Gameday Thread: #12 Baylor (10-2) at Iowa State (9-2)

The inability of Cryer to stay on the floor hurts, but given the effort of the rest of the team today, especially on the defensive end, it would've prolly only made the loss a bit closer.

its still better than the offense running through anyone else, which is what will happen if George sits. if george wasn't shooting those shots, who would you prefer? thamba? Bridges? Lohner? Love? Bonner? Ojanwuna?

thats the whole roster right there and its hard for me to see any of them doing any better.

Cyclone defense is playing the way we should be.

IowaBear said:

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People were also saying these guards are better than the title team…

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I watched Davion play against the Nuggets a few days ago. He made Bones Hyland look like a JV guard the last 8 minutes of the game. He played the final 8 minutes except for one off possession where Huerta subbed in.

He was special.

I think it is also apparent how much losing Tang hurt us, he brought an intensity to the team that is clearly missing.

We are just not a very good team. Without Cryer… really bad.

TXBEAR_bf said:

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I think it is also apparent how much losing Tang hurt us, he brought an intensity to the team that is clearly missing.

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Not just Tang though. We don't have any Vitals, Mitchells, or even a JTT who provides that spark or vocal leadership.

I miss him! Dude was so damm fun to watch!

I would take any of those guys, it would require this team to play offense instead of relying on a volume shooter who refuses to play as part of the team.

Someone did say that. They were very wrong!

Who on the basketball staff will be Ron Roberts?

TXBEAR_bf said:

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I think it is also apparent how much losing Tang hurt us, he brought an intensity to the team that is clearly missing.

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While I miss tang this is just not fair to the current staff. The roster construction this year is not good. We replaced hard nosed players with soft players. We've got very few guys who can play physically on this team. Bridge's is a bust, the development of loveday is a massive bust, George is a tough nosed guy, and Flagler is just not a leader.

We've missed a leader since the natty and it didn't matter what coaches were here, no one emerged last season to the detriment of a team talented enough to win it all. This team isn't close to last years when it comes to talent. That's nothing to do with coaching on the court.

Drew needs to recruit some guys who will play physical especially though the portal next season. Softies like bridges and George are not going to cut it

Was it Tang though also through recruiting?

Poor performance, if defense doesn't improve it'll be a long season.

IvanBear said:

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I would take any of those guys, it would require this team to play offense instead of relying on a volume shooter who refuses to play as part of the team.

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Not a fair statement towards Keyonte. Keyonte is not selfish and he is not a volume shooter. He is more than willing to share the ball, but doesn't have a lot of skilled offensive players around him to take off the pressure. Bonner, Thamba, and Bridges are terrible shooters and can't create their own shot. It is really Keyonte and Flagler playing 2 on 5 in that starting unit. When things bog down Keyonte and Flagler are then forced to take low percentage shots. Once Cryer returns I think our spacing will improve.

IvanBear said:

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TXBEAR_bf said:

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I think it is also apparent how much losing Tang hurt us, he brought an intensity to the team that is clearly missing.

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While I miss tang this is just not fair to the current staff. The roster construction this year is not good. We replaced hard nosed players with soft players. We've got very few guys who can play physically on this team. Bridge's is a bust, the development of loveday is a massive bust, George is a tough nosed guy, and Flagler is just not a leader.

We've missed a leader since the natty and it didn't matter what coaches were here, no one emerged last season to the detriment of a team talented enough to win it all. This team isn't close to last years when it comes to talent. That's nothing to do with coaching on the court.

Drew needs to recruit some guys who will play physical especially though the portal next season. Softies like bridges and George are not going to cut it

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So is George a softie or a tough-nosed guy?

TheBearableVariabl3 said:

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its still better than the offense running through anyone else, which is what will happen if George sits. if george wasn't shooting those shots, who would you prefer? thamba? Bridges? Lohner? Love? Bonner? Ojanwuna?

thats the whole roster right there and its hard for me to see any of them doing any better.

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Anyone can go for 0 for 8 in a half and commit five turnovers in 30-ish minutes.

High usage is not an asset or virtue by itself. He needs to start producing better in the role we've placed him in or this team is going to be a massive disappointment.

IowaBear said:

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People were also saying these guards are better than the title team…

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I don't remember anyone saying they were better. The discussion was about talent.

That's the problem with this team. We have loads of talent at the guard position that's largely untapped for one reason or another and then nothing around them.

Keyonte George isn't ready to be the guy. LJ Cryer can't stay on the floor due to injury. And Langston Love is still adjusting to the speed of the game after returning from a major knee injury.

Flagler is playing at an elite level. And Bonner is a solid role/hustle player. But the other guys either aren't playing at the level we need them to or aren't fully healthy. And then, of course, there's the much larger problem of our frontcourt, which gives us next to nothing most games.

The issue with this team is we'll likely never see it at its best. I don't think Keyonte George will be much more than he's been for the one year we have him, which is a supremely talented but frustrating volume scorer. And then poor Cryer just can't stay on the court.

It is what it is at this point. There's not much reason to continue to get angry over what is clearly a flawed team. Adjust your expectations and move on. The goal at this point is an NCAA tournament berth. Anything more than that is gravy. As this team is currently constructed, I see almost no way it competes at the top of the Big 12 or makes it to the second weekend of the tournament.

IvanBear said:

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TXBEAR_bf said:

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I think it is also apparent how much losing Tang hurt us, he brought an intensity to the team that is clearly missing.

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While I miss tang this is just not fair to the current staff. The roster construction this year is not good. We replaced hard nosed players with soft players. We've got very few guys who can play physically on this team. Bridge's is a bust, the development of loveday is a massive bust, George is a tough nosed guy, and Flagler is just not a leader.

We've missed a leader since the natty and it didn't matter what coaches were here, no one emerged last season to the detriment of a team talented enough to win it all. This team isn't close to last years when it comes to talent. That's nothing to do with coaching on the court.

Drew needs to recruit some guys who will play physical especially though the portal next season. Softies like bridges and George are not going to cut it

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Why do people continue to take shots at Flagler, who is having one of the most efficient seasons in Baylor basketball history? This mess isn't on him. He's shown up every game (except for those he missed due to illness) and played at an elite level. It's his teammates who haven't held up their end of the bargain.

Flagler played at a great level even when he was sick. I think the announcers said he wasn't fully recovered when we played Gonzaga. Or was it Washington State?

bear2be2 said:

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TheBearableVariabl3 said:

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its still better than the offense running through anyone else, which is what will happen if George sits. if george wasn't shooting those shots, who would you prefer? thamba? Bridges? Lohner? Love? Bonner? Ojanwuna?

thats the whole roster right there and its hard for me to see any of them doing any better.

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Anyone can go for 0 for 8 in a half and commit five turnovers in 30-ish minutes.

High usage is not an asset or virtue by itself. He needs to start producing better in the role we've placed him in or this team is going to be a massive disappointment.

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Any one would struggle when asked to play 1 or 2 vs. 5 which is the position Keyonte has been placed in.

Think back to our national championship team, we had 3 starting guards on the floor together at all times who could score or distribute. We had Flagler and Maher off the bench who could come in and keep the pressure on defenses. We came in waves and defenses couldn't key in on one of them; we could spread the floor and exploit mismatches.

Without Cryer healthy, we are asking Keyonte and Flagler to do the heavy lifting all by themselves. We have no other players on our roster who can consistently create their own offense to keep defenses honest. We are left with Keyonte and Flagler holding the ball and trying to create something on their own to beat the shot clock. Similar to the position Akinjo was placed in last season until we made the coaching adjustment to put the ball in Sochan's hands as a point-forward to alleviate some of the defensive pressure on Akinjo.

What I hear from your posts is a lot of blame being placed at the feet Keyonte which isn't fair to the player. I hear you label him over and over again as a volume scorer which he is not. Surrounded by the right talent, he is a versatile combo guard who is at his best when involving others. He is having the best 2 or 3 defenders thrown at him the whole game, with no one else capable of keeping defenses honest and take the pressure off. A healthy Cryer would go a long way to helping our offense run with more efficiency, e.g. fewer turnovers and fewer bad shots to beat the shot clock.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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TheBearableVariabl3 said:

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its still better than the offense running through anyone else, which is what will happen if George sits. if george wasn't shooting those shots, who would you prefer? thamba? Bridges? Lohner? Love? Bonner? Ojanwuna?

thats the whole roster right there and its hard for me to see any of them doing any better.

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Anyone can go for 0 for 8 in a half and commit five turnovers in 30-ish minutes.

High usage is not an asset or virtue by itself. He needs to start producing better in the role we've placed him in or this team is going to be a massive disappointment.

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Any one would struggle when asked to play 1 or 2 vs. 5 which is the position Keyonte has been placed in.

Think back to our national championship team, we had 3 starting guards on the floor together at all times who could score or distribute. We had Flagler and Maher off the bench who could come in and keep the pressure on defenses. We came in waves and defenses couldn't key in on one of them; we could spread the floor and exploit mismatches.

Without Cryer healthy, we are asking Keyonte and Flagler to do the heavy lifting all by themselves. We have no other players on our roster who can consistently create their own offense to keep defenses honest. We are left with Keyonte and Flagler holding the ball and trying to create something on their own to beat the shot clock. Similar to the position Akinjo was placed in last season until we made the coaching adjustment to put the ball in Sochan's hands as a point-forward to alleviate some of the defensive pressure on Akinjo.

What I hear from your posts is a lot of blame being placed at the feet Keyonte which isn't fair to the player. I hear you label him over and over again as a volume scorer which he is not. Surrounded by the right talent, he is a versatile combo guard who is at his best when involving others. He is having the best 2 or 3 defenders thrown at him the whole game, with no one else capable of keeping defenses honest and take the pressure off. A healthy Cryer would go a long way to helping our offense run with more efficiency, e.g. fewer turnovers and fewer bad shots to beat the shot clock.

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All of those same things were true of Cade Cunningham, and he didn't shoot 38 percent from the field. Instead, he elevated a team that would have been pretty terrible without him. In the absence of any semblance of support from the wing position, any scoring from the post and a reliable third scoring guard (we need Cryer back badly), we need Keyonte to be that type of player, and he's just not. He was billed as that type of player, and people talk about him here like he's that type of player, but he's not.

We can talk all we want about expectations and what's fair. But when dealing with one-and-dones, I only care about the now because there is no future. I have no doubt that Keyonte George will one day be a great player. But I really only care about what he can do for this year's Baylor team. And I've been frustrated as often as impressed so far. Is that fair? Probably not. But that comes with the territory when you're a five-star recruit.

This team is hard to watch right now, and I readily admit that's not all -- or even primarily -- Keyonte George's fault. Our wing players' inability to contribute in any major way is a much larger problem. But he is contributing factor to the frustration I have watching this team. Watching him take step back 3s he makes at a very low rate frustrates me. Watching him dribble into traffic and turn the ball over routinely frustrates me. Watching him play turnstile defense frustrates me.

Adam Flagler is under no less pressure and gets no less defensive attention and he's having the best shooting year of his career. That's because he still primarily makes good decisions with the basketball and takes good, high-percentage shots. It can be done. I understand that Flag's a fourth-year player and his experience matters, but that makes me no less frustrated when our most talented player -- and a guy that was hyped beyond belief -- does the types of things I mention above with impunity.

I don't dislike Keyonte. He seems like a good kid. And he's got an extraordinary skill set. But if he's not ready to handle the role we have him in currently, we need to modify his role. Getting Cryer back and contributing would be a huge help. So would getting Bridges going (though I have little hope of that at this point). But whether those things happen or not, we need Keyonte George to play better than he has the last 10 games. If he doesn't, we're in for a long, disappointing season.

Since you are quoting stats and comparing Key to Cade....Key is shooting 38% with 3.3 turnovers. At OSU Cade shot 41% with 3.4 turnovers. Neither a model of efficiency. But the box score only tells part of the story. The primary reason for Key's inefficiency is he's forced to take a lot of high level of difficulty shots due to lack of scoring talent around him. I sound like a broken record, but we really need Cryer back in the lineup to give us that third offensive option. If Bridges can shake his shooting slump that would be an added bonus.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Since you are quoting stats and comparing Key to Cade....Key is shooting 38% with 3.3 turnovers. At OSU Cade shot 41% with 3.4 turnovers. Neither a model of efficiency. But the box score only tells part of the story. The primary reason for Key's inefficiency is he's forced to take a lot of high level of difficulty shots due to lack of scoring talent around him. I sound like a broken record, but we really need Cryer back in the lineup to give us that third offensive option. If Bridges can shake his shooting slump that would be an added bonus.

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Cunningham shot 43.8 percent from the field and 40 percent from 3 in his one season at Oklahoma State. He turned the ball over a lot because he was playing out of position, but his shooting percentages were substantially better than Keyonte's current numbers -- as was his player efficiency rating, which was a full four points higher (21.6 to 17.5).

You are correct, he did shoot 43.8% compared to keyonte 38%. Much bigger frame, could absorb more contact

Crawfoso1973 said:

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You are correct, he did shoot 43.8% compared to keyonte 38%. Much bigger frame, could absorb more contact

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Cade Cunningham was just a better player, and that's OK. But with the failures at other positions and injuries to Cryer, we needed our five-star freshman to be that type of player, and he's just not.

Apples and oanges when comparing him to Cade. Keyonte will play PG at the next level. He has tremendous court vision with a willingness and ability to pass the ball. We are not seeing his array of skills with limited talent around him.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Apples and oanges when comparing him to Cade. Keyonte will play PG at the next level. He has tremendous court vision with a willingness and ability to pass the ball. We are not seeing his array of skills with limited talent around him.

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I'm not comparing positions or games. I'm comparing impact and efficiency. Cade Cunningham hit the college ranks better equipped to change games.

Keyonte George has an elite set of skills. He's not an elite college player yet ... and likely won't be for the duration of his short Baylor career. Unfortunately, we needed him to be an elite player.

Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

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The bolded simply is not true. Look at stars on bad teams on any level - college and pro - and you will see inefficiency (high turnovers, low fg%).

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

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The bolded simply is not true. Look at stars on bad teams on any level - college and pro - and you will see inefficiency (high turnovers, low fg%).

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Those guys aren't stars. They're just high-usage players. Volume scorers.

Baylor currently has one star/elite player, and his name is Adam Flagler.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

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The bolded simply is not true. Look at stars on bad teams on any level - college and pro - and you will see inefficiency (high turnovers, low fg%).

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Those guys aren't stars. They're just high-usage players. Volume scorers.

Baylor currently has one star/elite player, and his name is Adam Flagler.

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Flagler is having a great season, and I love what he has done for Baylor, but he is not a star and is not an elite player. He will have a great overseas career if he chooses, but will not sniff the NBA.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

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The bolded simply is not true. Look at stars on bad teams on any level - college and pro - and you will see inefficiency (high turnovers, low fg%).

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Those guys aren't stars. They're just high-usage players. Volume scorers.

Baylor currently has one star/elite player, and his name is Adam Flagler.

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Flagler is having a great season, and I love what he has done for Baylor, but he is not a star and is not an elite player. He will have a great overseas career if he chooses, but will not sniff the NBA.

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I don't give a **** about the NBA (until the playoffs, and then I'll watch the Mavericks). I'm a Baylor fan who cares about college basketball.

Adam Flagler is an elite college basketball player. Keyonte George is not.

This is why I don't care much for one-and-dones. Most are massive disappointments. NBA potential means less than nothing to me. I care about what you can do while on Baylor's campus.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Keyonte is elite and is already the focus of opposing defenses. His inefficiency is the result of so little offensive talent around him, especially with Cryer out. Anyone expecting perfection in the current situation is just setting themselves up for frustration and disappointment. At the end of the day basketball is a team game.

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Elite college players aren't inefficient. That's the point. If you're inefficient, regardless of the reason, you're not an elite player.

All elite players are the focus of opposing defenses. They don't shoot 38 percent from the field and have more turnovers than assists.

And expecting more than the above is not expecting perfection. It's expecting a supposed star player to play like a star. If he's not capable of doing that, he shouldn't be leaned on so heavily.

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The bolded simply is not true. Look at stars on bad teams on any level - college and pro - and you will see inefficiency (high turnovers, low fg%).

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Those guys aren't stars. They're just high-usage players. Volume scorers.

Baylor currently has one star/elite player, and his name is Adam Flagler.

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Flagler is having a great season, and I love what he has done for Baylor, but he is not a star and is not an elite player. He will have a great overseas career if he chooses, but will not sniff the NBA.

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I don't give a **** about the NBA (until the playoffs, and then I'll watch the Mavericks). I'm a Baylor fan who cares about college basketball.

Adam Flagler is an elite college basketball player. Keyonte George is not.

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Well, you said Flagler is elite. NBA is a measure of elite. And I don't give a **** if you give a **** whether or not about the NBA.