Please explain "real chance at a great education" and advance some of the factors that go in to from from your point of view.Porteroso said:I agree that communities tend to have different struggles. We'll just see what he says. I really wonder how he knows so much about all black Americans, internally, that he can tell us they won't face their problems. Like I said, an incredible statement.D. C. Bear said:I was answering you question about familial breakup.Porteroso said:I'm not saying all cultures experience all problems equally. I want to understand, before going off on oldbear, why he thinks blacks are "unwilling to address their own internal issues."D. C. Bear said:
While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.
https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431
I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
That's an incredible statement on several levels, and I'm blown away enough that I want to understand more of why he thinks that, or even finds that to be an acceptable thing to say. I get that it's the internet and all, but still.
The problem with his statement is that it treats an entire ethnic group as monolithic. There are, however, a wide number of problems in the African American community that tend to be more severe than those same problems in the broader population. There are also those who benefit from a poor relationship between law enforcement and the African American community.
Black Americans face 1 major challenge, generational poverty. For the sake of argument, take an educated white person. If that person falls into poverty for more than 3 years, the chances of regaining economic stability are very slim. Many black Americans coming from generational poverty never have a real shot. We can talk (and many on this forum do) about how everyone has the chance to make something of themselves, but it's not really true, if you've ever cared to even read an article about it. Poverty, especially when it's the only condition your entire family, and your friends, have ever known, is incredibly difficult to come out of. And it doesn't just affect blacks, there are Hispanic, white, Native American families that deal with it, and it's hard for any of them to come out of it.
My opinion is that we could combat poverty in a way that doesn't account for race, just bend over backwards at the local, state, and federal level, to give anyone in poverty a real chance at a great education. You could get all of America behind that, but before we can talk about that, we have to recognize that poverty is a problem, and we need to recognize that for many reasons, generational poverty, especially generational poverty that traces its roots back to slavery, is really, really bad for society.
And here we are, back at square one. Oldbear, why does "ignorance" so succinctly describe "generational poverty that traces its roots back to slavery?"
Apologize for being White
18,256 Views |
185 Replies |
Last: 3 yr ago by Waco1947
Because of slavery and separation of familiesD. C. Bear said:Porteroso said:Wait, what? Where is the hypocrisy? Can you remember what we're talking about?Quote:
"There are some very good minds on each side, who go to trouble to present their arguments rationally. There are also others who do nothing but troll or attack. You may notice I have take Florda to task from time to time for such comments, but literally none of you on the left ever challenge someone on your own side to raise their game.
As long as you continue such hypocrisy, it's impossible to consider you interested in a real discussion."
That hypocrisy is your behavior right now, Porteroso. But moving on:Quote:
This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."Quote:
Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.I just want this one question answered. Is that too hard? How does ignorance "succinctly describe" generational poverty?Quote:
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?I'm curious, what does this mean? Black people won't deal with their "own internal issues?" On the face of it, it sounds incredibly backwards. I can let you explain why you think that violence isn't an issue independent of skin color, one that all of us need to be dealing with in our own neighborhoods.Quote:
(oldbear dismisses the necessity of Affirmative Action)... and yet the groups which have received the most are unwilling to address their own internal issues. Black on black crime remains the greatest criminal threat in the country, the lack of nuclear families keeps generations of Americans in poverty and lacing a vital stability in their hopes and dreams.
I'll let you explain why familial breakup is a black person problem, and not something that plagues every human.
The rest of your post is a weak attempt at discrediting the idea of systemic racism. I think the term is far overused, but to deny that the general "system," or more accurately, the economy, the education system, the job market, the justice system, is racist, is ridiculous, and we can clear that up right away with objective metrics.
I haven't even gotten to the point where I talk much about my own opinion, I've been asking you now for several posts why you think ignorance describes generational poverty.
While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.
https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431
I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
nein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
It does if you are overly medicated .
Waco1947 said:Because of slavery and separation of familiesD. C. Bear said:Porteroso said:Wait, what? Where is the hypocrisy? Can you remember what we're talking about?Quote:
"There are some very good minds on each side, who go to trouble to present their arguments rationally. There are also others who do nothing but troll or attack. You may notice I have take Florda to task from time to time for such comments, but literally none of you on the left ever challenge someone on your own side to raise their game.
As long as you continue such hypocrisy, it's impossible to consider you interested in a real discussion."
That hypocrisy is your behavior right now, Porteroso. But moving on:Quote:
This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."Quote:
Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.I just want this one question answered. Is that too hard? How does ignorance "succinctly describe" generational poverty?Quote:
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?I'm curious, what does this mean? Black people won't deal with their "own internal issues?" On the face of it, it sounds incredibly backwards. I can let you explain why you think that violence isn't an issue independent of skin color, one that all of us need to be dealing with in our own neighborhoods.Quote:
(oldbear dismisses the necessity of Affirmative Action)... and yet the groups which have received the most are unwilling to address their own internal issues. Black on black crime remains the greatest criminal threat in the country, the lack of nuclear families keeps generations of Americans in poverty and lacing a vital stability in their hopes and dreams.
I'll let you explain why familial breakup is a black person problem, and not something that plagues every human.
The rest of your post is a weak attempt at discrediting the idea of systemic racism. I think the term is far overused, but to deny that the general "system," or more accurately, the economy, the education system, the job market, the justice system, is racist, is ridiculous, and we can clear that up right away with objective metrics.
I haven't even gotten to the point where I talk much about my own opinion, I've been asking you now for several posts why you think ignorance describes generational poverty.
While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.
https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431
I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
Probably not.
Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
You literally said slavery. Don't back down from that. Slavery is an excellent example of why families were torn apart...157 or more years ago. Today that's a bull**** excuse.
Brickleberry has an amazing scene where Denzel (the black park ranger) says "my daddy was a cop, his daddy was a cop, his daddy was a cop, his daddy was a farmer...but he really didn't have a choice".
If you want to argue incarceration separates black families I would agree with you. It's most certainly not the only or maybe even the biggest factor. Only 2.7% of the US adult population is under supervision (jail, prison, bond, etc) and they make up 34% of that 2.7%. Which is to say, being in "jail" isn't really that common for anyone, as in 97.3% of US adults are not in prison.
You'll never go backtommie said:
I'm sorry for being white.
Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
D. C. Bear said:Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
In your opinion what event in the 60's contributed to the increase in single parentage ?
Canada2017 said:D. C. Bear said:Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
In your opinion what event in the 60's contributed to the increase in single parentage ?
It is hard to tell with precision. A lot was going on in the 1960s.
D. C. Bear said:Canada2017 said:D. C. Bear said:Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
In your opinion what event in the 60's contributed to the increase in single parentage ?
It is hard to tell with precision. A lot was going on in the 1960s.
I remember ....almost as looney as it is today .
Personally I believe it was the reduction of the black owned businesses . Don't have any data to support this view.
But I remember as a kid in Mobile, Alabama there was a stable and distinct black community .
WelfareCanada2017 said:D. C. Bear said:Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
In your opinion what event in the 60's contributed to the increase in single parentage ?
Yep. When the gov't subsidizes unwed pregnancy, welfare goes from an emergency rescue to a way of life.Oldbear83 said:WelfareCanada2017 said:D. C. Bear said:Waco1947 said:Do some research. Ignorance does not entitle you to make comments about the disintegration of the black family in America. It was a systemic way of the white council and the KKK to control the blacks -- kill their man.through torture and lynching, in 2000s incarcerate the black mannein51 said:
Yeah those missing parents were definitely separated by slavery 157 years ago. That certainly explains the current issue.
Speaking of research and ignorance, while African American kids were more likely than white kids to live in single parent homes even in 1880, the big jump in percentage of African American kids being in a single parent home was after 1960. If we want to find the causes, we need to look in the right timeframe.
In your opinion what event in the 60's contributed to the increase in single parentage ?
In the mid 60s, births by unwed mothers was at 25%, today it's 77%. Time and time again Candace Owens has said until she's blue in the face that racism is NOT the number one problem for black people, #1 goes to absent fathers.
For decades left wing liberal policies have done nothing for the African American community except create a culture of dependency and poverty. A vicious cycle of empty promises for votes.
It's slow, but black people are starting to wake up to the scam the political left has been pulling for the past six decades. Today's democrats are the most racist and vile part of American politics.
Bill Maher, unlikely voice of reason.
It's a wonder some people have children.
Jack Bauer said:
It's a wonder some people have children.
Those parents are unfit and should be neutered/spayed and give up the kids. It's the only chance those kids have at getting an education.
Americans should no longer be allowed to reproduce. We have become way too stupid. The gene pool is on the decline.br53 said:Jack Bauer said:
It's a wonder some people have children.
Those parents are unfit and should be neutered/spayed and give up the kids. It's the only chance those kids have at getting an education.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"
-- Barack Obama
-- Barack Obama
"White privilege" is a pernicious lie.
D. C. Bear said:
"White privilege" is a pernicious lie.
Privilege is real. Certain people have built in advantages. If I wanted to be an NBA player a person who is 6'6" has an advantage or privilege, if you will.
That you need to do something about it or feel guilty...that's the lie.
nein51 said:D. C. Bear said:
"White privilege" is a pernicious lie.
Privilege is real. Certain people have built in advantages. If I wanted to be an NBA player a person who is 6'6" has an advantage or privilege, if you will.
That you need to do something about it or feel guilty...that's the lie.
What some people call "white privilege" is actually "black people being treated like crap." In many cases, black people do get treated like crap. However, it is not "white privilege" to not be treated like crap.
One guy does not make his argumentJack Bauer said:
That's exactly what this is....one guy just made his argument.Waco1947 said:One guy does not make his argumentJack Bauer said:
What if what one "learns" in life is counter to your narrative? Grew up in San Antonio on the south side with a large percentage of Hispanics. Didn't make much difference to me. Then busing and forced integration happened a year or two before I started high school in 1970. Result - white flight by many to the north side. My high school was almost equally mixed anglo, black, and Hispanic as a result of the closing of an almost all black high school, and new district attendance requirements. Managed to just make everyone unhappy. Stayed home several days my senior year due to random hallway beatings perpetrated by blacks. Was just glad to leave. Went to Baylor where these problems didn't exist. Takeway/lesson? Obviously, my quality of life was better in the bubble.engiBEAR said:It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.bearassnekkid said:I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?engiBEAR said:Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.bearassnekkid said:Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.engiBEAR said:Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.whitetrash said:What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.Jack Bauer said:
Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.
Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"
Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.
And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?
And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"
What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.
There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...
I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.
The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.
I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
curtpenn said:Stayed home several days my senior year due to random hallway beatings perpetrated by blacks. Was just glad to leave. Went to Baylor where these problems didn't exist. Takeway/lesson? Obviously, my quality of life was better in the bubble.engiBEAR said:It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.bearassnekkid said:I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?engiBEAR said:Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.bearassnekkid said:Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.engiBEAR said:Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.whitetrash said:What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.Jack Bauer said:
Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.
Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"
Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.
And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?
And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"
What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.
There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...
I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.
The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.
I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
In 1972 they started busing black kids into my high school. The black students were (justifiably) furious . They didn't want to get bused clear across town . Fights broke out constantly . Teachers were threatened , principal got beat up. KKK and Black Panthers stuffed their propaganda in our lockers . One brawl in the lunch room was so huge it made Walter Cronkite's CBS national news. Argued for 18 months with a proud, very smart black girl about everything under the sun . At our 10 year reunion we met and I introduced her to my wife. She introduced us to her white husband . I absolutely loved it .
Dang Canada. You are an old fart!!! I must remember to always respect my elders. (Even Aggies). LOL!Canada2017 said:curtpenn said:Stayed home several days my senior year due to random hallway beatings perpetrated by blacks. Was just glad to leave. Went to Baylor where these problems didn't exist. Takeway/lesson? Obviously, my quality of life was better in the bubble.engiBEAR said:It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.bearassnekkid said:I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?engiBEAR said:Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.bearassnekkid said:Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.engiBEAR said:Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.whitetrash said:What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.Jack Bauer said:
Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.
Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"
Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.
And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?
And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"
What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.
There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...
I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.
The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.
I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
In 1972 they started busing black kids into my high school. The black students were (justifiably) furious . They didn't want to get bused clear across town . Fights broke out constantly . Teachers were threatened , principal got beat up. KKK and Black Panthers stuffed their propaganda in our lockers . One brawl in the lunch room was so huge it made Walter Cronkite's CBS national news. Argued for 18 months with a proud, very smart black girl about everything under the sun . At our 10 year reunion we met and I introduced her to my wife. She introduced us to her white husband . I absolutely loved it .
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"
-- Barack Obama
-- Barack Obama
RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Dang Canada. You are an old fart!!! I must remember to always respect my elders. (Even Aggies). LOL!Canada2017 said:curtpenn said:Stayed home several days my senior year due to random hallway beatings perpetrated by blacks. Was just glad to leave. Went to Baylor where these problems didn't exist. Takeway/lesson? Obviously, my quality of life was better in the bubble.engiBEAR said:It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.bearassnekkid said:I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?engiBEAR said:Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.bearassnekkid said:Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.engiBEAR said:Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.whitetrash said:What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.Jack Bauer said:
Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.
Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"
Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.
And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?
And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"
What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.
There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...
I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.
The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.
I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
In 1972 they started busing black kids into my high school. The black students were (justifiably) furious . They didn't want to get bused clear across town . Fights broke out constantly . Teachers were threatened , principal got beat up. KKK and Black Panthers stuffed their propaganda in our lockers . One brawl in the lunch room was so huge it made Walter Cronkite's CBS national news. Argued for 18 months with a proud, very smart black girl about everything under the sun . At our 10 year reunion we met and I introduced her to my wife. She introduced us to her white husband . I absolutely loved it .
Its official .......old fart status has been reached.
Just turned 65.......and I cant do any whitewater rafting because of C-19.
Luckily my grandsons make everything perfect.
Trivia note: most of the kids in my neighborhood went to Ken Starr's alma mater, Sam Houston HS. My mother was a public school teacher and didn't want me going there. There were a few ways to get a transfer from one's newly designated district. One way was to take courses not offered in your assigned school. Mostly intended for vocational education. Anyway, I ended up attending Highlands by taking Russian. They had a wonderful guy who managed to escape the USSR and found his way to Texas teaching his native language. I've been interested in Russia ever since. Yeah, just turned 65 recently, too. Old fart here.Canada2017 said:curtpenn said:Stayed home several days my senior year due to random hallway beatings perpetrated by blacks. Was just glad to leave. Went to Baylor where these problems didn't exist. Takeway/lesson? Obviously, my quality of life was better in the bubble.engiBEAR said:It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.bearassnekkid said:I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?engiBEAR said:Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.bearassnekkid said:Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.engiBEAR said:Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.whitetrash said:What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.Jack Bauer said:
Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.
Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"
Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.
And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?
And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"
What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.
There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...
I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.
The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.
I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
In 1972 they started busing black kids into my high school. The black students were (justifiably) furious . They didn't want to get bused clear across town . Fights broke out constantly . Teachers were threatened , principal got beat up. KKK and Black Panthers stuffed their propaganda in our lockers . One brawl in the lunch room was so huge it made Walter Cronkite's CBS national news. Argued for 18 months with a proud, very smart black girl about everything under the sun . At our 10 year reunion we met and I introduced her to my wife. She introduced us to her white husband . I absolutely loved it .
I will apologize for this white person doing this...you could tell me this was Sacha Baren Cohen disguised as a DJ pranking the world and I would believe you.
Your claim is that black people are doing nothing do combat black on black violence, which is an incredible claim. It's total bs and you should, once again, be ashamed.Oldbear83 said:
But with regard to your 'internal issues', every group has those. Police departments, for example, need to decide how they will deal with bad actors in their ranks. I have been friends with LEOs for decades, and have heard stories about wrongdoing by cops from cops, in addition to some personal experience with both really honorable and really disgusting people wearing badges. We can talk all we want about regulating or controlling from the outside, but the truth is that the first and best line of defense against police brutality starts with the officers themselves. I can promise you that no effective reform will come from HPD Chief Acevedo or Mayor Turner at HPD, despite the brutal murder of two innocent Houstonians last year; it has to come from the ranks.
Similarly, each community must address problems in their own numbers. The most serious threat to a black person, statistically, is another black person, but black-on-black violence is given almost no attention by the political and social groups. That means the greatest danger is essentially unaddressed, and has been for decades.
Yes, other demographics have their own problems and failings to address, but for this thread the topic is the threat of violence to blacks, and like it or not the most progress that matters will have to come from within that community.
And let's pretend black on black violence has been "essentially unaddressed" for "decades," does that mean black people give up their Constitutional right to peaceful assembly? To protesting? Take the Bill of Rights away from blacks? Or could it be, that no matter what you think of how blacks address black on black violence, they (or we all) can also be pissed about racial bias in American policing?
This is basically the idiocy of this forum in a nutshell. The radical extremist right wingers can't even admit that racial bias in American policing is a problem, and conversing about it is so downright scary, that they will put you on ignore for wanting a question answered. Right, because I need to tell Canada2017 what real world experience I have?Canada2017 said:No real world experience .Porteroso said:
I'm not into the doxxing scene, but thanks for the offer. I asked you a question, and you're not impressed? What kind of response is that? There's enough of "you can't have that opinion because you're white" or "... black" going around right now, I get to have my opinion.
If your point was really that regardless of race, dads who abandon their children need to apologize, sure. You're right, they all do. It just seems suspect that you'd be making the comment without relation to race, given the current thread and the current social climate.
'Ignore'
I read about safetyism the other day, it's what now trumps the right to free speech for many young people in our world. People value the "right" to feel emotionally and psychologically safe more than the free speech of others. Safe forum journeys, Canadia2017.