Gameday Thread: #11 Baylor (22-8; 11-6) at Texas Tech (21-9; 10-7)

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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It's possible but targeting lower level recruits that will stick around when you can get better players is largely unprecedented. Same debate here for months now.

I'm not staunchly against it like some here. Open to the idea just easier said then done. If they don't make a substantial run in the tournament this year then maybe it's time to start considering the question.

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There seems to be perception that we're stuck between recruiting one-and-done five stars or three-star slugs who won't be ready to contribute for three years. That's a false choice. There are guys all over college basketball who are ready to be impact players as freshmen and sophomores that don't have the specific measurables or skill sets that the NBA is looking for. We recruited dozens of them to our own program -- to great success -- before the national title season.

To me it's not about passing on raw talent. It's about recruiting to and for the college game. We've seen a pattern almost every year for the last 10-15 among the teams winning national titles, and they're not built like we've been the last three years.

I don't want us to recruit poor talent. I want us to recruit guys built to develop and win in college. We did it for more than a decade before we got access to one-and-done talent. There's nothing stopping us from doing it again.

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We've got three coming in next year in Rob Wright, Jason Asemota, and Noah Boyed.

Chances are good one of them will surprise to the upside and we'll have the same, tired argument again and again about how we rely too heavily on freshmen, and we'll have posters spending a huge chunk of game threads picking apart VJ Edgecombe's game. I'm trembling with anticipation already!

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If Edgecombe, like George and Walter, leads us in field goal attempts while shooting 38 percent from the field and 33 percent from 3 and can't stay in front of his man defensively, he'll deserve to have his game critiqued. And if we don't do anything in March, our recruiting strategy and continued reliance on freshmen starters should be examined/questioned.

This idea that players or coaches are somehow above fair criticism because our formerly awful program is now good is silly. Everyone gets judged on their performance/results. That's the way the world works. And our potential is much, much higher than first-weekend exits in March.

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It is called "March Madness" for a reason. There's always a high degree of variance in the tournament. If we stumble and bow out again in the 2nd round, blaming the 2nd round loss on having Missi and Walter as freshman starters is what strikes me is silly. Over a larger sample size of an entire season, those 2 guys have been instrumental in putting us in a position to be a 2 or 3 seed to begin with. As were Keyonte last season and Sochan the season before.

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Upsets happen in March. No one suggested otherwise. But when they become a trend, you have to ask yourself why.

And the best way to add to the natural volatility of the tournament is to rely heavily on inconsistent producers in win-or-go-home situations, and no one in the college game is more inconsistent than freshmen.

That's my issue with our recruiting strategy. It's not the players themselves. It's the concept of relying as heavily as we have the last three years on physically and competitively immature players.

Experience matters in college basketball. It is, IMO, a much better predictor of success in March than raw talent.

That is true, experience helps in the tournament. But I go back to the fact we do not *rely* on these freshmen per se. Our roster composition has been balanced with freshman, transfers, and upperclassmen. Unfortunately a couple of those transfers who we really needed to help us the past couple of seasons have been busts which has really hurt us. One of them is a senior barely getting 5 minutes a game, and the other quit the team. Are Walter and Missi perfect, fully mature players? No, but they have been productive, starting-caliber players for a team about to land a 3 seed. I respect your opinion and you can certainly voice your opinion, but I see no reason to complain about their contributions.

This nonsense about freshman. Who do we want to start at Center besides Missi? No one comes to my mind on or off our team.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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That is true, experience helps in the tournament. But I go back to the fact we do not *rely* on these freshmen per se. Our roster composition has been balanced with freshman, transfers, and upperclassmen. Unfortunately a couple of those transfers who we really needed to help us the past couple of seasons have been busts which has really hurt us. One of them is a senior barely getting 5 minutes a game, and the other quit the team. Are Walter and Missi perfect, fully mature players? No, but they have been productive, starting-caliber players for a team about to land a 3 seed. I respect your opinion and you can certainly voice your opinion, but I see no reason to complain about their contributions.

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Walter is leading our team in field goal attempts ... just as Keyonte George did last season. And doing so while shooting dreadful percentages in Big 12 play. To suggest we're not relying on these one-and-done players -- and at times, to our detriment -- is nonsense.

If you want to see what not relying on talented freshmen actually looks like, look at our 2012 team or every national title winner since Duke's 2015 squad. Quincy Miller was third in field goal attempts in a remarkably balanced five-player attack, and none of the national title winners since Duke have had a freshman in their top three in field goal attempts.

That is how freshmen should be used if a championship is your goal.

This Baylor team is good. Just like last year's team was. But contrary to what the truly delusional here will/would try to tell you, neither have/had a championship ceiling. We're limiting ourselves building our rosters the way we have the last three years. We're building consistently flawed rosters and leaving giant holes to fill every single year.

We won our title with a "get old, stay old" model. We've largely abandoned that paradigm since. We've had exactly three developmental players in three years -- Langston Love, Josh Ojianwuna and Miro Little. That's it. Love and EJ, who had a phenomenal career derailed by a really unfortunate injury, are the only players in our program who have been in it for more than two years.

It's hard to build consistency and continuity when you're not even trying to achieve it.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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This nonsense about freshman. Who do we want to start at Center besides Missi? No one comes to my mind on or off our team.

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If you truly believe Yves Missi, who I love BTW, is the best college center in the country, you're more delusional than I thought. Being the best draft prospect and the best college player are not the same thing. And frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about the former.

Do you still not acknowledge that the transfer portal has altered the ability to "get old / stay old" the way we did when building our Natty roster?

bear2be2, you're telling me that you wouldn't take UK's Reed Sheppard on this current Baylor team, just because he's a freshman? That dude is a straight up dog, and he would vault this team straight into National Championship aspirations.

Disliking the roster construction is fine, but we've repeatedly demonstrated that the fault lies in areas other than recruiting (or, at the least, is not isolated to recruiting), yet you continue to tilt at this windmill. It's honestly kind of tiresome to read.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Do you still not acknowledge that the transfer portal has altered the ability to "get old / stay old" the way we did when building our Natty roster?

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I have frequently acknowledged that it has added to the challenge. The rest of our conference -- and a number of other teams nationwide -- are proof that it's not the impossible mountain you insist it is to climb.

We are building our rosters the way we do by choice, not necessity. Baylor under Drew hasn't had any trouble whatsoever keeping the players it wants in its program -- before or after the portal.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2, you're telling me that you wouldn't take UK's Reed Sheppard on this current Baylor team, just because he's a freshman? That dude is a straight up dog, and he would vault this team straight into National Championship aspirations.

Disliking the roster construction is fine, but we've repeatedly demonstrated that the fault lies in areas other than recruiting (or, at the least, is not isolated to recruiting), yet you continue to tilt at this windmill. It's honestly kind of tiresome to read.

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Then don't read it. You know what I find tiresome? The same excuses and hype year after year after year. We have a good team this year. It's not a great one. And a big reason for that is that Ja'Kobe Walter hasn't been the player he was billed as on either end of the floor. It was the same exact story the year prior with Keyonte George.

As for Reed Sheppard, I don't think he will help Kentucky win a national title. There are a lot of good players who are freshmen. We have two. I don't want my team relying on any of them for NCAA tournament success.

Experience wins in March.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2, you're telling me that you wouldn't take UK's Reed Sheppard on this current Baylor team, just because he's a freshman? That dude is a straight up dog, and he would vault this team straight into National Championship aspirations.

Disliking the roster construction is fine, but we've repeatedly demonstrated that the fault lies in areas other than recruiting (or, at the least, is not isolated to recruiting), yet you continue to tilt at this windmill. It's honestly kind of tiresome to read.

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Then don't read it. You know what I find tiresome? The same excuses and hype year after year after year. We have a good team this year. It's not a great one. And a big reason for that is that Ja'Kobe Walter hasn't been the player he was billed as on either end of the floor. It was the same exact story the year prior with Keyonte George.

As for Reed Sheppard, I don't think he will help Kentucky win a national title. There are a lot of good players who are freshmen. We have two. I don't want my team relying on any of them for NCAA tournament success.

Experience wins in March.

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What were you expecting from Walter, prime Michael Jordan? What was he billed to be that fails to meet your lofty expectations? He was just named Big 12 freshman of the year. He starts for a 3 seed and contributes in a variety of ways to our success. If you are demanding perfection from a freshman, the problem therein lies with your unrealistic expectations.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2, you're telling me that you wouldn't take UK's Reed Sheppard on this current Baylor team, just because he's a freshman? That dude is a straight up dog, and he would vault this team straight into National Championship aspirations.

Disliking the roster construction is fine, but we've repeatedly demonstrated that the fault lies in areas other than recruiting (or, at the least, is not isolated to recruiting), yet you continue to tilt at this windmill. It's honestly kind of tiresome to read.

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Then don't read it. You know what I find tiresome? The same excuses and hype year after year after year. We have a good team this year. It's not a great one. And a big reason for that is that Ja'Kobe Walter hasn't been the player he was billed as on either end of the floor. It was the same exact story the year prior with Keyonte George.

As for Reed Sheppard, I don't think he will help Kentucky win a national title. There are a lot of good players who are freshmen. We have two. I don't want my team relying on any of them for NCAA tournament success.

Experience wins in March.

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What were you expecting from Walter, prime Michael Jordan? What was he billed to be that fails to meet your lofty expectations? He was just named Big 12 freshman of the year. He starts for a 3 seed and contributes in a variety of ways to our success. If you are demanding perfection from a freshman, the problem therein lies with your unrealistic expectations.

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I sure as hell wasn't expecting 33.5 percent from the field and 29.1 percent from 3 for an 18-game conference season. I also wasn't expecting turnstile defense.

The fact that you, of all people, are coming with this after spending all of last offseason hyping Walter is hilarious.

Now, apparently, it was unfair to have any expectations whatsoever for our latest one-and-done wunderkind.

Walter has been fine. But he's relied on waaaaayyyyyyyy too heavily for what he's capable of providing at this stage of his development. Missi has been a better and more impactful player.

Not choosing sides or getting into this debate…. But…. You did spend all off season hyping JaKobes defense. We're all wrong at times so I'm not dogging on you. But you hyped the dude as this elite level defender and he's as poor as they come on the defensive end.

I still see the high-level effort and motor, but yeah, the defensive fundamentals have been exposed in a big way. Very poor footwork and takes poor angles when closing out. Those flaws weren't exposed at the high school level against weaker competition.

What about Love, Nunn, and RayJ's poor defense? RayJ is a turnover machine and Bridges' intensity drifts in and out during games. Love is a terrible defender and always injured. RayJ is a 5th year senior and the other 2 are a senior and a junior. Lohner is a senior with no skill who can only manage 5 minutes a game. I could go on and nitpicking our player flaws but you choose to do so only for the freshmen in order to fit your narrative. It is legit exhausting. So I'm checking out of this debate. I usually agree with your other basketball analysis so I will save my responses for that

There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

Mitch Henessey said:

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There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

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There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

That makes sense.

blackie said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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BUGWBBear said:

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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BUGWBBear said:

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Bearsalwayswin said:

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If you're saying Scott can't coach defenses you have the wrong idea

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He didn't bother with it today, Skeezix.

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You're never around when we win. You're always around when we lose. Why is that?

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Ask yourself that question considering I was here for the UT game.

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Yeah, talking **** until we made a 21-4 run and put it away. Then you were nowhere to be found. Par for the course.

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That's easily checkable. Once we went ahead, he took off. Didn't post at all.

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Give him some credit.....he is consistent. Doesn't matter the sport or coach, he is one of the handful of negative Nancys that is always looking for something to criticize regardless of the outcome. Never have quite understood why people want to rip at the team or coaches as if they are not trying to do everything they can to win for themselves and for us here. What purpose does it serve? If your problem is with the AD take that up with him. The coaches don't deserve having that targeted at them.

A lot of us hurt enough when we lose, especially if it is a close game or one it looked like we had. But then we have people coming on the board to tell us that the coaches can't coach and/or don't know how to recruit, the players didn't come to play, the game plans are bad, there is no discipline, the coaches don't have the experience and knowledge of being able to see what fans see in their ultimate wisdom or didn't have the team ready to play, yada, yada, yada. It is just piling on to people, players, and coaches who hurt enough just from the loss or a disappointing season. And I ask again, what is the purpose? What good does the carping produce? What is the good of cutting down the program(s) on a public message board?

We all have questions as to why things were done the way they were, why certain players were in or not in the game, and a hundred other things. And there are ways to ask those questions and have the discussions about the whys and why nots without casting stones on those involved, especially when as fans we don't know jack squat as to the circumstances on the sidelines, in the locker room, or on the recruiting trail upon which those things are decided, and would likely be clueless if we were placed in their situation under fire of non-stop action.

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Maybe the reason some people act like trolls is because they are attention seekers. If they cannot get positive they will settle for the negative. Regardless of their reasoning, it's usually pathetic & idiotic.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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This nonsense about freshman. Who do we want to start at Center besides Missi? No one comes to my mind on or off our team.

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Maybe we can snag Zach Edey from the portal!!

I was even completely off here. Still can't believe the defense. Not crazy lateral quickness but not completely stuck in the mud. Was decent at previous levels and had the measurables.

I think there are deficiencies but I'm forced to question our defensive coaching as well.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

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There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

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I responded to this on another game thread, but Houston's roster this year wasn't built with any sort of "master plan" intentionality. Yes, they have a distinct playing style - make you uncomfortable on defense by blitzing the hell out of you, and pound the offensive glass - but it's not like they had their pick of any player in the country and chose these specific players.

Jamal Shead was a 3* recruit. He's worked his ass off to become the player he is today. All credit to him and the Houston coaching staff. We actually have recruited several guys in his mold the past few years (including Jeremy Sochan, who has much more pro upside than Shead, but was a similar level recruit). Rob Wright is one of them. So is Miro Little.

We all know LJ Cryer's background. He's one of the one-year transfers that you would prefer we not build with. So is Damien Dunn, who transferred after 4 years at Temple.

Emanuel Sharp was another 3* recruit. So were J'Wan Roberts and Ja'Vier Francis. Terrence Arceneaux was a high 4* recruit, with a similar profile to Langston Love.

Jojo Tugler, their top reserve big (until he was lost for the season with a foot injury), is one of those dreaded freshmen.

Houston recruited the 3* developmental players supplemented with high 4* guys out of necessity. Their highest-rated player they've recruited recently was Jarace Walker, and he was a one-and-done. We'll see if the move to a power conference and access to higher level recruits changes their strategy.

Sampson hates one and dones (see this article for reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/college/article/Houston-Cougars-Jarace-Walker-Terrance-Arceneaux-17654294.php), but I doubt he turns down a 5* that wants to go there and fits the personality profile he's looking for. He's also 68 years old and probably has ~5 years left before he wants to turn things over to his son. I'm not sure using Houston as your shining example is that strong of a case.

In fact, I think that precisely because of the way Houston's roster is constructed, they are the #1 seed that is most vulnerable to an early-round upset this year. They're thin, particularly up front, they play a style that is very dependent on the refs not calling a tight game, and if the other team can hit skip passes and is hot from 3, they don't shoot it well enough to stay in a shootout. I think they're much more likely to make the Final Four than they are to lose in the first weekend, but of all the projected #1s, they're the one I would be least surprised to see go down in the first weekend.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

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There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

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I responded to this on another game thread, but Houston's roster this year wasn't built with any sort of "master plan" intentionality. Yes, they have a distinct playing style - make you uncomfortable on defense by blitzing the hell out of you, and pound the offensive glass - but it's not like they had their pick of any player in the country and chose these specific players.

Jamal Shead was a 3* recruit. He's worked his ass off to become the player he is today. All credit to him and the Houston coaching staff. We actually have recruited several guys in his mold the past few years (including Jeremy Sochan, who has much more pro upside than Shead, but was a similar level recruit). Rob Wright is one of them. So is Miro Little.

We all know LJ Cryer's background. He's one of the one-year transfers that you would prefer we not build with. So is Damien Dunn, who transferred after 4 years at Temple.

Emanuel Sharp was another 3* recruit. So were J'Wan Roberts and Ja'Vier Francis. Terrence Arceneaux was a high 4* recruit, with a similar profile to Langston Love.

Jojo Tugler, their top reserve big (until he was lost for the season with a foot injury), is one of those dreaded freshmen.

Houston recruited the 3* developmental players supplemented with high 4* guys out of necessity. Their highest-rated player they've recruited recently was Jarace Walker, and he was a one-and-done. We'll see if the move to a power conference and access to higher level recruits changes their strategy.

Sampson hates one and dones (see this article for reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/college/article/Houston-Cougars-Jarace-Walker-Terrance-Arceneaux-17654294.php), but I doubt he turns down a 5* that wants to go there and fits the personality profile he's looking for. He's also 68 years old and probably has ~5 years left before he wants to turn things over to his son. I'm not sure using Houston as your shining example is that strong of a case.

In fact, I think that precisely because of the way Houston's roster is constructed, they are the #1 seed that is most vulnerable to an early-round upset this year. They're thin, particularly up front, they play a style that is very dependent on the refs not calling a tight game, and if the other team can hit skip passes and is hot from 3, they don't shoot it well enough to stay in a shootout. I think they're much more likely to make the Final Four than they are to lose in the first weekend, but of all the projected #1s, they're the one I would be least surprised to see go down in the first weekend.

---

All players -- other than one-and-dones and one-year transfers -- are recruited with development goals in mind. And over the course of two, three or four years with a good coach, virtually all players will improve -- many dramatically.

No one has said there was some master plan at Houston to build this particular group into a Final Four contender. But when you give talented, hard-working players multiple years to develop together and use transfers to supplement a homegrown core, those opportunities arise organically.

We see this every year in March and have had it happen with many of our best teams.

That is IMO how you build a contender in college men's basketball, and recent trends support that assertion. Recycling your roster every season and hoping you mix the right secret sauce one year hasn't been a very successful formula for any of the programs who have tried it.

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

---

There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

---

I responded to this on another game thread, but Houston's roster this year wasn't built with any sort of "master plan" intentionality. Yes, they have a distinct playing style - make you uncomfortable on defense by blitzing the hell out of you, and pound the offensive glass - but it's not like they had their pick of any player in the country and chose these specific players.

Jamal Shead was a 3* recruit. He's worked his ass off to become the player he is today. All credit to him and the Houston coaching staff. We actually have recruited several guys in his mold the past few years (including Jeremy Sochan, who has much more pro upside than Shead, but was a similar level recruit). Rob Wright is one of them. So is Miro Little.

We all know LJ Cryer's background. He's one of the one-year transfers that you would prefer we not build with. So is Damien Dunn, who transferred after 4 years at Temple.

Emanuel Sharp was another 3* recruit. So were J'Wan Roberts and Ja'Vier Francis. Terrence Arceneaux was a high 4* recruit, with a similar profile to Langston Love.

Jojo Tugler, their top reserve big (until he was lost for the season with a foot injury), is one of those dreaded freshmen.

Houston recruited the 3* developmental players supplemented with high 4* guys out of necessity. Their highest-rated player they've recruited recently was Jarace Walker, and he was a one-and-done. We'll see if the move to a power conference and access to higher level recruits changes their strategy.

Sampson hates one and dones (see this article for reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/college/article/Houston-Cougars-Jarace-Walker-Terrance-Arceneaux-17654294.php), but I doubt he turns down a 5* that wants to go there and fits the personality profile he's looking for. He's also 68 years old and probably has ~5 years left before he wants to turn things over to his son. I'm not sure using Houston as your shining example is that strong of a case.

In fact, I think that precisely because of the way Houston's roster is constructed, they are the #1 seed that is most vulnerable to an early-round upset this year. They're thin, particularly up front, they play a style that is very dependent on the refs not calling a tight game, and if the other team can hit skip passes and is hot from 3, they don't shoot it well enough to stay in a shootout. I think they're much more likely to make the Final Four than they are to lose in the first weekend, but of all the projected #1s, they're the one I would be least surprised to see go down in the first weekend.

---

All players -- other than one-and-dones and one-year transfers -- are recruited with development goals in mind. And over the course of two, three or four years with a good coach, virtually all players will improve -- many dramatically.

No one has said there was some master plan at Houston to build this particular group into a Final Four contender. But when you give talented, hard-working players multiple years to develop together and use transfers to supplement a homegrown core, those opportunities arise organically.

We see this every year in March and have had it happen with many of our best teams.

That is IMO how you build a contender in college men's basketball, and recent trends support that assertion. Recycling your roster every season and hoping you mix the right secret sauce one year hasn't been a very successful formula for any of the programs who have tried it.

---

So, to summarize your thoughts, you'd rather we pass on the one 5* "guaranteed" one-and-done player we take each year, and instead use that scholarship slot for a developmental 3* or mid-4* type player?

There's nothing wrong with that point of view, by the way. I'm just trying to synthesize the countless essays you've written on this topic into a more succinct point so I at least know where you stand.

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

---

There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

---

I responded to this on another game thread, but Houston's roster this year wasn't built with any sort of "master plan" intentionality. Yes, they have a distinct playing style - make you uncomfortable on defense by blitzing the hell out of you, and pound the offensive glass - but it's not like they had their pick of any player in the country and chose these specific players.

Jamal Shead was a 3* recruit. He's worked his ass off to become the player he is today. All credit to him and the Houston coaching staff. We actually have recruited several guys in his mold the past few years (including Jeremy Sochan, who has much more pro upside than Shead, but was a similar level recruit). Rob Wright is one of them. So is Miro Little.

We all know LJ Cryer's background. He's one of the one-year transfers that you would prefer we not build with. So is Damien Dunn, who transferred after 4 years at Temple.

Emanuel Sharp was another 3* recruit. So were J'Wan Roberts and Ja'Vier Francis. Terrence Arceneaux was a high 4* recruit, with a similar profile to Langston Love.

Jojo Tugler, their top reserve big (until he was lost for the season with a foot injury), is one of those dreaded freshmen.

Houston recruited the 3* developmental players supplemented with high 4* guys out of necessity. Their highest-rated player they've recruited recently was Jarace Walker, and he was a one-and-done. We'll see if the move to a power conference and access to higher level recruits changes their strategy.

Sampson hates one and dones (see this article for reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/college/article/Houston-Cougars-Jarace-Walker-Terrance-Arceneaux-17654294.php), but I doubt he turns down a 5* that wants to go there and fits the personality profile he's looking for. He's also 68 years old and probably has ~5 years left before he wants to turn things over to his son. I'm not sure using Houston as your shining example is that strong of a case.

In fact, I think that precisely because of the way Houston's roster is constructed, they are the #1 seed that is most vulnerable to an early-round upset this year. They're thin, particularly up front, they play a style that is very dependent on the refs not calling a tight game, and if the other team can hit skip passes and is hot from 3, they don't shoot it well enough to stay in a shootout. I think they're much more likely to make the Final Four than they are to lose in the first weekend, but of all the projected #1s, they're the one I would be least surprised to see go down in the first weekend.

---

All players -- other than one-and-dones and one-year transfers -- are recruited with development goals in mind. And over the course of two, three or four years with a good coach, virtually all players will improve -- many dramatically.

No one has said there was some master plan at Houston to build this particular group into a Final Four contender. But when you give talented, hard-working players multiple years to develop together and use transfers to supplement a homegrown core, those opportunities arise organically.

We see this every year in March and have had it happen with many of our best teams.

That is IMO how you build a contender in college men's basketball, and recent trends support that assertion. Recycling your roster every season and hoping you mix the right secret sauce one year hasn't been a very successful formula for any of the programs who have tried it.

---

So, to summarize your thoughts, you'd rather we pass on the one 5* "guaranteed" one-and-done player we take each year, and instead use that scholarship slot for a developmental 3* or mid-4* type player?

There's nothing wrong with that point of view, by the way. I'm just trying to synthesize the countless essays you've written on this topic into a more succinct point so I at least know where you stand.

---

Yes. 100 percent. I wouldn't even pursue them. A lot of them are good players and good kids. But a long and growing sample of data suggests they're not likely to help you make deep runs March, which is literally my only goal, and they leave roster holes that are hard to fill when they move on.

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

There's no need to dog players on our team just to try to win imaginary internet points, guys.

I'm always curious who all the people that vehemently disagree with our recruiting strategy would have us sign instead of high level recruits. It seems like it's easy to nitpick decisions that are made, but unless you're bringing solutions, it's not a helpful critique.

I'll put my money where my mouth is: next year, we lose RayJ, Bridges, Missi, and Walter. Lohner participated in Senior Day celebrations, so that tells me he won't be back next year, even though he has one more year of eligibility. Although, I think Bridges participated in last year's and still came back, so it might not mean anything, either.

I don't think we'll go after a high-level PG, as we'll probably rely on Rob Wright and Miro Little to fill the primary ballhandler role, with Jayden Nunn providing secondary ballhandler capabilities.

Off-guard is going to be the Langston Love/Jayden Nunn/VJ Edgecombe show.

Josh Ojianwuna probably slots into the starting big role, with Noah Boyed filling one of the backup big positions. We'll probably need to hit the transfer portal for a big.

At forward, Jason Asemota is going to be a good player for us. But he's not going to be a Jalen Bridges replacement in Year 1 (would love to be wrong on this, though). So, we'll probably have to hit the transfer portal on a SF/PF type next year, as well.

I know Drew prefers to play 4-Out (maybe even 5-Out, if we can find a big proficient at shooting), but I really think this team needs a traditional PF guy who will rebound, play defense, and bang down low. Maybe Yanis Ndjonga is that guy, but I really don't know enough about his game to say anything about him.

I'll hold off on specific transfer targets until we know who will be in the portal, but that's my solution for next season.

PG: Wright/Little
SG: Nunn/Love/Edgecombe
SF: Edgecombe/Asemota/Transfer target
PF: Transfer target/Ndjonga
C: Ojianwuna/Boyed/Transfer target

I don't know where this leaves Lohner. Maybe he can fill some SF/PF minutes if he comes back, but it also takes a roster spot we can't give to an impact player from the portal. I'm also not considering Omar Adegbola, a combo guard who is redshirting this year. Maybe he becomes something, too. Right now, we need 2, maybe 3 guys from the portal.

---

There are a lot of talented, high level recruits who play more than one year of college ball. We built a national championship program with exactly such players. And Houston just dominated the Big 12 in its first year with a batch of them. You're reverting back to the false choice I mention above.

What I want is simple. I want to recruit and build our rosters the way we did while building this program into a national power. We've changed our strategy on both simply because we can, and the results haven't been better.

There's almost no building taking place in our program right now. Between freshmen and short-term transfers, we reshuffle the deck and put all of our eggs in a new basket every year.

All of our best teams were built. Every single one. We've had one off down years since we got the program on track, but all of them led to something significantly better ... and in short order. We're not building toward anything anymore. It's just recruit and hope every year.

---

I responded to this on another game thread, but Houston's roster this year wasn't built with any sort of "master plan" intentionality. Yes, they have a distinct playing style - make you uncomfortable on defense by blitzing the hell out of you, and pound the offensive glass - but it's not like they had their pick of any player in the country and chose these specific players.

Jamal Shead was a 3* recruit. He's worked his ass off to become the player he is today. All credit to him and the Houston coaching staff. We actually have recruited several guys in his mold the past few years (including Jeremy Sochan, who has much more pro upside than Shead, but was a similar level recruit). Rob Wright is one of them. So is Miro Little.

We all know LJ Cryer's background. He's one of the one-year transfers that you would prefer we not build with. So is Damien Dunn, who transferred after 4 years at Temple.

Emanuel Sharp was another 3* recruit. So were J'Wan Roberts and Ja'Vier Francis. Terrence Arceneaux was a high 4* recruit, with a similar profile to Langston Love.

Jojo Tugler, their top reserve big (until he was lost for the season with a foot injury), is one of those dreaded freshmen.

Houston recruited the 3* developmental players supplemented with high 4* guys out of necessity. Their highest-rated player they've recruited recently was Jarace Walker, and he was a one-and-done. We'll see if the move to a power conference and access to higher level recruits changes their strategy.

Sampson hates one and dones (see this article for reference: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/college/article/Houston-Cougars-Jarace-Walker-Terrance-Arceneaux-17654294.php), but I doubt he turns down a 5* that wants to go there and fits the personality profile he's looking for. He's also 68 years old and probably has ~5 years left before he wants to turn things over to his son. I'm not sure using Houston as your shining example is that strong of a case.

In fact, I think that precisely because of the way Houston's roster is constructed, they are the #1 seed that is most vulnerable to an early-round upset this year. They're thin, particularly up front, they play a style that is very dependent on the refs not calling a tight game, and if the other team can hit skip passes and is hot from 3, they don't shoot it well enough to stay in a shootout. I think they're much more likely to make the Final Four than they are to lose in the first weekend, but of all the projected #1s, they're the one I would be least surprised to see go down in the first weekend.

---

All players -- other than one-and-dones and one-year transfers -- are recruited with development goals in mind. And over the course of two, three or four years with a good coach, virtually all players will improve -- many dramatically.

No one has said there was some master plan at Houston to build this particular group into a Final Four contender. But when you give talented, hard-working players multiple years to develop together and use transfers to supplement a homegrown core, those opportunities arise organically.

We see this every year in March and have had it happen with many of our best teams.

That is IMO how you build a contender in college men's basketball, and recent trends support that assertion. Recycling your roster every season and hoping you mix the right secret sauce one year hasn't been a very successful formula for any of the programs who have tried it.

---

So, to summarize your thoughts, you'd rather we pass on the one 5* "guaranteed" one-and-done player we take each year, and instead use that scholarship slot for a developmental 3* or mid-4* type player?

There's nothing wrong with that point of view, by the way. I'm just trying to synthesize the countless essays you've written on this topic into a more succinct point so I at least know where you stand.

---

Yes. 100 percent. I wouldn't even pursue them. A lot of them are good players and good kids. But a long and growing sample of data suggests they're not likely to help you make deep runs March, which is literally my only goal, and they leave roster holes that are hard to fill when they move on.

---

That's fair. There are risks to each approach, though. The risk of your approach is that, for every Jared Butler or Anthony Jones you get and keep for 3-4 years, you can also end up with a Zach Loveday or Jordan Turner who don't get minutes for 3+ years and clog a roster spot. You can maybe get away with this if your coach is ruthless and is willing to kick guys to the curb that don't pan out. But that's not Drew's MO, and that's not how he's built an amazing culture that rarely loses guys to the portal.

The risk to the 5* approach is obvious. Even if you get a guy who is great, you only have him for one year, and you aren't getting him at his best. He's going to move on and become a much better player as he reaches his ceiling at the next level. The reward is high, though. If you hit the right guy, you could end up with a Kevin Durant/Carmelo Anthony type player who can singlehandedly force teams to gameplan around him and can take over any game at a moment's notice.

Admittedly, we've never had a guy like that; few teams do. Keyonte George was not what we were looking for in that type player. Full stop. Ja'Kobe Walter is closer, but he's not consistent. Maybe VJ Edgecombe is that guy. I don't know, and won't speculate.

I'm always going to bet on elite talent. If it works, you have a generational player who wins big in school and is forever associated with the university at the pro level. If it doesn't, you still have a solid team around him and are always in the conversation for a deep March run. I understand that's not other's preference, and I'm fine having a difference in opinion. Maybe Drew and staff come around to your way of thinking eventually if they don't see the results of this current strategy pay off.

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

And I also get his point. You don't have the chance to develop a Shead if you are recruiting above his level in the first place. They're both fair arguments, in my opinion.

My argument would be, Sampson's approach has never won a championship. Our current approach has never won a championship, either, but the system we won our championship in doesn't exist any longer, with the transfer portal + NIL changing the landscape so dramatically.

Given the current realities of the college game, I'll bet on talent. You might not win every time, but you'll win more often than you lose.

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

---

It isn't that interesting though. This is directly correlated with their fbi investigation issues. Their hand was forced as their recruiting fell off (just recently picking back up). It's well documented.

So they didn't have to make the decision we've all been debating for so long. They were relegated to the so called sweet spot players. Third and fourth year guys who actually go on to play pro.

Point is, Self wasn't making deliberate decisions to shun top guys. They were whiffing due to off court issues.

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

And this may catch me some heat -- and it will almost certainly be misconstrued by those who reflexively disagree with my posts -- but I'm not sure Scott Drew is the best fit for elite freshman talent because of his coaching style.

Don't get me wrong, Drew and the Baylor culture is great for those individuals' growth -- both on and off the court. Freshmen will leave Baylor better people than they were when they arrived, and the experience they gain in Waco will make them better players at the next level. But because of Drew's "player's coach" nature, and his general unwillingness to use playing time as a behavior modifier, guys never face the same level of on-court accountability in our program that they would elsewhere.

That allows those players a ton of rope to work through their issues and hopefully come out the other side better, but I'm not sure it always makes us a better team. Our first two "one-and-done" talents -- Perry Jones and Isaiah Austin -- were part of such disastrous teams as freshmen that they were forced to come back for a second season. And Quincy Miller, who is up there with Keyonte George as one of the most disinterested defenders in the post-turnaround Baylor basketball era, likely would have done the same if he had had as large a role in his freshman team's success as Jones and Austin did in theirs. Fortunately, he joined a really talented, really experienced core and was able to settle into a tertiary role ... and the team was much better off for it.

Scott Drew is an elite college basketball coach. Period. Full stop. His coaching style has helped create one of the most consistently elite offensive programs in the country. So this isn't a criticism of him or his style, so much as a potential acknowledgement that it may not fit certain players as well as others.

If you listened to the Isaiah Austin interview posted here a week or two ago, there were multiple references to Drew's forgiving nature and acknowledgements by Isaiah himself that he often took advantage of it. While that eventually helped Austin become the player and person he became as a sophomore, it also likely allowed the previous year's team to spiral farther out of control than it ever probably should have. Same with Perry's freshman season, which was mired by the whole Lace Dunn situation/distraction.

I say all that to say this. I think if you're going to have success with one-and-done talent, you'll do it by managing those players very closely. Unless it's a situation like Kendall Brown, who was deferential by his nature, or Jeremy Sochan and Yves Missi, who were just way beyond their years from a maturity standpoint, I think these guys need to be reined early and often. If they're not, they can spend their entire time on your campus making the same mistakes. Scott Drew has many, many strengths as a head coach. Riding herd on undisciplined or struggling players isn't one of them.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

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Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

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That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

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I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

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I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

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It isn't that interesting though. This is directly correlated with their fbi investigation issues. Their hand was forced as their recruiting fell off (just recently picking back up). It's well documented.

So they didn't have to make the decision we've all been debating for so long. They were relegated to the so called sweet spot players. Third and fourth year guys who actually go on to play pro.

Point is, Self wasn't making deliberate decisions to shun top guys. They were whiffing due to off court issues.

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That trend pre-dates the FBI investigation. They've had way more developmental stars than one-and-done stars since the Wiggins/Embiid year 10 years ago. It's basically been Josh Jackson and Grady Dick since.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

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That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

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I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

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And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

Now I can buy some of that. And I agree others will misinterpret what you're saying so it's hard to broach the subject.

I get where you're coming from and I agree in part. I think we need a tough veteran coach added for defense/consistency of motivation. The "bad cop" role that also really knows scheme.

I think this is an important broader question but I see how you're associating it with one and dones in particular. Makes sense. I actually think this is an even more critical issue than just the one and dones on their own.