Tampa Pastor Arrested for Packing Mega Church During Coronavirus

Controversial Tampa pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was arrested and charged with unlawful assembly and for violating health and safety rules on Sunday (March 29) when he packed River Church amid the coronavirus pandemic.

During his service, Howard-Browne said that his church would remain open despite local government ordering all places of worship to close. He could be heard telling churchgoers in a video of the service, "The only time the church will close is when the Rapture is taking place."

https://www.vladtv.com/article/261550/tampa-pastor-arrested-for-packing-mega-church-during-coronavirus?page=2

BaylorFTW said:

---

Tampa Pastor Arrested for Packing Mega Church During Coronavirus

Controversial Tampa pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was arrested and charged with unlawful assembly and for violating health and safety rules on Sunday (March 29) when he packed River Church amid the coronavirus pandemic.

During his service, Howard-Browne said that his church would remain open despite local government ordering all places of worship to close. He could be heard telling churchgoers in a video of the service, "The only time the church will close is when the Rapture is taking place."

https://www.vladtv.com/article/261550/tampa-pastor-arrested-for-packing-mega-church-during-coronavirus?page=2

---

Civil rights out the window. This needs to stop.

tommie said:

---

Bearitto said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

Tampa Pastor Arrested for Packing Mega Church During Coronavirus

Controversial Tampa pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was arrested and charged with unlawful assembly and for violating health and safety rules on Sunday (March 29) when he packed River Church amid the coronavirus pandemic.

During his service, Howard-Browne said that his church would remain open despite local government ordering all places of worship to close. He could be heard telling churchgoers in a video of the service, "The only time the church will close is when the Rapture is taking place."

https://www.vladtv.com/article/261550/tampa-pastor-arrested-for-packing-mega-church-during-coronavirus?page=2

---

Civil rights out the window. This needs to stop.

---

He doesn't have the right to further spread this virus throughout the community.

This is what they are protecting against. It's not his right to preach the word.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

---

He's not spreading anything. If you are susceptible, stay home. Self quarantine. You don't have the right to tell other free men and women who aren't statistically in any danger whatsoever to stay home and starve. Church or not, telling people how to live their lives will get you advice on exactly how to go and make sweet love to yourself with a cheese grater.

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

Would an imam be threatened with arrest at a mosque gathering?

---

Would you want him to be?

---

Just asking, not suggesting. Nice try, though.

I'm glad I don't have to make the decision(s) on shutting down the country ... glad I don't have to adjudicate this case.

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

Would an imam be threatened with arrest at a mosque gathering?

---

Would you want him to be?

---

Just asking, not suggesting. Nice try, though.

---

I'm asking. Should an Imam in violation of a non discriminatory order that protectors the public be allowed to violate the order?

---

Treat it the same way if they are enforcing it.

Bruin said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

Would an imam be threatened with arrest at a mosque gathering?

---

Would you want him to be?

---

Just asking, not suggesting. Nice try, though.

---

I'm asking. Should an Imam in violation of a non discriminatory order that protectors the public be allowed to violate the order?

---

Treat it the same way if they are enforcing it.

---

Does anyone know how mosques and masjids are reacting to lockdown orders?

Well a megachurch of this size will likely spread the illness to a bunch of people.

Howard-Browne's services are characterized by laying of hands and worshipers giggling with apparent drunkenness, speaking in tongues, making animal noises, breaking into uncontrollable holy laughter, shaking with mirth, dancing in the aisles, or falling to the ground.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-TBT-2][2][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-M&G-3][3][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-carnes-4][4][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-ravitz-5][5][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-VOA-6][6][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-NunNews-16][16][/url] He refers to himself as "God's bartender" and the "holy ghost bartender".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-carnes-4][4][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne#cite_note-TBT-2][2][/url]


The guy is a nut too. That doesn't mean he can't freely be a Pastor, lot's of folks are intoxicated by his brand of Christianity, but if he defied a legal order, designed for the safety of the general public, it is what it is.

I think the issue is price. We all agree that money should not come before saving lives, but it's absurd to ignore the economic cost, especially given how many people would never get the virus but will see their life savings wrecked because someone else, who sees no personal cost, demands it.

Way too much emotion in the debate, not enough real discussion.

BaylorFTW said:

---

Tampa Pastor Arrested for Packing Mega Church During Coronavirus

Controversial Tampa pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was arrested and charged with unlawful assembly and for violating health and safety rules on Sunday (March 29) when he packed River Church amid the coronavirus pandemic.

During his service, Howard-Browne said that his church would remain open despite local government ordering all places of worship to close. He could be heard telling churchgoers in a video of the service, "The only time the church will close is when the Rapture is taking place."

https://www.vladtv.com/article/261550/tampa-pastor-arrested-for-packing-mega-church-during-coronavirus?page=2

---

I am sure a number of Pastors will be considering defying the law on Easter Sunday (A Sunday a Presbyterian Minister described to me as "Pay Day"). I wonder if Authorities might avoid all this, by telling them that "We won't be arresting the Pastor if the Congregation meets and violates the health guidelines, but bring your bedroll and your toothbrushes with you because you will be in quarantine together. "

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of those got sick and one is already dead. Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing. There are folks putting together prayer groups to go pray at hospitals. It won't work, but it won't work just as effectively from your own home. Livestream it. By now the whole country knows how to use Zoom.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

twd74 said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

Tampa Pastor Arrested for Packing Mega Church During Coronavirus

Controversial Tampa pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was arrested and charged with unlawful assembly and for violating health and safety rules on Sunday (March 29) when he packed River Church amid the coronavirus pandemic.

During his service, Howard-Browne said that his church would remain open despite local government ordering all places of worship to close. He could be heard telling churchgoers in a video of the service, "The only time the church will close is when the Rapture is taking place."

https://www.vladtv.com/article/261550/tampa-pastor-arrested-for-packing-mega-church-during-coronavirus?page=2

---

I am sure a number of Pastors will be considering defying the law on Easter Sunday (A Sunday a Presbyterian Minister described to me as "Pay Day"). I wonder if Authorities might avoid all this, by telling them that "We won't be arresting the Pastor if the Congregation meets and violates the health guidelines, but bring your bedroll and your toothbrushes with you because you will be in quarantine together. "

---

That presupposes the police force has the manpower to do such things and that people will adhere to their orders. We already have instances in Italy and China where people are pushing back. This is a delicate situation. For example, what if the church just decides they are going to have a chain of people to become the new pastor every time they arrest the current one so the services continue. Or they decide they won't allow the police into the church or have the pastor be taken. The police could try an end run by barring all the doors but that is begging for all kinds of dangerous escalations by the crowd. The negative PR that would come the way of the police would all but require them to relent at some point.

Jinx 2 said:

---

quash said:

---

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of thosevgot sick and one is already dead..Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

---

The public health considerations should trump here.

"Stupid behavior" isn't being "crimninalized" permanently. It's being temporarily restricted for the public good.

The argument is the same as that for vaccines A small subset of people shouldn't be free to put the entire population at risk. We should have enough of a social contract and enough faith in science and doctors, like Anthony Fauci, who are telling people what they need to do, to insist people do that in the short term.

One thing that galls me about these selfish preachers is that it's likely healthcare workers will be infected and will die because of their bad decision. Not acceptable.

---

We either have rights protected by the Constitution or we have privileges subject to revocation in times of emergency.

This president's modus operandi is crisis.

I'll take the Constitution over authoritarian whim any day.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Bruin said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

Would an imam be threatened with arrest at a mosque gathering?

---

Would you want him to be?

---

Just asking, not suggesting. Nice try, though.

---

I'm asking. Should an Imam in violation of a non discriminatory order that protectors the public be allowed to violate the order?

---

Treat it the same way if they are enforcing it.

---

Does anyone know how mosques and masjids are reacting to lockdown orders?

---

Islam leaves it up to the clerics, terrific discussion here: https://www.islam21c.com/islamic-law/closing-mosques-islamic-justifications-for-coronavirus-lockdowns/

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Bruin said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

tommie said:

---

Art Vandelay said:

---

Would an imam be threatened with arrest at a mosque gathering?

---

Would you want him to be?

---

Just asking, not suggesting. Nice try, though.

---

I'm asking. Should an Imam in violation of a non discriminatory order that protectors the public be allowed to violate the order?

---

Treat it the same way if they are enforcing it.

---

Does anyone know how mosques and masjids are reacting to lockdown orders?

---

Islam leaves it up to the clerics, terrific discussion here: https://www.islam21c.com/islamic-law/closing-mosques-islamic-justifications-for-coronavirus-lockdowns/

---

The same thing is happening with ultra-orthodox Jews, the Haredi.

Booray said:

---

quash said:

---

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of those got sick and one is already dead. Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing. There are folks putting together prayer groups to go pray at hospitals. It won't work, but it won't work just as effectively from your own home. Livestream it. By now the whole country knows how to use Zoom.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

---

The problem isn't that the parishoners get infected. It is that they spread it, cause more illness and contribute to breaking our medical system.

If the government wants to prevent or breakup any and all large religious gatherings, it won't be violating anyone's 1st amendment rights in doing so.The law or order that results in restrictions on religious assembly would be viewed under the strict scrutiny test as it restricts a fundamental right. The burden would be on the government to demonstrate:

[ol]

the law or order is necessary to a "compelling state interest";

that the law or order is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose;

and that the law or order uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.

[/ol]
The government would surely be able to meet that burden,

---

Oh it's a violation, the question is whether or not it is permissible. I'll give you number one, but two and three are going to be judged in hindsight. So we'll see.

quash said:

---

Booray said:

---

quash said:

---

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of those got sick and one is already dead. Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing. There are folks putting together prayer groups to go pray at hospitals. It won't work, but it won't work just as effectively from your own home. Livestream it. By now the whole country knows how to use Zoom.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

---

The problem isn't that the parishoners get infected. It is that they spread it, cause more illness and contribute to breaking our medical system.

If the government wants to prevent or breakup any and all large religious gatherings, it won't be violating anyone's 1st amendment rights in doing so.The law or order that results in restrictions on religious assembly would be viewed under the strict scrutiny test as it restricts a fundamental right. The burden would be on the government to demonstrate:

[ol]

the law or order is necessary to a "compelling state interest";

that the law or order is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose;

and that the law or order uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.

[/ol]
The government would surely be able to meet that burden,

---

Oh it's a violation, the question is whether or not it is permissible. I'll give you number one, but two and three are going to be judged in hindsight. So we'll see.

---

I would say it is a restriction, not a violation.

I have never really understood the difference between 2 & 3

How could the law or order be more narrowly tailored to achieve the purpose? What less restrictive means exist?

Jinx 2 said:

---

quash said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

quash said:

---

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of thosevgot sick and one is already dead..Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

---

The public health considerations should trump here.

"Stupid behavior" isn't being "crimninalized" permanently. It's being temporarily restricted for the public good.

The argument is the same as that for vaccines A small subset of people shouldn't be free to put the entire population at risk. We should have enough of a social contract and enough faith in science and doctors, like Anthony Fauci, who are telling people what they need to do, to insist people do that in the short term.

One thing that galls me about these selfish preachers is that it's likely healthcare workers will be infected and will die because of their bad decision. Not acceptable.

---

We either have rights protected by the Constitution or we have privileges subject to revocation in times of emergency.

This president's modus operandi is crisis.

I'll take the Constitution over authoritarian whim any day.

---

Members of a religious congregation do not have the right to put the remainder of the community at risk during a pandemic. Just as they should not have the right to restrict the methods of contraception available through various insurance plans or in various states or restrict access to certain medical procedures they deem unacceptable to God.

(For example, suppose we had a president or state governor who opposed blood transfusions because he is a Jehovah's Witness and thus sought to outlaw them for everyone, because that's God's will.)

---

Your contraception example doesn't fit here. Not providing insurance that pays for something is not the same as restricting access to that something. If they restrict access to blood transfusions or medical procedures outright, then no, they don't have that right. But if they don't want to help pay for it, they should be able to refuse. If you don't like their insurance plan, then get your own, or don't take the job.

So the police officer that issued the arrest warrant of the Tampa pastor is claiming he received an anonymous tip. The Tampa pastor actually turned himself in. This clip includes the arresting police officer and some other city spokesman talking about public safety and what not.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

quash said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

quash said:

---

I'm not a fan of criminalizing stupid behavior, which is what this is. A church in Washington held a choir practice, half showed up and over half of thosevgot sick and one is already dead..Despite lots of Purell and no hugging and an attempt at distancing.

I am one of a handful of attorneys in my 10 county region signed up to be appointed counsel for folks who get arrested under Ch 81 of our state health code. I'll defend their right to make stupid choices because I think this law is wrong.

---

The public health considerations should trump here.

"Stupid behavior" isn't being "crimninalized" permanently. It's being temporarily restricted for the public good.

The argument is the same as that for vaccines A small subset of people shouldn't be free to put the entire population at risk. We should have enough of a social contract and enough faith in science and doctors, like Anthony Fauci, who are telling people what they need to do, to insist people do that in the short term.

One thing that galls me about these selfish preachers is that it's likely healthcare workers will be infected and will die because of their bad decision. Not acceptable.

---

We either have rights protected by the Constitution or we have privileges subject to revocation in times of emergency.

This president's modus operandi is crisis.

I'll take the Constitution over authoritarian whim any day.

---

Members of a religious congregation do not have the right to put the remainder of the community at risk during a pandemic. Just as they should not have the right to restrict the methods of contraception available through various insurance plans or in various states or restrict access to certain medical procedures they deem unacceptable to God.

(For example, suppose we had a president or state governor who opposed blood transfusions because he is a Jehovah's Witness and thus sought to outlaw them for everyone, because that's God's will.)

---

Your contraception example doesn't fit here. Not providing insurance that pays for something is not the same as restricting access to that something. If they restrict access to blood transfusions or medical procedures outright, then no, they don't have that right. But if they don't want to help pay for it, they should be able to refuse. If you don't like their insurance plan, then get your own, or don't take the job.

---

She will shoehorn her contraception into everything.

Please turn to page 64 in your hymnal and sing along.