Jacques Strap said:

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Booray said:

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COVID stat of the week. When we were shutdown in March, the already overweight Booray household went all in on cooking from home. Plus working from home gave us way too many snacking opportunities. Wearing sweats all the time made it easy to ignore.

Come May I couldn't see my feet. Determined that if I died from COVID I would not let you right wingers claim it was based on co-morbidity, Mrs. Booray and I u-turned. Five months of eating healthy and exercising meant when I stepped on the scale today I was out of the "obese" category as measured by BMI.

Getting out of the overweight category is prettty tough, but it is good to have a goal.

---

Good for you!

I'm down 15 pounds from the high and not done yet. It isn't easy with so much access to the pantry

---

When we started work from home a buddy who had been doing it for a long time said: " you have two enemies. The refrigerator and the TV." He was 100% right.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Your word salad does not remove even the smallest of my rights.

We would have lost any war with your surrender to statism.

Jacques Strap said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Jacques Strap said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Jacques Strap said:

---

1,033,678 deaths (Johns Hopkins) / 750,000,000 cases (WHO) = 0.13% infection fatality rate (a little more than 1/10th of one percent)


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-world-in-for-a-hell-of-a-ride-in-coming-months-dr-mike-ryan-says-1.4370626?mode=amp

WHO official estimates that 750m people globally have likely had coronavirus to date

Quote:

---

An estimated 750 million, or 10 per cent of the world's population, have been infected by Covid-19, World Health Organisation (WHO) official Dr Mike Ryan has said.

---

---

That's not the way IFR is calculated. Think about it.

---

Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR): The number of individuals who die of the disease among all infected individuals (symptomatic and asymptomatic). https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20individuals%20who,symptomatic%20and%20asymptomatic).

---

You're mixing apples and oranges.

---

The CDC IFR formula is fatalities / cases (both symptomatic & asymptomatic) whether you like it or not.

If you don't like the WHO's case count estimate which includes asymptomatic cases - just say you don't believe the WHO's numbers.

If by your apples to oranges comment you are advocating for using only positive tests as your case count for the denominator then you are ignoring asymptomatic cases. Serology testing indicates that there are many who had the virus and were asymptomatic.

More here
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20198796v1.full.pdf

Quote:

---

Dynamic Change of COVID-19 Seroprevalence among Asymptomatic Population in Tokyo during the Second Wave

Serological tests monitored across the course of the second wave can provide insights into the population-level prevalence and dynamic patterns of COVID-19 infection. Objective: To assess changes in COVID-19 seroprevalence among asymptomatic employees working in Tokyo during the second wave.

Participants: Healthy volunteers from 1877 employees of a large Japanese company were recruited to the study from 11 disparate locations across Tokyo. Participants having fever, cough, or shortness of breath at the time of testing were excluded.

Results: Six hundred fifteen healthy volunteers (mean + SD 40.8 + 10.0; range 19 - 69; 45.7 % female) received at least one test. Seroprevalence increased from 5.8 % to 46.8 % over the course of the summer. The most dramatic increase in SPR occurred in late June and early July, paralleling the rise in daily confirmed cases within Tokyo,

Conclusions and Relevance: COVID-19 infection may have spread widely across the general population of Tokyo despite the very low fatality rate.
. Sequential testing for serological response against COVID-19 is useful for understanding the dynamics of COVID-19 infection at the population-level.

---

---

There's nothing wrong with the WHO's case estimate. The problem is with your fatality estimate. As in, you don't have one.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And your drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

People who lived through the war, civilians and military alike, would tell you that it took more than fortitude to win. There was also a sense of duty, national unity, and common purpose. That's what we need during a pandemic, but Trump hasn't shown the kind of leadership it takes.

---

Why stop there? I can't think of anyone in Congress who has shown "leadership' during the Pandemic. Trump's arrogance is matched/surpassed by the behavior of Schumer, Pelosi, et al.

NO one in DC is covered in glory.

---

Trump's arrogance is unmatched. Everybody watching knows that.

Booray said:

---

COVID stat of the week. When we were shutdown in March, the already overweight Booray household went all in on cooking from home. Plus working from home gave us way too many snacking opportunities. Wearing sweats all the time made it easy to ignore.

Come May I couldn't see my feet. Determined that if I died from COVID I would not let you right wingers claim it was based on co-morbidity, Mrs. Booray and I u-turned. Five months of eating healthy and exercising meant when I stepped on the scale today I was out of the "obese" category as measured by BMI.

Getting out of the overweight category is prettty tough, but it is good to have a goal.

---

Congrats on achieving your goal!

Now go and sin no more in adding to making covid a political thing.

cinque said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

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Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And your drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

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People who lived through the war, civilians and military alike, would tell you that it took more than fortitude to win. There was also a sense of duty, national unity, and common purpose. That's what we need during a pandemic, but Trump hasn't shown the kind of leadership it takes.

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Why stop there? I can't think of anyone in Congress who has shown "leadership' during the Pandemic. Trump's arrogance is matched/surpassed by the behavior of Schumer, Pelosi, et al.

NO one in DC is covered in glory.

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Trump's arrogance is unmatched. Everybody watching knows that.

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Says you. Then again, you would qualify as an expert on chutzpah, cinque ...

Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And your drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

People who lived through the war, civilians and military alike, would tell you that it took more than fortitude to win. There was also a sense of duty, national unity, and common purpose. That's what we need during a pandemic, but Trump hasn't shown the kind of leadership it takes.

---

Why stop there? I can't think of anyone in Congress who has shown "leadership' during the Pandemic. Trump's arrogance is matched/surpassed by the behavior of Schumer, Pelosi, et al.

NO one in DC is covered in glory.

---

Pandemics are mainly an executive problem, not a legislative one. The task force and all the agencies planning and implementing the response are under the president's control. Congress certainly screwed up the stimulus bill, but that's about the worst they can do.

---

Disagree. Medical issues are non-political, and while I could rehash things done well by Trump which Democrats actually tried to stop, I think anyone not ruled by malice or connivance would understand that blame is useless in getting work done.

Says more about the people who won't let go of their bitterness, I think ...

Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And your drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

People who lived through the war, civilians and military alike, would tell you that it took more than fortitude to win. There was also a sense of duty, national unity, and common purpose. That's what we need during a pandemic, but Trump hasn't shown the kind of leadership it takes.

---

With so many mixed messages, and a generally cowardly citizenry, I don't know how anyone could unite this mosh pit. It was the bravery of individual men and women that made the most difference by uniting behind a cause. We've lost a lot of the grit from the WWII generation.

Ohhh, I wouldn't say that, exactly.

We have kind of romanticized the "Greatest Generation", and while I do agree some of our finest men and women lived and worked in those days, we saw our share of slovenly and cowardly people. My dad lived through those days and told me about dock workers who would take money to sabotage ships, not to sink them, but to delay the finish so they could make more work to do. He knew people who forged ration coupons to get more sugar and meat, and sometimes cops sold fake ration books to get extra money.

There were men who faked injury to get out of combat roles, and men who deserted and ran to Canada during WW2, just like during Vietnam. There were politicians, local state and federal, who ran against FDR claiming he lied us into the war, and there were people who claimed his "fireside chats" were propaganda hiding how bad our losses really were.

I'm not trying to insult or degrade the character of our fine men and women of the 1940s, but to point out that in every age, there are people who do us proud, and people who act shamefully. Some generations are more honorable than others, but each has its slugs and each has its champions. We have people today who represent our best ideals, and some - like Dan Crenshaw or Tulsi Gabbard, carry that same honorable commitment to duty into political office. Others carry greed and personal ambition into office with them.

It's important to notice the good and support it when we see it.

We're being asked to wear freaking masks and to be responsibly physically distant. That we cannot to that is incomprehensible.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ohhh, I wouldn't say that, exactly.

We have kind of romanticized the "Greatest Generation", and while I do agree some of our finest men and women lived and worked in those days, we saw our share of slovenly and cowardly people. My dad lived through those days and told me about dock workers who would take money to sabotage ships, not to sink them, but to delay the finish so they could make more work to do. He knew people who forged ration coupons to get more sugar and meat, and sometimes cops sold fake ration books to get extra money.

There were men who faked injury to get out of combat roles, and men who deserted and ran to Canada during WW2, just like during Vietnam. There were politicians, local state and federal, who ran against FDR claiming he lied us into the war, and there were people who claimed his "fireside chats" were propaganda hiding how bad our losses really were.

I'm not trying to insult or degrade the character of our fine men and women of the 1940s, but to point out that in every age, there are people who do us proud, and people who act shamefully. Some generations are more honorable than others, but each has its slugs and each has its champions. We have people today who represent our best ideals, and some - like Dan Crenshaw or Tulsi Gabbard, carry that same honorable commitment to duty into political office. Others carry greed and personal ambition into office with them.

It's important to notice the good and support it when we see it.

---

Whether or not there were bad people in that generation and/or being the "greatest"
Is overhyped doesn't change the reality that they had more grit than we have today. It was required because of the lack of convenience we benefit from today, the type of work and adversity they had to face daily, and the type of warfare they fought (drawing it to WWII). Of course we have great people today, but if you evaluate what a culture champions it gives you great insight into the make of the people. We certainly have great social and technical advances that needed to and/or have occurred from the days of that generation, but we are beginning to fail as citizens to deal with adversity without some massive involvement of government, and our military is generally mercenary in nature. We have long abandoned JFK's call all those years ago, and find ourselves plagued by a consumerist "me" society.

ATL Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Ohhh, I wouldn't say that, exactly.

We have kind of romanticized the "Greatest Generation", and while I do agree some of our finest men and women lived and worked in those days, we saw our share of slovenly and cowardly people. My dad lived through those days and told me about dock workers who would take money to sabotage ships, not to sink them, but to delay the finish so they could make more work to do. He knew people who forged ration coupons to get more sugar and meat, and sometimes cops sold fake ration books to get extra money.

There were men who faked injury to get out of combat roles, and men who deserted and ran to Canada during WW2, just like during Vietnam. There were politicians, local state and federal, who ran against FDR claiming he lied us into the war, and there were people who claimed his "fireside chats" were propaganda hiding how bad our losses really were.

I'm not trying to insult or degrade the character of our fine men and women of the 1940s, but to point out that in every age, there are people who do us proud, and people who act shamefully. Some generations are more honorable than others, but each has its slugs and each has its champions. We have people today who represent our best ideals, and some - like Dan Crenshaw or Tulsi Gabbard, carry that same honorable commitment to duty into political office. Others carry greed and personal ambition into office with them.

It's important to notice the good and support it when we see it.

---

Whether or not there were bad people in that generation and/or being the "greatest"
Is overhyped doesn't change the reality that they had more grit than we have today. It was required because of the lack of convenience we benefit from today, the type of work and adversity they had to face daily, and the type of warfare they fought (drawing it to WWII). Of course we have great people today, but if you evaluate what a culture champions it gives you great insight into the make of the people. We certainly have great social and technical advances that needed to and/or have occurred from the days of that generation, but we are beginning to fail as citizens to deal with adversity without some massive involvement of government, and our military is generally mercenary in nature. We have long abandoned JFK's call all those years ago, and find ourselves plagued by a consumerist "me" society.

---

I think you are missing a good chunk of the nation.

I have seen church workers, for example, put together food drives to help people suffering from the pandemic.

I have seen neighborhoods in South Houston march against drug dealers and gangs, literally driving them from their streets.

As a sports official, I have seen adults volunteer time, money and energy to help kids learn discipline, honor and teamwork through sports.

As a political analyst, I have interviewed people from a number of different parties and learned their plans to make America responsive to her people and to replace career politicians with genuine public servants,

I have friends who served in different uniforms, from cops on the beat to a friend who worked undercover in Mexico helping protect the US against narco infiltration. I have friends who went into countries like Iraq before the Special Ops guys, and provided the tools and supplies they needed in advance.

I know oil company owners who gave up their own savings to keep their people employed, and I know young employees who took on additional work to keep their companies afloat. I know teens who still call old people 'maam' and 'sir' because that's what they learned from their moms and dads. I know young people who build their communities.

Don't judge the generation by what the media shows you. There's more to them than you might know.

Oldbear83 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Ohhh, I wouldn't say that, exactly.

We have kind of romanticized the "Greatest Generation", and while I do agree some of our finest men and women lived and worked in those days, we saw our share of slovenly and cowardly people. My dad lived through those days and told me about dock workers who would take money to sabotage ships, not to sink them, but to delay the finish so they could make more work to do. He knew people who forged ration coupons to get more sugar and meat, and sometimes cops sold fake ration books to get extra money.

There were men who faked injury to get out of combat roles, and men who deserted and ran to Canada during WW2, just like during Vietnam. There were politicians, local state and federal, who ran against FDR claiming he lied us into the war, and there were people who claimed his "fireside chats" were propaganda hiding how bad our losses really were.

I'm not trying to insult or degrade the character of our fine men and women of the 1940s, but to point out that in every age, there are people who do us proud, and people who act shamefully. Some generations are more honorable than others, but each has its slugs and each has its champions. We have people today who represent our best ideals, and some - like Dan Crenshaw or Tulsi Gabbard, carry that same honorable commitment to duty into political office. Others carry greed and personal ambition into office with them.

It's important to notice the good and support it when we see it.

---

Whether or not there were bad people in that generation and/or being the "greatest"
Is overhyped doesn't change the reality that they had more grit than we have today. It was required because of the lack of convenience we benefit from today, the type of work and adversity they had to face daily, and the type of warfare they fought (drawing it to WWII). Of course we have great people today, but if you evaluate what a culture champions it gives you great insight into the make of the people. We certainly have great social and technical advances that needed to and/or have occurred from the days of that generation, but we are beginning to fail as citizens to deal with adversity without some massive involvement of government, and our military is generally mercenary in nature. We have long abandoned JFK's call all those years ago, and find ourselves plagued by a consumerist "me" society.

---

I think you are missing a good chunk of the nation.

I have seen church workers, for example, put together food drives to help people suffering from the pandemic.

I have seen neighborhoods in South Houston march against drug dealers and gangs, literally driving them from their streets.

As a sports official, I have seen adults volunteer time, money and energy to help kids learn discipline, honor and teamwork through sports.

As a political analyst, I have interviewed people from a number of different parties and learned their plans to make America responsive to her people and to replace career politicians with genuine public servants,

I have friends who served in different uniforms, from cops on the beat to a friend who worked undercover in Mexico helping protect the US against narco infiltration. I have friends who went into countries like Iraq before the Special Ops guys, and provided the tools and supplies they needed in advance.

I know oil company owners who gave up their own savings to keep their people employed, and I know young employees who took on additional work to keep their companies afloat. I know teens who still call old people 'maam' and 'sir' because that's what they learned from their moms and dads. I know young people who build their communities.

Don't judge the generation by what the media shows you. There's more to them than you might know.

---

Not sure what your point is with the above. I've seen and had the greatest reward by participating in some of the most profound charity imaginable in some of the worst places on earth. Of course our society is capable of acts of great kindness and self sacrifice. You have no argument from me there. Still doesn't change my point above.

No media is framing my worldview. It comes from a great comparative of the many people, cultures and situations I've had the opportunity to be involved with over the years. Most showing the best of humankind and some the worst. It further provides my opinion on the privilege we enjoy as Americans and the impact that has across a broad spectrum of behaviors and perspectives we carry including our collective grit as a society, which has nothing to do with our capacity for empathy.

ATL Bear said:

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cinque said:

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We're being asked to wear freaking masks and to be responsibly physically distant. That we cannot to that is incomprehensible.

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Don't lecture me. Both my wife and daughter got Covid wearing masks, socially distancing, following protocols, quarantining for extended periods, and following the guidelines. Don't assume that's some panacea to beat the virus. Slow the virus? Yes. But the virus is going to virus unless everyone is wearing an air filtered hazmat helmet. As long as you can breathe in and out, particulates are going to get out.

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Chuckle. I wasn't even talking to you. Calm down.

nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

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What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

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Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

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My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

I was addressing where that "grit" you like comes from. It's right there in the hearts, minds and spines of all those young people who change the world through their own hard work and respect for others, not those latte-limp kids who respond to micro-aggressions and can't handle the real world.

ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

Read carefully and think about what I said. As I've already said in another response, I'm talking about an attitude, about the willingess of citizens to incovenience themselves personally and financially in order to support the war effort for everyone. People shouldered up and rationed, bought war bonds etc.in order to win the war and ultimately save lives. It appears some on this board don't have the same willingness and empathy for others. As far as hitting the beaches of Normandy, that required a huge step in that direction. The closest thing we have in this crisis is that of fronline health care professionals and workers.

President Draft Dodging Bone Spur has already indicated he knows nothing about Normandy, and thinks those who gave their lives are loosers, from his own statments. That's your guy who is mismanaging this crisis. So - C'mon!

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And your drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

People who lived through the war, civilians and military alike, would tell you that it took more than fortitude to win. There was also a sense of duty, national unity, and common purpose. That's what we need during a pandemic, but Trump hasn't shown the kind of leadership it takes.

---

Why stop there? I can't think of anyone in Congress who has shown "leadership' during the Pandemic. Trump's arrogance is matched/surpassed by the behavior of Schumer, Pelosi, et al.

NO one in DC is covered in glory.

---

Pandemics are mainly an executive problem, not a legislative one. The task force and all the agencies planning and implementing the response are under the president's control. Congress certainly screwed up the stimulus bill, but that's about the worst they can do.

---

Disagree. Medical issues are non-political, and while I could rehash things done well by Trump which Democrats actually tried to stop, I think anyone not ruled by malice or connivance would understand that blame is useless in getting work done.

Says more about the people who won't let go of their bitterness, I think ...

---

Sam's right. The response is not a political issue as far as the office of president is concerned. It is a duty and responsibility of his office and the Executive Branch as whole. That's what the Executive Branch is there for. The Legislative Branch is there to fund and facilitate, it doesn't have the ability to directly manage the crisis.

TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

nein51 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

nein51 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

---

Welcome

I'd like to introduce you to the delusional TS

Usually it's obvious TDS he suffers from

Anyway, constant mental illness can be observed

Some posters on here, given the chance, would never have ordered the invasion of the beaches of Normandy because it would have been estimated to lose too many lives. Lot's of General George B. McClellans on here. His attitude of "the enemy is always too big, and the other generals are too reckless, but by gosh, my men are well trained" almost lost the war for the North. He also almost became president. Would have been a disaster.

TexasScientist said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

Read carefully and think about what I said. As I've already said in another response, I'm talking about an attitude, about the willingess of citizens to incovenience themselves personally and financially in order to support the war effort for everyone. People shouldered up and rationed, bought war bonds etc.in order to win the war and ultimately save lives. It appears some on this board don't have the same willingness and empathy for others. As far as hitting the beaches of Normandy, that required a huge step in that direction. The closest thing we have in this crisis is that of fronline health care professionals and workers.

President Draft Dodging Bone Spur has already indicated he knows nothing about Normandy, and thinks those who gave their lives are loosers, from his own statments. That's your guy who is mismanaging this crisis. So - C'mon!

---

The disease is and has been aerosolized. The courage is to live life not hide from it. The attitude or belief we're going to quarantine, mask, and social distance our way out of this is absurd. Blame Trump, Cuomo, American attitudes or who/whatever, but it's firmly here and you or someone near you is going to get it if they haven't already And they'll be fine. Perhaps that realism is as valuable if not more so than the comfort some feel assuaged by with half measures of avoidance. Fortunately it's not a very dangerous enemy. Take your vitamin regimen, get outdoor exercise of some sort, and fight on.

Insane

Jack Bauer said:

---

Insane

---

I think this one tops that one. FYI she is the "conservative" opinion writer at the Washington Post.

TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

We really aren't closing in on WWII deaths. Nice try though

ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

Read carefully and think about what I said. As I've already said in another response, I'm talking about an attitude, about the willingess of citizens to incovenience themselves personally and financially in order to support the war effort for everyone. People shouldered up and rationed, bought war bonds etc.in order to win the war and ultimately save lives. It appears some on this board don't have the same willingness and empathy for others. As far as hitting the beaches of Normandy, that required a huge step in that direction. The closest thing we have in this crisis is that of fronline health care professionals and workers.

President Draft Dodging Bone Spur has already indicated he knows nothing about Normandy, and thinks those who gave their lives are loosers, from his own statments. That's your guy who is mismanaging this crisis. So - C'mon!

---

The disease is and has been aerosolized. The courage is to live life not hide from it. The attitude or belief we're going to quarantine, mask, and social distance our way out of this is absurd. Blame Trump, Cuomo, American attitudes or who/whatever, but it's firmly here and you or someone near you is going to get it if they haven't already And they'll be fine. Perhaps that realism is as valuable if not more so than the comfort some feel assuaged by with half measures of avoidance. Fortunately it's not a very dangerous enemy. Take your vitamin regimen, get outdoor exercise of some sort, and fight on.

---

The pandemic is not like a war. Nobody is going to surrender.

So, mask wearing and social distancing will not get us "victory." But those measures along with good hygiene will save lives and misery. Based on all that, I understand the objections to lock down orders, school closures, etc. It baffles me why mask wearing, staying 6 feet apart and the coming battle-being vaccinated-are small sacrifices some Americans won't make.

nein51 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

nein51 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

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Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

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With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

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407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.