Florda_mike said:

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Booray said:

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As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

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As expected another deceiver enters in close pursuit of Quash!

They both need locked away from society!

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they're both just left wing political jack offs

Just saw Cuomo's press conference where he lambasted the Federal government's response which I think was valid. That FEMA should have been the point of supply for states rather than have them bidding against each other.

Shameful

Jack Bauer said:

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Just saw Cuomo's press conference where he lambasted the Federal government's response which I think was valid. That FEMA should have been the point of supply for states rather than have them bidding against each other.

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Did he bring up the 4 hospitals the federal govt opened up in NY and the Navy hospital ship that was sent. How about all the 1000s of ventilators and millions of other supplies? Did he mention not taking recommendations in 2016 to purchase 1000s more and then finding out he auctioned some off? He also ignored the recommendations to stock up on additional medical supplies for a pandemic. But now it's the Federal govts fault? This is why most people hate politicians.

riflebear said:

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Shameful

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Pork being aid to hospitals and states that are paying huge amounts of unemployment benefits. Just like the last time they will reach a deal.

And NY will be reporting 800 new deaths today.

Some encouraging news (in a sense): Fauci is saying there's a chance, because of the actions that have been put in place, that we really could limit this to about 60,000 deaths in the end. I say good "in a sense" because obviously 60,000 is an unfortunate number of lives lost, but far better than projections before the measures the country has taken. Let's hope this really does become limited and start trending in a positive direction soon.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/830664814/fauci-says-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-may-be-more-like-60-000-antibody-tests-on-way

riflebear said:

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Shameful

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Yet, not surprising.

Booray said:

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As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

blackie said:

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Quote:

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Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

Yep

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

blackie said:

---

Quote:

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Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

Bravo

There are seventy-eight (78) COVID-19 vaccine candidates in development right now, with five in clinical trials.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-020-00073-5

blackie said:

---

Quote:

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Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

I don't blame either side early on. When the WHO sends out a tweet in Mid January telling the world that China said that COVID wasn't being transmitted between humans why would anyone take it seriously?

But for the Dems to now rewrite history and blame this on Trump is laughable when they were all calling him racist for putting the China ban on. When Trump was talking about COVID during the State of the Union speech she was literally ignoring him and putting the papers together to tear up.

And to say they weren't listening to medical experts, that's all Trump has been doing - Fauci and the other lady have repeatedly said he's listened and done pretty much everything they've recommended. That's what is so sad about the media, they push lies and conspiracy theories even though the very medical experts have debunked.

There will be plenty of time to look back and make changes and this is the time politicians should not be blaming each other but coming up w/ a plan on how to prevent something like this from happening again. Unfortunately w/ who is President right now and the media combined w/ an election year that will never happen. We'll be hearing both sides playing the blame game through November - it's going to get ugly.

Booray said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

You are missing on this answer- in your first paragraph,

Quote:

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So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19...

---

Did they, or did they not ACTUALLY contract Covid-19? That's the point here. How do they know it wasn't the regular flu, or streptococcal pneumonia? Example- can you list cancer as a cause of death, without even a formal diagnosis of cancer, or a laboratory/pathology confirmation of it? As the doctor in the video stated, that's the irregularity here- you can't list influenza as the cause of someone's respiratory illness without actually confirming that's what it was, so why can you with the coronavirus?

Quote:

---

You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy

---

Comparing a diagnosis of an infectious disease to the cause of a gunshot death being suicide vs. accidental is completely invalid. Claiming an infectious agent was present is definitively proven by a single laboratory test. Not so with determining suicide vs. accidental gunshot wounds. A better analogy using your gunshot death example, would be to claim that because someone who was found bleeding from the head, and there was a gun nearby, that the cause of death was a bullet to the head.... without even establishing that there is indeed a bullet inside that person's head!

No?

Quote:

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There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

That's not even what the point is here. You completely missed it, and I'm confused as to how.

LTbear said:

---

Some encouraging news (in a sense): Fauci is saying there's a chance, because of the actions that have been put in place, that we really could limit this to about 60,000 deaths in the end. I say good "in a sense" because obviously 60,000 is an unfortunate number of lives lost, but far better than projections before the measures the country has taken. Let's hope this really does become limited and start trending in a positive direction soon.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/830664814/fauci-says-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-may-be-more-like-60-000-antibody-tests-on-way

---

So less than the flu 2 years ago

And we got over that without destroying America

That late shelter in place social distancing and the very recent change in Surgeon General policy from DO NOT wear masks they don't help to PLEASE wear masks was a miracle

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes when it has an exotic name and the country is killed

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes;

The cause-of-death information should be the physician's best medical OPINION. Report each disease, abnormality, injury, or poisoning that the physician believes adversely affected the decedent. A condition can be listed as ''probable'' if it has not been definitively diagnosed.

From the CDC Handbook on Medical Certification of Death.

The whole thing is right here if you want to read it. If you do read it, you will realize the guidance given to date is the same guidance that is always used.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

Valhalla, I believe the CDC did estimate that some 61,000 deaths from several strains influenza occurred during the 2017-2018 flu season..They also estimated some 45 million total cases..Mortality rate of Covid-19 infections is apparently higher than past outbreaks of known types of "regular" influenza strains. This virus is a mean one..so far...Be well..

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

You are missing on this answer- in your first paragraph,

Quote:

---

So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19...

---

Did they, or did they not ACTUALLY contract Covid-19? That's the point here. How do they know it wasn't the regular flu, or streptococcal pneumonia? Example- can you list cancer as a cause of death, without even a formal diagnosis of cancer, or a laboratory/pathology confirmation of it? As the doctor in the video stated, that's the irregularity here- you can't list influenza as the cause of someone's respiratory illness without actually confirming that's what it was, so why can you with the coronavirus?

Quote:

---

You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy

---

Comparing a diagnosis of an infectious disease to the cause of a gunshot death being suicide vs. accidental is completely invalid. Claiming an infectious agent was present is definitively proven by a single laboratory test. Not so with determining suicide vs. accidental gunshot wounds. A better analogy using your gunshot death example, would be to claim that because someone who was found bleeding from the head, and there was a gun nearby, that the cause of death was a bullet to the head.... without even establishing that there is indeed a bullet inside that person's head!

No?

Quote:

---

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

That's not even what the point is here. You completely missed it, and I'm confused as to how.

---

I pretty clearly said if you want a definitive answer, ask a forensic pathologist. I gave you the closest analogy I could think of; its not perfect but it does inform the discussion. And I have later provided the CDC Handbook on Medical Certification that says a diagnosis does not have to be certain to be listed. (That handbook was published 17 years before this crisis).

Its pretty clear that the guidance given is consistent with how we have done death certificates for a long time. If you have authority or evidence that suggest to the contrary, lets hear it.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes and yes. Most people who die from flu-related complications are never tested.

ValhallaBear said:

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LTbear said:

---

Some encouraging news (in a sense): Fauci is saying there's a chance, because of the actions that have been put in place, that we really could limit this to about 60,000 deaths in the end. I say good "in a sense" because obviously 60,000 is an unfortunate number of lives lost, but far better than projections before the measures the country has taken. Let's hope this really does become limited and start trending in a positive direction soon.

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/830664814/fauci-says-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-may-be-more-like-60-000-antibody-tests-on-way

---

So less than the flu 2 years ago

And we got over that without destroying America

That late shelter in place social distancing and the very recent change in Surgeon General policy from DO NOT wear masks they don't help to PLEASE wear masks was a miracle

---

How are you not comprehending that potentially keeping it to that low a number is BECAUSE of the measures we've taken? Truly, how?

riflebear said:

---

blackie said:

---

Quote:

---

Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

I don't blame either side early on. When the WHO sends out a tweet in Mid January telling the world that China said that COVID wasn't being transmitted between humans why would anyone take it seriously?

But for the Dems to now rewrite history and blame this on Trump is laughable when they were all calling him racist for putting the China ban on. When Trump was talking about COVID during the State of the Union speech she was literally ignoring him and putting the papers together to tear up.

And to say they weren't listening to medical experts, that's all Trump has been doing - Fauci and the other lady have repeatedly said he's listened and done pretty much everything they've recommended. That's what is so sad about the media, they push lies and conspiracy theories even though the very medical experts have debunked.

There will be plenty of time to look back and make changes and this is the time politicians should not be blaming each other but coming up w/ a plan on how to prevent something like this from happening again. Unfortunately w/ who is President right now and the media combined w/ an election year that will never happen. We'll be hearing both sides playing the blame game through November - it's going to get ugly.

---

Politician use everything to try and promote their narrative. Even a pandemic.

China and WHO are worthless, the true story of what is and has gone on there will never be known, they both play cover.

riflebear said:

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blackie said:

---

Quote:

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Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

I don't blame either side early on. When the WHO sends out a tweet in Mid January telling the world that China said that COVID wasn't being transmitted between humans why would anyone take it seriously?

---

Maybe because of this?

Quote:

---

U.S. Intelligence Warned of Coronavirus Outbreak as Early as November
By Zachary Evans
April 8, 2020 1:45 PM

U.S. intelligence officials warned of an uncontrolled illness in the region of Wuhan, China, in late November, ABC News reported on Wednesday.

The National Center for Medical Intelligence submitted a report based on satellite images and wire and computer intercepts showing a threat to the region's population from the as-yet unidentified contagion, since dubbed the "novel coronavirus" by the World Health Organization. The report apparently raised concerns about the health threat to U.S. military forces in Asia.

"Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," a person familiar with the report told ABC. It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the White House and the Pentagon's Joint Staff.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/u-s-intelligence-warned-of-coronavirus-outbreak-as-early-as-november-report/?fbclid=IwAR13PyNHVIcxvHTbSv5E-xmPIEjCfoEnGzDMaUppqjjW79Ia4hCVXVfmuWw

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

Yep. There are a bunch of generally unhealthy people that would be alive today without Covid-19. It is the cause, but had help since that person had a poor immune system or some other underlying issue.

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes;

The cause-of-death information should be the physician's best medical OPINION. Report each disease, abnormality, injury, or poisoning that the physician believes adversely affected the decedent. A condition can be listed as ''probable'' if it has not been definitively diagnosed.

From the CDC Handbook on Medical Certification of Death.

The whole thing is right here if you want to read it. If you do read it, you will realize the guidance given to date is the same guidance that is always used.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

---

The CDC's procedure is what's under question. That's the issue.

Regarding influenza, when reporting pediatric deaths to the flu, it must be confirmed by a diagnostic test:

from the CDC-
"Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality Surveillance System Influenza-associated deaths in children (persons less than 18 years of age) was added as a nationally notifiable condition in 2004. An influenza-associated pediatric death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness that was confirmed to be influenza by an appropriate laboratory diagnostic test. There should be no period of complete recovery between the illness and death. Demographic and clinical information are collected on each case and are transmitted to CDC."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm

So, the question is, shouldn't they be doing this same kind of careful surveillance of this brand new coronavirus (the one causing the PANDEMIC), for careful study, being a brand new virus and all? I would think that the CDC should consider this coronavirus as an equally notifiable condition as pediatric flu!

If doctors are able to list CoVid-19 as a cause of death without diagnostic confirmation, and tracking the spread and severity of this brand new pandemic-causing virus should be paramount...you don't see a problem here?

Sam Lowry said:

---

riflebear said:

---

blackie said:

---

Quote:

---

Face it, New Yorkers have a lot of bravado, none of these guys really believed it would be so bad here, even though they could already see what was going on in Italy. The New York guys said they had the best Medical system anywhere and just didn't think it would be so bad HERE.

They were wrong, so was virtually everybody else.

---

They were all wrong....Trump, the Dems, the Reps....all of them. Hard to see why they (and some on this board) thought it wasn't a big deal. Sure, we have people get sick of other diseases, but for the most part we have treatments. This thing was showing emphatically that it didn't have an effective treatment or vaccine and was being spread easily. Why would you NOT have thought it wouldn't be a problem. Short answer....it demonstrates the fact that politics in this country is more important than anything else. Trump was too concerned about his re-election and the Dems were too concerned about getting Trump not re-elected. Only when they saw it was becoming a big problem did they finally start to listen to medical people that knew what they were talking about instead of talking out of their a**.

---

I don't blame either side early on. When the WHO sends out a tweet in Mid January telling the world that China said that COVID wasn't being transmitted between humans why would anyone take it seriously?

---

Maybe because of this?

Quote:

---

U.S. Intelligence Warned of Coronavirus Outbreak as Early as November
By Zachary Evans
April 8, 2020 1:45 PM

U.S. intelligence officials warned of an uncontrolled illness in the region of Wuhan, China, in late November, ABC News reported on Wednesday.

The National Center for Medical Intelligence submitted a report based on satellite images and wire and computer intercepts showing a threat to the region's population from the as-yet unidentified contagion, since dubbed the "novel coronavirus" by the World Health Organization. The report apparently raised concerns about the health threat to U.S. military forces in Asia.

"Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," a person familiar with the report told ABC. It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the White House and the Pentagon's Joint Staff.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/u-s-intelligence-warned-of-coronavirus-outbreak-as-early-as-november-report/?fbclid=IwAR13PyNHVIcxvHTbSv5E-xmPIEjCfoEnGzDMaUppqjjW79Ia4hCVXVfmuWw

---

---

Yeah, about that:



"NCMI and the Defense Intelligence Agency spent considerable time over the last 24 hours examining every possible product that could have been identified as related to this topic and have found no such product," said a defense official last night."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/pentagon-denies-abc-news-report-that-intelligence-warned-of-cataclysmic-coronavirus-pandemic-last-november

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes and yes. Most people who die from flu-related complications are never tested.

---

So, don't you see a problem with tallying that as a flu death?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Booray said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Booray said:

---

As far as I can tell, the uproar is over this:

Doctors are being told to list Covid as a cause of death if they believe Covid was a cause of death. Note "a" not "the."

---

Help me out here...I'm not understanding why the "a" vs "the" is even relevant. Should doctors even be declaring a or the cause of death based on what they "believe", without actual laboratory confirmation? And if these declarations are being used to tally Covid-19 deaths, which are in turn reported to the public, wouldn't that matter?

---

Frequently death certificates list multiple causes of death. So for someone suffering from pneumonia who contracts Covid 19 which then exacerbates respiratory distress to the point of death, listing both pneumonia and Covid 19 as "a" cause of death would be appropriate. Listing either without the other as "the" cause of death would be inappropriate.

Which leads to the second part of your question. Should a coroner list "a" cause as being Covid 19 without lab confirmation? You would have to ask a forensic pathologist that question, but I do know that coroners often draw conclusions from non-lab evidence: was the death accidental or suicide? The bullet wound did the same damage, looks the same on the autopsy. But the coroner may use other clues to reach a conclusion or say that he/she can not reach a conclusion.

In this instance it seems to be the guidance is for the doctors to use their judgment in informing the cause of death. Given the circumstances, I do not think that is unreasonable as long as all contributing factors are also listed.

There seems to be a push from the right to say that the only Covid deaths are those that killed an otherwise healthy person. That is not the way it should work and it is not the way it has ever worked, because the world is full of unhealthy people.

---

This.

It's no different from how we handle the flu.

---

Can the flu be listed as a cause of death, without even establishing that they had the flu? And if it was never even verified, should it be tallied as a flu death?

---

Yes;

The cause-of-death information should be the physician's best medical OPINION. Report each disease, abnormality, injury, or poisoning that the physician believes adversely affected the decedent. A condition can be listed as ''probable'' if it has not been definitively diagnosed.

From the CDC Handbook on Medical Certification of Death.

The whole thing is right here if you want to read it. If you do read it, you will realize the guidance given to date is the same guidance that is always used.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

---

The CDC's procedure is what's under question. That's the issue.

Regarding influenza, when reporting pediatric deaths to the flu, it must be confirmed by a diagnostic test:

from the CDC-
"Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality Surveillance System Influenza-associated deaths in children (persons less than 18 years of age) was added as a nationally notifiable condition in 2004. An influenza-associated pediatric death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness that was confirmed to be influenza by an appropriate laboratory diagnostic test. There should be no period of complete recovery between the illness and death. Demographic and clinical information are collected on each case and are transmitted to CDC."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm

So, the question is, shouldn't they be doing this same kind of careful surveillance of this brand new coronavirus (the one causing the PANDEMIC), for careful study, being a brand new virus and all? I would think that the CDC should consider this coronavirus as an equally notifiable condition as pediatric flu!

If doctors are able to list CoVid-19 as a cause of death without diagnostic confirmation, and tracking the spread and severity of this brand new pandemic-causing virus should be paramount...you don't see a problem here?

---

I see a bigger problem in putting more onerous requirements on hospitals and doctors when they are working 24/7 trying to save lives. Doctors should list the likely causes of death, forensic pathologists and epidemiologists should use their best resources to analyze that data. Its not that hard, its been standard practice for decades.