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Baylor Basketball

After Loss Tennessee Loss, Baylor Basketball Should Consider Major Moves

November 22, 2024
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For the second time over a full game this season and the third half of this tournament, Baylor looked awful. The Bears lost the first half by 27 points. 

Although Baylor scored more points than the Volunteers in the second half, it’s hard for me to say “won” when a team lost the first half by so much that the second proved irrelevant; the Bears only made a bit of a run with the outcome assured. 

Baylor does have some talented pieces still.

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Discussion from...

After Loss Tennessee Loss, Baylor Basketball Should Consider Major Moves

9,354 Views | 58 Replies | Last: 13 days ago by FLBear5630
BluesBear
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So if "there is still some talented pieces", then it must be the coaching…..Kentucky fans already rejoicing the bullet they dodged.
FLBear5630
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BluesBear said:

So if "there is still some talented pieces", then it must be the coaching…..Kentucky fans already rejoicing the bullet they dodged.


Yeah, the guy forgot how to coach. Could just be early and they are still figuring out what works. Maybe it is a Round of 32 type year.

Should we start a fire Scott Drew movement to go with the Fire Aranda. Fire the AD. Chase off the WBB coach. Seeing a trend?
ZachTay
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It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
Daveisabovereproach
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BluesBear said:

So if "there is still some talented pieces", then it must be the coaching…..Kentucky fans already rejoicing the bullet they dodged.


Dave was nearly untouchable on here after one good season. What does that make Scott Drew? don't expect much of a discussion about coaching issues
FLBear5630
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ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track
ZachTay
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FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track
Agree. A deep run in the tourney is the only measure of success in the game now. I believe Drew can do it again, it's just much harder on him now (IMO) when you have the ruleless transfer portal, out of control NIL, and the NBA changing out your lineup every season.
IowaBear
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When you have clear deficiencies it's incredibly hard to peak. We've seen that the last 2 years. When you're this poor defensively your ceiling is significantly lower. Doesn't matter how great you are offensively. And we haven't even been good offensively aside from vs the cupcakes and Johnnie's. Rd 32 is again the ceiling. Gonna have to realize at some point that coaching defense does in fact matter.
Big12Fan2024
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Michigan St has made 1 Sweet 16 and 1 Final 4 in the past 10 years. Otherwise they've never made it past the Round of 32. The Final Four team finished 1st in the B1G so it's hard to say he was struggling during the year and the Sweet 16 team finished 4th, which is also hard to say they were struggling in a 14 team league at the time.

Those "average" (anything worse than 4th) Izzo teams that we always hear about "making runs" after finishing middle of the pack in the B1G?

5th place in B1G(2016-17) = out in the Round of 32
8th in the B1G (2020-21) = out in a First Four game
7th in the B1G (2021-22) = out in the Round of 32
6th in the B1G (2023-24) = out in the Round of 32

Other than those years, Izzo has not finished lower than 4th place in the B1G since 2006. So, data shows the real story of the make believe anecdotal statements made by alleged tv analysts who are too lazy to do their jobs and simply repeat what someone else says rather than look up the data themselves.

MIchigan St Trips to either Elite 8 or Final 4 under Izzo, which are "deep runs" in the tournament:

1999 Final Four (1st in B1G)
2000 Champion (1st in B1G)
2001 Final Four (1st in the B1G)
2003 Elite 8 (3rd in B1G)
2005 Final Four (2nd in B1G)
2009 Runner Up (1st in B1G)
2010 Final Four (1st in B1G)
2014 Elite 8 (2nd in B1G)
2015 Final Four (3rd in B1G)
2019 Final Four (1st in B1G)

Hardly the story you hear tv broadcasters spout off.




Bearsalwayswin
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y'all are insane. drew isn't going anywhere and he dooesnt deserve to. HE is the one who made our standard so high. what was the standard 20 years ago.
Chuckroast
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Bearsalwayswin said:

y'all are insane. drew isn't going anywhere and he dooesnt deserve to. HE is the one who made our standard so high. what was the standard 20 years ago.


Agree - it's a little mind numbing reading some of these reactions.
Guitarbiscuit
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FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.
Quinton
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Of course best to ignore this sites basketball take, they need to maintain relationships so they go softer. Understandable .

They've finally come around to what has been said here for a few years, the defense is pathetic and our defensive coaching is straight up bad.

Unfortunately last few years I've heard the staff say stuff like "we're getting better" throughout the year but it wasn't the case. The bad D has been the most consistent thing about the program last few years. Last offseason was the time to give a coach total authority to turn around the D, didn't happen. Need a fire that isn't afraid to cross the players/ Drew at times.

It's great that everyone is such great people but they need that fire. It's an issue permeating throughout the athletic department. Lost the edge, need it back quickly
Big12Fan2024
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Quinton said:



Unfortunately last few years I've heard the staff say stuff like "we're getting better" throughout the year but it wasn't the case. The bad D has been the most consistent thing about the program last few years. Last offseason was the time to give a coach total authority to turn around the D, didn't happen. Need a fire that isn't afraid to cross the players/ Drew at times.

I
Correct. This is a fairly large anecdotal dream that happens every year not only with us but other programs. I know it gives fans hope, but it rarely happens. You can go back through almost every major defensive metric of any high major over the past 15 years and there has never been more than something like a 19% improvement in defensive efficiency over the course of a season. Essentially, your skills are what they are and no coaching staff who didn't already have the defensive principles instilled in their team at the beginning of the year suddenly flipped a switch a bad defensive team became a good one. It has to start at the core in recruiting and coaching staff has to have its foundational principles layed out when the first practice ball is rolled out.

Offensive efficiency has shown to improve at much greater rates than defensive efficiency throughout a year.
FLBear5630
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Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Mitch Henessey
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FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Dude, what? This is a 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament squad, bare minimum.
FLBear5630
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Mitch Henessey said:

FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Dude, what? This is a 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament squad, bare minimum.
Ok, let's see how it plays out. Lost too many pools on that logic...
Guitarbiscuit
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FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group

Me too, though I miss the days we were in the Sweet 16. Seems like lately we just don't have the defense to get into the 2nd weekend.
FLBear5630
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Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group

Me too, though I miss the days we were in the Sweet 16. Seems like lately we just don't have the defense to get into the 2nd weekend.
Sweet 16 would be great and the right draw who knows. But, winning a game in tourney is good bar for right now
BUCANDOIT82
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I think right now everyone is overreacting to our two losses. A new team loses to a very good and very experienced team in the first game of the season. Same team then loses on a back to back after playing double overtime and having to come from way behind to a team that coasted to an easy victory the night before. Little things like confusion in the first game and tired legs in the second matter. And both of those teams shot the lights out from 3 as did the team that lost to us in double overtime.

Let's see what happens versus Connecticut. Starting Wright and Celestine for Josh and Jayden would help a ton. Josh should just be Orchad's backup since playing them together is not working and provides no synergies.
Quinton
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Mitch Henessey said:

FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Dude, what? This is a 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament squad, bare minimum.


I know you see the complaints and you usually come through and give your best rational slow your panic takes

What is your view on the defense now and over the last few years? Do you think its salvageable
BUCANDOIT82
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You mean the last 2 years, and this year, not the last few years. The year after our Natty our defense was still spectacular.
Mitch Henessey
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Quinton said:

Mitch Henessey said:

FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Dude, what? This is a 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament squad, bare minimum.


I know you see the complaints and you usually come through and give your best rational slow your panic takes

What is your view on the defense now and over the last few years? Do you think its salvageable
Good question. I think it is. Individually, we have good defenders. Nunn is a plus defender, Edgecombe is another plus guy. Roach is a decent defender. Ojianwuna is a bit stiff, but he gives good effort, and he has size. Omier is undersized, and has been extremely foul-prone this year, but his effort is never in question. That's your starting 5, and there's a not a "bad" defender in the bunch. So, for that reason alone, I think we can become at least a serviceable defensive squad. With this offensive firepower, that might be enough to make a run.

The issues we have are twofold. The rest of the guys in our rotation aren't plus defenders. Langston Love is not a good defender, and his ankle issues have sapped much of his ability to stay in front of his man on defense. Rob Wright is a willing defender, but he's undersized, and he's more advanced on the offensive end at this point. That said, he can patrol the passing lanes well enough to stress the opposing offense. I haven't seen enough of Celestine to say anything overtly negative about him, but he hasn't stood out thus far for his defensive prowess.

Our larger (and really, overarching) issue is our defensive scheme. Coach Drew likes to say "the smart steal from the strong." He "stole" the No Middle defense from Chris Beard and Mark Adams, and while it worked beautifully for several years, teams adjusted to it, and we've always been a player-friendly program. We don't have a hardass coach who demands we focus on defense or you don't play. The great defensive teams we've had have been player-led. The older players on those squads have demanded accountability and bought in, and it worked in the pre-NIL era.

This team has veteran players. Jeremy Roach has been to a Final Four. So has Norchad Omier. Jayden Nunn is experienced. Josh Ojianwuna is experienced. The rub is that only 3 of the guys in our 8-man rotation have ever played together before this season. Can we come together and peak at the right time? Absolutely. The talent is there (although we are small and very thin down low). Will we? Tough to predict. I don't think we learned anything from the Gonzaga game, as it wasn't our night and we flat out got our doors blown off. I think the Tennessee game was a great learning experience. We have to get inside the other team's best players' jerseys, and before the second half of that game, we didn't do it.

TL;DR - the potential is there. Our talent level is good. Our scheme is uneven and might not be suited to the talent we have on hand. I think we can peak late, but this isn't a national title contender. We could get hot and maybe make a Final Four, though. We could also flame out in the Round of 32 yet again, too. I think the UConn game will tell us a lot.
Quinton
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I agree with most of this especially the coaching philosophy. I think we needed Drew to make a slight adjustment and allow a more discipline focused defensive assistant to take the lead on that end.

It isn't ideal to what Drew envisions but I believe it was/is necessary. Can't leave it up to having the perfect blend of self motivated guys to make it happen. Too much variability and it just isn't working right now.

Also a good point on the no middle and the catch up to the scheme. I agree and have seen us go to a more conventional scheme over time which isn't clicking.
Quinton
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I mean the last two seasons and this year (so far). Few can = two and change. We've all rehashed how good the 22 team was. I'm pretty confident that team relatively healthy wins the title fairly easily. Of course accounting for some unpredictability tied to the tourney.
FLBear5630
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Quinton said:

I mean the last two seasons and this year (so far). We've all rehashed how good the 22 team was. I'm pretty confident that team relatively healthy wins the title fairly easily. Of course accounting for some unpredictability tied to the tourney.


22 was great, but we are in 24. Same with football 20 and 15 were great, that doesn't help us now. Constantly comparing and acting like HC should be fired because he e doesn't have 20 every year doesn't help. (Not you, in general)

The recruiting, NIL, transfer changed don't help. Guys like Drew and Izzo made a living finding chip on their shoulder, work hard guys. Now they all make more than the fans in college. Hard to motivate when they are driving Escalades (dating myself, so they still make those?)
TWD 1974
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Mitch Henessey said:

Quinton said:

Mitch Henessey said:

FLBear5630 said:

Guitarbiscuit said:

FLBear5630 said:

ZachTay said:

It's encouraging to see an article on here that speaks more toward reality, and not straight sunshine pumping.

The largest concern is what is the most obvious: Of their first 6 games, Baylor has played 4 quality opponents (i.e. ranked in some form). If not for a buzzer-beating Hail Mary prayer/miracle they would be 1-3 in those games......looking competitive in only one of them. And two were utter beat-down embarrassments.

Something is off, and I believe it's again the combination of having to put a completely fresh mix of players on the court every year and critical losses of talented assistants that were the ones making the team what it was. Team chemistry has been missing for the 3rd consecutive year now (it appears). The Final 4 / Championship teams had team chemistry from playing together for more than one season.

Like last year, this already is not looking like a deep run tournament team (NCAA not NIT). And any chance at a BigXII conference championship clearly already looks unattainable at this point.

So, where is Baylor? At a crossroads, with an decision point of changing the program's course? Perhaps. It just REALLY sucks for us that Mack Rhoades is at the helm of those kind of calls. In him.....none of us should trust.

Sic'em
I agree. Change direction? I believe that has been BUs problem. A season or two of not winning and we want to jetison the staff and start over. These guys are pros, Drew has been successful, he knows what the issues are. Can he solve them? Probably somewhat. But, making the tournament and peaking for the tourney is what the game is about. The Izzo school, MSU looks average alot and then the tourney comes MSU is there. I am hoping we are on that track


Back when we had better assistants and a program that was not a revolving door year after year, I'd agree with you. But I don't see any deep runs by this team until these 2 major issues are successfully addressed.

I would be happy with round of 32 bow out with this group
Dude, what? This is a 4 seed in the NCAA Tournament squad, bare minimum.


I know you see the complaints and you usually come through and give your best rational slow your panic takes

What is your view on the defense now and over the last few years? Do you think its salvageable
Good question. I think it is. Individually, we have good defenders. Nunn is a plus defender, Edgecombe is another plus guy. Roach is a decent defender. Ojianwuna is a bit stiff, but he gives good effort, and he has size. Omier is undersized, and has been extremely foul-prone this year, but his effort is never in question. That's your starting 5, and there's a not a "bad" defender in the bunch. So, for that reason alone, I think we can become at least a serviceable defensive squad. With this offensive firepower, that might be enough to make a run.

The issues we have are twofold. The rest of the guys in our rotation aren't plus defenders. Langston Love is not a good defender, and his ankle issues have sapped much of his ability to stay in front of his man on defense. Rob Wright is a willing defender, but he's undersized, and he's more advanced on the offensive end at this point. That said, he can patrol the passing lanes well enough to stress the opposing offense. I haven't seen enough of Celestine to say anything overtly negative about him, but he hasn't stood out thus far for his defensive prowess.

Our larger (and really, overarching) issue is our defensive scheme. Coach Drew likes to say "the smart steal from the strong." He "stole" the No Middle defense from Chris Beard and Mark Adams, and while it worked beautifully for several years, teams adjusted to it, and we've always been a player-friendly program. We don't have a hardass coach who demands we focus on defense or you don't play. The great defensive teams we've had have been player-led. The older players on those squads have demanded accountability and bought in, and it worked in the pre-NIL era.

This team has veteran players. Jeremy Roach has been to a Final Four. So has Norchad Omier. Jayden Nunn is experienced. Josh Ojianwuna is experienced. The rub is that only 3 of the guys in our 8-man rotation have ever played together before this season. Can we come together and peak at the right time? Absolutely. The talent is there (although we are small and very thin down low). Will we? Tough to predict. I don't think we learned anything from the Gonzaga game, as it wasn't our night and we flat out got our doors blown off. I think the Tennessee game was a great learning experience. We have to get inside the other team's best players' jerseys, and before the second half of that game, we didn't do it.

TL;DR - the potential is there. Our talent level is good. Our scheme is uneven and might not be suited to the talent we have on hand. I think we can peak late, but this isn't a national title contender. We could get hot and maybe make a Final Four, though. We could also flame out in the Round of 32 yet again, too. I think the UConn game will tell us a lot.
I agree pretty much with your assessments. This is a talented, exciting group of players and they can and will be a lot of fun to watch. But the problems with replacing what we have lost (team and staff) from last year and the past 3, has left some inconsistencies and weaknesses that result in our having real matchup problems with some teams we have and will face this season. With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth after the Tenn. game, from the outset of the season, I thought Baylor would likely be 8-3 through non-conference. Unless Drew added a game with the Celtics in the Garden, I can't think of a more difficult set of games for us.

Barring injury, we will get better defensively. If we also get a little more consistent on offense, the defense can improve as well. We are going to have a shooters chance in pretty much every game we play. If we all go frigid from outside, we can also lose to just about anyone, regardless of the defensive scheme, or the acumen of orders coming from the staff.
Big12Fan2024
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The defensive commentary and projections in this thread will be very interesting to re-visit after the UConn game. Individual defensive metrics tracked across multiple platforms don't reconcile with some of our fan assessments about individual players' abilities so it will be interesting to see whether the hard data is more representative of what we actually have or perhaps (and hopefully) our fans' gut instincts about their abilities are more correct.
Mitch Henessey
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Big12Fan2024 said:

The defensive commentary and projections in this thread will be very interesting to re-visit after the UConn game. Individual defensive metrics tracked across multiple platforms don't reconcile with some of our fan assessments about individual players' abilities so it will be interesting to see whether the hard data is more representative of what we actually have or perhaps (and hopefully) our fans' gut instincts about their abilities are more correct.
Data is good, and incredibly important. I'm a huge proponent of never making a significant decision or judgement without it. That said, I'm not sure how useful an individual player defensive metric is in the college game. College defenses are so scheme dependent, and you rarely see iso offenses utilized at the college level (primarily because there isn't an illegal defense rule in college, and the zone rules are much more liberal than they are in the pros).

This isn't too say not to use data platforms at all to assess defense, as you can probably verify your intuition with them, but there's probably a good reason you rarely, if ever, see NBA Draft sites and pundits use individual defensive metrics at the college level. Instead, they use game film to project how a player can fit into pro defenses, which are much more individualistic, and more suited to being assessed by those data sites.
OldBurlyBear86
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Keep this in mind, to have a chance playing any form of respectable defense we need to have a solid 8 man rotation.

As we sit right now, we need 9 consistent players....we have neither the numbers nor the experience to execute anything other than a base match up zone.

Hopefully, the above metrics take care of themselves in January.
BluesBear
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OldBurlyBear86 said:

Keep this in mind, to have a chance playing any form of respectable defense we need to have a solid 8 man rotation.

As we sit right now, we need 9 consistent players....we have neither the numbers nor the experience to execute anything other than a base match up zone.

Hopefully, the above metrics take care of themselves in January.
Or, could it be the players we brought in just don't have the ability to play in multiple defensive scheme's....we look too closely at general stats and not at the systems these players played in - - it's disappointing at this part of the season with all the practices/team activities over the past few months that we struggle to play anything but a match up zone. Shoot - you have one coach per player ratio almost, can't be that hard to teach this stuff.
bear2be2
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I think we have a major roster construction/recruiting strategy problem, but I've been beating that drum for three years now.

This year's team may be the most flawed of the last three, too.
BUCANDOIT82
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You can't coach/ teach basketball IQ…A player is born with a Basketball IQ, or they're not. Another term would be spatial ability.
IowaBear
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This take often gets crapped on by the usual suspects. But its much closer to reality than most admit.
Watching ISU absolutely embarrass Auburn. ISU roster returning a ton of talent. It absolutely pays to get a core together multiple years. Meanwhile will be doing a complete overhaul again this coming off season
BUCANDOIT82
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This team, if healthy, is going to shock some people. Lots of potential…It's up to the coaches to connect the dots.
Quinton
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BUCANDOIT82 said:

You can't coach/ teach basketball IQ…A player is born with a Basketball IQ, or they're not. Another term would be spatial ability.
82, Cryer on BU is one of the worst defenders of the last 10 years in major cbb. Right now, he is an average defender to slightly below avg defender. Barely any talent for it but plays 100Xs harder and shows more awareness than he did here. This is all in less than 2 years. He showed immediate progress within a year. It can be coached.

Iowa st and Houston are just not briming with uber defenders. They are coached and developed into it. In fact Iowa St isn't uber athletic this year and Houstons guards are not athletic this year. Self also always seems to manage to cobble together a defense with various roster make ups.

We have the best athlete in cbb (albeat young), we have one of the strongest players in all of cbb, and we have a decent athlete at guard who needs a little more awarness in Nunn. Roach has been an average to decent defender most of his career against elite comp. We should be able to cobble something together.
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