Gameday Thread: #11 Baylor (22-8; 11-6) at Texas Tech (21-9; 10-7)

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

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I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

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It isn't that interesting though. This is directly correlated with their fbi investigation issues. Their hand was forced as their recruiting fell off (just recently picking back up). It's well documented.

So they didn't have to make the decision we've all been debating for so long. They were relegated to the so called sweet spot players. Third and fourth year guys who actually go on to play pro.

Point is, Self wasn't making deliberate decisions to shun top guys. They were whiffing due to off court issues.

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That trend pre-dates the FBI investigation. They've had way more developmental stars than one-and-done stars since the Wiggins/Embiid year 10 years ago. It's basically been Josh Jackson and Grady Dick since.

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Let's fact check another post of yours, using your own criteria:

2014-15: Kelly Oubre Jr.
2014-15: Cliff Alexander
2015-16: Cheick Diallo
2016-17: Josh Jackson
2022-23: Grady Dick

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

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I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

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And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

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Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

---

It isn't that interesting though. This is directly correlated with their fbi investigation issues. Their hand was forced as their recruiting fell off (just recently picking back up). It's well documented.

So they didn't have to make the decision we've all been debating for so long. They were relegated to the so called sweet spot players. Third and fourth year guys who actually go on to play pro.

Point is, Self wasn't making deliberate decisions to shun top guys. They were whiffing due to off court issues.

---

That trend pre-dates the FBI investigation. They've had way more developmental stars than one-and-done stars since the Wiggins/Embiid year 10 years ago. It's basically been Josh Jackson and Grady Dick since.

---

Let's fact check another post of yours, using your own criteria:

2014-15: Kelly Oubre Jr.
2014-15: Cliff Alexander
2015-16: Cheick Diallo
2016-17: Josh Jackson
2022-23: Grady Dick

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Oubre, Alexander and Diallo were all role players -- and mediocre ones in the case of the last two. I'm talking about impact, high-usage players. I would argue Kansas wasted their time recruiting those three, but none left major holes when they left. They're more out of the Kendall Brown mold.

But five one-and-dones in 10 years is a very low number for a program of Kansas' stature. We've had as many the last three years.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

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Exactly right. The point should be conceded and move on. What I said about Ku is documented factual data. They did not stop targeting top guys, they whiffed or failed to garner interest.

And they got top guys after Wiggins who didn't materialize to the league as quickly.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

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This would be true if we had no idea going into this process who was likely to be a one-and-done and who wasn't. That's not at all the case.

There will be some surprises both ways, but everyone on the planet knew Kendall Brown, Keyonte George and Ja'Kobe Walter would be rentals and that Edgecombe will be. Early draft projections take most of the mystery out of this process long before it starts.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

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I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

---

This would be true if we had no idea going into this process who was likely to be a one-and-done and who wasn't. That's not at all the case.

There will be some surprises both ways, but everyone on the planet knew Kendall Brown, Keyonte George and Ja'Kobe Walter would be rentals and that Edgecombe will be. Early draft projections take most of the mystery out of this process long before it starts.

---

Now, do the same for all the KU players. You're assuming that, because KU guys didn't go one-and-done, that they weren't considered rentals when KU signed them. That's what I mean.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

---

This would be true if we had no idea going into this process who was likely to be a one-and-done and who wasn't. That's not at all the case.

There will be some surprises both ways, but everyone on the planet knew Kendall Brown, Keyonte George and Ja'Kobe Walter would be rentals and that Edgecombe will be. Early draft projections take most of the mystery out of this process long before it starts.

---

Now, do the same for all the KU players. You're assuming that, because KU guys didn't go one-and-done, that they weren't considered rentals when KU signed them. That's what I mean.

---

As I said, there will be some surprises ... but guys who play to their junior and senior years of college aren't generally those guys.

As a general rule, any player playing three and four years of college ball is a fringe NBA prospect at best. There are exceptions obviously, but you're not going to find many college juniors and seniors in the first round, much less the lottery.

It's not inconceivable that the Kansas players mentioned above could have played their way into the draft earlier, but it's disingenuous to suggest we're talking about a bunch of guys who underperformed their draft projections out of high school. Guys like Agbaji and Wilson played their way into the draft, not the opposite.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

---

This would be true if we had no idea going into this process who was likely to be a one-and-done and who wasn't. That's not at all the case.

There will be some surprises both ways, but everyone on the planet knew Kendall Brown, Keyonte George and Ja'Kobe Walter would be rentals and that Edgecombe will be. Early draft projections take most of the mystery out of this process long before it starts.

---

Now, do the same for all the KU players. You're assuming that, because KU guys didn't go one-and-done, that they weren't considered rentals when KU signed them. That's what I mean.

---

As I said, there will be some surprises ... but guys who play to their junior and senior years of college aren't generally those guys.

As a general rule, any player playing three and four years of college ball is a fringe NBA prospect at best. There are exceptions obviously, but you're not going to find many college juniors and seniors in the first round, much less the lottery.

It's not inconceivable that the Kansas players mentioned above could have played their way into the draft, but it's disingenuous to suggest we're talking about a bunch of guys who underperformed their draft projections out of high school. Guys like Agbaji and Wilson played their way into the draft, not the opposite.

---

You have this interesting habit where, whenever you're asked to back with data the opinions you state as facts, you either change the subject, ignore the request completely, or zoom out and make statements so vague as to be irrefutable because they're unclear, as you did here.

Regardless, I've already allowed that your point of view is valid and rational, even if I didn't agree with it. It's an impressive display of arrogance that you won't allow for any opinion but your own.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Quinton said:

---

I'm knocking on bear2 a little bit but he would have preferred we signed Houston's best players years ago. Shead and Roberts, both mid major no name recruits at the time. Would have guaranteed us four years with them.

And I get his point and frustration but it's not so simple.

---

Shead and Roberts are just examples. Hunter Dickinson (four star) and Kevin McCullar (four star), while transfers for Kansas, were both the types of recruits I'm talking about, too.

There are a ton of really good college players nationwide who were never going to be one-and-dones. Many will never even set foot on an NBA court. We used to recruit two or three in every class, let them develop as freshman and incorporate them into experienced teams as sophomores, juniors and seniors. And we won a ton of games doing so. The last three classes, we've added one such player per year. That's not enough to develop any sort of winning core. That's why we're having to rebuild every year with freshmen and transfers.

I think it's interesting that Kansas has largely gone away from the one-and-done game. They'll recruit some here and there, like Dick last year, but their rosters the past several years have been built around experienced transfers and developmental cornerstones (Harris and Adams this year, Jalen Wilson last year, Ochai Agbaji, Christian Braun and David McCormack before that).

I think there is an increasing number of coaches who have decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze in most cases and that experience is a better predictor of success than raw freshman talent. If we continue to suffer early exits in the NCAA tournament, I think Drew will eventually come to the same conclusion.

---

That's not entirely true. They signed Elmarko Jackson, who was the #20 recruit in the country this past year, and was considered a fringe first-rounder in initial mock drafts. He just sucked ass for the majority of the season. You're allowing the ex post results to drive your opinion of the ex ante decision making.

They recruited Jackson thinking he'd be a critical piece, as evidenced by him starting their first 16 games, despite being a net negative while he was in the floor. The fact that he busted this year doesn't all the sudden make him a developmental piece, even though he might develop into something worthwhile in subsequent years.

Conversely, Johnny Furphy might end up as a first round, one-and-done pick. If I were a KU fan who hated one-and-dones, I wouldn't begrudge Self for that guy developing ahead of schedule. Just like I don't blame Drew for Sochan and Missi, who were recruited as developmental guys, developing ahead of schedule.

---

I said they've recruited some of them. But other than Dick, who was the second-best player on his team, almost none of their best players the past seven or eight years have been freshmen. They've been junior and senior led -- often with guys who had been developed in their program.

---

And we recruit one per year. We're not Kentucky or Duke, who recruit 3-4 every year. We recruit one guy consistently who will be a surefire one year player on the team. You disagree with that approach, and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view to have.

I don't fault you for your opinion. It's valid. I fault you for your flat-out refusal to acknowledge any other approach but your own as a valid way to build a championship program.

---

Kansas basically has two -- Josh Jackson and Gradey Dick -- since 2013-14. In the meantime, they've gotten two to five years out of Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, Frank Mason, Devonte' Graham, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Malik Newman, Udoka Azubuike, Legerald Vick, Devon Dotson, Ochai Agbaji, Marcus Garrrett, David McCormack, Jalen Wilson, Christian Braun, KJ Adams, Dajuan Harris, etc.

There's not a team in America that wouldn't be absolutely thrilled with Kansas' player development record the past 10 years.

---

Check the recruiting rankings of the guys you just referenced. Almost every one of them has been as highly (or higher) ranked than all but 3-4 players we've gotten over that time period. Elite talent wins in college basketball. Experience wins in college basketball. If you can get both, that's the sweet spot. That's the needle we're trying to thread. This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you insist on making it harder.

---

You're making my point. I've never said we should bring in mediocre recruits. I've said we should stop recruiting guys everyone on the planet knows is only begrudgingly making a one-year stop in college on their way to the NBA because they're forced to. There are a ton of really talented recruits who will stay in your program two to five years and develop. We built our program on them. Our recruiting shift since the title was a choice we made -- and one that, based on results, is getting increasingly difficult to justify.

---

Again, you're using ex post to justify ex ante.

---

This would be true if we had no idea going into this process who was likely to be a one-and-done and who wasn't. That's not at all the case.

There will be some surprises both ways, but everyone on the planet knew Kendall Brown, Keyonte George and Ja'Kobe Walter would be rentals and that Edgecombe will be. Early draft projections take most of the mystery out of this process long before it starts.

---

Now, do the same for all the KU players. You're assuming that, because KU guys didn't go one-and-done, that they weren't considered rentals when KU signed them. That's what I mean.

---

As I said, there will be some surprises ... but guys who play to their junior and senior years of college aren't generally those guys.

As a general rule, any player playing three and four years of college ball is a fringe NBA prospect at best. There are exceptions obviously, but you're not going to find many college juniors and seniors in the first round, much less the lottery.

It's not inconceivable that the Kansas players mentioned above could have played their way into the draft, but it's disingenuous to suggest we're talking about a bunch of guys who underperformed their draft projections out of high school. Guys like Agbaji and Wilson played their way into the draft, not the opposite.

---

You have this interesting habit where, whenever you're asked to back with data the opinions you state as facts, you either change the subject, ignore the request completely, or zoom out and make statements so vague as to be irrefutable because they're unclear, as you did here.

Regardless, I've already allowed that your point of view is valid and rational, even if I didn't agree with it. It's an impressive display of arrogance that you won't allow for any opinion but your own.

---

How have I not allowed for opposing opinions? People are free to believe whatever they want. But this is a message board, designed for the express purpose of open discussion, and I'm not going to be peer pressured into silence or points of view I don't hold.

I readily acknowledge that my opinion here is likely a minority-held one among Baylor fans -- and college basketball fans in general. But at some point, results and data are what they are.

This team will have an opportunity the next five weeks to prove me wrong. I would be surprised -- and quite pleasantly so -- if we're still playing after the Sweet 16.