Juneteenth to become federal holiday

8,416 Views | 216 Replies | Last: 5 mo ago by Porteroso
bear2be2
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Redbrickbear said:

This is an example of where culture can be down stream of politics.

Only a small minority of the country was in favor of making it a national holiday. Yet it passed overwhelmingly and with almost no opposition. Notably no opposition in the U.S. Senate.

Yet 40% of American adults had never even heard of the holiday. Including almost 20% of blacks.



It's almost as though making an effort to learn about something might influence your thoughts on that subject.
BellCountyBear
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bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
Well gosh, I guess it's because "that cliff" moves dramatically almost daily! So we white folks just like to check in with the experts.
bear2be2
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BellCountyBear said:

bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
Well gosh, I guess it's because "that cliff" moves dramatically almost daily! So we white folks just like to check in the experts.
If you're really worried about it, you were probably too close to begin with.
Osodecentx
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bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
I disagree. A white person skates on thin ice
Redbrickbear
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bear2be2 said:

Redbrickbear said:

This is an example of where culture can be down stream of politics.

Only a small minority of the country was in favor of making it a national holiday. Yet it passed overwhelmingly and with almost no opposition. Notably no opposition in the U.S. Senate.

Yet 40% of American adults had never even heard of the holiday. Including almost 20% of blacks.



It's almost as though making an effort to learn about something might influence your thoughts on that subject.
The point being that the numbers have not really shifted. The vast majority of the country was unaware of Juneteenth's existence and even today remains ambivalent about a minor ethno-centric holiday from Texas. Learning of its existence only brought over committed liberals (20% of the national pop) to its full throated support.

But that did not stop the uni-party embracing it full force.

And of course shows that the far left (20%) of the country is in the drivers seat in terms of cultural hegemony.
mattisbear
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do yall fold yalls towels hotdog first or hamburger first

i have issues going full hotdog right off the bat, unwieldy

i go hamburger, then hot dog in thirds, then half again.
Porteroso
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Redbrickbear said:

[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]

Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you got

Quote:

the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today
Thee University
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BaylorBJM said:

Thee University said:

I think it is great to finally make Juneteenth a Holiday. I hope that maybe a history lesson will be taught and people nationwide will finally understand that it originated in Texas, the South.

I am concerned that looting, rioting, murders and beatings will be escalated every June 19th.

But then white folks deserve to be murdered, looted, beaten, robbed and generally cowering and submissive. Let's make every day Juneteenth.


You've always seemed like the type of poster who still refers to black people as "colored"
Nope.

I preferred using......................"my black African brother".
"Any people with contempt for their heritage have lost faith in themselves and no nation can long survive without pride in its traditions." - Sir Winston Churchill
Thee University
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Osodecentx said:


I disagree. A white person skates on thin ice
BS!

Don't fall for this.

Example: If a black person can use the N word then I can too.

I refuse to operate in this society where some words and descriptions are deemed usable only for a particular race or culture.

You guys need to break free of the guilt and learn how to communicate. You are being bent over a barrel and some of you are enjoying the pummeling you are taking.

If it is in the Urban Dictionary I can use it.
"Any people with contempt for their heritage have lost faith in themselves and no nation can long survive without pride in its traditions." - Sir Winston Churchill
Jack Bauer
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bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
"Cliff" like soap, hiking, knitting.











bear2be2
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Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]

Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you got

Quote:

the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today

Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of the post-Trump right views this, and it's problematic at a fundamental level. When every effort to examine social/racial justice big and small -- or in this case, just celebrate a Black cause that's good for the collective -- is deemed to be liberal, and all things liberal are deemed to be evil, it's hard to make a case that your movement is anything but regressive, if not outright racist.

This thread is really a perfect example. If elevating Juneteenth to a national holiday is a bridge too far, what minority cause could possibly be acceptable to those who think every minority cause is an ideological affront?

I still think most conservatives are reasonable, well-meaning people who share a goal of equality and racial harmony. But they've adopted a toxic ideology through which that can only be achieved on their terms, and anything else is a progressive attack on their traditional way of life.
bear2be2
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Jack Bauer said:

bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
"Cliff" like soap, hiking, knitting.












The problem here is you guys not only give undue credence to one-off nutjobs, you try to make them representative voices for the opposition.

But the truth is none of the things this random twitter account cited as racist are actually considered so by any significant portion of the population. So why are you getting worked up over these stupid ass columns and stories that are written more often than not for the express purpose of working you up? And in some of these cases, such as whitening makeup and the Land O' Lakes Native American/Uncle Ben's black farmer mascot, it's not a bad thing to examine whether those things are still appropriate in 2021.

Don't worry. You're not going to be canceled for golfing or enjoying Lord of the Rings. Just treat people with respect and try to have some empathy for the way others experience our world, and you'll be fine. It's really not that hard.
Redbrickbear
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"As Kwanzaa was a academic, Afro-centric, and Marxist inspired counter to 'White American' Christmas, Juneteenth-national independent day ...is a Marxist counter to Independence Day (Fourth of July). A conflicting and contrary national holiday that is not intended to augment but to eventual replace."
Jack Bauer
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bear2be2 said:

Jack Bauer said:

bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
"Cliff" like soap, hiking, knitting.












The problem here is you guys not only give undue credence to one-off nutjobs, you try to make them representative voices for the opposition.

But the truth is none of the things this random twitter account cited as racist are actually considered so by any significant portion of the population. So why are you getting worked up over these stupid ass columns and stories that are written more often than not for the express purpose of working you up? And in some of these cases, such as whitening makeup and the Land O' Lakes Native American/Uncle Ben's black farmer mascot, it's not a bad thing to examine whether those things are still appropriate in 2021.

Don't worry. You're not going to canceled for golfing or enjoying Lord of the Rings. Just treat people with respect and try to have some empathy for the way others experience our world, and you'll be fine. It's really not that hard.
Over 40 examples from MSM outlets is a "one-off nutjob"?

This Hispanic man lost his job for this insignificant motion he made. Did you tell him that he is getting worked up over something fake?

Porteroso
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Hey you radical fundamentalists, this is about celebrating the end of slavery, not some free for all let's bash libs for unrelated whatever. Some of you come across as wishing slavery was still here so you wouldn't have to deal with these woke libs.
LIB,MR BEARS
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mattisbear said:

do yall fold yalls towels hotdog first or hamburger first

i have issues going full hotdog right off the bat, unwieldy

i go hamburger, then hot dog in thirds, then half again.
your either using larger size towels to allow that many folds or, cheap crap so thin and will take that number folds.

Antebellum rules state 1/3 hotdog, 1/3 hotdog
1/3 length, 1/3 length.

Anything else reeks of carpetbaggers.
GShack
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For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.
BellCountyBear
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bear2be2 said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]

Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you got

Quote:

the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today

Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of the post-Trump right views this, and it's problematic at a fundamental level. When every effort to examine social/racial justice big and small -- or in this case, just celebrate a Black cause that's good for the collective -- is deemed to be liberal, and all things liberal are deemed to be evil, it's hard to make a case that your movement is anything but regressive, if not outright racist.

This thread is really a perfect example. If elevating Juneteenth to a national holiday is a bridge too far, what minority cause could possibly be acceptable to those who think every minority cause is an ideological affront?

I still think most conservatives are reasonable, well-meaning people who share a goal of equality and racial harmony. But they've adopted a toxic ideology through which that can only be achieved on their terms, and anything else is a progressive attack on their traditional way of life.
Have you ever watched a pendulum in action? Guess not.
LIB,MR BEARS
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bear2be2 said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]

Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you got

Quote:

the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today

Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of the post-Trump right views this, and it's problematic at a fundamental level. When every effort to examine social/racial justice big and small -- or in this case, just celebrate a Black cause that's good for the collective -- is deemed to be liberal, and all things liberal are deemed to be evil, it's hard to make a case that your movement is anything but regressive, if not outright racist.

This thread is really a perfect example. If elevating Juneteenth to a national holiday is a bridge too far, what minority cause could possibly be acceptable to those who think every minority cause is an ideological affront?

I still think most conservatives are reasonable, well-meaning people who share a goal of equality and racial harmony. But they've adopted a toxic ideology through which that can only be achieved on their terms, and anything else is a progressive attack on their traditional way of life.
I am white conservative and completely agree with this post.

Now an intelligent person who thinks open honest discussions are beneficial would not just look at the other side, as you already have but, look at their own side with a bit of introspection.

So, after you've done that, let us know what you think. Is your side/yourself squeaky clean? Where have you/y'all pushed too far or in the wrong direction if you detect any problem at all. If not, then be patient with all of us in the unwashed masses as we play catch-up.
LIB,MR BEARS
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GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.
As part of the other 87%, what do you think course correction will look like?
GShack
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Actual equality. Not propped up, artificial BS. All these "programs and initiatives" are actually racist but nobody speaks out for fear of cancellation.

Blacks have more advantages than anyone but still *****. Own it and earn it. There are so many successful blacks. I work with several. It isn't about color so much as culture. Stop the excuses.
Thee University
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Porteroso said:

Hey you radical fundamentalists, this is about celebrating the end of slavery, not some free for all let's bash libs for unrelated whatever. Some of you come across as wishing slavery was still here so you wouldn't have to deal with these woke libs.
BS.

None of this would have taken place without Chauvin. None of it.

The race card playing race baiters swooped in and coupled with 40 years of Marxist teachers in public schools they took advantage of a guilt ridden society that was easily swayed. It won't stop.

By the way, for the first time in years George Floyd has gone drug free and stayed out of the police blotter for the past 12 months.
"Any people with contempt for their heritage have lost faith in themselves and no nation can long survive without pride in its traditions." - Sir Winston Churchill
quash
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Rawhide said:

So, June 19th, 1865 was on the third Monday that year. Any chance that they could just make Juneteenth every 3rd Monday of June? That way, all those hard working white Americans that will get the day off for it.... it at least could be a 3 day weekend.

Most federal holidays that fall on the weekend already get a weekday for it under the 1968 Monday Holiday Act.

“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
robby44
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From June 19, 1865 all the way to April 5, 2021 and Baylor winning the NCAA Men's National Championship!
Won't He Do It!
quash
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Thee University said:

Porteroso said:

Hey you radical fundamentalists, this is about celebrating the end of slavery, not some free for all let's bash libs for unrelated whatever. Some of you come across as wishing slavery was still here so you wouldn't have to deal with these woke libs.
BS.

None of this would have taken place without Chauvin. None of it.

The race card playing race baiters swooped in and coupled with 40 years of Marxist teachers in public schools they took advantage of a guilt ridden society that was easily swayed. It won't stop.

By the way, for the first time in years George Floyd has gone drug free and stayed out of the police blotter for the past 12 months.

BS. The march of racial progress in this country got us here, not any one event. And that march will proceed despite race-baiters like you.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Redbrickbear
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Porteroso said:

Hey you radical fundamentalists, this is about celebrating the end of slavery, not some free for all let's bash libs for unrelated whatever. Some of you come across as wishing slavery was still here so you wouldn't have to deal with these woke libs.


I can assure you that everyone on this board believes what your hero Abraham Lincoln believed. That slavery was a horrible institution and that America would have 1000% better off if not a single sub-Saharan African slave had every been brought to these shores.
Bears2Canes
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GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.


White Americans enslaved an entire race of humans for centuries and our government denied them basic constitutional rights well into the 20th century and you're complaining about two days out of 365. If anyone is playing a "victim card," it's your own pathetic, racist self.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Bears2Canes said:

GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.


White Americans enslaved an entire race of humans for centuries and our government denied them basic constitutional rights well into the 20th century and you're complaining about two days out of 365. If anyone is playing a "victim card," it's your own pathetic, racist self.
It wasn't an "entire race". It was a number of people from primarily one race. Not even Hitler killed an entire race. He made a run at it but was unsuccessful. Enslaving an entire race would have had every black, being on US soil.

Think... Tap the brakes on emotions and then... type it in. Words mean things and it is always best to use the proper word in the proper context. Otherwise, you'll get roled , or is it rolled.
Bears2Canes
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bears2Canes said:

GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.


White Americans enslaved an entire race of humans for centuries and our government denied them basic constitutional rights well into the 20th century and you're complaining about two days out of 365. If anyone is playing a "victim card," it's your own pathetic, racist self.
It wasn't an "entire race". It was a number of people from primarily one race. Not even Hitler killed an entire race. He made a run at it but was unsuccessful. Enslaving an entire race would have had every black, being on US soil.

Think... Tap the brakes on emotions and then... type it in. Words mean things and it is always best to use the proper word in the proper context. Otherwise, you'll get roled , or is it rolled.


*sigh* you completely missed the point and avoided the issue by focusing on minor word choice. I don't expect much better from most posters on the politics board.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

Hey you radical fundamentalists, this is about celebrating the end of slavery, not some free for all let's bash libs for unrelated whatever. Some of you come across as wishing slavery was still here so you wouldn't have to deal with these woke libs.


I can assure you that everyone on this board believes what your hero Abraham Lincoln believed. That slavery was a horrible institution and that America would have 1000% better off if not a single sub-Saharan African slave had every been brought to these shores.
That last sentence reads like a double entendre. I hope it wasn't intended as that.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Bears2Canes said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Bears2Canes said:

GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.


White Americans enslaved an entire race of humans for centuries and our government denied them basic constitutional rights well into the 20th century and you're complaining about two days out of 365. If anyone is playing a "victim card," it's your own pathetic, racist self.
It wasn't an "entire race". It was a number of people from primarily one race. Not even Hitler killed an entire race. He made a run at it but was unsuccessful. Enslaving an entire race would have had every black, being on US soil.

Think... Tap the brakes on emotions and then... type it in. Words mean things and it is always best to use the proper word in the proper context. Otherwise, you'll get roled , or is it rolled.


*sigh* you completely missed the point and avoided the issue by focusing on minor word choice. I don't expect much better from most posters on the politics board.
I didn't miss the point. I also saw the extreme rhetoric "entire race" which begs for an extreme retort. When that happens you get a bunch of lame, petty arguments that put an end to any intelligent discussion.
Thee University
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quash said:


BS. The march of racial progress in this country got us here, not any one event. And that march will proceed despite race-baiters like you.

Our country had made trillion $$$$ strides up until the past year. Now all of that progress has been pissed away and a wedge has been driven between races.

All of this supposed progress will be forgotten within a few years because nobody is going to follow through with the promises made. We've seen this before and we will see it again and again and again. There is not enough motivated & committed folks willing to put out the effort to capitalize on yet another race card played.

Instead we will have to wait for yet another tragedy for the hustlers to descend into town and play their sad, tired and pitiful card.

Your march is nothing more than a



"Any people with contempt for their heritage have lost faith in themselves and no nation can long survive without pride in its traditions." - Sir Winston Churchill
Redbrickbear
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Bears2Canes said:

GShack said:

For some reason this country is falling all over itself for the 13%. Now they have 2 "holidays". Nobody complains and plays the victim card as much as the 13%.

I'm looking forward to course correction.


White Americans enslaved an entire race of humans for centuries and our government denied them basic constitutional rights well into the 20th century and you're complaining about two days out of 365. If anyone is playing a "victim card," it's your own pathetic, racist self.
If by White Americans enslaving a race..you mean 10% or less of the Southern White population and 1% or less of the Northern White populace...thus being about 2% of the entire US White population. Plus not forgetting American-Indian tribes that held Black slaves and Mixed race people who held Black slaves....then sure you are correct.

Of course this same argument could be made about Brazil, Cuba, Venezuela, Colombia, or many other Latin American and Caribbean nations.

And of course those slaves were sold to brown skinned Spaniards/Portuguese by West African black tribes/nations who slaved for a living.

What's your point? Slavery was abolished almost 200 years ago in the United States. No one alive today owned a slave or was a slave.

Beside reparations payments what else would you want to see done?

At this point we are literally tearing down the statues of our ancestors, statesmen, and settlers...yet it is still not enough.

Modern leftist moral attitude toward race (influenced by Marxism) seems to be a new faith with massive amounts of guilt and zero grace/redemption/forgiveness.
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

BellCountyBear said:


Is this still ok?
You looking for a Halloween costume?

Why are some of you so concerned with locating the edge of what is/isn't racist? It's really not that hard to keep a safe distance from that cliff if you make any effort at all.
Been called a racist because I simply don't care what color someone is with respect to my treatment of them. Add to that white silence = violence....

You're a racist if you think black people can succeed without help from the great white hand of hope
You're a racist if you don't what color someone happens to be
You're a racist if you don't stick your fist in the air and scream black lives matter
You're a racist because you support a specific person for president
You're a racist if you don't denounce ancestors that you didn't know that never owned a slave
You're a racist if you accept you white privilege

I could go on and on

it's really not as easy to keep a safe distance from it if liberals can't take off their racist colored glasses
bear2be2
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]

Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you got

Quote:

the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today

Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of the post-Trump right views this, and it's problematic at a fundamental level. When every effort to examine social/racial justice big and small -- or in this case, just celebrate a Black cause that's good for the collective -- is deemed to be liberal, and all things liberal are deemed to be evil, it's hard to make a case that your movement is anything but regressive, if not outright racist.

This thread is really a perfect example. If elevating Juneteenth to a national holiday is a bridge too far, what minority cause could possibly be acceptable to those who think every minority cause is an ideological affront?

I still think most conservatives are reasonable, well-meaning people who share a goal of equality and racial harmony. But they've adopted a toxic ideology through which that can only be achieved on their terms, and anything else is a progressive attack on their traditional way of life.
I am white conservative and completely agree with this post.

Now an intelligent person who thinks open honest discussions are beneficial would not just look at the other side, as you already have but, look at their own side with a bit of introspection.

So, after you've done that, let us know what you think. Is your side/yourself squeaky clean? Where have you/y'all pushed too far or in the wrong direction if you detect any problem at all. If not, then be patient with all of us in the unwashed masses as we play catch-up.
These types of gotcha posts don't work on me because I don't have a side. I'm against radicals of all stripes and partisan hackery in all its forms.

I'm no more a fan of the far left than I am the far right. And it's largely for the same reason -- both are too rigid in their dogma to be contributing members to a functioning, harmonious society. And I'd argue neither even particularly wants a functioning, harmonious society. They'd rather bend their political adversaries to their will and create a society around their ideals, which means there's no satisfactory end game for either group as long as the other exists. It's a constant fight that can't be won.

So I would say the same thing to the more extreme adherents of critical race theory that I would to Trump Republicans. If true equality, justice, racial harmony and unification aren't your goals, I have no use for your ideology. It's unlikely we'll ever actually achieve those things in this country with an ideological divide that's only growing wider, but they have to be our shared goal. There has to be a finish line and realistic/identifiable checkpoints by which we can measure and celebrate progress.

I don't typically find that in any philosophy that views all relationships through an oppressor/oppressed lens. But at the same time, I don't have trouble seeing the impact past oppressor/oppressed relationships have on our current society. And I understand that we need to acknowledge and reckon with that history before we can move forward in a meaningful, productive way.
 
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