After Loss Tennessee Loss, Baylor Basketball Should Consider Major Moves

This team is incredibly flawed and has a lower ceiling than the last few years. You can't mask god awful defense. Will win shootouts against good teams. Will also get our doors blown off on the nights the shots aren't falling.
You can make all the excuses you want injuries, Double OT etc but Stevie Wonder can see the flaws in this team

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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This team, if healthy, is going to shock some people. Lots of potential…It's up to the coaches to connect the dots.

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Even if healthy, this team can't defend. And it's got one point guard and two bigs on the entire roster.

We'll be lucky to match the success we've had the last two years, which was honestly fairly modest for the current expectation level of the program.

Speaking of ISU, they're looking like BU defensively this 2nd half vs Auburn

We should be playing a half court trapping zone and Wright should be starting and getting 30 plus minutes a night. You have to dance with the horses you have, not ones you want. I am very high on this teams potential.

You start Wright than you have VJ coming off the bench. They aren't moving Roach to the bench.
I do actually agree with starting Wright, the offense flows much better with him at the 1 and Roach the 2. But that's not going g to magically make us any better defensively

IowaBear said:

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You start Wright than you have VJ coming off the bench. They aren't moving Roach to the bench.
I do actually agree with starting Wright, the offense flows much better with him at the 1 and Roach the 2. But that's not going g to magically make us any better defensively

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You could theoretically move Nunn to the bench and start VJ at the three. But if we're being honest, Nunn has probably been a more consistent performer than Edgecombe has so far this season, especially in the games against real competition.

There's no probably. Nunn has been more consistent. Moving a multiple year starter (who's done nothing to lose his spot) to the bench and keeping a certified bricklayer in the starting lineup is a bad look imo. The argument would be different if VJ was playing at a higher level. But he's not.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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This team, if healthy, is going to shock some people. Lots of potential…It's up to the coaches to connect the dots.

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A lot of potential but also massive deficiencies in roster construction that means we're not beating a serious contender. This team lacks the pieces to win a natty or likely make a final four regardless of how well our current pieces execute.

The fact we just have no one to play the 4 or 3 and only one point guard is absurd roster building. Drew just messed up the roster construction this year, I'm sure the Kentucky job and rebuilding his entire staff had a lot to do with it, but so did chasing many of the the wrong types of players in the portal, I don't recall us ever going seriously after a quality wing despite knowing Bridges was gone.

Plus, it looks like the staff reconstruction didn't work, the defense and offense are objectively worse this year. That's not a chemistry issue Drew has chosen to do one year teams, that's coaches that can't get the job done in the time everyone has. He's chosen to run his program as one with teams that will only play together for one season if he's not getting assistant coaches that can coach to that then that's on him.

Nun has been the "most consistent," which is why moving him to the bench makes the most sense. Wright has to start and VJ has shown plenty of flashes that he still needs to start

I said this before on another thread, but when you have a tight 7 man rotation it doesn't matter who starts. CSD has always preferred a short rotation where the top 7 guys all play starter's minutes. EJ came off the bench on our natty team. Sochan came off the bench and was a lotto pick. Let's stop beating this dead horse already.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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Nun has been the "most consistent," which is why moving him to the bench makes the most sense. Wright has to start and VJ has shown plenty of flashes that he still needs to start

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I took a look at the stats, focusing on the 4 games against ranked opponents. Some thoughts...

• None of our guards, from a shooting perspective have been consistent to this point. Wright and Leach are doing ok with 43% and 40%, respectively. Nunn and Celestine are hitting 33%, while VJ comes in at just above 30% from the field. These numbers do not tell you everything. VJ is trending a little better since the Gonzaga debacle. He also gets to the rim and is pulling down just over 5 reb. per game (he is our second best rebounder after Omier).
• Norchad, quite simply, can play. Combined against Gonzaga, Ark, St. Johns and Tennessee, Omier averaged 19pts, 10 rebounds per game, and shot 58% from the field. In the mini blowout against Tenn, he was 8-10 from the field. Question: who do you think should be getting the ball in key games?
• Josh remains an enigma to me. He avg. about 18 minutes per game, only took 7 shots in the 4 games, with a % from the field of 100%. I know, I thought it must be a typo as well.

Seems to me, we need our guards to penetrate more, dish to our Bigs or out to an open 3 or take it to the rim. Wright and Roach are the best chance at doing that, and I think VJ can be better at it (he is also going to be a bigger threat at the rim). Jayden and Jalen I see as mostly perimeter players, who are dangerous if left open. The only way they are going to see daylight is if the opponent needs to protect the paint.

We've gotten off to incredibly slow starts vs Gonzaga, Tenn, St Johns. Which is why I think it matters who starts. We keep finding ourselves in huge early holes because we're stagnant on offense and can't defend anything. I'm not sure if he's going to make lineup changes but it sure reads as though Drew himself isn't happy at all about the performances to date.
Ball moves much better with Wright at the 1 and Roach the 2. But that's not going to magically improve our defense which I believe is sub 200 nationally in a few categories. I said it early on and I'll say it again. IMO we're going to have to win shootouts on a night to night basis. That's why I could see him tinkering the line up. Guess will see soon enough

I could see Josh O losing minutes and moving to a bench role as a true backup to Omier, and just play small ball at all times.

Wright or Celestine starting.

Man, I get that we've all been disappointed by 3 straight 2nd round exits, but it seems like it's become trendy to crap on the basketball team's chances.

I think this team has a higher ceiling than any squad we've had since 2022. People saying this is the worst team since 2019 are watching different games than I am, or I don't have a good eye for games. The results have been disappointing, but we're playing a literal murderers' row of a schedule.

After the UConn game, we'll have played 4 of what I think are the top 12 teams in the country, plus another top 25 squad. I think all the handwringing is a bit premature. We haven't even played 10 games together, and I'd rather peak in February/March than November/December, as that 2022 team did.

Mitch Henessey said:

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Man, I get that we've all been disappointed by 3 straight 2nd round exits, but it seems like it's become trendy to crap on the basketball team's chances.

I think this team has a higher ceiling than any squad we've had since 2022. People saying this is the worst team since 2019 are watching different games than I am, or I don't have a good eye for games. The results have been disappointing, but we're playing a literal murderers' row of a schedule.

After the UConn game, we'll have played 4 of what I think are the top 12 teams in the country, plus another top 25 squad. I think all the handwringing is a bit premature. We haven't even played 10 games together, and I'd rather peak in February/March than November/December, as that 2022 team did.

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Yeah you're out of touch, we have not played 3 of the top 12 teams in the country. Arkansas is also a disappointment thus far and St John's isn't a top 25 squad they're a borderline tournament team.


Our squad has major deficiencies it's not player driven because they're all bad players its player driven because they're not all the right type of players.

IvanBear said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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Man, I get that we've all been disappointed by 3 straight 2nd round exits, but it seems like it's become trendy to crap on the basketball team's chances.

I think this team has a higher ceiling than any squad we've had since 2022. People saying this is the worst team since 2019 are watching different games than I am, or I don't have a good eye for games. The results have been disappointing, but we're playing a literal murderers' row of a schedule.

After the UConn game, we'll have played 4 of what I think are the top 12 teams in the country, plus another top 25 squad. I think all the handwringing is a bit premature. We haven't even played 10 games together, and I'd rather peak in February/March than November/December, as that 2022 team did.

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Yeah you're out of touch, we have not played 3 of the top 12 teams in the country. Arkansas is also a disappointment thus far and St John's isn't a top 25 squad they're a borderline tournament team.


Our squad has major deficiencies it's not player driven because they're all bad players its player driven because they're not all the right type of players.

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I know what current rankings are. Thanks, chief.

I'm saying that by year end, those teams will be there, and on talent, they're top 12/25. Neither you nor I know the answer to that, but we'll find out in a couple of months.

Mitch Henessey said:

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IvanBear said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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Man, I get that we've all been disappointed by 3 straight 2nd round exits, but it seems like it's become trendy to crap on the basketball team's chances.

I think this team has a higher ceiling than any squad we've had since 2022. People saying this is the worst team since 2019 are watching different games than I am, or I don't have a good eye for games. The results have been disappointing, but we're playing a literal murderers' row of a schedule.

After the UConn game, we'll have played 4 of what I think are the top 12 teams in the country, plus another top 25 squad. I think all the handwringing is a bit premature. We haven't even played 10 games together, and I'd rather peak in February/March than November/December, as that 2022 team did.

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Yeah you're out of touch, we have not played 3 of the top 12 teams in the country. Arkansas is also a disappointment thus far and St John's isn't a top 25 squad they're a borderline tournament team.


Our squad has major deficiencies it's not player driven because they're all bad players its player driven because they're not all the right type of players.

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I know what current rankings are. Thanks, chief.

I'm saying that by year end, those teams will be there, and on talent, they're top 12/25. Neither you nor I know the answer to that, but we'll find out in a couple of months.

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I think you are both right. The talent is top 12 to 25, but have we just collected talent? Are the right pieces to form a team to win? I am concerned that the pieces are not there and the heart to win in the tourney is not there.

Maybe I am wrong, probably based on my Final Four brackets each year I am dead wrong. So far this team seems lost and a bit lackadaisical.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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IvanBear said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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Man, I get that we've all been disappointed by 3 straight 2nd round exits, but it seems like it's become trendy to crap on the basketball team's chances.

I think this team has a higher ceiling than any squad we've had since 2022. People saying this is the worst team since 2019 are watching different games than I am, or I don't have a good eye for games. The results have been disappointing, but we're playing a literal murderers' row of a schedule.

After the UConn game, we'll have played 4 of what I think are the top 12 teams in the country, plus another top 25 squad. I think all the handwringing is a bit premature. We haven't even played 10 games together, and I'd rather peak in February/March than November/December, as that 2022 team did.

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Yeah you're out of touch, we have not played 3 of the top 12 teams in the country. Arkansas is also a disappointment thus far and St John's isn't a top 25 squad they're a borderline tournament team.


Our squad has major deficiencies it's not player driven because they're all bad players its player driven because they're not all the right type of players.

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I know what current rankings are. Thanks, chief.

I'm saying that by year end, those teams will be there, and on talent, they're top 12/25. Neither you nor I know the answer to that, but we'll find out in a couple of months.

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I think you are both right. The talent is top 12 to 25, but have we just collected talent? Are the right pieces to form a team to win? I am concerned that the pieces are not there and the heart to win in the tourney is not there.

Maybe I am wrong, probably based on my Final Four brackets each year I am dead wrong. So far this team seems lost and a bit lackadaisical.

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It's interesting how people can watch the exact same games and come to different conclusions. Where you see a lost and a bit lackadaisical team, I see one that's starting to find its way and assemble all the pieces. I'm not saying I'm wrong and you're right, or vice versa. It's just interesting to me.

And yes, to your question, I think we just assembled talent because we had a gap. Specifically, this year's team has an Yves Missi-sized gap.

It's because some fans see the glass half empty, while others tend to see that same glass as half full. Like you, I tend to err more on the optimistic side of things. Pessimistic people tend to conceal their pessimism under the veil of realism.

Looking at our 2 blowout losses, vs. Gonzaga we were up against a top 6 team, on the road, with 8 of its returning rotation players. While we had a brand new roster playing its first game together.

Against Tennessee, we were coming off an emotional double overtime game 24 hours later playing with a 7 man rotation. We were playing on tired legs which was to be expected.

Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios. I, for one, will choose to remain patient and optimistic regarding rest of season expectations. I went into this season understanding it would take time for our brand new roster to gel especially with such a tough non-conference schedule. We obviously have things to work on especially on the defensive side of the court, but a couple tough losses don't signal to me that the sky is falling quite yet.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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It's because some fans see the glass half empty, while others tend to see that same glass as half full. Like you, I tend to err more on the optimistic side of things. Pessimistic people tend to conceal their pessimism under the veil of realism.

Looking at our 2 blowout losses, vs. Gonzaga we were up against a top 6 team, on the road, with 8 of its returning rotation players. While we had a brand new roster playing its first game together.

Against Tennessee, we were coming off an emotional double overtime game 24 hours later playing with a 7 man rotation. We were playing on tired legs which was to be expected.

Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios. I, for one, will choose to remain patient and optimistic regarding rest of season expectations. I went into this season understanding it would take time for our brand new roster to gel especially with such a tough non-conference schedule. We obviously have things to work on especially on the defensive side of the court, but a couple tough losses don't signal to me that the sky is falling quite yet.

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"Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios."

If you are talking about comparable systems where everyone has the same parts, this is not NASCAR or F1 where everyone has to build to the same rules.

Gonzaga, I get it. Tenn? That was not the same as Gonzaga. BU was a pre-season just outside the top 5. Tenn 15ish. What happened should not happen. It has nothing to do with pessimism or half-full. This was a team that was supposed to be as good as anyone in the B12 and Kansas was #1.

What we are discussing is what is this team? It sure don't look like #5-#7...

FLBear5630 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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It's because some fans see the glass half empty, while others tend to see that same glass as half full. Like you, I tend to err more on the optimistic side of things. Pessimistic people tend to conceal their pessimism under the veil of realism.

Looking at our 2 blowout losses, vs. Gonzaga we were up against a top 6 team, on the road, with 8 of its returning rotation players. While we had a brand new roster playing its first game together.

Against Tennessee, we were coming off an emotional double overtime game 24 hours later playing with a 7 man rotation. We were playing on tired legs which was to be expected.

Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios. I, for one, will choose to remain patient and optimistic regarding rest of season expectations. I went into this season understanding it would take time for our brand new roster to gel especially with such a tough non-conference schedule. We obviously have things to work on especially on the defensive side of the court, but a couple tough losses don't signal to me that the sky is falling quite yet.

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"Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios."

If you are talking about comparable systems where everyone has the same parts, this is not NASCAR or F1 where everyone has to build to the same rules.

Gonzaga, I get it. Tenn? That was not the same as Gonzaga. BU was a pre-season just outside the top 5. Tenn 15ish. What happened should not happen. It has nothing to do with pessimism or half-full. This was a team that was supposed to be as good as anyone in the B12 and Kansas was #1.

What we are discussing is what is this team? It sure don't look like #5-#7...

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Would you feel better if we were undefeated and had played TCU or Tech's schedule? We'd probably be in the top 5, have 2 more wins to our name, and still wouldn't know a damn thing about our team. I like testing ourselves early because with a new squad like we have, it will pay dividends well before adversity strikes in conference play, as I expect it will for those two teams.

Mitch Henessey said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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It's because some fans see the glass half empty, while others tend to see that same glass as half full. Like you, I tend to err more on the optimistic side of things. Pessimistic people tend to conceal their pessimism under the veil of realism.

Looking at our 2 blowout losses, vs. Gonzaga we were up against a top 6 team, on the road, with 8 of its returning rotation players. While we had a brand new roster playing its first game together.

Against Tennessee, we were coming off an emotional double overtime game 24 hours later playing with a 7 man rotation. We were playing on tired legs which was to be expected.

Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios. I, for one, will choose to remain patient and optimistic regarding rest of season expectations. I went into this season understanding it would take time for our brand new roster to gel especially with such a tough non-conference schedule. We obviously have things to work on especially on the defensive side of the court, but a couple tough losses don't signal to me that the sky is falling quite yet.

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"Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios."

If you are talking about comparable systems where everyone has the same parts, this is not NASCAR or F1 where everyone has to build to the same rules.

Gonzaga, I get it. Tenn? That was not the same as Gonzaga. BU was a pre-season just outside the top 5. Tenn 15ish. What happened should not happen. It has nothing to do with pessimism or half-full. This was a team that was supposed to be as good as anyone in the B12 and Kansas was #1.

What we are discussing is what is this team? It sure don't look like #5-#7...

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Would you feel better if we were undefeated and had played TCU or Tech's schedule? We'd probably be in the top 5, have 2 more wins to our name, and still wouldn't know a damn thing about our team. I like testing ourselves early because with a new squad like we have, it will pay dividends well before adversity strikes in conference play, as I expect it will for those two teams.

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A little, yeah.. buts it a good point. The 30+ point loss every year is getting really, really old though.

And I get it, I fully expected a loss at Gonzaga. Every team in cbb this year would have lost that game. Huge travel, hostile road game, playing at midnight, first game with new staff and players. But something more like 10 to 15.. 35+ is just ridiculous even with a newer roster. The factors were screming loss but have to stay somewhat competitive.

I see Craw's point earlier but I try to stay close to an actual realist. I've stayed optimistic on the talent the last few years. I liked the pieces. I like the pieces. I am closer to you and Craw as I still see a ton of potential in this roster. But I am very low on our defensive coaching.. so call me pessimistic there. The fundamentals or lack thereof exhibited are just unexplainable. The scheme confuses the heck out of otherwise decent players year after year. The switching has been bad for several years. The communication is terrible. Our footwork on the peremeter isn't good. 65 - 80 in defensive efficiency for the last several years is wild to me.

Again I still like the roster (missing a big but I get what happened, would have liked a run at Toppin from New Mex though), I've just lost most confidence in the defensive coaching. I also understand the point that Iowa St, Kansas, and Houston basically never lose assistants so we are in a much much tougher position related to that.

Mitch Henessey said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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It's because some fans see the glass half empty, while others tend to see that same glass as half full. Like you, I tend to err more on the optimistic side of things. Pessimistic people tend to conceal their pessimism under the veil of realism.

Looking at our 2 blowout losses, vs. Gonzaga we were up against a top 6 team, on the road, with 8 of its returning rotation players. While we had a brand new roster playing its first game together.

Against Tennessee, we were coming off an emotional double overtime game 24 hours later playing with a 7 man rotation. We were playing on tired legs which was to be expected.

Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios. I, for one, will choose to remain patient and optimistic regarding rest of season expectations. I went into this season understanding it would take time for our brand new roster to gel especially with such a tough non-conference schedule. We obviously have things to work on especially on the defensive side of the court, but a couple tough losses don't signal to me that the sky is falling quite yet.

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"Any objective and rational person would expect sub-optimal outcomes under those 2 scenarios."

If you are talking about comparable systems where everyone has the same parts, this is not NASCAR or F1 where everyone has to build to the same rules.

Gonzaga, I get it. Tenn? That was not the same as Gonzaga. BU was a pre-season just outside the top 5. Tenn 15ish. What happened should not happen. It has nothing to do with pessimism or half-full. This was a team that was supposed to be as good as anyone in the B12 and Kansas was #1.

What we are discussing is what is this team? It sure don't look like #5-#7...

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Would you feel better if we were undefeated and had played TCU or Tech's schedule? We'd probably be in the top 5, have 2 more wins to our name, and still wouldn't know a damn thing about our team. I like testing ourselves early because with a new squad like we have, it will pay dividends well before adversity strikes in conference play, as I expect it will for those two teams.

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I will give you that, now is the time to lose. These will be forgotten or at least discounted.

Question is can they put together a lineup that can compete?