For firing the best coach we ever had. What a complete dumb a$$
I want to thank Mack Rhoades
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Last: 10 min ago by BaylorBears_254
IMO when LSU opened up, she was gone....didn't matter who the AD was. Had LSU not opened up, she probably would still be here, if not retired. If it had come to money or benefits we would never be able to match LSU and we can't provide the intangibles which come with SEC affiliation. I just don't see her leaving, and she did leave on her own, for any other place besides LSU.
The question that begs an answer where no factual answer can be forthcoming is how would KM had done here once NIL came into play and the loss of UT and OU to the conference. She lost plenty of recruiting battles when those two factors were not in play. Would the NIL money have come in, perhaps, perhaps not.
The one thing NIL money (whether it was raised by her or not) could not buy was conference affiliation. Without UT or OU this conference is an after thought to the world of WBB. Even when we were winning we got snubbed with a 2-seed when we should have had a 1-seed because our SOS sucked, primarily because the conference provided no support for that. Big time recruits want to play in big games and on the biggest stages. The XII without UT and OU does not have that offering. In her last two season here, the only HS recruits we had were Andrews and J. Oliver and Kim ran Oliver off seemingly for lack of playing time. We had Dauda her last year, but she was reportedly trying to get out of her NLI. I just don't know if our status could have been maintained at the same level with the advent of NIL and the diminishing of the conference.
Baylor does not have the appeal and recruiting advantages we once had in WBB. Not having KM is part of it, but the factors involved are bigger than that and some completely out of the hands of the coach. NIL is going to have to be there and perhaps even at a premium because of our conference.
The question that begs an answer where no factual answer can be forthcoming is how would KM had done here once NIL came into play and the loss of UT and OU to the conference. She lost plenty of recruiting battles when those two factors were not in play. Would the NIL money have come in, perhaps, perhaps not.
The one thing NIL money (whether it was raised by her or not) could not buy was conference affiliation. Without UT or OU this conference is an after thought to the world of WBB. Even when we were winning we got snubbed with a 2-seed when we should have had a 1-seed because our SOS sucked, primarily because the conference provided no support for that. Big time recruits want to play in big games and on the biggest stages. The XII without UT and OU does not have that offering. In her last two season here, the only HS recruits we had were Andrews and J. Oliver and Kim ran Oliver off seemingly for lack of playing time. We had Dauda her last year, but she was reportedly trying to get out of her NLI. I just don't know if our status could have been maintained at the same level with the advent of NIL and the diminishing of the conference.
Baylor does not have the appeal and recruiting advantages we once had in WBB. Not having KM is part of it, but the factors involved are bigger than that and some completely out of the hands of the coach. NIL is going to have to be there and perhaps even at a premium because of our conference.
While I agree with your sentiment towards Mack, he did not fire CKM. He just didn't stop her from leaving for LSU.
I agree with you that Kim was likely gone as soon as LSU reached out to her. She was not fired, she left. One could argue that more could have been done to keep her -- maybe, maybe not.
As to what would have happened then -- who knows? Frankly, she was showing signs of burning out a bit, at least in my opinion, and the friction between her and Drew had increased. In an alternate timeline, if Kim had stayed, Drew may have taken that Kentucky job when offered if he stayed that long.
Going to LSU reignited a fire in Kim. She wanted to prove Baylor wrong. LSU is a great match for Kim at the right time in culture, fan support, and now in NIL opportunities. Let's face it -- far more fans attend her LSU games than ever attended the Ferrell, and the students never showed up even for Kim unless we were playing Texas.
If Kim was still motivated, she would have made NIL work at Baylor. She would not have relied on the AD or anyone else....she would have gone to Turner and other BMD's herself and gotten whatever money she thought she needed for "external NIL", and she would have had those BMD's paying out like Cody Campbell to beat the July 1 deadline last year.
All that being said, I'm content that Kim is no longer here. I support CNC, even if I do wonder if she should have called a timeout in the first quarter or maybe drawn a T early in the game to impact the officiating. Of course, I recall having the same thought about Kim in the Louisville game years ago. Scott going down was a tough break and while not impacting the outcome, it likely had a big impact in the final score.
And yes, I was in Fort Worth today cheering on the team until the end, even though there was not as much to cheer about as I would like.
As to what would have happened then -- who knows? Frankly, she was showing signs of burning out a bit, at least in my opinion, and the friction between her and Drew had increased. In an alternate timeline, if Kim had stayed, Drew may have taken that Kentucky job when offered if he stayed that long.
Going to LSU reignited a fire in Kim. She wanted to prove Baylor wrong. LSU is a great match for Kim at the right time in culture, fan support, and now in NIL opportunities. Let's face it -- far more fans attend her LSU games than ever attended the Ferrell, and the students never showed up even for Kim unless we were playing Texas.
If Kim was still motivated, she would have made NIL work at Baylor. She would not have relied on the AD or anyone else....she would have gone to Turner and other BMD's herself and gotten whatever money she thought she needed for "external NIL", and she would have had those BMD's paying out like Cody Campbell to beat the July 1 deadline last year.
All that being said, I'm content that Kim is no longer here. I support CNC, even if I do wonder if she should have called a timeout in the first quarter or maybe drawn a T early in the game to impact the officiating. Of course, I recall having the same thought about Kim in the Louisville game years ago. Scott going down was a tough break and while not impacting the outcome, it likely had a big impact in the final score.
And yes, I was in Fort Worth today cheering on the team until the end, even though there was not as much to cheer about as I would like.
Anybody see former Bear, Chelsea Whitaker's post? I 100% agree with everything she said.
What's her post say?
baylorbear33 said:
While I agree with your sentiment towards Mack, he did not fire CKM. He just didn't stop her from leaving for LSU.
He helped push her out the door.
When Mack first got her, at the first banquet to kick off the season, CKM did her bit and then made a bid for raising money for the new basketball facility. As she was coming off, Mack told her it was his job to raise money and not her's. The dye was cast.
baylorbear33 said:
While I agree with your sentiment towards Mack, he did not fire CKM. He just didn't stop her from leaving for LSU.
Completely false. If Baylor wanted her to stay and told her so, she would have stayed. Funny how many of you forget how loyal Kim is to those she gives her word to.
True Grit said:
Anybody see former Bear, Chelsea Whitaker's post? I 100% agree with everything she said.
I saw it and it was devastingly true.
Tempus Edax Rerum said:baylorbear33 said:
While I agree with your sentiment towards Mack, he did not fire CKM. He just didn't stop her from leaving for LSU.
Completely false. If Baylor wanted her to stay and told her so, she would have stayed. Funny how many of you forget how loyal Kim is to those she gives her word to.
Kim is loyal as long as everyone does what she wants. Both La Tech and Baylor have learned that if you don't do it exactly her way, that loyalty isn't the same.
BUatbirth said:IowaBear said:
What's her post say?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AF7MvgYPW/?mibextid=wwXIfr
"This game was embarassing. Effort is still free. The regression is real. No in game adjustments were made. Mediocrity apparently equals contract extensions. 6 figure players in the stands laughing and playing after losing by 35. Only 1 or maybe 2 people on that roster wouldve been allowed in the gym with us. With all the talent in Texas, theres only one Texas player on the team. Controversial AD who created all of this aint even there any more. I hope the new AD prioritizes accountability. Baylors first 30 point loss in 19 years. This aint it."
What players are making $100K or more? Taliah I guess but who else?
baylorbear33 said:
While I agree with your sentiment towards Mack, he did not fire CKM. He just didn't stop her from leaving for LSU.
She would have left antway because of the lack of support NIL wise. Period. Get over it already.
Gotta imagine DOB and Bella make close to that.
I truly don't understand those who say Mulkey was burning out towards the end of her time at Baylor. Her last 3 teams at BU were pretty phenomenal.
2021: 28-3 (Big 12 Championship, Elite Eight)
2020: 28-2 (Big 12 Championship, COVID)
2019: 37-1 (Big 12 & National Championship)
2021: 28-3 (Big 12 Championship, Elite Eight)
2020: 28-2 (Big 12 Championship, COVID)
2019: 37-1 (Big 12 & National Championship)
HoustonBear15 said:
I truly don't understand those who say Mulkey was burning out towards the end of her time at Baylor. Her last 3 teams at BU were pretty phenomenal.
2021: 28-3 (Big 12 Championship, Elite Eight)
2020: 28-2 (Big 12 Championship, COVID)
2019: 37-1 (Big 12 & National Championship)
Oh Lord, another poster posting facts !!! Don't you know that Mulkey was tired of W - L records like you just showed. She was weary of recruiting and had just flat stopped. So she went to LSU to take over a program that Fargas had run into the ground with a 9 - 13 record. Only to proceed to win 26 games the first year and win National coach of the Year. Then followed the next year with a National Championship. Her record there as of today is 133 - 20. This years team is undefeated, ranked 5th, has the #1 freshman class on the floor. LORD look at me, there I go just like you stating more facts. I apologize.
LIB,MR BEARS said:BUatbirth said:IowaBear said:
What's her post say?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AF7MvgYPW/?mibextid=wwXIfr
"This game was embarassing. Effort is still free. The regression is real. No in game adjustments were made. Mediocrity apparently equals contract extensions. 6 figure players in the stands laughing and playing after losing by 35. Only 1 or maybe 2 people on that roster wouldve been allowed in the gym with us. With all the talent in Texas, theres only one Texas player on the team. Controversial AD who created all of this aint even there any more. I hope the new AD prioritizes accountability. Baylors first 30 point loss in 19 years. This aint it."
The comments on Facebook are pretty good as well
HoustonBear15 said:
I truly don't understand those who say Mulkey was burning out towards the end of her time at Baylor. Her last 3 teams at BU were pretty phenomenal.
2021: 28-3 (Big 12 Championship, Elite Eight)
2020: 28-2 (Big 12 Championship, COVID)
2019: 37-1 (Big 12 & National Championship)
It wasn't the record, it was the way she physically looked. She wasn't as animated on the sidelines as in years past. She let UConn go on a 19 point run and never once called timeout in the EE, otherwise you might have been able to say FF or National Championship instead of Elite Eight in that 2021 data. She just didn't look the same. She looked tired.
Her last recruiting classes had a total of 3 HS players only. Of those 3, J. Oliver was essentially run off, Dauda wanted out of her NLI before KM left, leaving only Andrews. She just looked tired, and apparently my wife and I are not the only ones seeing that. Once again, it had nothing to do with wins and losses. The lady just did not look the same as the one we followed for so many years.
As for LSU, why wouldn't it rejuvenate you? Wouldn't you feel a whole lot younger going HOME and to a place that could support WBB way better than Baylor would ever be able to do, and you get pretty much whatever you want.....although now with Lane Kiffin, she may find it harder to demand top billing.
Concerning the Whitaker comments. She never once mentioned NIL limitations at Baylor or the one thing that most forget, conference affiliation. Once UT and OU left, we are for sure in a second rate conference. Some considered the XII second rate even when KM was here as in most of those years UT and OU didn't exactly light up the WBB world. We have plenty of top players put us in their last 2 or 3. The recruiting effort is there, else they wouldn't visit or keep us in their final considerations. The playing field is not level for our recruiting despite what the staff does. Baylor will have to make a choice about NIL and whether we can compete on that field or not. Unfortunately, our conference affiliation is always going to be a drawback for elite players.
The game yesterday...UT is going to make most people look inept. They have one of the best defenses in WBB you will see. The talent differential is obvious. But the top handful of teams in the country are a large gap above everyone else. UConn beat USC on USC's home floor by 28 for the most recent example prior to Sunday.
I don't think anyone here wanted to see KM leave (we still have her bobblehead on our shelf), but she did...and did so at the worst possible time...late in the cycle and leaving a roster that was full of mostly seniors to be, transfers that were coming in that as expected went elsewhere before the new staff even got settled in, and not enough underclassmen to fill a scout team because of the lack of HS recruits from the last two years.
You lose a HOF coach, you take a hit. Looking at the history of UT, ND, NC, Duke TN, and now Stanford that cannot be denied, and all of those, except UT who took almost 15+ years to recover, are still no where near what they used to be But those teams all had notice. We just got thrown under the bus with no warning at the worst possible time.
Now money has become a huge factor in the sport. It is going to be up to the administration. We either fund WBB with truly competitive NIL or we don't. If we don't, it won't matter who is coaching. And it is going to be hard to convince a great coach to come here or even for CNC to stay if the expectation demands are FFs or deep NCAA runs and the monetary resources to buy players that can reach that level are a third, half or less of what is needed.
Great post. To further emphasize the effect of NIL on our conference, in 2026 Big 12 teams got 2 of the top 40 recruits and a big 0 of the top 20 recruits !!
Also regarding Chelsea's comments about Texas recruiting, Nicki recruited 4-5 Texas recruits hard and we were in the top 2 and 3 for some of these players and at the end lost them to Tennessee, Duke and Notre Dame. Not hard to figure out why …..
Also regarding Chelsea's comments about Texas recruiting, Nicki recruited 4-5 Texas recruits hard and we were in the top 2 and 3 for some of these players and at the end lost them to Tennessee, Duke and Notre Dame. Not hard to figure out why …..
To clarify, you're believe that every recruit Bu misses out on is because of NIL? I do t think anyone should dismiss NIl as a factor. I also think it's naive to believe that every single target is going everyone besides Bu for 1 reason only.
IowaBear said:
To clarify, you're believe that every recruit Bu misses out on is because of NIL? I do t think anyone should dismiss NIl as a factor. I also think it's naive to believe that every single target is going everyone besides Bu for 1 reason only.
I actually think conference may be a bigger factor. I could see where we might could match NIL from someone (perhaps one player, but not 2 or 3) in the SEC, B1G, or even in some cases ACC, but I can see where a player looks at who they will be playing and in what arenas in the SEC, for example, and then look at who they would be playing in the half-full arena (maybe) in the XII, except for a very few cases, and the thrill is just not there to go to the XII. Then the only way I see coming here is that we have to compensate monetarily for that (paying a premium to come here) and we just can't do it....and have money left over for all our other players we have to pay.
I just can see in a recruit's mind a concern that if they come here, all the talk will be about their friends in the SEC. Perhaps I am wrong and not knowing the conversations between coaches and recruits I may be completely off, but I can certainly image such thinking in an elite recruit's mind. There will be exceptions, especially if there is some kind of personal tie between a coach and player or their family, but I certainly see a top player wanting to play in a top conference.....and we are not in one.
Not every recruit but NiL plays a role in most, Also as mentioned before by others, our conference as a whole has not helped us. Big 10 and SEC are held in higher regard by recruits. Big 12 teams got 0 top 20 recruits and only 2 top 40 recruits in 2026….. I would think main reason for this is NIL and conference affiliation.
I've long said conference affiliation is likely the biggest issue. Unfortunately the B12 lost OU and Texas right around the time they got serious about WBB again. The other factor at play is the schools added outside of Utah have flopped. BYU, Cincy, Houston, UCF are all terrible woman's basketball programs. That's hurting the B12 imo. So basically agreeing with Bear3 and Blackie above
Ill bet EVERYTHING that KM would still be pulling in Top 5 classes had she stayed. Even with NIL being low in WBB.
Her pedigree/history as a coach alone would make recruits sit and listen.
To be honest, NIL is only low because of who we have as a coach.
Why would we spend a crazy amount of money on WBB with a coach MR was willing to play the long game with
Her pedigree/history as a coach alone would make recruits sit and listen.
To be honest, NIL is only low because of who we have as a coach.
Why would we spend a crazy amount of money on WBB with a coach MR was willing to play the long game with
Not with current Baylor NIL. LSU has highest NIL in country for women's sports.
There's nothing to support she wouldn't have had Bu winning at a high level. There's multiple decades to suggest she would have kept winning at an incredibly high level.
That's not even a knock on CNC. That's just using the data we have.
That's not even a knock on CNC. That's just using the data we have.
Curious if it will continue with the AD that brought her to LSU leaving...
Bear3 said:
Not with current Baylor NIL. LSU has highest NIL in country for women's sports.
When did they start spending high in WBB? You're proving my point lol.
NIL would not be as low as it is now with Mulkey, that's just 100% facts.
BaylorBears_254 said:
Ill bet EVERYTHING that KM would still be pulling in Top 5 classes had she stayed. Even with NIL being low in WBB.
Her pedigree/history as a coach alone would make recruits sit and listen.
To be honest, NIL is only low because of who we have as a coach.
Why would we spend a crazy amount of money on WBB with a coach MR was willing to play the long game with
I think you are discounting our conference situation and letting the period up to our last NC hide the slide in recruiting that started with the 2019 class.
I did some research on ESPN's class recruiting rankings and found this concerning HS recruiting classes.
2018 class - Mulkey - 1st (called the "Fierce Five" by some)
2019 class - Mulkey - not in top 25
2020 class - Mulkey - 9th (Andrews and Gusters)
2021 class - Mulkey - not in top 25
2022 class - Collen - 9th
The large class in 2018 had some effect on how many we could take in the 2019 class, but only Smith, Egbo and Bickle of the five ever amounted to anything in a Baylor uniform. The 2020 class had Andrews and Gusters, and Gusters was a disappointment. The 2021 class was not really existent. Dauda signed, I believe, but wanted out of her NLI before Kim left and the coaching change certainly allowed her to do so.
Kim was lining up a bunch of transfers for the 21-22 season versus HS recruits but none of those transfers were all that impressive. I think we were depending on Smith, Egbo, Bickle and a returning Ursin to keep us near the top, but there wasn't much depth behind that. Then when Kim left and the transfers not unexpectantly went elsewhere before the new staff even got settled we were left with a senior-laden team (that at least got us into the tournament) with little left for the next season.
Collen did bring in a top 10 class in 2022 to keep the boat afloat. Without that class with Buggs and Bella we would have been in deep do-do. Then UT and OU were leaving, so any appeal the conference had to help attract players was gone. Now NIL has made it tougher.
I don't doubt that the likelihood is there for KM to have kept some big donors to provide external NIL, but there is not compelling evidence to believe she would be pulling in top 5 classes at Baylor today with or without competitive NIL had she stayed. The conference is just too big of an albatross and she would not be able to do anything about that. You could promise recruits that our OOC schedule would be stacked like UConn plays, but her history of OOC scheduling (even today at LSU) does not make that believable. If you were a top recruit and could receive just as much money someplace else and play an SEC, B1G, or even ACC schedule versus playing to half empty arenas in most of the XII, what choice would you make?
We were left in a tough spot with the timing, class distribution of our roster at the time and the absence of any advance warning it was going to happen. Neither the players nor the fans had anything to do with that. Compared to other programs our road hasn't taken any harder dip than what occurred at other schools that lost their HOF coach, but almost all of those schools did not find themselves in conferences that were considered second rate and at a time when money for players had to be there at a high level in order to not be at a recruiting disadvantage. And even with that only UT has gotten back to where they were and that took many, many years.
Recruits sit and listen to the staff today. That is not the problem. We are often in their final top 2 or 3. The problem is that we are no longer in a good neighborhood with respected neighbors (WBB-wise) and we don't have the funds to have to outbid everyone else plus add some more to the pot to convince those players to come and live outside the bright lights.
Sorry for the long-winded response, but I thought it necessary to provide background to my opinions as to why I respectful of your opinion cannot concur with your bet.
blackie said:BaylorBears_254 said:
Ill bet EVERYTHING that KM would still be pulling in Top 5 classes had she stayed. Even with NIL being low in WBB.
Her pedigree/history as a coach alone would make recruits sit and listen.
To be honest, NIL is only low because of who we have as a coach.
Why would we spend a crazy amount of money on WBB with a coach MR was willing to play the long game with
I think you are discounting our conference situation and letting the period up to our last NC hide the slide in recruiting that started with the 2019 class.
I did some research on ESPN's class recruiting rankings and found this concerning HS recruiting classes.
2018 class - Mulkey - 1st (called the "Fierce Five" by some)
2019 class - Mulkey - not in top 25
2020 class - Mulkey - 9th (Andrews and Gusters)
2021 class - Mulkey - not in top 25
2022 class - Collen - 9th
The large class in 2018 had some effect on how many we could take in the 2019 class, but only Smith, Egbo and Bickle of the five ever amounted to anything in a Baylor uniform. The 2020 class had Andrews and Gusters, and Gusters was a disappointment. The 2021 class was not really existent. Dauda signed, I believe, but wanted out of her NLI before Kim left and the coaching change certainly allowed her to do so.
Kim was lining up a bunch of transfers for the 21-22 season versus HS recruits but none of those transfers were all that impressive. I think we were depending on Smith, Egbo, Bickle and a returning Ursin to keep us near the top, but there wasn't much depth behind that. Then when Kim left and the transfers not unexpectantly went elsewhere before the new staff even got settled we were left with a senior-laden team (that at least got us into the tournament) with little left for the next season.
Collen did bring in a top 10 class in 2022 to keep the boat afloat. Without that class with Buggs and Bella we would have been in deep do-do. Then UT and OU were leaving, so any appeal the conference had to help attract players was gone. Now NIL has made it tougher.
I don't doubt that the likelihood is there for KM to have kept some big donors to provide external NIL, but there is not compelling evidence to believe she would be pulling in top 5 classes at Baylor today with or without competitive NIL had she stayed. The conference is just too big of an albatross and she would not be able to do anything about that. You could promise recruits that our OOC schedule would be stacked like UConn plays, but her history of OOC scheduling (even today at LSU) does not make that believable. If you were a top recruit and could receive just as much money someplace else and play an SEC, B1G, or even ACC schedule versus playing to half empty arenas in most of the XII, what choice would you make?
We were left in a tough spot with the timing, class distribution of our roster at the time and the absence of any advance warning it was going to happen. Neither the players nor the fans had anything to do with that. Compared to other programs our road hasn't taken any harder dip than what occurred at other schools that lost their HOF coach, but almost all of those schools did not find themselves in conferences that were considered second rate and at a time when money for players had to be there at a high level in order to not be at a recruiting disadvantage. And even with that only UT has gotten back to where they were and that took many, many years.
Recruits sit and listen to the staff today. That is not the problem. We are often in their final top 2 or 3. The problem is that we are no longer in a good neighborhood with respected neighbors (WBB-wise) and we don't have the funds to have to outbid everyone else plus add some more to the pot to convince those players to come and live outside the bright lights.
Sorry for the long-winded response, but I thought it necessary to provide background to my opinions as to why I respectful of your opinion cannot concur with your bet.
You gave recruiting rankings that still didn't prove the point.
When Mulkey signed that "Fav 5" class, there was no need to overly recruit the next year as we just took 5-5 star players and it was clear it was already tough to find PT for them given we already had a pretty stacked team. Along with getting top transfers.
NC getting Buggs and Bella in my opinion was due to the immediate PT that would be available. Not discrediting her, but that played a huuuge factor.
You're trying to argue that KM would have a hard time recruiting here and that's just false lol. No matter how you spin it.
This was such a random (and terrible) hire by Mack. No ties to Baylor, Texas, or even as a NCAA HC. She had two years as a HC in the WNBA with a terrible record. I still to this day don't get this move (like DA).
I don't think it's a terrible hire. Baylor could do much much worse than CNC. But she needs to start having post season success this year. There's no reason Bu shouldn't consistently be in the S16.
What a dumb comment. What's the payoff by making it.?
What's dumb about making the S16.
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