Stefano DiMera said:

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Have you seen the emails?! He said a black man had lips as huge as tires...he called the commissioner a gay slur for forcing Jeff Fisher to draft a ***(gay slur).

He made sexist comments about female referres...I mean he hit every group except the Asians and I'm sure there are some emails somewhere on them

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Was Jeff Fisher forced to draft someone just because they were gay? Wouldn't that be wrong? I guess we don't investigate actions...just words.

bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

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It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

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Just to be clear, I wasn't defending him.

The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

---

It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

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Because we have all said stupid stuff in the past and grown. It's called forgiveness.

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We don't all have seven years worth of documented bigotry and hate at an age and in an era where we should know such behavior is wrong/socially unacceptable.

I'm all for allowing others the grace to grow and change. But what evidence has Jon Gruden shown that he's grown at all since then? Just last week he was trying to gaslight people into believing he didn't say the racist things that were literally spelled out in front of them.

Jon Gruden's a 58-year-old man. He's not a teenager. He's had plenty of time and opportunity to grow without accountability. Let's see if he actually does now that he's facing some. I sincerely hope he does. But the burden's on him, not on everyone else to forgive him for behavior he's yet to even acknowledge, much less shown any real contrition for.

Reverend said:

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The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

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Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

Jon Gruden told us exactly how he feels about Black people, gays and women. We don't have to assume. I don't understand why some of you refuse to take these people at their own words and insist on offering them benefit of doubt they haven't remotely earned.

The only thing I can figure is that some of you identify with these thoughts and don't like seeing others held accountable for beliefs you share -- or at least shared at some point.

You'd purge a lot of people if you could.....regardless of what they actually did.

Reverend said:

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You'd purge a lot of people if you could.....regardless of what they actually did.

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The leap required to warp my wish for people (particularly professed Christians and those in leadership positions) to treat others with love and respect into a desire to "purge a lot of people" would win you gold at most Olympics.

Just a nutty statement by a silly person. When you want to have a serious conversation free of nonsensical accusations, let me know.

bear2be2 said:

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fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

---

It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

---

Because we have all said stupid stuff in the past and grown. It's called forgiveness.

---

We don't all have seven years worth of documented bigotry and hate at an age and in an era where we should know such behavior is wrong/socially unacceptable.

I'm all for allowing others the grace to grow and change. But what evidence has Jon Gruden shown that he's grown at all since then? Just last week he was trying to gaslight people into believing he didn't say the racist things that were literally spelled out in front of them.

Jon Gruden's a 58-year-old man. He's not a teenager. He's had plenty of time and opportunity to grow without accountability. Let's see if he actually does now that he's facing some. I sincerely hope he does. But the burden's on him, not on everyone else to forgive him for behavior he's yet to even acknowledge, much less shown any real contrition for.

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He apologized. Maybe if we weren't offended by everything , we could get over being offended by everything.

I'm glad we've found the person to cast the first stone...... unless you are also guilty of the same things you condemn. You are the silly one.

Edit: I'm talking to bear2be2. Forgot to post as a reply.

bear2be2 said:

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Reverend said:

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The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

---

Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

Jon Gruden told us exactly how he feels about Black people, gays and women. We don't have to assume. I don't understand why some of you refuse to take these people at their own words and insist on offering them benefit of doubt they haven't remotely earned.

The only thing I can figure is that some of you identify with these thoughts and don't like seeing others held accountable for beliefs you share -- or at least shared at some point.

---

People say unfortunate things out of anger. Last summer there were several Democrats calling for harrassment...did they mean it? Trump called for people to peacefully march...did he mean it?

bear2be2 said:

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fadskier said:

---

bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

---

It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

---

Because we have all said stupid stuff in the past and grown. It's called forgiveness.

---

We don't all have seven years worth of documented bigotry and hate at an age and in an era where we should know such behavior is wrong/socially unacceptable.

I'm all for allowing others the grace to grow and change. But what evidence has Jon Gruden shown that he's grown at all since then? Just last week he was trying to gaslight people into believing he didn't say the racist things that were literally spelled out in front of them.

Jon Gruden's a 58-year-old man. He's not a teenager. He's had plenty of time and opportunity to grow without accountability. Let's see if he actually does now that he's facing some. I sincerely hope he does. But the burden's on him, not on everyone else to forgive him for behavior he's yet to even acknowledge, much less shown any real contrition for.

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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/raiders-coach-jon-gruden-apologizes-after-racist-comments-surface-about-n1281162

fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

---

It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

---

Because we have all said stupid stuff in the past and grown. It's called forgiveness.

---

We don't all have seven years worth of documented bigotry and hate at an age and in an era where we should know such behavior is wrong/socially unacceptable.

I'm all for allowing others the grace to grow and change. But what evidence has Jon Gruden shown that he's grown at all since then? Just last week he was trying to gaslight people into believing he didn't say the racist things that were literally spelled out in front of them.

Jon Gruden's a 58-year-old man. He's not a teenager. He's had plenty of time and opportunity to grow without accountability. Let's see if he actually does now that he's facing some. I sincerely hope he does. But the burden's on him, not on everyone else to forgive him for behavior he's yet to even acknowledge, much less shown any real contrition for.

---

He apologized. Maybe if we weren't offended by everything , we could get over being offended by everything.

---

What specifically did he apologize for? In what areas, based on his words, can we expect improvement from him in the future?

So we shouldn't believe that the bigoted words Gruden used over a span of seven years reflect who he is as a person, but we should accept a forced non-apology apology at face value?

It seems some you just want to be able to say whatever you want without fear of consequence. And seeing others held accountable for opinions you share -- or at least sympathize with -- threatens that.

fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Reverend said:

---

The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

---

Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

Jon Gruden told us exactly how he feels about Black people, gays and women. We don't have to assume. I don't understand why some of you refuse to take these people at their own words and insist on offering them benefit of doubt they haven't remotely earned.

The only thing I can figure is that some of you identify with these thoughts and don't like seeing others held accountable for beliefs you share -- or at least shared at some point.

---

People say unfortunate things out of anger. Last summer there were several Democrats calling for harrassment...did they mean it? Trump called for people to peacefully march...did he mean it?

---

I'm not going to defend the stupid **** politicians on either side of the aisle say or do. They all deserve accountability too.

But there's a massive difference between impulsively saying things out of anger and hitting send on seven years worth of vile emails. If this is what Gruden allows to be sent out in his name with a filter, there's no telling what kinds of things he's saying in private.

Russell Gym said:

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bear2be2 said:

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historian said:

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A lot depends on how one defines racist, homophobic, or misogynistic. A lot of things given those labels or nothing of the kind because of political correctness & cancel culture. All too often, people's careers are destroyed because they say (text, email, etc) something someone disagrees with even if it is totally honest. Snowflakes can become bullies.

---

It doesn't sound like this was particularly ambiguous. I'm not sure why some are so quick to defend Gruden here.

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Unfortunately, it's all too predictable in this forum.

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Probably would be more so on the R&P forum.

Bear2be2 is now replying to himself. His perfection is amazing. I'll bet he's never even looked at topless pictures.

Reverend said:

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Bear2be2 is now replying to himself. His perfection is amazing. I'll bet he's never even looked at topless pictures.

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I'm not perfect at all. Far from it. But I do try to treat others how I'd like to be treated. And on the occasions I fall short of that goal, and my words or actions hurt or offend someone else, I don't duck accountability, whine or make excuses. I take responsibility, accept the consequences and try to make amends as best I can.

I don't hold anyone else to a standard I wouldn't accept for myself.

Adam Schefter is now under fire for sending an article to Washington executives before he sent it in to ESPN. Lots of people running scared over these Redskins emails. https://t.co/kIv7EG7GEd

— Clay Travis (@ClayTravis) October 13, 2021

ESPN's Adam Schefter sought feedback from former Washington Redskins president Bruce Allen a soon-to-be posted story, addressing him as “Mr. Editor” as part of a legal filing that ended up exposing Jon Gruden @nathanfenno and @LATimesfarmer report https://t.co/3UCjCforui

— Dan Woike (@DanWoikeSports) October 13, 2021

Gruden is an idiot. His own actions led to his demise.

boognish_bear said:

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Adam Schefter is now under fire for sending an article to Washington executives before he sent it in to ESPN. Lots of people running scared over these Redskins emails. https://t.co/kIv7EG7GEd

— Clay Travis (@ClayTravis) October 13, 2021

ESPN's Adam Schefter sought feedback from former Washington Redskins president Bruce Allen a soon-to-be posted story, addressing him as “Mr. Editor” as part of a legal filing that ended up exposing Jon Gruden @nathanfenno and @LATimesfarmer report https://t.co/3UCjCforui

— Dan Woike (@DanWoikeSports) October 13, 2021

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Allowing sources to read, critique and potentially influence a story before it runs is a huge journalistic no-no. This is a credibility killer for Schefter and ESPN (as though it has any journalistic credibility to kill), if true.

Gruden quit a $10M a year job and apologized ( although not to your satisfaction).

I have no love for Gruden, but the self righteous, holier than thou, bs on here is stupid.

I'm still wondering if you've ever looked at any naked pictures ?

Reverend said:

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Gruden quit a $10M a year job and apologized ( although not to your satisfaction).

I have no love for Gruden, but the self righteous, holier than thou, bs on here is stupid.

I'm still wondering if you've ever looked at any naked pictures ?

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That's a strange thing to wonder, particularly of a 36-year-old in the internet age, but you can rest easy now knowing I have.

bear2be2 said:

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Reverend said:

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Gruden quit a $10M a year job and apologized ( although not to your satisfaction).

I have no love for Gruden, but the self righteous, holier than thou, bs on here is stupid.

I'm still wondering if you've ever looked at any naked pictures ?

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That's a strange thing to wonder, particularly of a 36-year-old in the internet age, but you can rest easy now knowing I have.

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Does that make you a misogynist?

Reverend said:

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Does that make you a misogynist?

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Do I have to fight the human urge to objectify women? Yes. Do I have a dislike or contempt for or a prejudice against women? Not at all. I've found that women are better at most things than men and think they should have more opportunities to prove that in positions of authority.

bear2be2 said:

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fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Reverend said:

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Th

---

O

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I'm not going to defend the stupid **** politicians on either side of the aisle say or do. They all deserve accountability too.

But there's a massive difference between impulsively saying things out of anger and hitting send on seven years worth of vile emails. If this is what Gruden allows to be sent out in his name with a filter, there's no telling what kinds of things he's saying in private.

---

Ive heard coaches say things that would make Gruden sound like a host of the View.

I hope the people that judge you in your life will adhere to the standard of speculation that you're suggesting above. Are you absolutely sure he's not docile, reserved and compassionate in private? Or are the facts in your judge jury scenarios dependent on something else?

The Left hasn't a morality to stand on, this is really about power and politics.

bear2be2 said:

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Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

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You don't know what is in someone's heart based upon misspoken (or emailed) words.. Only God knows what is in a person's heart.

That said, what Gruden emailed was incredibly foolish if not stupid.

bear2be2 said:

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I'm not perfect at all. Far from it. But I do try to treat others how I'd like to be treated. And on the occasions I fall short of that goal, and my words or actions hurt or offend someone else, I don't duck accountability, whine or make excuses. I take responsibility, accept the consequences and try to make amends as best I can.

I don't hold anyone else to a standard I wouldn't accept for myself.

---

That is commendable behavior we all should exercise.

Good for you. Gruden may feel the same way.

I'm sure things I've said and done may not stand up to intense scrutiny. But humility and forgiveness are good things.

TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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bear2be2 said:

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fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Reverend said:

---

The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

---

Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

Jon Gruden told us exactly how he feels about Black people, gays and women. We don't have to assume. I don't understand why some of you refuse to take these people at their own words and insist on offering them benefit of doubt they haven't remotely earned.

The only thing I can figure is that some of you identify with these thoughts and don't like seeing others held accountable for beliefs you share -- or at least shared at some point.

---

People say unfortunate things out of anger. Last summer there were several Democrats calling for harrassment...did they mean it? Trump called for people to peacefully march...did he mean it?

---

I'm not going to defend the stupid **** politicians on either side of the aisle say or do. They all deserve accountability too.

But there's a massive difference between impulsively saying things out of anger and hitting send on seven years worth of vile emails. If this is what Gruden allows to be sent out in his name with a filter, there's no telling what kinds of things he's saying in private.

---

Ive heard coaches say things that would make Gruden sound like a host of the View.

I hope the people that judge you in your life will adhere to the standard of speculation that you're suggesting above. Are you absolutely sure he's not docile, reserved and compassionate in private? Or are the facts in your judge jury scenarios dependent on something else?

The Left hasn't a morality to stand on, this is really about power and politics.

---

Speculate away. I don't talk **** in public or private about people based on their race, gender or sexuality, and frankly none of the people I associate with regularly do either.

There seems to be this perception (particularly among white boomers) that Gruden just got caught doing what we all do and saying what we all say in private. That's not true of me or most in my generation or younger. If you still think and speak that way in 2021, you're in the significant minority.

Speaking as "white boomer" it's time to let this one go. We've all had our say.

fadskier said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Reverend said:

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The thought police are out in full force. Compelling people and organizations to toe
their line. Thankfully they don't have the power to actually get into people's heads. Then we'd all be mind numbed robots.

Maybe Gruden actually acted on the thoughts and words he used and caused harm to someone. But he had an openly gay player on his team and a great majority of black players who I imagine he treated with respect. He insulted the commissioner which no one should take seriously.

Wrong thoughts usually don't result in harmful actions...... your better brain and better side usually stand in the way.

---

Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.

Jon Gruden told us exactly how he feels about Black people, gays and women. We don't have to assume. I don't understand why some of you refuse to take these people at their own words and insist on offering them benefit of doubt they haven't remotely earned.

The only thing I can figure is that some of you identify with these thoughts and don't like seeing others held accountable for beliefs you share -- or at least shared at some point.

---

People say unfortunate things out of anger. Last summer there were several Democrats calling for harrassment...did they mean it? Trump called for people to peacefully march...did he mean it?

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"Get in their face! They are not welcome here!!!" At gas station, grocery stores, etc lol

Wangchung said:

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Gruden is an idiot. His own actions led to his demise.

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Yep