - but I also told my pastor who started a prayer circle at 10 AM Houston time the next morning. That would have been 11 PM Hong Kong time, which is important, because at 1030 AM my time my wife called to say the fever had broken "on its own", dropping rapidly to 100 and settling there.

My daughter had a fever of above 104 for 36 straight hours, as part of bacterial meningitis. Not surprisingly, the doctors warned my wife to expect serious consequences for my daughter, but she completely recovered without any seizures or evidence of serious harm. And the fever broke about 15 minutes from when the prayer circle started.

I understand that someone who does not believe will call that coincidence. I know that I have experienced an awful lot of such 'coincidences', and for myself I take them as God trying real hard to get my attention. So I listen and I look, and I hear and I see.

And so I believe.

---

Thank you for sharing. Powerful stuff. Glad you and your daughter made it out ok. Even better that it strengthened your faith in the process.

Thanks FTW.

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. How do you define "inspired"? As in, God controlled the writers' pens (kind of like the special glasses Joseph Smith was given by the angel Moroni to write the book of Mormon), where it's as if the writers of various books were taking dictation? Or that the writers simply sought to write, to the best of their ability and comprehension, their understanding of the history of the Jews and Jesus' life? I have lots of questions beyond who wrote various books and why, including how books were selected for the canon, how they were edited early on and by whom, and how translation affects our understanding. I think the Bible is a powerful collection of history, poetry, proverbs and meditations. I don't think it's inerrant; no human construct is. I do think it contains lots of truth, lots of thought provoking stories and raises more questions than it answers.

2. I no longer believe in a divine God. I think this life is all we have. I believe Jesus had a singular vision for living in community. When I did believe, I believed that the Old Testament was, in part, a story about God, a parent, trying to figure out why his children--men and women--were so troublesome and willful, and that Jesus was God's way of actually living in human flesh and experiencing life as a physical thing--eating, sleeping, exhaustion, childhood, adolescence, even desire, so He would understand us better and be better able to lead us.

3. When I moved in the 8th grade, my best friend's mother asked me if I was saved. I told her "yes." She was in doubt of this because I was a Methodist, and Faye's family was Baptist. Since I believe this life is all we have, I believe we are our own salvation and that of our children. The world is what we leave them and how we raise them. I am sick about the world we are leaving our children--warming, rising seas, a massive extinction event. We have been poor stewards under any scenario or regime of beliefs.

4. I don't believe in an afterlife.

5. I'm a lot more comfortable with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than I am with original sin.

6. Lord, no.

7. I don't think evolution is something you "believe in." It's a fact, and it's occurring now. People choose NOT to believe facts. Like evolution.

8. The trinity makes sense to me--God the all powerful/all knowing, Jesus who experienced life and death to share and understand human experience, and the kernel of spirit that is in us that makes us believe there's a higher purpose and a supreme being.

9. I don't discount miracles. Nor do I think belief in them, or belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, should be some sort of litmus test for faith of any sort. I suspect they often have practical explanations. I suspect the body has more power to heal itself than we know or understand--the placebo effect. I also believe that self-healing power isn't unlimited because we're physical beings.

10. I'm turning this question around: Why don't I believe in Christianity? So many reasons it's hard to list them all here. Here we are, a minor planet circling an ordinary star in a single galaxy which is among millions in a huge universe, where life evolved and where humans have been so successful we are about to smother the planet. Christianity seems self-important and prideful to me. I don't believe we are God's chosen people or the saved. I think we are highly evolved life forms that don't realize our interdependence on other life forms and our planet at the peril of future generations. I don't think the scifi books where humans travel easily among the stars and thrive on numerous planets are realistic. I think we are evolved for this planet and it for us--it's our home, and we're fouling it. In part because several religions elevate humans to "dominion." There's also the "every religion thinks they have the truth" element. If you truly believe that, then Mormons are heretics, jews are damned, etc etc. Christianity and other religions make man and his sin and his dominion and his control over his environment and the rules he must follow much too important, and they ignore the "be still" and stewardship parts of the narrative. We could all stand a more humbling perspective of mortality and vulnerability and how do we work together to be better stewards of the only habitable home we know for sure we will ever have. Sorry, this is only a partial, unsatisfying answer, but it's a start. Thanks for a good question I can think on for some months.

Jinx 2 said:

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BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. How do you define "inspired"? As in, God controlled the writers' pens (kind of like the special glasses Joseph Smith was given by the angel Moroni to write the book of Mormon), where it's as if the writers of various books were taking dictation? Or that the writers simply sought to write, to the best of their ability and comprehension, their understanding of the history of the Jews and Jesus' life? I have lots of questions beyond who wrote various books and why, including how books were selected for the canon, how they were edited early on and by whom, and how translation affects our understanding. I think the Bible is a powerful collection of history, poetry, proverbs and meditations. I don't think it's inerrant; no human construct is. I do think it contains lots of truth, lots of thought provoking stories and raises more questions than it answers.

2. I no longer believe in a divine God. I think this life is all we have. I believe Jesus had a singular vision for living in community. When I did believe, I believed that the Old Testament was, in part, a story about God, a parent, trying to figure out why his children--men and women--were so troublesome and willful, and that Jesus was God's way of actually living in human flesh and experiencing life as a physical thing--eating, sleeping, exhaustion, childhood, adolescence, even desire, so He would understand us better and be better able to lead us.

3. When I moved in the 8th grade, my best friend's mother asked me if I was saved. I told her "yes." She was in doubt of this because I was a Methodist, and Faye's family was Baptist. Since I believe this life is all we have, I believe we are our own salvation and that of our children. The world is what we leave them and how we raise them. I am sick about the world we are leaving our children--warming, rising seas, a massive extinction event. We have been poor stewards under any scenario or regime of beliefs.

4. I don't believe in an afterlife.

5. I'm a lot more comfortable with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than I am with original sin.

6. Lord, no.

7. I don't think evolution is something you "believe in." It's a fact, and it's occurring now. People choose NOT to believe facts. Like evolution.

8. The trinity makes sense to me--God the all powerful/all knowing, Jesus who experienced life and death to share and understand human experience, and the kernel of spirit that is in us that makes us believe there's a higher purpose and a supreme being.

9. I don't discount miracles. Nor do I think belief in them, or belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, should be some sort of litmus test for faith of any sort. I suspect they often have practical explanations. I suspect the body has more power to heal itself than we know or understand--the placebo effect. I also believe that self-healing power isn't unlimited because we're physical beings.

10. I'm turning this question around: Why don't I believe in Christianity? So many reasons it's hard to list them all here. Here we are, a minor planet in a single galaxy in a huge universe circling an ordinary star, where life evolved and where humans have been so successful we are about to smother the planet. Christianity seems self-important and prideful to me. I don't believe we are God's chosen people or the saved. I think we are highly evolved life forms that don't realize our interdependence on other life forms and our planet at the peril of future generations. I don't think the scifi books where humans travel easily among the stars and thrive on numerous planets are realistic. I think we are evolved for this planet and it for us--it's our home, and we're fouling it. In part because several religions elevate humans to "dominion." There's also the "every religion thinks they have the truth" element. If you truly believe that, then Mormons are heretics, jews are damned, etc etc. Christianity and other religions make man and his sin and his dominion and his control over his environment and the rules he must follow much too important, and they ignore the "be still" and stewardship parts of the narrative. We could all stand a more humbling perspective of mortality and vulnerability and how do we work together to be better stewards of the only habitable home we know for sure we will ever have. Sorry, this is only a partial, unsatisfying answer, but it's a start. Thanks for a good question I can think on for some months.

---

I agree completely with your answers to 1. - 8. & 10.
9. I don't believe there is any evidence of a miracle, which requires the suspension of the natural physical laws of the Universe. People interpret good fortune, and narrow misses with disaster as miracles, when they are simply what they are, essentially anecdotal and coincidental results. There simply is no evidence for miracles.

TexasScientist said:

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9. I don't believe there is any evidence of a miracle, which requires the suspension of the natural physical laws of the Universe. People interpret good fortune, and narrow misses with disaster as miracles, when they are simply what they are, essentially anecdotal and coincidental results. There simply is no evidence for miracles.

---

But you are showing a strong bias against a supernatural explanation. So whenever evidence of miracles is presented, you are likely to dismiss it out of hand as it must not be so. For example, even when science is unable to prove an incident has some non-supernatural reason, you will simply say the reason just hasn't been discovered yet rather than acknowledge it could be supernatural and a bonafide miracle.

Jinx 2 said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. How do you define "inspired"? As in, God controlled the writers' pens (kind of like the special glasses Joseph Smith was given by the angel Moroni to write the book of Mormon), where it's as if the writers of various books were taking dictation? Or that the writers simply sought to write, to the best of their ability and comprehension, their understanding of the history of the Jews and Jesus' life? I have lots of questions beyond who wrote various books and why, including how books were selected for the canon, how they were edited early on and by whom, and how translation affects our understanding. I think the Bible is a powerful collection of history, poetry, proverbs and meditations. I don't think it's inerrant; no human construct is. I do think it contains lots of truth, lots of thought provoking stories and raises more questions than it answers.

2. I no longer believe in a divine God. I think this life is all we have. I believe Jesus had a singular vision for living in community. When I did believe, I believed that the Old Testament was, in part, a story about God, a parent, trying to figure out why his children--men and women--were so troublesome and willful, and that Jesus was God's way of actually living in human flesh and experiencing life as a physical thing--eating, sleeping, exhaustion, childhood, adolescence, even desire, so He would understand us better and be better able to lead us.

3. When I moved in the 8th grade, my best friend's mother asked me if I was saved. I told her "yes." She was in doubt of this because I was a Methodist, and Faye's family was Baptist. Since I believe this life is all we have, I believe we are our own salvation and that of our children. The world is what we leave them and how we raise them. I am sick about the world we are leaving our children--warming, rising seas, a massive extinction event. We have been poor stewards under any scenario or regime of beliefs.

4. I don't believe in an afterlife.

5. I'm a lot more comfortable with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than I am with original sin.

6. Lord, no.

7. I don't think evolution is something you "believe in." It's a fact, and it's occurring now. People choose NOT to believe facts. Like evolution.

8. The trinity makes sense to me--God the all powerful/all knowing, Jesus who experienced life and death to share and understand human experience, and the kernel of spirit that is in us that makes us believe there's a higher purpose and a supreme being.

9. I don't discount miracles. Nor do I think belief in them, or belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, should be some sort of litmus test for faith of any sort. I suspect they often have practical explanations. I suspect the body has more power to heal itself than we know or understand--the placebo effect. I also believe that self-healing power isn't unlimited because we're physical beings.

10. I'm turning this question around: Why don't I believe in Christianity? So many reasons it's hard to list them all here. Here we are, a minor planet circling an ordinary star in a single galaxy which is among millions in a huge universe, where life evolved and where humans have been so successful we are about to smother the planet. Christianity seems self-important and prideful to me. I don't believe we are God's chosen people or the saved. I think we are highly evolved life forms that don't realize our interdependence on other life forms and our planet at the peril of future generations. I don't think the scifi books where humans travel easily among the stars and thrive on numerous planets are realistic. I think we are evolved for this planet and it for us--it's our home, and we're fouling it. In part because several religions elevate humans to "dominion." There's also the "every religion thinks they have the truth" element. If you truly believe that, then Mormons are heretics, jews are damned, etc etc. Christianity and other religions make man and his sin and his dominion and his control over his environment and the rules he must follow much too important, and they ignore the "be still" and stewardship parts of the narrative. We could all stand a more humbling perspective of mortality and vulnerability and how do we work together to be better stewards of the only habitable home we know for sure we will ever have. Sorry, this is only a partial, unsatisfying answer, but it's a start. Thanks for a good question I can think on for some months.

---

Thank you for your detailed explanations.
If you get the time, please help me better understand your worldview, what do you think are the facts concerning evolution (I am talking macroevolution here)? What is your cause before evolution? Big Bang?

I look forward to hearing your fully thought out response on why you don't believe in Christianity. In regard to your thought that every religion thinks they have the truth. Here, is something to consider. why can't one religion be the correct way and the others be wrong? Doctors claim that Isoniazid is the only cure for Tuberculosis. What if that claim is true? Would it really be self important and prideful or narrow minded for doctors to claim this?

Also, all these religions have contradictory claims so they can't all be right. But rather than just assuming they all must be wrong, wouldn't it be wiser to investigate each religion to see if one of them is true?

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore? Do you mean were writers of every bookin the Canon inspired by God?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? Divine
3. Can you lose your salvation? Yes
4. What is your view on the rapture? Non essential Doctrinal construct
5. Do you believe in original sin? Yes
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? No
7. Do you believe in evolution? Yes
8. Do you believe in the Trinity? Yes
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? Moreso in the God of the Bible who could perform those miracles if He so chose
10. Why do you believe in Christianity? it's reasonable to believe that God exists

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. How do you define "inspired"? As in, God controlled the writers' pens (kind of like the special glasses Joseph Smith was given by the angel Moroni to write the book of Mormon), where it's as if the writers of various books were taking dictation? Or that the writers simply sought to write, to the best of their ability and comprehension, their understanding of the history of the Jews and Jesus' life? I have lots of questions beyond who wrote various books and why, including how books were selected for the canon, how they were edited early on and by whom, and how translation affects our understanding. I think the Bible is a powerful collection of history, poetry, proverbs and meditations. I don't think it's inerrant; no human construct is. I do think it contains lots of truth, lots of thought provoking stories and raises more questions than it answers.

2. I no longer believe in a divine God. I think this life is all we have. I believe Jesus had a singular vision for living in community. When I did believe, I believed that the Old Testament was, in part, a story about God, a parent, trying to figure out why his children--men and women--were so troublesome and willful, and that Jesus was God's way of actually living in human flesh and experiencing life as a physical thing--eating, sleeping, exhaustion, childhood, adolescence, even desire, so He would understand us better and be better able to lead us.

3. When I moved in the 8th grade, my best friend's mother asked me if I was saved. I told her "yes." She was in doubt of this because I was a Methodist, and Faye's family was Baptist. Since I believe this life is all we have, I believe we are our own salvation and that of our children. The world is what we leave them and how we raise them. I am sick about the world we are leaving our children--warming, rising seas, a massive extinction event. We have been poor stewards under any scenario or regime of beliefs.

4. I don't believe in an afterlife.

5. I'm a lot more comfortable with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than I am with original sin.

6. Lord, no.

7. I don't think evolution is something you "believe in." It's a fact, and it's occurring now. People choose NOT to believe facts. Like evolution.

8. The trinity makes sense to me--God the all powerful/all knowing, Jesus who experienced life and death to share and understand human experience, and the kernel of spirit that is in us that makes us believe there's a higher purpose and a supreme being.

9. I don't discount miracles. Nor do I think belief in them, or belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, should be some sort of litmus test for faith of any sort. I suspect they often have practical explanations. I suspect the body has more power to heal itself than we know or understand--the placebo effect. I also believe that self-healing power isn't unlimited because we're physical beings.

10. I'm turning this question around: Why don't I believe in Christianity? So many reasons it's hard to list them all here. Here we are, a minor planet circling an ordinary star in a single galaxy which is among millions in a huge universe, where life evolved and where humans have been so successful we are about to smother the planet. Christianity seems self-important and prideful to me. I don't believe we are God's chosen people or the saved. I think we are highly evolved life forms that don't realize our interdependence on other life forms and our planet at the peril of future generations. I don't think the scifi books where humans travel easily among the stars and thrive on numerous planets are realistic. I think we are evolved for this planet and it for us--it's our home, and we're fouling it. In part because several religions elevate humans to "dominion." There's also the "every religion thinks they have the truth" element. If you truly believe that, then Mormons are heretics, jews are damned, etc etc. Christianity and other religions make man and his sin and his dominion and his control over his environment and the rules he must follow much too important, and they ignore the "be still" and stewardship parts of the narrative. We could all stand a more humbling perspective of mortality and vulnerability and how do we work together to be better stewards of the only habitable home we know for sure we will ever have. Sorry, this is only a partial, unsatisfying answer, but it's a start. Thanks for a good question I can think on for some months.

---

Thank you for your detailed explanations.
If you get the time, please help me better understand your worldview, what do you think are the facts concerning evolution (I am talking macroevolution here)? What is your cause before evolution? Big Bang?

I look forward to hearing your fully thought out response on why you don't believe in Christianity. In regard to your thought that every religion thinks they have the truth. Here, is something to consider. why can't one religion be the correct way and the others be wrong? Doctors claim that Isoniazid is the only cure for Tuberculosis. What if that claim is true? Would it really be self important and prideful or narrow minded for doctors to claim this?

Also, all these religions have contradictory claims so they can't all be right. But rather than just assuming they all must be wrong, wouldn't it be wiser to investigate each religion to see if one of them is true?

---

First, my views are....mine, and mine alone. I neither have to prove nor disprove the existence of God in this thread, and I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone else to share my beliefs. You ask a set of questions about beliefs. I answered them honestly for me. You may "look forward to hearing [my] fully thought out response" to my beliefs, but this thread is not a homework assignment. It's a discussion.

I really hate the word "worldview." I don't think anyone on the planet is capable of a "worldview." We come at life with lots of perspectives drilled in starting in infancy, and--I believe--a few hard-wired ones, like sexuality. If you've ever spent time in China, you slowly realize exactly how different the perspective of an American raised in a society where freedom of speech and thought and agency and individual rights are so highly valued we won't as a society restrict gun rights despite almost weekly mass shootings is from that of a Chinese citizen raised in a society that values group harmony and stability so much that the government can dictate a one-child policy that infringes on one of the most basic human impulses--to reproduce--with widespread compliance and acceptance.

Many faith traditions dictate a very rigid set of beliefs (in the United Methodist Church, we recite the Apostle's creed) with total intolerance of doubt. Questioning basic fundamentals of the faith, like the virgin birth, is not allowed. Some fundamentalist religions, like Jehovah's Witnesses, discourage education, because the more you know, the more you realize you don't know, and you keep asking questions. I'll still be asking questions the day I die. There's a strong possibility my view has evolved for that reason alone.

I grew up in the United Methodist Church, a Christian tradition that's not Calvinist, so I didn't learn early on that my every move was already pre-ordained, as some faith traditions teach. Slowly, thanks to hard life experiences and lots of reading and thought and watching how religion divides more than unites and how various religious traditions allocate power and abuse their own believers as well as outsiders and how churches operate, inside and out, over the past 20 years, I concluded that religion is a human construct we use to meet a number of needs: Consolidate power, gain control over a large number of people, have a good excuse to persecute nonbelievers or people of other faiths, condemn whole classes (gays) or (more in the past) other races of people as heathen/the other, control women and reproduction, and finally, build community, offer traditions and support that help us deal with birth, death, marriage and other important life events, and give people hope and comfort and purpose and solace because randomness is scary. We emphasize the positive purposes I've listed last and ignore the darker purposes for which religion is used every day.

That's the best answer I can give you right now, and I'm not looking for an argument or debate over whether my particular views are right or wrong or justified. You asked a set of questions about what people believed and I answered them. Leave it at that.

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
Yes, the whole Bible is inspired by God. If not, then the whole concept of Christ falls apart. Without the Bible, we wouldn't know anything about the life of Jesus, His teachings, His death & Resurrection.... none of it. If we believe in Jesus, then we also have to believe in what He said about the OT scriptures & prophets. If we believe in the OT scriptures & prophets, then why not the NT writings?

2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? Jesus was fully man and fully God.

3. Can you lose your salvation? This is tricky. I believe in the idea that many people were never really saved. First off, you have to look at Christianity in the original context. It came out of a Middle east concept of life, rather than a Western concept. In the East, life is not compartmentalized in the ways we do in the West. In the East, if you accepted Jesus as Savior, it was understood that you were also accepting Him as Lord. This Lordship concept is something that people in the West struggle with a lot. Paul struggled with sin, but he never struggled with who was the ultimate Lord of his life. In other words, Paul new that his sin was a sin, because his Lord decided that for him. In the West, people who enjoy their sin... or who grow tired of fighting their sin, often decide that Jesus is wrong about what is sin and what is not sin. If they study the topic long enough, they will eventually have to accept that Jesus is the ultimate arbitrator of sin & not sin, or He is not. This is part of the Lordship issue that I'm talking about. And so people in the West often decide to pick & choose what to believe, or they just reject God completely. Either way, they never really accepted the Lordship of Jesus. In the eastern mindset (for some reason), there is no separation of salvation from our daily lives. If you are saved by Jesus, then you follow ALL of His teachings. You may struggle with sin, but you won't struggle over wither Jesus was right or wrong about sin. If you believe that God is wrong when it comes to sin, then you really have never accepted Jesus as Lord & Savior. If God is wrong about sin, then how could He be right about salvation from sin?

4. What is your view on the rapture? It will happen. Probably mid or post tribulation.

5. Do you believe in original sin? I believe in the Bible, so.. yeah.

6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? Not sure about exact numbers

7. Do you believe in evolution? I believe in adaptation, but there is no evidence for the evolution from one type of creature into another.

8. Do you believe in the Trinity? Yes. There are many concepts which are outside of our human comprehension, and the Trinity is just one of them.

9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? I have experienced miracles in my own life, so it isn't hard to accept the miracles of the Bible. Going back to #3, if you don't believe that the Bible is true, then you are rejecting something that Jesus affirmed. Do you really think you can believe that Jesus was a liar, and yet He is also the key to your salvation?

10. Why do you believe in Christianity? I believe because it is true. Over the years, I have experienced life with God, and so Christianity has been proven true in my life. Yet I believed long before I experienced the truth. So the real question is why did I believe initially. That is a tough one. Like many westerners, I accepted salvation long before I accepted lordship. Somehow, I just knew that salvation was real. I knew that sin existed, and that I had sinned. So of course I needed salvation from the consequences of my sin.
After years of struggling with sin, I finally realized that I really liked my sin. Even though I knew it was destroying my life, it was fun in the moment. When I finally accepted that Jesus was right about everything, including my sin, I finally started to experience changes in my life.
I hope that helps.

Thanks Shooter.

"After years of struggling with sin, I finally realized that I really liked my sin. Even though I knew it was destroying my life, it was fun in the moment. When I finally accepted that Jesus was right about everything, including my sin, I finally started to experience changes in my life."

This part is really important, I think. It's one thing to change what you don't like. We all want to be healthier, smarter, wiser, etc., but that all plays into self-interest, and a mean son-of-himself can do things like pray and good deeds if he thinks it results in a payoff, but that is not what changes a heart. And it is that change in our essence that makes all the difference.

When someone accepts Jesus as their Lord, it means they are no longer the old person they were before. It also explains why Jesus' atonement can be applied to someone else in the first place - we are changed by Christ into kinship with him, so that our sin is not part of who we now are, and the efficacy of Christ may properly apply to all who live in Him.

ShooterTX said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

---

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
Yes, the whole Bible is inspired by God. If not, then the whole concept of Christ falls apart. Without the Bible, we wouldn't know anything about the life of Jesus, His teachings, His death & Resurrection.... none of it. If we believe in Jesus, then we also have to believe in what He said about the OT scriptures & prophets. If we believe in the OT scriptures & prophets, then why not the NT writings?

2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man? Jesus was fully man and fully God.

3. Can you lose your salvation? This is tricky. I believe in the idea that many people were never really saved. First off, you have to look at Christianity in the original context. It came out of a Middle east concept of life, rather than a Western concept. In the East, life is not compartmentalized in the ways we do in the West. In the East, if you accepted Jesus as Savior, it was understood that you were also accepting Him as Lord. This Lordship concept is something that people in the West struggle with a lot. Paul struggled with sin, but he never struggled with who was the ultimate Lord of his life. In other words, Paul new that his sin was a sin, because his Lord decided that for him. In the West, people who enjoy their sin... or who grow tired of fighting their sin, often decide that Jesus is wrong about what is sin and what is not sin. If they study the topic long enough, they will eventually have to accept that Jesus is the ultimate arbitrator of sin & not sin, or He is not. This is part of the Lordship issue that I'm talking about. And so people in the West often decide to pick & choose what to believe, or they just reject God completely. Either way, they never really accepted the Lordship of Jesus. In the eastern mindset (for some reason), there is no separation of salvation from our daily lives. If you are saved by Jesus, then you follow ALL of His teachings. You may struggle with sin, but you won't struggle over wither Jesus was right or wrong about sin. If you believe that God is wrong when it comes to sin, then you really have never accepted Jesus as Lord & Savior. If God is wrong about sin, then how could He be right about salvation from sin?

4. What is your view on the rapture? It will happen. Probably mid or post tribulation.

5. Do you believe in original sin? I believe in the Bible, so.. yeah.

6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old? Not sure about exact numbers

7. Do you believe in evolution? I believe in adaptation, but there is no evidence for the evolution from one type of creature into another.

8. Do you believe in the Trinity? Yes. There are many concepts which are outside of our human comprehension, and the Trinity is just one of them.

9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible? I have experienced miracles in my own life, so it isn't hard to accept the miracles of the Bible. Going back to #3, if you don't believe that the Bible is true, then you are rejecting something that Jesus affirmed. Do you really think you can believe that Jesus was a liar, and yet He is also the key to your salvation?

10. Why do you believe in Christianity? I believe because it is true. Over the years, I have experienced life with God, and so Christianity has been proven true in my life. Yet I believed long before I experienced the truth. So the real question is why did I believe initially. That is a tough one. Like many westerners, I accepted salvation long before I accepted lordship. Somehow, I just knew that salvation was real. I knew that sin existed, and that I had sinned. So of course I needed salvation from the consequences of my sin.
After years of struggling with sin, I finally realized that I really liked my sin. Even though I knew it was destroying my life, it was fun in the moment. When I finally accepted that Jesus was right about everything, including my sin, I finally started to experience changes in my life.
I hope that helps.

---

I really appreciate the parts in bold

BaylorFTW said:

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TexasScientist said:

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9. I don't believe there is any evidence of a miracle, which requires the suspension of the natural physical laws of the Universe. People interpret good fortune, and narrow misses with disaster as miracles, when they are simply what they are, essentially anecdotal and coincidental results. There simply is no evidence for miracles.

---

But you are showing a strong bias against a supernatural explanation. So whenever evidence of miracles is presented, you are likely to dismiss it out of hand as it must not be so. For example, even when science is unable to prove an incident has some non-supernatural reason, you will simply say the reason just hasn't been discovered yet rather than acknowledge it could be supernatural and a bonafide miracle.

---

On the contrary, I would love to see objective empirical evidence in support of supernatural miracles. I would love to be able to buy into the idea of a supernatural god who is going to give eternal life. I have often said, show me a real miracle, and I'll believe. For instance, show me someone, who after being dead and embalmed, is raised from the dead, crawling out of their coffin.

What is your definition of a supernatural explanation? So far, there is no empirical objective evidence that anything other than events that have an explanation in accordance with natural laws has any affect on nature.

The record is full of examples, of what was formerly attributed to a supernatural act of god, which is now proven false and explained by natural physical laws. So far, there is nothing that was formerly explained by natural laws and which is now attributed to a supernatural god.

The probability that some as yet unexplained phenomenon has a supernatural explanation, as opposed to natural, is minuscule based upon any objective review. Why would you automatically assign an unexplained phenomenon to the supernatural, as opposed to some as yet understood natural explanation?

The problem I see, TS, is that when evidence of supernatural phenomenae is presented, it gets rejected as 'system error' or 'outlier', due to the inability to reproduce the effect under human-controlled conditions. That is, every attempt I have seen to quantify supernatural effects is judged by natural conditions, and so it becomes impossible by definition.

Oldbear83 said:

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The problem I see, TS, is that when evidence of supernatural phenomenae is presented, it gets rejected as 'system error' or 'outlier', due to the inability to reproduce the effect under human-controlled conditions. That is, every attempt I have seen to quantify supernatural effects is judged by natural conditions, and so it becomes impossible by definition.

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If something has a natural explanation, it no longer qualifies for a supernatural explanation. Give me an example of an empirically documented phenomenon that can only be assigned a supernatural cause.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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The problem I see, TS, is that when evidence of supernatural phenomenae is presented, it gets rejected as 'system error' or 'outlier', due to the inability to reproduce the effect under human-controlled conditions. That is, every attempt I have seen to quantify supernatural effects is judged by natural conditions, and so it becomes impossible by definition.

---

If something has a natural explanation, it no longer qualifies for a supernatural explanation. Give me an example of an empirically documented phenomenon that can only be assigned a supernatural cause.

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That's just my point. If something is really supernatural, you cannot apply the rules of nature to it. You deny anything which is not natural, precisely because it exists outside the rules of nature.

I would consider myself Christian, but I think at the end of it all......We all may very well be surprised!

TexasScientist said:

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BaylorFTW said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

9. I don't believe there is any evidence of a miracle, which requires the suspension of the natural physical laws of the Universe. People interpret good fortune, and narrow misses with disaster as miracles, when they are simply what they are, essentially anecdotal and coincidental results. There simply is no evidence for miracles.

---

But you are showing a strong bias against a supernatural explanation. So whenever evidence of miracles is presented, you are likely to dismiss it out of hand as it must not be so. For example, even when science is unable to prove an incident has some non-supernatural reason, you will simply say the reason just hasn't been discovered yet rather than acknowledge it could be supernatural and a bonafide miracle.

---

On the contrary, I would love to see objective empirical evidence in support of supernatural miracles. I would love to be able to buy into the idea of a supernatural god who is going to give eternal life. I have often said, show me a real miracle, and I'll believe. For instance, show me someone, who after being dead and embalmed, is raised from the dead, crawling out of their coffin.

---

Well, let's just start with the example in the movie Breakthrough that is now out in theaters. Essentially, a child fell into a frozen pond and was trapped underwater for 15 minutes. He had a lifeless body and wasn't able to be resuscitated after 43 minutes. He is a coma and the doctor is about to tell the family its over. The mother goes into the room and prays for her son and he gets a pulse again leading to his eventual recovery. Doctors can't explain it but are "theorizing that the extremely cold temperature of the water that day was what redistributed John's blood flow and kept his organs functioning, but the Smith family believes there was also something else at play: a true, God-given miracle."
Source: https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/entertainment/a27154125/breakthrough-movie-true-story/
Source:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/missouri-teen-submerged-icy-lake-15-minutes-makes-miracle-recovery-n300841

TexasScientist said:

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What is your definition of a supernatural explanation? So far, there is no empirical objective evidence that anything other than events that have an explanation in accordance with natural laws has any affect on nature.

The record is full of examples, of what was formerly attributed to a supernatural act of god, which is now proven false and explained by natural physical laws. So far, there is nothing that was formerly explained by natural laws and which is now attributed to a supernatural god.

---

I think we are fine with your apparent definition for supernatural explanation. But I don't agree with your conclusion that all the miracles have been proven false. What you have are explanations that may or may not prove the other explanation false. Simply concocting an explanation doesn't mean it wins the day. I am not even sure how you could know that something that formerly had a natural law explanation is now attributed to a supernatural God. Given your bias, I don't see how you would be able to accept such evidence.

Quote:

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The probability that some as yet unexplained phenomenon has a supernatural explanation, as opposed to natural, is minuscule based upon any objective review. Why would you automatically assign an unexplained phenomenon to the supernatural, as opposed to some as yet understood natural explanation?

---

Ultimately, it comes down to belief in God and Christianity. I acknowledge the limitations of science and don't think it alone can solve all the mysteries of the universe. There is more to the world than what can be seen. In other words, there is more than just a material world. Since I believe there is a spiritual element to the world, I can and do believe in miracles.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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The problem I see, TS, is that when evidence of supernatural phenomenae is presented, it gets rejected as 'system error' or 'outlier', due to the inability to reproduce the effect under human-controlled conditions. That is, every attempt I have seen to quantify supernatural effects is judged by natural conditions, and so it becomes impossible by definition.

---

If something has a natural explanation, it no longer qualifies for a supernatural explanation. Give me an example of an empirically documented phenomenon that can only be assigned a supernatural cause.

---

Serious question:

Do you think it is possible to confirm something supernatural with science?

Example: If i gave you examples of miracles from my own life, wouldn't you want to study them and test them to see if there is a scientific explanation? And if you couldn't explain them with science, would you accept that as proof of the supernatural? Or would you need some scientific way to prove the supernatural?

I have witnessed a few miracles in my time. I was in Mexico, and prayed for a man who was so drunk that he could barely stand up. Within about 5 minutes he was stone cold sober. It totally freaked me out, and everyone around us as well. This happened in an open air marketplace. The local shop keepers had seen him drinking all day long, and getting more & more intoxicated.
Now... how can you possibly use science to test this miracle? It's been years since this incident happened. Even if you had been onsite at the time, how could you test it? How would you know to take blood samples before & after the event?
If someone was raised from the dead, could you definitively prove that they were dead? Couldn't the coroner have made a mistake?

I don't think it will ever work the way you want it to. The purpose of a miracle is to build up someones faith. Miracles occur because of the supernatural power of God. Many people feel better putting their faith in science, rather than God. It becomes a battle between God & science, which is sad. Science isn't supposed to be about faith, but about discovery & understanding. God doesn't have a problem with the scientific method, but modern scientists often have a huge problem with God.

I have my faith in God, but I use science to explain the physical world. I do not view science as the ultimate set of answers to everything. My faith gives me purpose & meaning in my life. Science helps enhance my life, while I am living out that purpose & meaning. For example: the science of addiction is fascinating! It is really helpful to understand how the brain & body can create physiological addictions from a pattern of behaviors. However, I have never seen anyone overcome addictions with science alone. Methadone and other chemicals are very helpful, but if the God part is missing, then the behaviors resurface. The underlying issue which lead someone to "medicate the pain", must be dealt with if addiction is to truly be wiped out. I know that behavioral science attempts to deal with the root issues, but it just isn't as successful as faith-based therapy. Even AA admits that to be successful, you need to believe in a "higher power". To be honest, I don't think behavioral sciences are scientific in the first place. I mean, what is the scientific proof that love exists? How do you measure love? How do you proof the presence or absence of love? In the same way, how does science prove the existence or abscense of God? The Bible claims that God is Love, so this is a valid question. Do we doubt the existence of love, just because science cannot measure or prove the presence/absence of love?

BaylorFTW said:

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I was looking at another thread where a poster was talking about his interpretation of the bible. This got me thinking about what do others here think about some popular questions people are asked about Christian faith. What are your specific beliefs to these questions?

1. Is the whole bible inspired by God? If not, how do you choose which parts to follow and ignore?
2. Do you believe Jesus is a divine figure or was simply a man?
3. Can you lose your salvation?
4. What is your view on the rapture?
5. Do you believe in original sin?
6. Do you think the world is roughly 6,000 years old?
7. Do you believe in evolution?
8. Do you believe in the Trinity?
9. Do you believe in the miracles of the bible?
10. Why do you believe in Christianity?

Also, is there any other question that you would like to know about other believers here that I have left off?

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I'm a little late to the party here but I had all of this typed out yesterday and my computer deleted it when I tried to post. Here's a second shot:

1) Yes the whole Bible is inspired by God because if any part of it is false, then all of it is false. The Bible testifies to its own validity in 2Timothy 3:16-17 and 2Peter 1:20-21 as well as the unchanging nature of both God (Malachi 3:6) and Christ (Hebrews 13:8). I take inspiration to mean that God did not have to necessarily take over the agency of prophets, scribes, and translators but He did communicate His message clearly to His people. If God were comfortable with being vague, why was Moses punish for striking the rock instead of speaking to it (Number 20:7-12)?

2) Jesus is the only begotten of the father who was made flesh and dwelled among us (John 1:14). He was enough man to both understand us (Hebrews 4:15) and to die on the cross but also enough God to be exalted by the Father to a place of authority after his resurrection (Philippians 2:5-11).

3) Salvation can not be taken from an individual by any outside force (Romans 8:35-39) but can be rejected by anyone who chooses to turn away from God (2Peter 2:20-22). Salvation is the end result of genuine faith (1Peter 1:3-9) and is a spiritual blessing which are only offered in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-12).

4) The rapture is not supported in scripture. I believe the rapture is the logical conclusion of misreading several apocalyptic texts in both the Old and New Testaments as literal. Several prophecies are written in this language type and require us to consider them through the eyes of the original audience rather than try to slide them into a 20th or 21st century mindset. Revelation is a great example of this and, while I don't claim to have the entire thing figured out, it's difficult to read a bunch into it that the 1st century church could not and consider that a proper rendering.

5) If by original sin you mean do I believe that sin entered the world by the Eve and Adam eating the fruit God had forbidden them to eat, then yes I believe in original sin. If you mean do I believe that all men bear the burden of that sin, then no. Each one sins when he is led away by his own desires (James 1:13-15) and the kingdom of God could not belong to such as little children (Matthew 19:14) if they were guilty of "original sin" as some promote it today.

6) I believe that the Bible is true in its account of how things came into being. I believe God created everything in 6 literal days and that the historical accounts of scripture are also accurate. I'm not sure why it's hard to see God's words as literal in Genesis 1 but easy to see them as literal in John 3:16. If the answer to #1 is "yes", then I have to say yes here as well. And I'm fully aware that some want to strain 2Peter 3:8-9 into millions of years but I have a very hard time seeing that as the case when you consider that the flood addresses a lot of the geological issues (look up the 1980 Mt St Helens blast and its slide into Spirit Lake) and Job talks about what many interpret to be dinosaurs in ch 40 & 41 of his book.

7) I believe in micro evolution because it's near impossible to deny that natural selection causes changes over time in animals. I come from an agricultural background and I have seen in my lifetime how these effects can be born out in a few generations of selective mating. I do not believe that man came from monkey and I don't find anything in the Bible that would support such a claim. I believe evolution as it is taught in science books is as much a religion as anything the Bible teaches. The notion that nothing blew up into everything defying every observable scientific law is foolish, IMO. Science does a great job of explaining things we can observe and test (I am far from anti-science because I like things like medicine) but evolution does not fall in this category. If somebody wants to believe that evolution is how we got here, that's their prerogative, but I do not believe it and I will not teach it to my kids. Belief in something you can't observe, test, or prove is faith and that's a spiritual concept not a scientific one.

8) I understand the trinity to be simply that there is a "God head" made up of 3 parts (Father, Son, Spirit) that constitutes what we understand as God. Because all three parts work in perfect concert with one another (John 5:36-37 & John 15:26), all can be "God" while still being 3 separate personages. When trying to explain this to younger kids, I use the illustration of a good glass of light (not a perfect example but go with me here). Light is made up of the 7 different frequencies (ROYGBIV). They can work independently but all of them are still light and they collectively make what we interpret as light.

9) I believe that the miracles recorded in the Old & New Testament are true as recorded. I believe that those miracles were for the express purpose of confirming the spoken word (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:1-4). I believe those miracles have ceased (1Corinthians 13) and do not occur in 2019. With that said, when we pray we commonly are asking God to intervene on our behalf (literally what we mean by intercession). I believe that God can and does work on behalf of His people through this avenue (James 5:15-16) with respect to His will which sometimes results in sick people getting better. But I do not believe there is a person in the world today who can give sight to a blind man by laying hands on him.

10) I believe in Christianity for many reasons but I'll list a few:
a) Christianity has withstood repeated challenges for roughly 2000 years and has not been proven false. It is still standing up to intense scrutiny today. Many beliefs (Mormonism for example) have not stood against such scrutiny. It also gives answers to the questions that have long plagued mankind "where do we come from?", "where are we going?", and "why are we here?".
b) I was fortunate to be raised in a Christian home. My brother and I are 13 years apart and I benefited from the time and wisdom that came to my parents in those 13 years. That's not to say that they weren't good parents to all 4 of us but they were much more consistent Christian examples by the time I came along.
c) Lest you read (b) and think that my faith is my parents' faith, it is not. I lived the life of the prodigal son from the riotous living all the way back to the long walk home to a Father who ran to meet me on the road. I questioned everything I was taught and even rebelled against it only to find that it was true all along. I love the book of Ecclesiastes because I feel that I took a poor man's approach to this book and came to the same conclusion that Solomon did at the end of the book: Fear God and keep His commandments for this is man's all.

I hope that answers your questions.

I find it interesting to hear people talk about their varying proclivities to sin. Where I think the "lordship" issue above intersects with sin is Pride. For me, pride is my biggest real problem, though not the only one. WHile there is an issue of pride vis-a-vis others, it really is the problem of pride toward God that hinders truly following Him. A lot of our culture-war problems stem from pride - conservative Christians too proud of their own hermeneutical perspectives, and others too proud of their experience-based ethical foundations. There are lots of progressive Christians as well proud of their own hermeneutic of "love" uber alles. Sins of the flesh will always be a problem, but Pride is the real killer of many souls.

Pablo Fanque said:

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I find it interesting to hear people talk about their varying proclivities to sin. Where I think the "lordship" issue above intersects with sin is Pride. For me, pride is my biggest real problem, though not the only one. WHile there is an issue of pride vis-a-vis others, it really is the problem of pride toward God that hinders truly following Him. A lot of our culture-war problems stem from pride - conservative Christians too proud of their own hermeneutical perspectives, and others too proud of their experience-based ethical foundations. There are lots of progressive Christians as well proud of their own hermeneutic of "love" uber alles. Sins of the flesh will always be a problem, but Pride is the real killer of many souls.

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I have been where you are on this one. I struggled mightily with pride (and sometimes still do) to the point that even people I liked felt I was "arrogant and over the top" (direct quote!). In the last several years I've been helped by an amazing wife and a resolution to battle it back. I don't even use the word "pride" anymore when talking about myself or others outside of the Biblical context of boasting of God's power in my weakness (2Corinthians 12). For example: I used to say I was proud of an accomplishment or I was proud of another individual and I now say that I'm "thankful" for that individual because it places the glory on God rather than myself. I catch some flack now for a rigidly avoiding the word "proud" but it has changed my attitude and the way others perceive me.

Just wanted to share.

I would like to throw this out for consideration:

I mentioned that I have personally experienced miracles. I will be the first to agree that not everyone experiences miracles, and what I have received is absolutely not due to my merit. I conclude that I receive what God means for me to receive, and this is the case for each of us, according to God's will. I further recognize my limits in body and mind. That is, I may not perceive things the same way someone else does, and my mind may reach a different interpretation of what I perceive than does someone else.

I further note that Jesus had a dozen disciples for a reason. Peter, Luke, John, and the others each had different abilities, perspectives, and environments, yet each had a valid experience with Christ. So too we each perceive as we are able, and share what we learned and believe.

For some miracles are a vital confirmation of the Gospel, while for others they are trivial. For some, miracles are a wonderful gift from God which changed their life, while for others they would merely be spectacle.

I think we should respect others' experiences, while remaining open to learning from them as well.

My basic belief since I read Paul Tillich's "You are Accepted"
Richard Rohr confirms my belief in his quote:
"You can't make God love you one ounce more than God already loves you right now. You can go to church every day for the rest of your life. God isn't going to love you any more than God loves you right now.
You cannot make God love you any less, eithernot an ounce less. Do the most terrible thing and God wouldn't love you less. You cannot change the Divine mind about you! The flow is constant, total, and 100 percent toward your life. God is for you.
We can't diminish God's love for us. What we can do, however, is learn how to believe it, receive it, trust it, allow it, and celebrate it"
That's ... that's ... that's all, Folks

MoneyBear said:

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I'm a little late to the party here but I had all of this typed out yesterday and my computer deleted it when I tried to post. Here's a second shot:

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There are no late entries on this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Even if someone posted a few months later, I would still find it interesting if it is a sincere response.