The Rhule Hire - Hindsight

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3 and OUT
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historian said:

303Bear said:

remember the number of 10+ win seasons in program history.. its a small number
Only 5:

1980 under the legendary Coach Teaff
2011 + RGIII's Heisman & first ever win over OU
2013 + Big 12 Championship, 11-win season, second ever win over OU, & first ever win in Manhattan
2014 + Big 12 Championship, 11-win season, & only ever win over OU in Norman
2015 + only ever Belitnikoff, 2nd ever win in Manhattan (with a true freshman backup QB), & record
breaking bowl win relying on a QB #3 & "Wild Bear" offense (most rushing yards ever in a bowl
game, 645)

(Don't tell the haters, but CAB was our coach in the last 4).

To be fair, we usually only played 10 regular season games until the early 70's. Then it went to 11 until the early 2000's when it went to 12. There were also way less bowl games. Winning 10 used to be way more rare before the 12th regular season game, conference championship games, and onslaught of bowl games became standard. I still use it as an important benchmark though since aggy only has one in last 20+ years...
Pro Ecclesia, Pro Texana
Aliceinbubbleland
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I'm still on the fence. All of you know I think Art Briles walks on water but I'm willing to watch and move forward. I will never understand why our fan base thinks wins over sleepwalking opponents count for anything other than aa perceived goal of getting a bowl bid. I'd rather watch spring practice than SFA or UTSA.

We should have won the UT game last year. That would be a huge hurdle to move the program forward. The TCU loss was 100% inexcusable.

Let's see what we do with the bigger boys like UT, OU, TT, OSU, ISU and even KSU before we anoint a coach. If he continues to improve the record each year (throwing out any wins over the likes of our non-conference so far) then I'm all in. It remains to be seen.
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Brian Ethridge
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

I'm still on the fence. All of you know I think Art Briles walks on water but I'm willing to watch and move forward. I will never understand why our fan base thinks wins over sleepwalking opponents count for anything other than aa perceived goal of getting a bowl bid. I'd rather watch spring practice than SFA or UTSA.

We should have won the UT game last year. That would be a huge hurdle to move the program forward. The TCU loss was 100% inexcusable.

Let's see what we do with the bigger boys like UT, OU, TT, OSU, ISU and even KSU before we anoint a coach. If he continues to improve the record each year (throwing out any wins over the likes of our non-conference so far) then I'm all in. It remains to be seen.
Defeated Tech, OSU, and KSU last year. ISU will be a barometer this season as 2018 should have been a win with the wasted opportunities inside the 20 and missed FGs.
303Bear
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3 and OUT said:

historian said:

303Bear said:

remember the number of 10+ win seasons in program history.. its a small number
Only 5:

1980 under the legendary Coach Teaff
2011 + RGIII's Heisman & first ever win over OU
2013 + Big 12 Championship, 11-win season, second ever win over OU, & first ever win in Manhattan
2014 + Big 12 Championship, 11-win season, & only ever win over OU in Norman
2015 + only ever Belitnikoff, 2nd ever win in Manhattan (with a true freshman backup QB), & record
breaking bowl win relying on a QB #3 & "Wild Bear" offense (most rushing yards ever in a bowl
game, 645)

(Don't tell the haters, but CAB was our coach in the last 4).

To be fair, we usually only played 10 regular season games until the early 70's. Then it went to 11 until the early 2000's when it went to 12. There were also way less bowl games. Winning 10 used to be way more rare before the 12th regular season game, conference championship games, and onslaught of bowl games became standard. I still use it as an important benchmark though since aggy only has one in last 20+ years...
Given our program history and results, setting the benchmark at 8+ wins still does not produce a huge number of results (20ish I think). We have a ~.500 record historically over the last 120 years of playing organized football.

Regardless of how you feel about Rhule, its silly to say that an 8-4 or better season is in any way a failure. It could be disappointing in a given year, but it will (likely) never be a failure for this program.
Aliceinbubbleland
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Concur. I was pleasantly surprised at the Tech win. OSU was as strange a game as I've seen in some time.
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Brian Ethridge
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

Concur. I was pleasantly surprised at the Tech win. OSU was as strange a game as I've seen in some time.
Take the W all day long. KSU was a tight one as well, losing the turnover battle.

ISU had that butt clinched prior to Brewer being ejected.
SATXBear
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Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

BigOleBear said:

I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.


The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.


He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players. He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football but whatever.

He needs to win something that matters to be a "good" hire and that should be our expectation of every coach. If they can't finish in the top 10, win the conference, or some equivalent measure of success then we need to look at why and fix the problem. It could be the coach, facilities, or something else. So far he's won nothing but he's only had 2 seasons so that doesn't really matter yet. The jury should be out until he wins big or doesn't after 4-5 years or fails so badly before then the future result is clear and we cut ties early. As I stated earlier in the thread year 3 just began at give him time.

I don't see the second part happening so let's hope the first part happens! I'm ready for some good years again.




In 2017 there was very little talent left. Also, a lot of players did not fit his system and there were upper class men not buying in. Rhule had a 3-4 win team based on talent and only won one game in 2017. Rhule's coaching deficits the first year cost Baylor 2-3 wins at most, but now things are in place. As he said, trust the process. Guess you don't.



So the talent just vaporized when one class out of 4+ graduated? You realize how crazy that sounds, right? Most of that team won the only 7 games they were coached the year before and had won conference titles.

You're correct they didn't all fit into his system but that's also on Rhule as he decided to do what he wanted and presumably knew the transition would be rough. His choice as he's the coach but he chose the path that took us that direction.


This thing has been broken down on premium side multiple times over the last two years. I am not going try to convince you of anything because you do not want to see the truth. S11 and Ethridge analyzed this thing many times. The 2015 and 2016 classes were not as strong as everyone thought and both had tremendous attrition. 2017 was a patchwork class. In 2017 many players did not fit in or did not buy in.

So yes, there was no talent and a lot of the guys left needed development. Rhule has done a remarkable job considering the disaster he started with.
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Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

BigOleBear said:

I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.


The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.


He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players.

Other than TWill (one cut runner with limited speed behind a shaky line) or maybe Waz (4.8 speed at 5-11 and 180) who did you want to play that didn't? Neither of those two are game changing.

Also the roster shouldn't have gone 1-11. It should have won 3-5 games with the first two as bad losses and stealing maybe 1-2 other than KU which he almost got.

The roster was in a bad spot. Really 3-4 OL you could count on after injury retirements and only 3 after Wilson left and one played the last part of the year at LT on a bad ankle. True freshmen and tight ends aren't people you ever want to play as key OL. The remaining OL simply weren't as good and so here comes playing guys who aren't ready.

This shuffling removes all but one good TE and a converted hoops forward and a true freshman lineman (Saulin who later got hurt) from the TE position which limits how effectively going into bigger sets can help pass pro and scheme help for the ol.

Defensively injury took away the best 2 pass rushers including one of Baylor's most productive ever.

He inherited some good receivers like Mims, Platt (injured 30% into the season), Atkinson, Stricklin, and a decent QB in Smith who's ok but not the world beater the post-Boise hype made him out to be. At tailback he inherited Hasty, a decent but not terribly quick big back in Williams, and that's it. KD, Shock, Russell, Fuller, Desouza, Thrift, S Muir, Pelzel, and Ish weren't walking back through that door.

Defensively I would say Johnston, Young, Roy, Lewis, Roberts, a couple of the corners, and maybe Miller at Safety were either athletically what you want or good enough of a gamer (TY) to overcome it and fit the position.

Remember 2016 to 2017 saw Levels, Blanchard, Stewart, Reid, Reid's backup, Aaivion Edwards, R Davis, KJ Smith (injury), and X Jones (inj) all no longer available. That's a lot to replace and it was going to be felt.

Quote:

He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football


This part is bs. You don't intentionally fail to manage expectations. Get real. You don't make your seat intentionally hot and make recruiting that much tougher walking into a scandal.

So just repeating so it doesn't get lost in the long reply- who did you want him to play that he didn't?
Aliceinbubbleland
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S11,

Are you Bradshaw? If so were you related to Charlie Bradshaw?
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S11
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

S11,

Are you Bradshaw? If so were you related to Charlie Bradshaw?


No relation
Baylorbear88
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S11 said:

Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

BigOleBear said:

I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.


The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.


He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players.

The roster was in a bad spot. Really 3-4 OL you could count on after injury retirements and only 3 after Wilson left. True freshmen and tight ends aren't people you ever want to play as key OL. The remaining OL simply weren't as good and so here comes playing guys who aren't ready.
This. IIRC, we had a first and goal against TECH on the 1 yard line and couldn't score behind our OL. Tech... let that sink in.
xiledinok
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1 NFL player drafted over two seasons and he was a transfer.
Rhule had marginal Power 5 upperclassmen talent wise. Don't know many guys that would want the hand he was dealt from the start.
trey3216
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Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

BigOleBear said:

I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.


The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.


He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players. He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football but whatever.

He needs to win something that matters to be a "good" hire and that should be our expectation of every coach. If they can't finish in the top 10, win the conference, or some equivalent measure of success then we need to look at why and fix the problem. It could be the coach, facilities, or something else. So far he's won nothing but he's only had 2 seasons so that doesn't really matter yet. The jury should be out until he wins big or doesn't after 4-5 years or fails so badly before then the future result is clear and we cut ties early. As I stated earlier in the thread year 3 just began at give him time.

I don't see the second part happening so let's hope the first part happens! I'm ready for some good years again.




In 2017 there was very little talent left. Also, a lot of players did not fit his system and there were upper class men not buying in. Rhule had a 3-4 win team based on talent and only won one game in 2017. Rhule's coaching deficits the first year cost Baylor 2-3 wins at most, but now things are in place. As he said, trust the process. Guess you don't.



So the talent just vaporized when one class out of 4+ graduated? You realize how crazy that sounds, right? Most of that team won the only 7 games they were coached the year before and had won conference titles.

You're correct they didn't all fit into his system but that's also on Rhule as he decided to do what he wanted and presumably knew the transition would be rough. His choice as he's the coach but he chose the path that took us that direction.
Of course it's the choice he made. He didn't come here to run someone else's program. He came here to build his own program from the ground up. Some kids weren't buying into it, so he didn't play them or they left. Of course we took it on the chin. But that's a program in transition, it happens all the time.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
BearlyBeloved
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What Teaff and Briles proved (and I think Rhule is also proving) is that you CAN recruit successfully at Baylor. Add Scott Drew and Kim Mulkey to that list.

The SEC and others may not believe it, but the mothers of recruits LIKE for their kids to attend a school with a religious focus (and never mind its imperfections).

When you can do that within a Power 5 conference and in the midst of the Texas recruiting heartland, the only ingredient to add is a winning tradition, which is growing.
S11
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Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

Krieg said:

SATXBear said:

BigOleBear said:

I admit I thought CMR was a complete mistake after the early losses, given so much left over talent from CAB era. Seemed he fiddled around with the QB decision when Baylor Nation wanted Zack Smith to start, coming off the bowl win. Bone head calls and not using returning players didn't help his cause and alienated the fan base.

Now here we are with a rapidly improving and very competitive team again. I think even with 9-10 wins there'll always be a number of people, me included, that prefer scoring in 4-5 plays versus a slow methodical pro style offense. I miss the cocky swagger at mid field before kickoff. But I do see a coach that players respect and have bought into his process and for that I'm excited about the future.

Will Baylor fans continue to mention the incredible CAB days, absolutely. But I plan to move ahead never forgetting that recent span of years beating the cows and wagon drivers. Moving on and cheering the Bears but never forgetting our recent successes and celebrating those players and coaches that put Baylor on the map.


The only fans that were upset about Briles' players not getting PT were the fans who could not move on from the past. Most fans realized Rhule was playing his best team in a difficult situation while planning for the future.


He was playing the best team for 2019 or 2020 but not the best team for 2016. If you disagree with that you need help because we wemt 1-11 with a team that literally everyone knows was a lot better than that and played a bunch of freshman in front of older players. He did the same at Temple. He wasn't trying to win as many games as possible that year but was playing for the future and somehow resetting expectations to the point where he got praised for equaling Grobe's results in his second year. I still don't understand how anyone let's that second part happen, and I'll forever be annoyed that he wasted a year of Baylor football but whatever.

He needs to win something that matters to be a "good" hire and that should be our expectation of every coach. If they can't finish in the top 10, win the conference, or some equivalent measure of success then we need to look at why and fix the problem. It could be the coach, facilities, or something else. So far he's won nothing but he's only had 2 seasons so that doesn't really matter yet. The jury should be out until he wins big or doesn't after 4-5 years or fails so badly before then the future result is clear and we cut ties early. As I stated earlier in the thread year 3 just began at give him time.

I don't see the second part happening so let's hope the first part happens! I'm ready for some good years again.




In 2017 there was very little talent left. Also, a lot of players did not fit his system and there were upper class men not buying in. Rhule had a 3-4 win team based on talent and only won one game in 2017. Rhule's coaching deficits the first year cost Baylor 2-3 wins at most, but now things are in place. As he said, trust the process. Guess you don't.



So the talent just vaporized when one class out of 4+ graduated? You realize how crazy that sounds, right? Most of that team won the only 7 games they were coached the year before and had won conference titles.


Evaporated? No.
Graduate and get injured? Much closer to the truth

The talent in 2016 was really centered around a few guys and a bunch of role players arranged in support roles with them.

After injury retirements here are the major 2017 contributors he didn't get to use.

Seth Russell (responsible for all but 1 win)
Shock Linwood (Goodbye ISU Win)
KD Cannon (Goodbye Boise Win)
Ish Zamora (OSU game sticks out here)
LT Dom Desouza (Huge Loss)
C draft pick Kyle Fuller (Giant Loss)
Two backup centers in Muir and Thrift (Depth destroyed)
Ish Wilson after 4 games

KJ Smith after one game (Big Loss of production with versatility to slide inside)
X Jones after three games (Pass rush hit)
Travon Blanchard (Best nickel defender in CAB era. Massive loss)
Pat Levels (Safety/Nickel/Corner who would have started. Huge impact in OkSt Win)
Aiivion Edwards (Speedy Lb)
Raquaan Davis (Decent Lb with experience)
Orion Stewart (Second best safety in CAB era)
Ryan Reid (Better than the guys left over)
Tion Wright (depth)

2016 isn't winning more than 4 games without that core.
BaylorOkie
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I'm glad Morris was not hired. I have mentioned before that he was my neighbor when he lived in Tulsa for that season. Came home from practice one night and talked with some guys in the neighborhood for a few minutes. His impression of Baylor did not seem to be very good. Quite condescending.
EatMoreSalmon
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Concerned about both lines.

Saw too much penetration by SFA defense.

DL was better, but we all know depth is an issue.

Someone (like S11, not like x) tell me we are better in the future trenches and I might feel more optimistic about championship potential.
xiledinok
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Concerned about both lines.

Saw too much penetration by SFA defense.

DL was better, but we all know depth is an issue.

Someone (like S11, not like x) tell me we are better in the future trenches and I might feel more optimistic about championship potential.
If you paid attention, you wouldn't need someone to tell you. No one in college football would have paid to see the leftovers but .
S11
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Concerned about both lines.

Saw too much penetration by SFA defense.

DL was better, but we all know depth is an issue.

Someone (like S11, not like x) tell me we are better in the future trenches and I might feel more optimistic about championship potential.


Look at the OL. Other than Tecklenburg and Fruhmorgen everyone returns and they are attempting to RS both Valentin and Newman. That's a lot of high upside upperclassmen coming up. May not be an individually talented as OU's line but neither were the 2011-2015 lines either and they were more than capable.

If guys keep developing we will have a chance to run at the B12 title in upcoming years.

DL is less Deep this year but has a lot of young talent coming up. I expect to be fine their next year and after.
Bear8084
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S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.
Dman
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SATXBear said:

Dman said:

SATXBear said:

chorne68 said:

I was very impressed with how he came in and hired good coaches, including the Texas high school coaches. They recruited very well and I was very impressed by the athletes that came to Baylor. He said all the right things and was a great public speaker. Then...year number one started. He was a terrible coach that year. No way with the athletes on the team they should have lost 11 games to the poor competition. I did not think he could turn it around. They made progress in year two so I thought maybe he would be ok. I am now on the CMR team and think he can build a winning program. He has been good for Baylor.


Your mistake is thinking there was talent. There was no talent. The cupboard was empty.


We are fans. We give opinions. You state yours as a fact when claiming his is a "mistake", but it is simply an opinion. This is not an off base opinion...it's just an opinion difference than yours. Rhule is a big boy, even he said he had more talent than 1 win and should have done better. That's why many respected him. He's not his own sunshine pumper. This post represents many fans transitional mind set from doubt to support and thoughts on Rhule.


Why are you stalking me?
Why so sensitive? ;-)
S11
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Bear8084 said:

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.


He's hired: "We might be able to be a bowl team again in 17'"

Then KD and Ish are gone: "It's gonna be tough but doable"

Then all the OL retirements: "It's looking bad"

The losing Blanchard, Wilson, Solomon, Platt, Jones, KJ, and Blake:
"Oh come on!!!!"

Then losing even more to injury including TY: "Seriously?!?!? Come on!!!"
PartyBear
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BaylorOkie said:

I'm glad Morris was not hired. I have mentioned before that he was my neighbor when he lived in Tulsa for that season. Came home from practice one night and talked with some guys in the neighborhood for a few minutes. His impression of Baylor did not seem to be very good. Quite condescending.
To be fair that would have been in 2010 and depending on the time of year this occurred, Baylor had not been to a bowl in 15 years and had been just extremely bad for the previous 12 seasons. This decade of Baylor's changed image had not really started yet.
Stan Mikita
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I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).
Dman
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Stan Mikita said:

I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).


Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.
MilliVanilli
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BaylorOkie said:

I'm glad Morris was not hired. I have mentioned before that he was my neighbor when he lived in Tulsa for that season. Came home from practice one night and talked with some guys in the neighborhood for a few minutes. His impression of Baylor did not seem to be very good. Quite condescending.
Sounds like sour grapes from being snubbed or his inner Aggy came to the surface.
MilliVanilli
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Dman said:

Stan Mikita said:

I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).


Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.
No coach is going to call his team losers and say they can't do better.

1-11 or 3-9, they were bad and not going to a bowl.
Krieg
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He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.

People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.

In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.

Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015, but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me. We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.
MilliVanilli
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Bear8084 said:

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.
Yep, was wishful thinking....and an over valuation of their opinion of how good the team had been in 2016 at that.

Krieg
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Dman said:

Stan Mikita said:

I feel like we are dancing around the obvious here. Art Briles was fired in May 2016. We lost a recruiting class. Jarrett Stidham transferred. The remaining players were lumped into media reports of alleged heinous crimes with no details or clarification of offenders. We saw some Friday afternoon media dumps from Baylor administrators once we got to 6-0 and Patty Crawford abruptly quit as the Baylor Title IX chief. The remaining Baylor players likely thought the environment was incredibly toxic. Some players quit. No coach at Baylor was actively recruiting anybody for about 7 months in 2016, and all the 2015-2016 work for the 2017 class disappeared. Did anybody really think that an entire lame duck coaching staff would put any effort into recruiting anybody to a program that would not have the same coaches or likely the same system the next year? There were no blue chip recruits ready to play in 2017, but they were played immediately because we didn't have a choice.

2016 recruiting class dump + last minute 2017 recruiting class scramble + toxic environment + transfers/retirements + new system = 1-11 season with home losses to Liberty and UTSA. You can inject one of these factors into a program and they might get by with a decent record. When you put it all together at once you get a program that shouldn't be playing at the FBS level for a year (Liberty went 5-5 against FCS teams that year......and they beat us at home).


Rhule himself admits, despite all that, they were better than 1-11. No one is saying he should have been a 6 or 7 win team...but not 1-11

Really not sure why we are debating this. He's improved. He's moved on. I'm much more interested in this year.


Because anything but pure praise offends the flock I guess. I don't understand the resistance to the obvious truth that 1-11 is a failure.

Also, to those saying 8 wins is a good season in the medium to long term uh, no thanks. We've had better. Rhule and any future coaches should be expected to do better as well. When we start expecting that is up for debate, but 8 wins isn't a good benchmark for overall success. 10? Yes. 8? That better be a down year.

Expect excellence or you'll never get it.
Krieg
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Bear8084 said:

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.



At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.
S11
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Staff
Krieg said:

He started Anu Solomon over Zach Smith, a QB that nearly beat OU a few games later while running a hurry up, no huddle spread attack for one game.


1- Anu got concussed against UTSA and had to retire. Unfair to judge him on that game given the impact of that and he got UofArizona to a Fiesta bowl. If he won the job in practice he won the job.

2- OU was the worst defense in the Big 12 that year. Worst Yards per Drive against common foes. If Smith was so unstoppable how come we didn't see it again? Probably says more about OU than ZS.

3- They used spread tactics in other games as well.

Quote:

People think these guys didn't have talent because they won a single game that year but that's not the reality. Their talent might not have fit what Rhule wanted to run but they had talent to run something successfully and win a lot more than 1 game, as you admitted as well.


4- Two more games maybe stretching for an upset maybe two isn't a lot more. Certainly not a dramatic amount of talent.

Quote:

In the end we'll never know how good they were or weren't because they were recruited to do one thing and then asked to do something else. It is what it is.

If Briles had stayed we'd be saying they had a ton of talent as they'd have played in a system they were chosen to run. Are we pretending he didn't know how to spot talent now? That's absurd.


5- If CAB had stayed the roster is likely MUCH better due to recruiting classes and not losing Autry. Huge difference there.

6- Give Briles the 2017 guys Rhule had after departures and retirements. What you'd see is the production would have been like 2009's terrible output.

Quote:

Clearly we had worse talent than in 2015,

7- 2015 was arguably the top roster in the entire CAB tenure. You must mean 2016 which was a steep dropoff from 15

Quote:

but as you said 3-5 wins was reasonable. I'd argue sightly more but regardless it was a massive coaching failure in year 1. Why that gets pushback is astounding to me.

We lost to an FCS team for the only time in our history and followed that up by losing to a 2nd team that had never beaten a P5 school. There's no other way to look at that season than it being a coaching failure. Rhule can have a failure in that season and not be a failure overall. It's ok to admit as much.


8- What other games are reasonable with basically no OL and losing almost every major 2016 contributor? In hindsight do you think that group is a lock for a bowl with different coaching? I'm calling bs on that.

9- Liberty And UTSA werent reasonable losses. First one was backup secondary repeatedly screwing up (9 players in the back five positions were out) and UTSA was a solid but not good G5 that we should have beaten and probably beat if they correctly diagnose Anu's injury. Remember they had a few really good players on D including a first round DE that wreak havoc on a bad OL.

10- There's no pushback on saying we should have won the first two.

11- The pushback is on thinking that shell of a roster was going bowling or had any expectation to. Big 12 + Duke wasn't going to give many assured wins.

12- Look at the roster as if you are an opponent scheming against them:

- Bad OL outside of RG and RT.
- Average DL but not great in pass rush
- Two good LBs
- Best CBs were a recently converted WR and a true freshman
- Safeties outside of Chris Miller were very slow and all but Hall weren't big.
- No capable coverage options at nickel that also are run capable. Down from two in 2016
- Receivers are good but lost Platt, Holmes, Sneed throughout the year.
- QB was a true freshman Brewer, true Soph pocket passer who was up and down in 2016, and Solomon.
- TE was basically Fuerbacher and a hoops player barely learning the position.

It's much worse than you want to admit. CAB's Offense relies on the run. 280 pound converted TEs and true freshmen that weren't ready wouldn't support that. Th only year remotely in range of this roster was 2009 after injuries piled up. Outside of one game that offense got slapped around.
RegentCoverup
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Right now, for any coach in the league, it's a game of beating the two 'anointed' benchmark teams, UT or OU.
And I think it will always be that way. And I say 'anointed' because the league is sort of pushing them for wider national playoff aspirations.

So you're payout options are sorta like this.

Payout #1: Lose to Both Texas/OU
Payout #2: Lose to Texas/Beat OU
Payout #3: Lose to OU/Beat Texas
Payout #4: Beat Texas/OU

Payout 1 gets you the standard contract you have now and when that ends, you look for another job and/or are fired.

Payout 2: Means you get a small raise and a pat on the head and allegations of dirty recruiting by the league.

Payout 3: Is either Payout 2 or a small raise and UT tries to hire you away.

Payout 4: Gets you a big raise, but the league coaches conspire with the media to get you fired.

One True Champion, baby.
Bear8084
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Krieg said:

Bear8084 said:

S11 bringing some straight facts again.

Those thinking that he was just stepping in to a fully loaded team from '16 have blinders on. CMR stepped into quite a rebuilding project. Yes, he wants to do things his way, but he didn't purposely tank a season just to rebuild his way. The team was still rocked by the scandal and as S11 mentioned, graduations and injuries. The program needed to be rebuilt physically and emotionally, and CMR seems to be doing that.

Of course there is still a long way to go, and much improvements to made, but I think CMR has this program on the right track and we are lucky to have him. Sic 'Em.



At least respond to what I wrote instead of what you imagined I wrote. Nobody said we were "fullt loaded." Everyone says we were better than our record.

I also never said he tanked the season. S11 implied I said it but I didn't. I said he didn't try to maximize wins in his first year but rather in this year and next year. He seemed to feel implementing his own stuff 100% from the start was better long term than a slower transition that would've won more games in year 1. He was ok with losing more up front, if it happened, to win more later. Now we get to see if it worked.

He didn't try to lose games, he just was ok with it for his vision of the future. There's a massive difference between the two. Let's hope it works.


That's pretty much implying he tanked the season because he didn't want to change to the magical spread offense (which we have been running btw) and ignoring how bad off the team really was in '17 and really, in '16 as Milli brought up. No coach is happy with losing or ok with it, especially having the season that they did. CMR even said in interviews it was hard on him, the staff, and the already beleaguered players. As S11 has posted over and over again, the program was not in a good place when CMR took over. They weren't going to win much past 3 if they were to steal a few that season.
Krieg
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You're putting a lot of words in my mouth there and I'm going to ignore most of it as I don't care enough. I'll add, though, that we had a ridiculous amount of practice injuries that year. I hold the staff responsible for that increase. We can't know why it happened but it happened on their watch so it's on them. Consequently arguing that things like a bunch of backups in the secondary in the FIRST GAME is an excuse for failure doesn't fly with me. We seem to have fixed whatever was going on there but that first year wasn't normal.

I agree the talent would've been a lot better had Briles not been fired and that's not Rhule's fault. I do think Briles is a better coach and that likely wins us an extra game with the same talent but we'll never know because they can't have the same talent.

We seem to agree Rhule failed in year one and we both hope he succeeds from here. I'm not really sure why this argument is happening nor on what grounds it's happening. We might not agree on every single detail but who cares? Let's have an actual good year this year. Not that we can affect it in any meaningful way, but we can pretend we matter I guess.
 
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