Coronavirus updates here

442,990 Views | 4582 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Jacques Strap
quash
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Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Oldbear83 said:

quash said:



Regression to the mean, basically.
You do love buzz words, quash.

I think the economy will have surprises, good and bad, for the rest of this year. But simple assumptions would be a mistake, in any direction.
A buzzword is something that loses its meaning through repetition. Regression to the mean is a statistics concept.

But thanks for those two fortune cookie bonus sentences, you saved me a trip to the buffet.
Cool story, quash. Using a cliched phrase as you did also 'loses its meaning through repetition', so I stand by my post.

I certainly understand that you are struggling with the content.
I don't know what circles you run in but regression towards the mean is not a cliche where I come from. I hear it maybe twice a year.

"Cool story", now there's a cliche.
Yes it is, and it was appropriate, a cliche to address a cliche.

I see 'regression to the mean' in a lot of internet forums. People use it when they want to sound savvy without actually having to prove anything.

But I am hardly surprised to see you - as usual - deny in reflex. Almost as predictable as you tossing off insults while claiming I am guilty of it, which should come around again your next post or two.
I used it properly. If you think otherwise then explain.

And a cite to actual meaning is not a denial, it is a clarification.
Osodecentx
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Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Doc Holliday said:

blackie said:

Doc Holliday said:

Jack Bauer said:

Uh...oh.

"We are about to see the best economic data we've seen in the history of this country," says a top former economic adviser to Obama.

The general election scenario that Democrats are dreading

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/26/2020-election-democrats-281470
The eagerness to get out + the stimulus checks are going to give us massive and quick economic gains.

Q3 will probably give us the best GDP quarter in modern history.
Doc, I would scale back a little bit to avoid disappointment. The "eagerness to get out" is not shared by probably a third or more of the population that fall into the most at-risk population.....people over 65 and those with underlying conditions. That probably doesn't even account for much less at-risk people who in their families are reluctant in fear of bringing it home to older parents and such that are living with them. It is going to be a while before this group goes back whole hog as long as there is no treatment or convincing signs that the virus has played itself out. Especially when they see crowds of people doing their best to transmit any virus they may be carrying to everyone they can because of their refusal to even consider any transmission precautions.

Without this group of people, it is not reasonable to expect the economy to get back anywhere near where it was. The unemployment numbers will still be abysmal. The stimulus checks.......they have already been spent, unless you are going to send out a whole bunch more. The younger people who are so eager to get out don't have the income or means to make up for those that will be able, but choose not to get out with anything close to their behavior pre-virus.

The only thing you might see is the difference between Q2 and Q3. That could be quite a bit in some areas, but that will only be a relative figure compared to a horrible Q2. Nothing anywhere near the "best GDP quarter in modern history". You have to look at absolutes, not relative comparisons.
My reasoning is that the bigger the fall the bigger the recovery. Not necessarily exceptionalism.

I'm not stating the GDP will be the best it's been but the ratio of it getting better might be the best. Unemployment might be terrible still, but the drop will be massive I suspect. That's a good trend leading into Q4 and next year.

It's pointless to look at absolutes when we all know this is bad for the economy.
Regression to the mean, basically.
You do love buzz words, quash.

I think the economy will have surprises, good and bad, for the rest of this year. But simple assumptions would be a mistake, in any direction.
A buzzword is something that loses its meaning through repetition. Regression to the mean is a statistics concept.

But thanks for those two fortune cookie bonus sentences, you saved me a trip to the buffet.
Cool story, quash. Using a cliched phrase as you did also 'loses its meaning through repetition', so I stand by my post.

I certainly understand that you are struggling with the content.
You don't have to respond to every post, and effective posters don't. It diminishes your impact.

Consider posting less

Oldbear83
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Osodecentx said:

Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Oldbear83 said:

quash said:

Doc Holliday said:

blackie said:

Doc Holliday said:

Jack Bauer said:

Uh...oh.

"We are about to see the best economic data we've seen in the history of this country," says a top former economic adviser to Obama.

The general election scenario that Democrats are dreading

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/26/2020-election-democrats-281470
The eagerness to get out + the stimulus checks are going to give us massive and quick economic gains.

Q3 will probably give us the best GDP quarter in modern history.
Doc, I would scale back a little bit to avoid disappointment. The "eagerness to get out" is not shared by probably a third or more of the population that fall into the most at-risk population.....people over 65 and those with underlying conditions. That probably doesn't even account for much less at-risk people who in their families are reluctant in fear of bringing it home to older parents and such that are living with them. It is going to be a while before this group goes back whole hog as long as there is no treatment or convincing signs that the virus has played itself out. Especially when they see crowds of people doing their best to transmit any virus they may be carrying to everyone they can because of their refusal to even consider any transmission precautions.

Without this group of people, it is not reasonable to expect the economy to get back anywhere near where it was. The unemployment numbers will still be abysmal. The stimulus checks.......they have already been spent, unless you are going to send out a whole bunch more. The younger people who are so eager to get out don't have the income or means to make up for those that will be able, but choose not to get out with anything close to their behavior pre-virus.

The only thing you might see is the difference between Q2 and Q3. That could be quite a bit in some areas, but that will only be a relative figure compared to a horrible Q2. Nothing anywhere near the "best GDP quarter in modern history". You have to look at absolutes, not relative comparisons.
My reasoning is that the bigger the fall the bigger the recovery. Not necessarily exceptionalism.

I'm not stating the GDP will be the best it's been but the ratio of it getting better might be the best. Unemployment might be terrible still, but the drop will be massive I suspect. That's a good trend leading into Q4 and next year.

It's pointless to look at absolutes when we all know this is bad for the economy.
Regression to the mean, basically.
You do love buzz words, quash.

I think the economy will have surprises, good and bad, for the rest of this year. But simple assumptions would be a mistake, in any direction.
A buzzword is something that loses its meaning through repetition. Regression to the mean is a statistics concept.

But thanks for those two fortune cookie bonus sentences, you saved me a trip to the buffet.
Cool story, quash. Using a cliched phrase as you did also 'loses its meaning through repetition', so I stand by my post.

I certainly understand that you are struggling with the content.
You don't have to respond to every post, and effective posters don't. It diminishes your impact.

Consider posting less


This is an internet forum for a relatively small and regional university, primarily designed for sports talk.

This forum is therefore primarily entertainment, and I find it amusing to dissemble the arguments of would-be pundits who cannot even make cogent argument.

If this bothers you, you are not obliged to read. I do find it amusing that you feel less is more, yet you posted on the very same sub-thread within this one on this point.

That is, perhaps take your own advice.

Aliceinbubbleland
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All in favor of closing down this thread!!!
Jack Bauer
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Stupid media...

Jacques Strap
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80% asymptomatic? I do not agree with all of Time's conclusions or suggestions or whatever you want to call them. But 80% WOW.

https://time.com/5842669/coronavirus-asymptomatic-transmission/

Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic, a New Case Report Says

In one cruise-ship coronavirus outbreak, more than 80% of people who tested positive for COVID-19 did not show any symptoms of the disease, according to a new paper (<- link does not work ) published in the journal Thorax.

The research shows just how prevalent asymptomatic transmission of COVID-19 may be a reality that both suggests official case counts are drastic underestimates, and emphasizes the importance of practicing social distancing even if you feel healthy.
Canada2017
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100,000 dead

Don't pass it off .....100,000 tragedies in less than 4 months .

Very sad day .




And we are months away from a vaccine....best case .

Mitch Blood Green
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Canada2017 said:

100,000 dead

Don't pass it off .....100,000 tragedies in less than 4 months .

Very sad day .




And we are months away from a vaccine....best case .




Stay safe my friend.
Bearitto
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Canada2017 said:

100,000 dead

Don't pass it off .....100,000 tragedies in less than 4 months .

Very sad day .




And we are months away from a vaccine....best case .




No. There were some tragedies in that number to be sure, but mostly it was sad. Losing already dying grandpa is sad. Losing working father of 3 school aged kids is a tragedy.

Right now, 43% of all related deaths have been in nursing homes. That doesn't necessarily count those sent to hospital from nursing homes who died outside the nursing home but were residents. The median length of stay in a nursing home before death is 5 months. That's sad, not tragic.
Canada2017
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tommie said:

Canada2017 said:

100,000 dead

Don't pass it off .....100,000 tragedies in less than 4 months .

Very sad day .




And we are months away from a vaccine....best case .




Stay safe my friend.


Thanks Tommie .

You as well .


Florda_mike
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Bearitto said:

Canada2017 said:

100,000 dead

Don't pass it off .....100,000 tragedies in less than 4 months .

Very sad day .




And we are months away from a vaccine....best case .




No. There were some tragedies in that number to be sure, but mostly it was sad. Losing already dying grandpa is sad. Losing working father of 3 school aged kids is a tragedy.

Right now, 43% of all related deaths have been in nursing homes. That doesn't necessarily count those sent to hospital from nursing homes who died outside the nursing home but were residents. The median length of stay in a nursing home before death is 5 months. That's sad, not tragic.



Yeah and not counting books cooked in blue states but that's laughed as conspiracy theory
Jacques Strap
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/28/nurse-thanks-firefighter-new-york/?fbclid=IwAR1_ZzAowLiU_MCEH49ObQY0glmQQtiB_RyAcmR3Tt2Xs6nrDiRIiQZbS5M

A nurse went to New York to work on the front lines and to find the firefighter who saved her life over 36 years ago


Quote:

May 28, 2020 at 4:29 a.m. CDT

For more than three decades, Deirdre Taylor only knew the firefighter who saved her life through the grainy black-and-white photos on the front page of the New York Daily News, on Dec. 30, 1983.
She was only 4 then, a blond, wide-eyed toddler pictured in the paper breathing from a resuscitator in the arms of the firefighter, Eugene Pugliese, who had just carried her out of her burning apartment building.

Taylor, now a registered nurse in Alexandria, Va., kept the Daily News article tucked away in a keepsake binder for years. She wished as she got older that she could find Pugliese and thank him a desire that intensified after she became an emergency room nurse, as she learned how rare it was to hear back from patients she encountered on the worst days of their lives.

But she hadn't lived in New York since the fire, and didn't know where to start. After 9/11, she feared the worst, that Pugliese could have been among the hundreds of firefighters who died in the World Trade Center attacks. She periodically searched his name on Google, finding nothing.

But finally, in March, Taylor thought she may have one last chance to find him.

With her family's support, she decided to move from Virginia to New York for eight weeks to work in an overwhelmed Manhattan emergency room trying to help save the lives of coronavirus patients, while searching for the man who saved hers.



Click the link to read the rest!
riflebear
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whitetrash
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riflebear said:


Jacques Strap
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/05/26/nursing-homes-assisted-living-facilities-0-6-of-the-u-s-population-43-of-u-s-covid-19-deaths/#211c99a574cd

The Most Important COVID-19 Statistic: 43% Of U.S. Deaths Are From 0.6% Of The Population

riflebear
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Thanks Obama

Jacques Strap
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https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52833725

Premier League set to restart on 17 June with Man City v Arsenal and Villa v Sheff Utd

If football in Europe goes well then the odds of Football in America go up.

quash
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riflebear said:


Zac pushes the story farther than necessary: that is a correction, not a retraction. And not central to the original story anyway.

But give Zac a half gotcha point.
Jacques Strap
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https://whdh.com/news/nearly-every-mass-coronavirus-death-was-patient-with-underlying-medical-condition-data-shows/

Data from deaths following completed investigations indicate 98.1 percent (1,289) of people who died after contracting the disease had an underlying condition, such as chronic lung disease, serious heart ailments, obesity, diabetes, chronic kidney disease, or liver disease.


Booray
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Jacques Strap said:

https://whdh.com/news/nearly-every-mass-coronavirus-death-was-patient-with-underlying-medical-condition-data-shows/

Data from deaths following completed investigations indicate 98.1 percent (1,289) of people who died after contracting the disease had an underlying condition, such as chronic lung disease, serious heart ailments, obesity, diabetes, chronic kidney disease, or liver disease.





Would be interested to know how representative of the American public that is. Depending on one's definition of obesity, the list of underlying conditions might describe 50-70% of the population.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#Sex

(40% of Americans qualify as obese)
Jacques Strap
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I wonder about obese definition too booray.
TexasScientist
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Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.
Florda_mike
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TexasScientist said:

Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.


Naw boy, he's safe

He knows the preventative and cure just like nurses and doctors and is on it

Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc

Go take your anti-TDS pill and take a nap
TexasScientist
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Florda_mike said:

TexasScientist said:

Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.


Naw boy, he's safe

He knows the preventative and cure just like nurses and doctors and is on it

Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc

Go take your anti-TDS pill and take a nap
You have an increase risk of death and heart arrhythmias if you or he takes hydroxychloroquine + zinc.

"We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

"hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (238%; 1447, 13681531), chloroquine (164%; 1365, 12181531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (222%; 1368, 12731469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (03%), hydroxychloroquine (61%; 2369, 19352900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (81%; 5106, 41065983), chloroquine (43%; 3561, 27604596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (65%; 4011, 33444812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext



The French, who were one of the first to try this have now banned its use.

France Bars Use Of Hydroxychloroquine In COVID-19 Cases
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/27/863197161/france-bars-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-covid-19-cases
Oldbear83
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The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.


Jacques Strap
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Atlanta FED GDP NOW projection now -51%. I do not think it will be that bad but it will be pretty bad.

https://www.frbatlanta.org/cqer/research/gdpnow

Osodecentx
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TexasScientist said:

Florda_mike said:

TexasScientist said:

Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.


Naw boy, he's safe

He knows the preventative and cure just like nurses and doctors and is on it

Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc

Go take your anti-TDS pill and take a nap
You have an increase risk of death and heart arrhythmias if you or he takes hydroxychloroquine + zinc.

"We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

"hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (238%; 1447, 13681531), chloroquine (164%; 1365, 12181531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (222%; 1368, 12731469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (03%), hydroxychloroquine (61%; 2369, 19352900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (81%; 5106, 41065983), chloroquine (43%; 3561, 27604596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (65%; 4011, 33444812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext



The French, who were one of the first to try this have now banned its use.

France Bars Use Of Hydroxychloroquine In COVID-19 Cases

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/27/863197161/france-bars-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-covid-19-cases
Did the French bar use for those who were hospitalized (and therefore in more serious condition) AND non-hospitalized (who are in better shape)?

The Lancet article reported on Covid patients who were hospitalized. I've seen nothing reporting the efficacy for patients who are COVID positive and not hospitalized.

I'm not pushing hydroxy, but am genuinely curious
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
TexasScientist
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Osodecentx said:

TexasScientist said:

Florda_mike said:

TexasScientist said:

Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.


Naw boy, he's safe

He knows the preventative and cure just like nurses and doctors and is on it

Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc

Go take your anti-TDS pill and take a nap
You have an increase risk of death and heart arrhythmias if you or he takes hydroxychloroquine + zinc.

"We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

"hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (238%; 1447, 13681531), chloroquine (164%; 1365, 12181531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (222%; 1368, 12731469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (03%), hydroxychloroquine (61%; 2369, 19352900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (81%; 5106, 41065983), chloroquine (43%; 3561, 27604596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (65%; 4011, 33444812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext



The French, who were one of the first to try this have now banned its use.

France Bars Use Of Hydroxychloroquine In COVID-19 Cases

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/27/863197161/france-bars-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-covid-19-cases
Did the French bar use for those who were hospitalized (and therefore in more serious condition) AND non-hospitalized (who are in better shape)?

The Lancet article reported on Covid patients who were hospitalized. I've seen nothing reporting the efficacy for patients who are COVID positive and not hospitalized.

I'm not pushing hydroxy, but am genuinely curious
I haven't seen anything published on non-hospitalized.
Oldbear83
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
which rehashed old stories.
Florda_mike
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
which rehashed old stories.


TS is nothing but continual TDS

Again you're communicating with a close minded fool
Osodecentx
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TexasScientist said:

Osodecentx said:

TexasScientist said:

Florda_mike said:

TexasScientist said:

Jacques Strap said:

I wonder about obese definition too booray.
BMI over 30 is obese. 25 - 30 is overweight.

Trump is obese by his reported weight of 245 and 6'3" height. Others, have estimeated his true height based upon his height at 6'1" standing next to known height of other indviduals such as sports figures, which places him well within the obese category at a covid risk of underlying condition. He probably should wear a mask and avoid crowds.


Naw boy, he's safe

He knows the preventative and cure just like nurses and doctors and is on it

Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc

Go take your anti-TDS pill and take a nap
You have an increase risk of death and heart arrhythmias if you or he takes hydroxychloroquine + zinc.

"We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

"hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (238%; 1447, 13681531), chloroquine (164%; 1365, 12181531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (222%; 1368, 12731469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality. Compared with the control group (03%), hydroxychloroquine (61%; 2369, 19352900), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (81%; 5106, 41065983), chloroquine (43%; 3561, 27604596), and chloroquine with a macrolide (65%; 4011, 33444812) were independently associated with an increased risk of de-novo ventricular arrhythmia during hospitalisation."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext



The French, who were one of the first to try this have now banned its use.

France Bars Use Of Hydroxychloroquine In COVID-19 Cases

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/27/863197161/france-bars-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-covid-19-cases
Did the French bar use for those who were hospitalized (and therefore in more serious condition) AND non-hospitalized (who are in better shape)?

The Lancet article reported on Covid patients who were hospitalized. I've seen nothing reporting the efficacy for patients who are COVID positive and not hospitalized.

I'm not pushing hydroxy, but am genuinely curious
I haven't seen anything published on non-hospitalized.
Me neither
TexasScientist
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Florda_mike said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
which rehashed old stories.


TS is nothing but continual TDS

Again you're communicating with a close minded fool
If you don't have an argument go to ad hominem. You should go ahead and follow your dear leader and take hydroxychloroquine. If that doesn't work, you might try some bleach.
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
which rehashed old stories.
Study 96,032 patients, not story. Stories don't mean anything. Where is your new study in support?
Florda_mike
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TexasScientist said:

Florda_mike said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

The study discusses in-hospital use of hydroxychloroquine, not outpatient prescription,

It's also a rehash of old stories.



May 22nd publication.
which rehashed old stories.


TS is nothing but continual TDS

Again you're communicating with a close minded fool
If you don't have an argument go to ad hominem. You should go ahead and follow your dear leader and take hydroxychloroquine. If that doesn't work, you might try some bleach.


Hey airhead

I've been on Hydroxychloroquine going on 2 weeks

No side affects and working for what's it's prescribed for where $105/day pharmaceutical drug didn't

But for you TDS, please never try Hydroxychloroquine

Leave it for the sane and let's keep it from the literally insane
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