Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

In 1940, about one in 100 African Americans had a bachelors degree. In 2017, about one in four did. In 1940, less than 10 percent of African Americans attended four years of high school. Around 80 percent of African Americans today graduate from high school. Lot more folks in the stadium today.

Serious question. Were you a lazy imbecile as a kid who only got where you got because other people proactively put you in positions that you were not qualified or capable of holding? I find that hard to believe.

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

The very first response to the OP asked you a question that you have yet to answer. I have asked you several questions in good faith that you have refused to answer. I don't throw insults. I respond with courtesy and questions that I'm genuinely interested in your answers to. You just continue to avoid decent questions from myself and other throughout this thread.

You criticizing anyone for acting in bad faith in dialogue in this thread is a joke.

Done with this thread. I sincerely hope you don't respond like this when defending your dissertation and someone actually asks you a question.

---

This is just like the global warming arguments.

"There is a HORRIBLE problem and you are it"
"Okay, what do you recommend?"
"Bad Faith, non-serious response!!! Just trust me"
"Well, I'd like to know what you propose, the cost and look at possible consequences, intended and unintended."
"Didn't you read the OP? There is a HORRIBLE problem! You are an idiot"

Responding is a waste of time

---

Exactly.

This is nothing more than an attempt to justify the idea that anyone who is successful, has done so through illegitimate means. That way, fewer people will object when they push for government enforced redistribution of wealth.

---

You're strangely self-centered on this.

You can't get over this idea that you're not perfect. Or that you have had some luck in your life.

That's fine. I mean, there are people who think the holocaust was a hoax and the earth is flat. Facts don't give a **** about your feelings.

But while you cry and whine and rub your bruised ego reality moves on.

Sorry, dude.

---

I will regretfully jump back in here, and remind you of some of my previous posts on this subject. I'm the first to admit I've had some good fortune (born to a loving family, high IQ, community that established an expectation of hard work and success, able bodied, etc etc etc). My question to you is "So the hell what?" You keep talking about "removing barriers" and yet you've done nothing to explain what on earth that means.

New flash: Life isn't "fair." I know that offends your delicate millenial sensibilities, but it is a FACT (your favorite word). Not everyone will be born with the same intellect. Your posts on this thread and others make that abundantly clear. Not everyone will be born to the same kinds of supportive families. Not everyone will be born into the same financial setting. Not everyone will be born with the same vices or sin proclivities. Deal with it.

Acting like we have to some how magically "even the playing field" is an absolutely absurd and fairy land concept. It is typical of people like you to stomp their feet and demand we "do something" to make it so (without offering up any clue of what or how). I realize you want to live in Hogwarts or somesuch, but there aren't any magic wands in the real world. MAKE THE BEST OF THE HAND YOU'VE BEEN DEALT. In our country, people have the ability to do exactly that, and it's why people have flocked here for two centuries plus. But this notion of making things "fair" is something only a kindergartener or a member of today's leftist academia would espouse. It's nonsense. You can't make people the same IQ. You can't make them come from the same support network. Etc. So you can stop with this crap unless you have a real suggestion or solution to actually discuss. Just saying "life's not fair!" is gonna get you nothing but a Captain Obvious gif.

---

So glad you decided to wade in and remind me how important it is to always do the readings.

1. I'm glad you're admitting to the central premise that our society isn't built on any sort of fairness. If it was, merit would matter.

2. No one is saying everything should be equal. I have no idea where you're getting this from. I have stated this over and over and over again.

We're not talking about making everyone walk. We're talking about ramps for those who can't. (That's an example and an analogy, I know you have trouble following along sometimes).

I agree we should make the most of the hand we've been dealt. We're just arguing that the hand many are dealt isn't fair (you've agreed to that). We just think it's possible to make the odds better for everyone as opposed to just a few.

Otherwise, you're left playing a game all by yourself because no one else has the money to ante up.

---

1. Our society is built on fairness, and merit does matter.

---

You're adorable.

Show your facts. Back it up.

---

The right to speak, the right to vote, the right to practice one's religious faith without government into, the right to petition government, the right to a jury trial, the right to equal treatment under law, the right to property: All of these and more form the building blocks of our society and all are based on a notion of fundamental fairness. This is not to say that we have a perfect society, but the notion that our society is not built on "fairness" is absurd.

If merit means that the person who works hard and makes a few key good decisions will tend to be more successful in society than if he or she did not work hard and make a few key good decisions, merit matters.

If one believes that "merit" is appropriately measured by math scores in kindergarten (and there are all kinds of problems with that), it is important to ask whether a higher score leads to more success later on compared with a lower score among similar groups. If a high scoring kindergartner (a proxy for "merit") in a poor school has a better shot at a college education (a proxy for "success") than a low scoring kindergartener in the same school, then merit matters.

---

Opinions and aspersions.

I need facts. Figures. Something other than your hopes and dreams.

Let me be clear. I have no faith in you. You have proven, time and again, to be more than happy to argue points in bad faith that you know are either false, or don't care to verify.

I would love to take you seriously, but you haven't earned it.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

You're stating your opinion as fact. You don't have anything else to back it up. I at least TRY to back up my opinions with sources.

You don't even bother.

It must be nice to be so utterly convinced that your opinion is right that the idea of backing it up is completely out of the question.

Our country isn't fair. You're the only one arguing it is. I've provided evidence after evidence of systemic inequality.

Hell, even Doc isn't arguing that, and he argues everything.

Bruce Leroy said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

---

Are you stating that all k-12 education is equal? I would say it absolutely isn't.

If you are willing to agree with me, the I can absolutely cite many cases that show equal access isn't guaranteed and that there IS bias.

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

The very first response to the OP asked you a question that you have yet to answer. I have asked you several questions in good faith that you have refused to answer. I don't throw insults. I respond with courtesy and questions that I'm genuinely interested in your answers to. You just continue to avoid decent questions from myself and other throughout this thread.

You criticizing anyone for acting in bad faith in dialogue in this thread is a joke.

Done with this thread. I sincerely hope you don't respond like this when defending your dissertation and someone actually asks you a question.

---

This is just like the global warming arguments.

"There is a HORRIBLE problem and you are it"
"Okay, what do you recommend?"
"Bad Faith, non-serious response!!! Just trust me"
"Well, I'd like to know what you propose, the cost and look at possible consequences, intended and unintended."
"Didn't you read the OP? There is a HORRIBLE problem! You are an idiot"

Responding is a waste of time

---

Exactly.

This is nothing more than an attempt to justify the idea that anyone who is successful, has done so through illegitimate means. That way, fewer people will object when they push for government enforced redistribution of wealth.

---

You're strangely self-centered on this.

You can't get over this idea that you're not perfect. Or that you have had some luck in your life.

That's fine. I mean, there are people who think the holocaust was a hoax and the earth is flat. Facts don't give a **** about your feelings.

But while you cry and whine and rub your bruised ego reality moves on.

Sorry, dude.

---

I will regretfully jump back in here, and remind you of some of my previous posts on this subject. I'm the first to admit I've had some good fortune (born to a loving family, high IQ, community that established an expectation of hard work and success, able bodied, etc etc etc). My question to you is "So the hell what?" You keep talking about "removing barriers" and yet you've done nothing to explain what on earth that means.

New flash: Life isn't "fair." I know that offends your delicate millenial sensibilities, but it is a FACT (your favorite word). Not everyone will be born with the same intellect. Your posts on this thread and others make that abundantly clear. Not everyone will be born to the same kinds of supportive families. Not everyone will be born into the same financial setting. Not everyone will be born with the same vices or sin proclivities. Deal with it.

Acting like we have to some how magically "even the playing field" is an absolutely absurd and fairy land concept. It is typical of people like you to stomp their feet and demand we "do something" to make it so (without offering up any clue of what or how). I realize you want to live in Hogwarts or somesuch, but there aren't any magic wands in the real world. MAKE THE BEST OF THE HAND YOU'VE BEEN DEALT. In our country, people have the ability to do exactly that, and it's why people have flocked here for two centuries plus. But this notion of making things "fair" is something only a kindergartener or a member of today's leftist academia would espouse. It's nonsense. You can't make people the same IQ. You can't make them come from the same support network. Etc. So you can stop with this crap unless you have a real suggestion or solution to actually discuss. Just saying "life's not fair!" is gonna get you nothing but a Captain Obvious gif.

---

So glad you decided to wade in and remind me how important it is to always do the readings.

1. I'm glad you're admitting to the central premise that our society isn't built on any sort of fairness. If it was, merit would matter.

2. No one is saying everything should be equal. I have no idea where you're getting this from. I have stated this over and over and over again.

We're not talking about making everyone walk. We're talking about ramps for those who can't. (That's an example and an analogy, I know you have trouble following along sometimes).

I agree we should make the most of the hand we've been dealt. We're just arguing that the hand many are dealt isn't fair (you've agreed to that). We just think it's possible to make the odds better for everyone as opposed to just a few.

Otherwise, you're left playing a game all by yourself because no one else has the money to ante up.

---

1. Our society is built on fairness, and merit does matter.

---

You're adorable.

Show your facts. Back it up.

---

The right to speak, the right to vote, the right to practice one's religious faith without government into, the right to petition government, the right to a jury trial, the right to equal treatment under law, the right to property: All of these and more form the building blocks of our society and all are based on a notion of fundamental fairness. This is not to say that we have a perfect society, but the notion that our society is not built on "fairness" is absurd.

If merit means that the person who works hard and makes a few key good decisions will tend to be more successful in society than if he or she did not work hard and make a few key good decisions, merit matters.

If one believes that "merit" is appropriately measured by math scores in kindergarten (and there are all kinds of problems with that), it is important to ask whether a higher score leads to more success later on compared with a lower score among similar groups. If a high scoring kindergartner (a proxy for "merit") in a poor school has a better shot at a college education (a proxy for "success") than a low scoring kindergartener in the same school, then merit matters.

---

Opinions and aspersions.

I need facts. Figures. Something other than your hopes and dreams.

Let me be clear. I have no faith in you. You have proven, time and again, to be more than happy to argue points in bad faith that you know are either false, or don't care to verify.

I would love to take you seriously, but you haven't earned it.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

You're stating your opinion as fact. You don't have anything else to back it up. I at least TRY to back up my opinions with sources.

You don't even bother.

It must be nice to be so utterly convinced that your opinion is right that the idea of backing it up is completely out of the question.

Our country isn't fair. You're the only one arguing it is. I've provided evidence after evidence of systemic inequality.

Hell, even Doc isn't arguing that, and he argues everything.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

Sam Lowry said:

---

I agree that many people are held back by economic injustices, but for the most part I don't think the injustices are systemic. They're the result of specific policies carried out by specific people and entities (Wall Street investment banks, for example). That's where the focus ought to be. When I hear about general issues like equality and meritocracy, it does raise a red flag for me regarding socialism because the issues are so abstract that almost any half-baked policy can be (and usually is) proposed to address them. The Green New Deal would be killer effective at restoring equality. It's also probably the worst idea since Brawndo sprinklers. Meritocracy itself is a problematic concept. It was originally coined as a negative, satirical term for the elevation of intellectual talent above all other forms of achievement. I'm all for education, but I don't think that's what we want. The fact that students who score high on a math test in kindergarten aren't always the most successful adults is not necessarily a public policy failure, in my view.

---

Top comment. And an Idiocracy reference will always get a star from me!

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

---

Are you stating that all k-12 education is equal? I would say it absolutely isn't.

If you are willing to agree with me, the I can absolutely cite many cases that show equal access isn't guaranteed and that there IS bias.

---

I am open for discussion. What is "education" and how is it equal under a state run system as opposed to a federal run education system (common core) in your opinion?

Please delete.

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

The very first response to the OP asked you a question that you have yet to answer. I have asked you several questions in good faith that you have refused to answer. I don't throw insults. I respond with courtesy and questions that I'm genuinely interested in your answers to. You just continue to avoid decent questions from myself and other throughout this thread.

You criticizing anyone for acting in bad faith in dialogue in this thread is a joke.

Done with this thread. I sincerely hope you don't respond like this when defending your dissertation and someone actually asks you a question.

---

This is just like the global warming arguments.

"There is a HORRIBLE problem and you are it"
"Okay, what do you recommend?"
"Bad Faith, non-serious response!!! Just trust me"
"Well, I'd like to know what you propose, the cost and look at possible consequences, intended and unintended."
"Didn't you read the OP? There is a HORRIBLE problem! You are an idiot"

Responding is a waste of time

---

Exactly.

This is nothing more than an attempt to justify the idea that anyone who is successful, has done so through illegitimate means. That way, fewer people will object when they push for government enforced redistribution of wealth.

---

You're strangely self-centered on this.

You can't get over this idea that you're not perfect. Or that you have had some luck in your life.

That's fine. I mean, there are people who think the holocaust was a hoax and the earth is flat. Facts don't give a **** about your feelings.

But while you cry and whine and rub your bruised ego reality moves on.

Sorry, dude.

---

I will regretfully jump back in here, and remind you of some of my previous posts on this subject. I'm the first to admit I've had some good fortune (born to a loving family, high IQ, community that established an expectation of hard work and success, able bodied, etc etc etc). My question to you is "So the hell what?" You keep talking about "removing barriers" and yet you've done nothing to explain what on earth that means.

New flash: Life isn't "fair." I know that offends your delicate millenial sensibilities, but it is a FACT (your favorite word). Not everyone will be born with the same intellect. Your posts on this thread and others make that abundantly clear. Not everyone will be born to the same kinds of supportive families. Not everyone will be born into the same financial setting. Not everyone will be born with the same vices or sin proclivities. Deal with it.

Acting like we have to some how magically "even the playing field" is an absolutely absurd and fairy land concept. It is typical of people like you to stomp their feet and demand we "do something" to make it so (without offering up any clue of what or how). I realize you want to live in Hogwarts or somesuch, but there aren't any magic wands in the real world. MAKE THE BEST OF THE HAND YOU'VE BEEN DEALT. In our country, people have the ability to do exactly that, and it's why people have flocked here for two centuries plus. But this notion of making things "fair" is something only a kindergartener or a member of today's leftist academia would espouse. It's nonsense. You can't make people the same IQ. You can't make them come from the same support network. Etc. So you can stop with this crap unless you have a real suggestion or solution to actually discuss. Just saying "life's not fair!" is gonna get you nothing but a Captain Obvious gif.

---

So glad you decided to wade in and remind me how important it is to always do the readings.

1. I'm glad you're admitting to the central premise that our society isn't built on any sort of fairness. If it was, merit would matter.

2. No one is saying everything should be equal. I have no idea where you're getting this from. I have stated this over and over and over again.

We're not talking about making everyone walk. We're talking about ramps for those who can't. (That's an example and an analogy, I know you have trouble following along sometimes).

I agree we should make the most of the hand we've been dealt. We're just arguing that the hand many are dealt isn't fair (you've agreed to that). We just think it's possible to make the odds better for everyone as opposed to just a few.

Otherwise, you're left playing a game all by yourself because no one else has the money to ante up.

---

1. Our society is built on fairness, and merit does matter.

---

You're adorable.

Show your facts. Back it up.

---

The right to speak, the right to vote, the right to practice one's religious faith without government into, the right to petition government, the right to a jury trial, the right to equal treatment under law, the right to property: All of these and more form the building blocks of our society and all are based on a notion of fundamental fairness. This is not to say that we have a perfect society, but the notion that our society is not built on "fairness" is absurd.

If merit means that the person who works hard and makes a few key good decisions will tend to be more successful in society than if he or she did not work hard and make a few key good decisions, merit matters.

If one believes that "merit" is appropriately measured by math scores in kindergarten (and there are all kinds of problems with that), it is important to ask whether a higher score leads to more success later on compared with a lower score among similar groups. If a high scoring kindergartner (a proxy for "merit") in a poor school has a better shot at a college education (a proxy for "success") than a low scoring kindergartener in the same school, then merit matters.

---

Opinions and aspersions.

I need facts. Figures. Something other than your hopes and dreams.

Let me be clear. I have no faith in you. You have proven, time and again, to be more than happy to argue points in bad faith that you know are either false, or don't care to verify.

I would love to take you seriously, but you haven't earned it.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

You're stating your opinion as fact. You don't have anything else to back it up. I at least TRY to back up my opinions with sources.

You don't even bother.

It must be nice to be so utterly convinced that your opinion is right that the idea of backing it up is completely out of the question.

Our country isn't fair. You're the only one arguing it is. I've provided evidence after evidence of systemic inequality.

Hell, even Doc isn't arguing that, and he argues everything.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

BBL is young and too inexperienced to have anything "substantive"

He doesn't get out much apparently and cites others opinions, what he calls "sources," as real life as I said BBL has no life experiences

Really too bad a BBL, Waco or such has the internet to blab their driveling idiocy

There's young men here with premature extreme wisdom. BBL is at back of pack chattering constantly unfortunately

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

But you either fight through it or die.

---

Survival of the fittest makes the future better

Florda_mike said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

But you either fight through it or die.

---

Survival of the fittest makes the future better

---

Sometimes

But it's horribly sad to see innocent, kind but incredibly unlucky individuals suffer and die .

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

But you either fight through it or die.

---

Survival of the fittest makes the future better

---

Sometimes

But it's horribly sad to see innocent, kind but incredibly unlucky individuals suffer and die .

---

I'm with ya on that

We need the to have the fit so those few can be taken care of perhaps is God's way

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

You are very kind.

Just FYI, despite BBL's lie to the contrary, I do not argue that tall, attractive or healthy people don't have an advantage over short, ugly or sickly people. This, however, doesn't change the fact that our society is built the notion of fundamental fairness. Our Declaration of Independence lays out the premise that all men are created equal and our Constitution lays out legal protections of that premise. Happy 4th of July.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

You are very kind.

Just FYI, despite BBL's lie to the contrary, I do not argue that tall, attractive or healthy people don't have an advantage over short, ugly or sickly people. This, however, doesn't change the fact that our society is built the notion of fundamental fairness. Our Declaration of Independence lays out the premise that all men are created equal and our Constitution lays out legal protections of that premise. Happy 4th of July.

---

In my opinion our country tries harder than any to be just.

But not all human biases or frailties or circumstances can be mitigated by laws.

No matter how well meaning.

Happy 4th of July

Florda_mike said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

But you either fight through it or die.

---

Survival of the fittest makes the future better

---

Sometimes

But it's horribly sad to see innocent, kind but incredibly unlucky individuals suffer and die .

---

I'm with ya on that

We need the to have the fit so those few can be taken care of perhaps is God's way

---

After what I have seen in the last 48 hours I am struggling to comprehend God's Way.

But praying still helps .

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

You are very kind.

Just FYI, despite BBL's lie to the contrary, I do not argue that tall, attractive or healthy people don't have an advantage over short, ugly or sickly people. This, however, doesn't change the fact that our society is built the notion of fundamental fairness. Our Declaration of Independence lays out the premise that all men are created equal and our Constitution lays out legal protections of that premise. Happy 4th of July.

---

Are you willing to extend from 1776 "All men are created equal" to 2019?
For TJ his statement literally meant white men - not Native Americans, Slaves, Free Blacks, Women

"Life is fundamentally unfair"

True. Keep in mind, of course, that not one of us did anything to earn life. We gain a head start by simply existing, which we often forget when we feel someone owes us.


"extremely unfair"

For some, but not all. In my experience, there is a balance of actions and effects, and we each have a degree of control in our lives, and we can make some good things for our families and estates.


"disgustingly unfair"

In a few cases, and again speaking from my experience this commonly happens through the evil of men, more precisely groups who deny individuals their rights and also their consequences. Growth happens through experience, and sometimes we suffer setbacks in order to gain the tools for greater success. Students often find lessons 'unfair', but they exist for good purpose.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

You are very kind.

Just FYI, despite BBL's lie to the contrary, I do not argue that tall, attractive or healthy people don't have an advantage over short, ugly or sickly people. This, however, doesn't change the fact that our society is built the notion of fundamental fairness. Our Declaration of Independence lays out the premise that all men are created equal and our Constitution lays out legal protections of that premise. Happy 4th of July.

---

You are correct.

Life is difficult. It is more difficult if you are not smart (my words, not yours)

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

The very first response to the OP asked you a question that you have yet to answer. I have asked you several questions in good faith that you have refused to answer. I don't throw insults. I respond with courtesy and questions that I'm genuinely interested in your answers to. You just continue to avoid decent questions from myself and other throughout this thread.

You criticizing anyone for acting in bad faith in dialogue in this thread is a joke.

Done with this thread. I sincerely hope you don't respond like this when defending your dissertation and someone actually asks you a question.

---

This is just like the global warming arguments.

"There is a HORRIBLE problem and you are it"
"Okay, what do you recommend?"
"Bad Faith, non-serious response!!! Just trust me"
"Well, I'd like to know what you propose, the cost and look at possible consequences, intended and unintended."
"Didn't you read the OP? There is a HORRIBLE problem! You are an idiot"

Responding is a waste of time

---

Exactly.

This is nothing more than an attempt to justify the idea that anyone who is successful, has done so through illegitimate means. That way, fewer people will object when they push for government enforced redistribution of wealth.

---

You're strangely self-centered on this.

You can't get over this idea that you're not perfect. Or that you have had some luck in your life.

That's fine. I mean, there are people who think the holocaust was a hoax and the earth is flat. Facts don't give a **** about your feelings.

But while you cry and whine and rub your bruised ego reality moves on.

Sorry, dude.

---

I will regretfully jump back in here, and remind you of some of my previous posts on this subject. I'm the first to admit I've had some good fortune (born to a loving family, high IQ, community that established an expectation of hard work and success, able bodied, etc etc etc). My question to you is "So the hell what?" You keep talking about "removing barriers" and yet you've done nothing to explain what on earth that means.

New flash: Life isn't "fair." I know that offends your delicate millenial sensibilities, but it is a FACT (your favorite word). Not everyone will be born with the same intellect. Your posts on this thread and others make that abundantly clear. Not everyone will be born to the same kinds of supportive families. Not everyone will be born into the same financial setting. Not everyone will be born with the same vices or sin proclivities. Deal with it.

Acting like we have to some how magically "even the playing field" is an absolutely absurd and fairy land concept. It is typical of people like you to stomp their feet and demand we "do something" to make it so (without offering up any clue of what or how). I realize you want to live in Hogwarts or somesuch, but there aren't any magic wands in the real world. MAKE THE BEST OF THE HAND YOU'VE BEEN DEALT. In our country, people have the ability to do exactly that, and it's why people have flocked here for two centuries plus. But this notion of making things "fair" is something only a kindergartener or a member of today's leftist academia would espouse. It's nonsense. You can't make people the same IQ. You can't make them come from the same support network. Etc. So you can stop with this crap unless you have a real suggestion or solution to actually discuss. Just saying "life's not fair!" is gonna get you nothing but a Captain Obvious gif.

---

So glad you decided to wade in and remind me how important it is to always do the readings.

1. I'm glad you're admitting to the central premise that our society isn't built on any sort of fairness. If it was, merit would matter.

2. No one is saying everything should be equal. I have no idea where you're getting this from. I have stated this over and over and over again.

We're not talking about making everyone walk. We're talking about ramps for those who can't. (That's an example and an analogy, I know you have trouble following along sometimes).

I agree we should make the most of the hand we've been dealt. We're just arguing that the hand many are dealt isn't fair (you've agreed to that). We just think it's possible to make the odds better for everyone as opposed to just a few.

Otherwise, you're left playing a game all by yourself because no one else has the money to ante up.

---

1. Our society is built on fairness, and merit does matter.

---

You're adorable.

Show your facts. Back it up.

---

The right to speak, the right to vote, the right to practice one's religious faith without government into, the right to petition government, the right to a jury trial, the right to equal treatment under law, the right to property: All of these and more form the building blocks of our society and all are based on a notion of fundamental fairness. This is not to say that we have a perfect society, but the notion that our society is not built on "fairness" is absurd.

If merit means that the person who works hard and makes a few key good decisions will tend to be more successful in society than if he or she did not work hard and make a few key good decisions, merit matters.

If one believes that "merit" is appropriately measured by math scores in kindergarten (and there are all kinds of problems with that), it is important to ask whether a higher score leads to more success later on compared with a lower score among similar groups. If a high scoring kindergartner (a proxy for "merit") in a poor school has a better shot at a college education (a proxy for "success") than a low scoring kindergartener in the same school, then merit matters.

---

Opinions and aspersions.

I need facts. Figures. Something other than your hopes and dreams.

Let me be clear. I have no faith in you. You have proven, time and again, to be more than happy to argue points in bad faith that you know are either false, or don't care to verify.

I would love to take you seriously, but you haven't earned it.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

You're stating your opinion as fact. You don't have anything else to back it up. I at least TRY to back up my opinions with sources.

You don't even bother.

It must be nice to be so utterly convinced that your opinion is right that the idea of backing it up is completely out of the question.

Our country isn't fair. You're the only one arguing it is. I've provided evidence after evidence of systemic inequality.

Hell, even Doc isn't arguing that, and he argues everything.

---

Let me know when you have a substantive response.

---

I asked you first. You've responded with nothing but aspersions and opinion. Show me SOME back up. At this point, I'm just curious if you even know how.

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

---

Are you stating that all k-12 education is equal? I would say it absolutely isn't.

If you are willing to agree with me, the I can absolutely cite many cases that show equal access isn't guaranteed and that there IS bias.

---

I am open for discussion. What is "education" and how is it equal under a state run system as opposed to a federal run education system (common core) in your opinion?

---

An equal K-12 experience. One that safely prepares you for either college or life after on a comparable level.

Is that a fair starting point?

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

Take it up with him.

I actually agree with you. I just don't agree that it has to be that way. There are certain things that are more important indicators of success than your height, however. And they're also easier differences to bridge.

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

But you either fight through it or die.

---

Survival of the fittest makes the future better

---

Sometimes

But it's horribly sad to see innocent, kind but incredibly unlucky individuals suffer and die .

---

"Survival of the fittest" is some real eugenics/white supremacist *****

Good god. It's also completely bunk when it comes to humans and modern society.

If people like Mike REALLY felt that way, he wouldn't be nearly dying from the anxiety he feels with the knowledge that this country will be mostly non-white in the next 20 years.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

---

Those are two very different statements.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

---

Those are two very different statements.

---

As I recall he said "Iur nation is founded on fairness."

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

---

Those are two very different statements.

---

As I recall he said "Iur nation is founded on fairness."

---

Nation, not life. Politics don't comprise all of life, nor does every problem have a political solution. A nation can be founded on principles of fairness, and life can still be unfair.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

---

Those are two very different statements.

---

As I recall he said "Iur nation is founded on fairness."

---

Nation, not life. Politics don't comprise all of life, nor does every problem have a political solution. A nation can be founded on principles of fairness, and life can still be unfair.

---

That's... fair, lol.

But if it's founded on something (fairness) and it isn't (fair) then shouldn't that serve as a calling to try and move towards it?

Because they're arguing the opposite.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

---

DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

---

DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

---

He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

Take it up with him.

I actually agree with you. I just don't agree that it has to be that way. There are certain things that are more important indicators of success than your height, however. And they're also easier differences to bridge.

---

One fact you need to understand is that there is no path to equality: there is only punishment and theft of the more successful.

That's all government offers.

How do we equalize incomes? Take from those that make more and give it to those that make less.

How do we equalize sports? Right now we're letting men compete with women. It's penalizing women for equality.

Are you willing to draw a red line or are you prepared to watch society eat itself alive on the path to equality?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

---

I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

---

"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

---

To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

---

Are you stating that all k-12 education is equal? I would say it absolutely isn't.

If you are willing to agree with me, the I can absolutely cite many cases that show equal access isn't guaranteed and that there IS bias.

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I am open for discussion. What is "education" and how is it equal under a state run system as opposed to a federal run education system (common core) in your opinion?

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An equal K-12 experience. One that safely prepares you for either college or life after on a comparable level.

Is that a fair starting point?

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I'd be curious to learn just exactly what "an equal K-12 experience" would look like. I'm a dinosaur who attended public schools in San Antonio in the '60s and early '70s (my mother taught 1st grade in a public school for decades, fwiw). I don't believe we even had a public option for K. My 1st grade class was actually half 1st graders who were somehow determined to be bright/advanced enough (thanks, mom) to be in a class that was also half 2nd graders. Other than that, in those ancient days we only had one teacher all day for all of our subjects and there was no distinction made between faster kids and slower kids in terms of grouping. That changed by junior high when there were actual distinctions made; kids were grouped into one of 3 categories for each subject - Accelerated, Regular, and something like Remedial (maybe... can't remember what it was called). This same structure persisted through high school, though I believe the Accelerated classes were renamed Honors. Would you consider this a "fair" arrangement?

I have no idea how public schools are organized now. Both of our kids (who are now 30 and 27) attended private schools preK- 12; Dallas ISD was not an acceptable option to us.Personally, I favor vouchers for all, merit pay for teachers, and some sort of arrangement that encourages freedom of choice which should lead to better outcomes for the greatest number of participants. Is that a fair starting point?

BrooksBearLives said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Canada2017 said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

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DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

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DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

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He's stated many times that life IS fair. And that everyone has a fair shot.

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Those are two very different statements.

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As I recall he said "Iur nation is founded on fairness."

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Nation, not life. Politics don't comprise all of life, nor does every problem have a political solution. A nation can be founded on principles of fairness, and life can still be unfair.

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That's... fair, lol.

But if it's founded on something (fairness) and it isn't (fair) then shouldn't that serve as a calling to try and move towards it?

Because they're arguing the opposite.

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If society is unfair, yes, that should be a call for change. But changing society to solve life's problems is risky. If we want to make sure the high achievers in kindergarten do as well in life as the high achievers at graduation, realistically the only thing we can do is punish the latter group. Equality isn't always fairness. Talent doesn't always mean merit.

On the other hand, I don't agree with Doc that government can only punish the more successful. It can punish the less successful too, which is the source of a lot of inequality. Ironically, Trump is the only president in recent memory to really try to address some of the unfair trade and labor practices that have stifled wage growth.

BrooksBearLives said:

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Bruce Leroy said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Bruce Leroy said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I think BBL said "You go first with seriousness" because so far you argue in bad faith.

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I've made a couple of points. I will repeat them here. They stand in opposition to his claims. When he has a substantive response, he can respond. He probably doesn't need your help, but you are also welcome to respond if you have something substantive.

1. Our society, imperfect though it is, is based in fairness. This is supported by an analysis of our form of government and its history.

2. It is also true that "merit," whether defined by innate ability or hard work or both, matters. Whether you were born on third base, first base or outside the stadium, hard work and innate ability matters in influencing how far you might go in American society.

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"Based in fairness". True but that ideal is hardly lived out with regards to race
Born outside the stadium means you don't have the access to the education and resources that severely limit progress regardless of innate ability.
Doors opened for me not on merit but skin color, patents and place of birth. That's not true of every kid.
Our job? Give every kid the opportunity of quality education n

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To prove what you are saying is correct regarding access today.

Please provide a reference/link to any lawsuit filed in the past 5/10 year with a ruling that found a student/ plaintiff was unreasonable not allowed access to public education (K to 12th Grade (High School)) within their assigned school district based exclusively on race/skin color.

It should be easy find if what you are saying true, and systemic to the United States in a way that made supreme court for a recent ruling.

Note I have searched for it and not found it so that is why I am asking for documentation. I am also aware of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka decision of 1954 (65 years ago).

You have taken the position of unequal "access to the education" and that is what I am challenging on you to prove so please don't response with a divergent response relating to "quality of education" or "resources" argument (where you think it is economically feasible that all schools have the exact number of books, rooms, teacher, etc. regardless of student/tax payer population.)

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Are you stating that all k-12 education is equal? I would say it absolutely isn't.

If you are willing to agree with me, the I can absolutely cite many cases that show equal access isn't guaranteed and that there IS bias.

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I am open for discussion. What is "education" and how is it equal under a state run system as opposed to a federal run education system (common core) in your opinion?

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An equal K-12 experience. One that safely prepares you for either college or life after on a comparable level.

Is that a fair starting point?

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No, I would not agree that is refined enough for me to consider it a starting point.

It seems that you are implying a desire for a federally directed educational system to one standard is that correct?

Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Tall folks often have an employment advantage over short people.

Attractive individuals often have an employment advantage over non attractive individuals.

Healthy individuals have an employment advantage over unhealthy individuals.

Life is unfair...extremely unfair .

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DC doesn't agree with you.

And we're saying you can easily address some of these things with stepstools and healthcare.

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DC is an intelligent individual. We don't always agree but I take his opinions seriously.

Studies have shown that tall employees have a competitive advantage over short people.
Attractive employees have a competitive advantage over unattractive employees.
Healthy employees have a competitive advantage over those with health issues .

And your previous glib response doesn't address these realities.

Life is fundamentally unfair.....extremely unfair..... disgustingly unfair.

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You are very kind.

Just FYI, despite BBL's lie to the contrary, I do not argue that tall, attractive or healthy people don't have an advantage over short, ugly or sickly people. This, however, doesn't change the fact that our society is built the notion of fundamental fairness. Our Declaration of Independence lays out the premise that all men are created equal and our Constitution lays out legal protections of that premise. Happy 4th of July.

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Are you willing to extend from 1776 "All men are created equal" to 2019?
For TJ his statement literally meant white men - not Native Americans, Slaves, Free Blacks, Women

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Do you still beat your wife?

One mistake I see here is the assumption that educational success depends on college education.

Depending on the individual, in some cases college is the wrong path to success.

We've all heard/read how a couple generations ago only about 20-25% of professionals had a college degree. What gets missed is why.

Welders, plumbers, electricians, and mechanics can and do make six-figure incomes if they are good at their work. None of those fields requires a college degree.

On the other hand, I knew a licensed CPA who barely managed $35k a year. He was book-smart but not business-savvy. I knew a guy at Baylor with a Master's degree in Mathematics, who was delivering pizzas for a living. Again, good brain for numbers but not much of a planner.

Intelligence can be a vital asset to life success, but there is more than one kind of intelligence, and different people need different direction to find their best opportunity for success.

Demanding equal outcomes is foolish, for the plain reason that people all have different work ethics, different definitions for success, and different tools. There is simply no way to equalize those, and pretending those differences do not exist is as foolish as it is dishonest.

Finally, while some few individuals are indeed given a great many advantages, in most cases great success comes from a lot of work to make an idea become reality. Hating success because someone busted their ass is childish and does no one any good, especially when some of those successful inventions and innovations create jobs for literally millions of ordinary people.