Let's be honest

22,834 Views | 183 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by bawitdaball
Delmar 2.0
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bawitdaball said:

Bear3 said:

And she went to Sweet 16 and has gone to NCAA every year and we hosted last year. And is still tied for 1st in conference. Open your eyes and look what has happened to Tennessee and Notre Dame when their HOF coaches left!!! You can also add Stanford to that list!

She achieved the Sweet 16 thanks to a draw against a Virginia Tech team that had just lost their star player for the season........That Tech loss still bugs me.

You mean the game that Baylor didn't have their star player?
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Dcheetah
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In the VTech game, the sub that came in for the big that was injured had better stats that game than the girl she replaced averaged. And while the injured big was very good Amoree(?) was the star. We also had a good game and might have won vs USC/Juju if not for a terrible Bella foul at the end of the shotclock/game.
LTBear19
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Can't let you put out incorrect info like that.

You're likely referring to the backup, Clara Strack, who was VA Tech's freshman post in that game.

She definitely had an impressive outing, giving us 18 and 10.

However, Elizabeth Kitley was VA Tech's leading scorer and rebounder that season, averaging almost 23 points/game and over 11 rebounds per contest.

So they were missing nearly 5 extra points with Kitley's absence.

We won by 3.

While Georgia Amoore was a great floor general for the Hokies, Kitley's vast improvement after a lackluster showing in the Final 4 the previous year against LSU (specifically in the 4th qtr of that game) is what made VA Tech a dangerous team.

So losing her at the end of the regular season was absolutely devastating to their postseason chances.

While her backup played admirably, there's no ignoring the impact that losing their experienced, senior post player had on VA Tech's hopes that year.

While we took advantage of the situation and did what we had to do, let's not pretend that we beat a full strength VA Tech team.

As it stands, since winning the regular season title with Kim's players in year 1, the VA Tech game is still the only 'Big Game' CNC has won in the 5 years she's been here. And even that was against a shorthanded opponent.

She's pretty much lost every other game that mattered.

So unless that changes, many will continue to question whether she has what it takes to get the job done.

She's been granted a reprieve with TCU's win over West Virginia last night, and can change the narrative by sweeping our final four contests and winning the Big XII regular season crown.

We'll see what happens.
drahthaar
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fredbear said:

We were not ready.
We had no game plan
We had zero defense
Our new star and veterans simply expected the frogs to hand them the game.
The fans did their part
The bears allowed 2 TCU stars to have record nights
We did not lose a close hard fought battle.
We laid down like a rug.


I am speechless

This, or some variant of these, seems to be a consistent observation of WBB.

Is the reason talent related or what happens on the practice court?
fredbear
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Let's be honest about the Tenn situation. They are on their third coach since Pat and have yet to find a suitable replacement. Perhaps the newest coach is She, but from the looks of things (good game against a down Texas team, but toast against SC and UConn) they will be on to a fourth coach in a couple of years. And ND really stinks right now post muffet. And the further you get away from Muffet the worse they look. No denying that a hall of fame coach is rare and replacements are hard to find. When Geno leaves the ship sinks. Not making excuses for NC, and I am as upset as anyone about the TCU stomp, but there is no plug n play replacement for our last coach unless we want to spent 4 million on Vic. And even then we need another 5 mill in NIL. I would say look at the TCU coach if I were searching, but he regularly lays eggs too. Look at their record. He has more funds and more conference losses than BU.
BUatbirth
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IowaBear
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You lost me at "a down Texas team" that team quite literally could win it all. No idea how good Kim Caldwell will be at Tennessee but let's not ignore the facts Fred. Fact 1 she took Tennessee to the S16 in year 1 in the toughest conference (by far). Fact 2 Tennessee will wind up having played the toughest schedule in the countryat seasons end and will still end up a decent seed and be playing in the rd 32 at minimum. This is an apples to oranges comparison. Baylor is a much much easier place to win right now because the league is ass. That's going to offend people. But it's the truth. The B12 sucks out loud. Winning at a high level in this league is by no means difficult. That's not a knock on CNC. Just the reality for now at least
fredbear
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Down as in short run. Have you watch Vic's postgame after his recent loss? And he let a so so Tenn team stay close to the end. A team destroyed by other top teams. One UT fan told me it is the lowest I've ever seen Vic on a team. He could win it all, but he could also flop. His stars are the most unpredictable in the game. On third coach post Pat, not exactly smooth sailing. Going to Lubbock wed. Will be cheering!
IowaBear
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sC, UCLA, UConn are the top 3 teams in the country. Those are the 3 your referencing as teams that blew out Tennessee. Those 3 are blowing 99% of the teams in the country out. That's a horrible data point. All it really does is unintentionally prove my point. As far as Vic's postgames… the dudes the biggest crybaby in college sports. I put nothing into what he says
fredbear
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Out of curiosity, is there a wbb team that had a multiple National championship coach (more than one) which had a seamless transition to the next coach made evident by the fact the new coach was in the final four more than once in the next 5 years? I say more than once, because one could reach the final four from previous coaches players fairly quickly. Perhaps it has been done. I would like to know. My guess is that it is nonexistent.
IowaBear
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Where did I say anything about a seamless transition? Moving goalposts I see. I merely pointed out how flawed the comparison is. It's an apples to oranges comparison when looking at Baylor and Tennessee. Collen is in year 5 and has the same number of S16 appearances as Caldwell who's in year2…. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make my dogging on Tennessee to weirdly prop up Collen. Collen has significantly underachieved in the post season at Baylor. Fair or foul you're judged as a coach by what you do in March. It's quite Ok to acknowledge Collen has had a good regular season run at BU while simultaneously acknowledging she's **** the bed in March. And before anyone calls me a CnC hater remember I've been as supportive as anyone of her. Still am. Another disappointment in March and I'll probably be in the opinion that she just has a very clear ceiling as a WBB coach at the college level.
fredbear
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Actually, don't disagree with what you said above.

I have been very frustrated with postseason as well.

Just saying that the transition from H of F coach is never an easy one be it Tenn, BU, or even Texas.
franke
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There really aren't that many data points of HoF coach transitions. Tara leaving Stanford and I guess Tennessee are really the only other ones besides Kim. Tennessee, even with the new regimes, has always recruited at a high level and competed for the most part in a tough conference. Stanford has been okay. As IowaBear said, we should be dominating this conference because it is the worst in P4 top to bottom.
IowaBear
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I don't disagree with the general idea of the transition from a HoF coach is incredibly difficult. In the few cases we've seen the transition be harder as those programs have taken clear steps back. As far as CNC I really have no gripes about her regular season performances (as you know the WV loss bothered me) but as a whole I think her regular seasons have been fine. It's her post seasons that bother me. I do maintain that this is an incredibly important March for CnC and the program. It really is time to solidly the program as a series 2nd weekend threat
BUVA
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Muffet leaving Notre Dame...they've not returned to previous elite status despite having a great player, Hidalgo, and until this year, Olivia Miles. They're currently not in Top 25.
Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to. ~ Mark Twain
franke
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Good call… I feel like we will see the same with UConn when Geno hangs it up. It's hard to get people to Storrs in general.
blackie
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franke said:

Good call… I feel like we will see the same with UConn when Geno hangs it up. It's hard to get people to Storrs in general.

I think you could add Sylvia Hatchell (NC), Marsha Sharpe (TT), Jody Conradt (UT -but already mentioned), and Gail Goestenkors (Duke) as having led teams to the top and when they left that team struggled, some for longer than others. If UConn doesn't take a dip when Geno leaves, I think it will be the first place not to do so.

I think we all are disappointed that we aren't winning the championships we took for granted and probably didn't appreciate enough for so long. I also think there are other factors that come into play that sheds a light on how hard it was going to be for Baylor and really makes me reluctant to try to nit-pick every decision or outcome.

Except for Baylor and now Stanford, all of those teams had this occur to them when the transfer rules were very strict. What would their fall have looked like if they had not been in a stable and respected conference and the remaining players could have just flown the coop.....and they couldn't have just brought in hired hands or even transfers that wouldn't have to sit out a year? I don't think it is a stretch to believe that their not falling further than they did was because the players on those teams still having eligibility had no real choice other than to come back for next season. The new coach had at least a few things going for them, yet they still could not come close to matching prior results. And I think, all of these schools (except perhaps Duke) at least had advance notice to be able to prepare for the change, The only school that was able to hire a HOF coach as a replacement was UT.....and we know the disaster that became with Goestenkors.

Baylor had a lot of factors going against it.
  • Timing and lack of advance notice. The recruiting cycle was pretty much over for the next season and KM had only recruited one HS recruit and the story is that she was wanting out of her NLI before Kim left. There was no preparing. This came completely out of left field. No one expected it.
  • Players could transfer at will. Fortunately we had three key players stay, despite efforts from KM and others to entice them to transfer. Had Smith, Egbo and Bickle left we were toast and we would still be toast today regardless of who we could have brought in as coach.......that would walk into the mess that was left behind. It would have essentially been a death penalty. Those players that decided to be loyal to Baylor and stay were enough to still win in a weak conference, but there wasn't much of anything behind the curtains for next season. The HS recruit that was suppose to come didn't and the transfers that Kim had lined up for the season went elsewhere before NC even had a chance to talk to them.
  • $$$. Where was money going to come from when the pay for play started that was going to back a new coach after Mulkey left. It might come eventually, but would you poney up big bucks until you saw several years of how things were going to go. I wouldn't.
  • The biggest factor........CONFERENCE. We were losing our two blue bloods. Any credibility this conference had went with them. Why would an elite recruit or transfer want to come here and play in the dim lights of the XII when they could play in the bright lights of the SEC, B1G, or ACC (at least Stanford has that in their pocket...the good it has done them as their best players flew the coop when Tara left).
Every team that has lost their HOF coach took a tumble and really none of them quickly recovered. Then throw in the factors mentioned above that Baylor faced, and I think all told we have weathered the storm as well as could be expected, and maybe better. We are still competing for a championship. albeit in a really weak conference. We would be struggling more in one of those other conferences, but if we were in one of those conferences we probably could be pulling in better players that would see us in a different light.

Baylor does have something those other HOF coach-less teams did not have. They have the capability of "buying" players....no other way to say it, but I am afraid there is a premium to be paid to get players to come to our conference and the money to overcome that obstacle may just not be there. I wish we all knew the money numbers because we are just opining in the dark, having to rely on trying to read the "tea leaves" and coming to conclusions that would seem to make sense, but without hard data.

Now, having said that, is NC the best coach we could have had? Probably not, there probably would always be someone better regardless of who we had, but how would you find that perfect coach? UT thought with Goestenkors they were set. No one will ever know. There is no way to know. What I am thankful however, is that we do have an interesting situation to watch and that we stay in the mix. History says we could be a lot worse off.
bawitdaball
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LTBear19 said:

Can't let you put out incorrect info like that.

You're likely referring to the backup, Clara Strack, who was VA Tech's freshman post in that game.

She definitely had an impressive outing, giving us 18 and 10.

However, Elizabeth Kitley was VA Tech's leading scorer and rebounder that season, averaging almost 23 points/game and over 11 rebounds per contest.

So they were missing nearly 5 extra points with Kitley's absence.

We won by 3.

While Georgia Amoore was a great floor general for the Hokies, Kitley's vast improvement after a lackluster showing in the Final 4 the previous year against LSU (specifically in the 4th qtr of that game) is what made VA Tech a dangerous team.

So losing her at the end of the regular season was absolutely devastating to their postseason chances.

While her backup played admirably, there's no ignoring the impact that losing their experienced, senior post player had on VA Tech's hopes that year.

While we took advantage of the situation and did what we had to do, let's not pretend that we beat a full strength VA Tech team.

As it stands, since winning the regular season title with Kim's players in year 1, the VA Tech game is still the only 'Big Game' CNC has won in the 5 years she's been here. And even that was against a shorthanded opponent.

She's pretty much lost every other game that mattered.

So unless that changes, many will continue to question whether she has what it takes to get the job done.

She's been granted a reprieve with TCU's win over West Virginia last night, and can change the narrative by sweeping our final four contests and winning the Big XII regular season crown.

We'll see what happens.

Thank you - I was too tired to provide the context, but you made my point perfectly.
bawitdaball
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Out of curiosity - how long do we play the "no one else has done it so CNC gets a pass" game? It's been five years. I don't want or need a National Championship. I don't even need a Final Four. I would just like to have big games where we show up and compete. I'd also like to have an offensive scheme that provides high percentage shots and caters to the personnel on the court. It is her job to find a scheme that works for the talent that she has. She can't force her scheme on others.

I've said it numerous times - none of her teams have been well disciplined. The ladies make predictable passes that flow within the offensive scheme that she has them run. They aren't adjusting, pivoting, or reading the defense. Andrews digressed back to her high school tendencies (yes, I know she was injured), it doesn't excuse the number of threes she jacked up in traffic. Blackwell and Edwards both struggled in her system after they transferred. Buggs and Bella still don't appear fully comfortable or as productive as you'd expect a senior to be.
Maybe she's built some great relationships at the high school level. If so, she hasn't shown it. The always the bridesmaid, never the bride is exhausting. I haven't seen her coach someone up yet. You can know the Xs and Os, which I truly believe she is always the most knowledge coach on the sideline every time Baylor plays, but it hasn't materialized on the court. I'm not calling for her job, I'm curious when we stop making excuses and begin to hold her accountable. We don't need a National Championship to have a fun, exciting, and competitive program. But we have got to perform. Everyone has and is dealing with NIL. Why hasn't she been able to make inroads with it in her first five years and why did she get a multi-year extension?

And on the note of Tennessee - Caldwell took over the program in 2024. She lead them to the Round of 32 in her first season and then upset Ohio State last year (on the Buckeye's home court) before losing in the Sweet 16 Round against eventual Final Foul team Texas. Note that many are murmuring that she isn't the answer in Knoxville. If Baylor played in the SEC, we likely aren't making the tournament. We've been upset twice on our home court. That manes we've been over seeded. And both teams that beat us, including Ole Miss last year, lost their very next game.

Again, we don't have to win every game to be considered successful. We should be better than we currently are.
IowaBear
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Where are you getting your Caldwell info? I'm almost positive this is only her 2nd year in Knoxville. S16 year 1 and who knows this year. Fairly positive she coached Marshall during the 23-24 season
bawitdaball
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IowaBear said:

Where are you getting your Caldwell info? I'm almost positive this is only her 2nd year in Knoxville. S16 year 1 and who knows this year. Fairly positive she coached Marshall during the 23-24 season

You are correct. The webpage I was on was showing the transition between Harper and Caldwell and I didn't catch it. I stand by the rest of what I said - but yea, I had a bonus year in there. She is currently in her second year. Mind you, I really like Caldwell and feel she has the team on the right path. It takes time to right a horribly anchored ship. They stuck with Warlick for too long. Harper might have gotten them there, but underperformed in her last few years. I think Caldwell has the energy and personality to excel at this level. She's just competing in an extremely tough conference.
BUatbirth
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I feel that CNC's "rubber meets the road" moment is now and the next three games. This team has more talent than the next three. She needs to have them prepared. In the end, these games should never be in doubt. Short of winning out heading into Ft Worth would be a huge disappointment. I'm a fan of CNC…now win…or questions will understandably get louder…IMO
blackie
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bawitdaball said:

Out of curiosity - how long do we play the "no one else has done it so CNC gets a pass" game? It's been five years. I don't want or need a National Championship. I don't even need a Final Four. I would just like to have big games where we show up and compete. I'd also like to have an offensive scheme that provides high percentage shots and caters to the personnel on the court. It is her job to find a scheme that works for the talent that she has. She can't force her scheme on others.

I've said it numerous times - none of her teams have been well disciplined. The ladies make predictable passes that flow within the offensive scheme that she has them run. They aren't adjusting, pivoting, or reading the defense. Andrews digressed back to her high school tendencies (yes, I know she was injured), it doesn't excuse the number of threes she jacked up in traffic. Blackwell and Edwards both struggled in her system after they transferred. Buggs and Bella still don't appear fully comfortable or as productive as you'd expect a senior to be.
Maybe she's built some great relationships at the high school level. If so, she hasn't shown it. The always the bridesmaid, never the bride is exhausting. I haven't seen her coach someone up yet. You can know the Xs and Os, which I truly believe she is always the most knowledge coach on the sideline every time Baylor plays, but it hasn't materialized on the court. I'm not calling for her job, I'm curious when we stop making excuses and begin to hold her accountable. We don't need a National Championship to have a fun, exciting, and competitive program. But we have got to perform. Everyone has and is dealing with NIL. Why hasn't she been able to make inroads with it in her first five years and why did she get a multi-year extension?

And on the note of Tennessee - Caldwell took over the program in 2024. She lead them to the Round of 32 in her first season and then upset Ohio State last year (on the Buckeye's home court) before losing in the Sweet 16 Round against eventual Final Foul team Texas. Note that many are murmuring that she isn't the answer in Knoxville. If Baylor played in the SEC, we likely aren't making the tournament. We've been upset twice on our home court. That manes we've been over seeded. And both teams that beat us, including Ole Miss last year, lost their very next game.

Again, we don't have to win every game to be considered successful. We should be better than we currently are.

I am certain someone else could do better, but I also believe it would be marginally better at best. I think until we will and can commit the dollars needed to buy players like Miles, Prince, Van Lith and the like or unfortunately the ones that Tech and TCU will probably buy next year, there is a ceiling that we are not going to break through. unless we get really lucky with some under the radar players. I think she will stay, but do we even have the money to keep Scott and have enough left to put a good supporting cast around her?

As I said before, I would like to see the money numbers, but we aren't going to see those as to how we compare not only with SEC / ACC / B1G, but even with TCU and likely what Tech will start throwing out. All we see is getting down to being the final 2 or 3 on elite players' lists, only to see them end up in the SEC or ACC. I just think our conference affiliation puts a lid on getting players at just the going rate, and we don't have the money to pay the premium demanded to overcome the lure that those conferences have. I don't think the "coach" whoever we might have is going to be a big enough lure alone to get them in. And then, I suspect that while not SEC level, TCU and Tech, they still have more powder than do we. That is why I would like to see the numbers. If I did, I might repeat your observations.

There are a bunch of teams in this league and even in the other P4 leagues that would love to have the teams we have been having the last few years. We are getting in players that can compete, but not quite good enough to not have the flaws that you see. We are comparing ourselves to ourselves in a time and league that no longer exists. Many of your observations are valid (and actually I had some of those while Kim was here), but I think fixing those is just dealing with symptoms that flair up and not the root disease of being one of the best in our league and everywhere else except the SEC, B1G and ACC, but our league being the red-headed stepchild that the great players see as a last resort and we don't have the wallets to grease their palms enough to come here.

Most of us have recognized the gigantic gap between the XII and the other P4s. Iowa has stated he doesn't think anyone in the XII will make the second weekend. He probably is correct barring seeding breaks, although I would give TCU a chance.

Perhaps my view of the situation is too pessimistic, but I just think the situation we find ourselves is more than who is the coach and how well or not they direct their team during the season. I think it stems from what can realistically be expected of the level of players we can bring in under the current circumstances. We could replace CNC and many fan bases would ask why? They would love to have our record. Would the reward of starting anew be greater than the risk of something worse? I certainly don't know the answer to that.

I'll rest. Already taken up people's time too much. I look at the overall picture, especially with our needs in football and see no reason how Baylor can play the money game in WBB to the level needed to bring us anywhere close to the level we took for granted 6 years ago. That is why despite the flaws, I feel we have weathered the storm fairly well with all this chaos that started when KM walked and then exacerbated by OUT leaving and pay for play going crazy. So, I don't worry about it. I will be overjoyed if we beat TCU, but despite AP's opinion, I believe we do not overall match their talent and unless something changes way more impactful than changing the person on the sidelines that is not going to change.
Bobby20
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Has put on at least 30lbs since joining Baylor. Fire her simply for that........

#MollyWasTheChoice
bawitdaball
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blackie said:

bawitdaball said:

Out of curiosity - how long do we play the "no one else has done it so CNC gets a pass" game? It's been five years. I don't want or need a National Championship. I don't even need a Final Four. I would just like to have big games where we show up and compete. I'd also like to have an offensive scheme that provides high percentage shots and caters to the personnel on the court. It is her job to find a scheme that works for the talent that she has. She can't force her scheme on others.

I've said it numerous times - none of her teams have been well disciplined. The ladies make predictable passes that flow within the offensive scheme that she has them run. They aren't adjusting, pivoting, or reading the defense. Andrews digressed back to her high school tendencies (yes, I know she was injured), it doesn't excuse the number of threes she jacked up in traffic. Blackwell and Edwards both struggled in her system after they transferred. Buggs and Bella still don't appear fully comfortable or as productive as you'd expect a senior to be.
Maybe she's built some great relationships at the high school level. If so, she hasn't shown it. The always the bridesmaid, never the bride is exhausting. I haven't seen her coach someone up yet. You can know the Xs and Os, which I truly believe she is always the most knowledge coach on the sideline every time Baylor plays, but it hasn't materialized on the court. I'm not calling for her job, I'm curious when we stop making excuses and begin to hold her accountable. We don't need a National Championship to have a fun, exciting, and competitive program. But we have got to perform. Everyone has and is dealing with NIL. Why hasn't she been able to make inroads with it in her first five years and why did she get a multi-year extension?

And on the note of Tennessee - Caldwell took over the program in 2024. She lead them to the Round of 32 in her first season and then upset Ohio State last year (on the Buckeye's home court) before losing in the Sweet 16 Round against eventual Final Foul team Texas. Note that many are murmuring that she isn't the answer in Knoxville. If Baylor played in the SEC, we likely aren't making the tournament. We've been upset twice on our home court. That manes we've been over seeded. And both teams that beat us, including Ole Miss last year, lost their very next game.

Again, we don't have to win every game to be considered successful. We should be better than we currently are.

I am certain someone else could do better, but I also believe it would be marginally better at best. I think until we will and can commit the dollars needed to buy players like Miles, Prince, Van Lith and the like or unfortunately the ones that Tech and TCU will probably buy next year, there is a ceiling that we are not going to break through. unless we get really lucky with some under the radar players. I think she will stay, but do we even have the money to keep Scott and have enough left to put a good supporting cast around her?

As I said before, I would like to see the money numbers, but we aren't going to see those as to how we compare not only with SEC / ACC / B1G, but even with TCU and likely what Tech will start throwing out. All we see is getting down to being the final 2 or 3 on elite players' lists, only to see them end up in the SEC or ACC. I just think our conference affiliation puts a lid on getting players at just the going rate, and we don't have the money to pay the premium demanded to overcome the lure that those conferences have. I don't think the "coach" whoever we might have is going to be a big enough lure alone to get them in. And then, I suspect that while not SEC level, TCU and Tech, they still have more powder than do we. That is why I would like to see the numbers. If I did, I might repeat your observations.

There are a bunch of teams in this league and even in the other P4 leagues that would love to have the teams we have been having the last few years. We are getting in players that can compete, but not quite good enough to not have the flaws that you see. We are comparing ourselves to ourselves in a time and league that no longer exists. Many of your observations are valid (and actually I had some of those while Kim was here), but I think fixing those is just dealing with symptoms that flair up and not the root disease of being one of the best in our league and everywhere else except the SEC, B1G and ACC, but our league being the red-headed stepchild that the great players see as a last resort and we don't have the wallets to grease their palms enough to come here.

Most of us have recognized the gigantic gap between the XII and the other P4s. Iowa has stated he doesn't think anyone in the XII will make the second weekend. He probably is correct barring seeding breaks, although I would give TCU a chance.

Perhaps my view of the situation is too pessimistic, but I just think the situation we find ourselves is more than who is the coach and how well or not they direct their team during the season. I think it stems from what can realistically be expected of the level of players we can bring in under the current circumstances. We could replace CNC and many fan bases would ask why? They would love to have our record. Would the reward of starting anew be greater than the risk of something worse? I certainly don't know the answer to that.

I'll rest. Already taken up people's time too much. I look at the overall picture, especially with our needs in football and see no reason how Baylor can play the money game in WBB to the level needed to bring us anywhere close to the level we took for granted 6 years ago. That is why despite the flaws, I feel we have weathered the storm fairly well with all this chaos that started when KM walked and then exacerbated by OUT leaving and pay for play going crazy. So, I don't worry about it. I will be overjoyed if we beat TCU, but despite AP's opinion, I believe we do not overall match their talent and unless something changes way more impactful than changing the person on the sidelines that is not going to change.


Honest question - has CNC done anything with the Longhorn Foundation or with donors to discuss possible NIL collaborations? Maybe she has and I just haven't seen them. But she doesn't seem to interact with fans as much as other coaches, and she doesn't appear, at least to me, who doesn't live in Waco, like she is working to drum up opportunities. If that were a real problem, you'd think she, or someone on her staff, would be working to improve that part of her program.
BUatbirth
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Good question. That has been speculated on before. I'm inclined to think that "arm twisting" for money isn't her thing. She is very personable…but those conversations are definitely out of her comfort zone, IMO
blackie
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bawitdaball said:

blackie said:

bawitdaball said:

Out of curiosity - how long do we play the "no one else has done it so CNC gets a pass" game? It's been five years. I don't want or need a National Championship. I don't even need a Final Four. I would just like to have big games where we show up and compete. I'd also like to have an offensive scheme that provides high percentage shots and caters to the personnel on the court. It is her job to find a scheme that works for the talent that she has. She can't force her scheme on others.

I've said it numerous times - none of her teams have been well disciplined. The ladies make predictable passes that flow within the offensive scheme that she has them run. They aren't adjusting, pivoting, or reading the defense. Andrews digressed back to her high school tendencies (yes, I know she was injured), it doesn't excuse the number of threes she jacked up in traffic. Blackwell and Edwards both struggled in her system after they transferred. Buggs and Bella still don't appear fully comfortable or as productive as you'd expect a senior to be.
Maybe she's built some great relationships at the high school level. If so, she hasn't shown it. The always the bridesmaid, never the bride is exhausting. I haven't seen her coach someone up yet. You can know the Xs and Os, which I truly believe she is always the most knowledge coach on the sideline every time Baylor plays, but it hasn't materialized on the court. I'm not calling for her job, I'm curious when we stop making excuses and begin to hold her accountable. We don't need a National Championship to have a fun, exciting, and competitive program. But we have got to perform. Everyone has and is dealing with NIL. Why hasn't she been able to make inroads with it in her first five years and why did she get a multi-year extension?

And on the note of Tennessee - Caldwell took over the program in 2024. She lead them to the Round of 32 in her first season and then upset Ohio State last year (on the Buckeye's home court) before losing in the Sweet 16 Round against eventual Final Foul team Texas. Note that many are murmuring that she isn't the answer in Knoxville. If Baylor played in the SEC, we likely aren't making the tournament. We've been upset twice on our home court. That manes we've been over seeded. And both teams that beat us, including Ole Miss last year, lost their very next game.

Again, we don't have to win every game to be considered successful. We should be better than we currently are.

I am certain someone else could do better, but I also believe it would be marginally better at best. I think until we will and can commit the dollars needed to buy players like Miles, Prince, Van Lith and the like or unfortunately the ones that Tech and TCU will probably buy next year, there is a ceiling that we are not going to break through. unless we get really lucky with some under the radar players. I think she will stay, but do we even have the money to keep Scott and have enough left to put a good supporting cast around her?

As I said before, I would like to see the money numbers, but we aren't going to see those as to how we compare not only with SEC / ACC / B1G, but even with TCU and likely what Tech will start throwing out. All we see is getting down to being the final 2 or 3 on elite players' lists, only to see them end up in the SEC or ACC. I just think our conference affiliation puts a lid on getting players at just the going rate, and we don't have the money to pay the premium demanded to overcome the lure that those conferences have. I don't think the "coach" whoever we might have is going to be a big enough lure alone to get them in. And then, I suspect that while not SEC level, TCU and Tech, they still have more powder than do we. That is why I would like to see the numbers. If I did, I might repeat your observations.

There are a bunch of teams in this league and even in the other P4 leagues that would love to have the teams we have been having the last few years. We are getting in players that can compete, but not quite good enough to not have the flaws that you see. We are comparing ourselves to ourselves in a time and league that no longer exists. Many of your observations are valid (and actually I had some of those while Kim was here), but I think fixing those is just dealing with symptoms that flair up and not the root disease of being one of the best in our league and everywhere else except the SEC, B1G and ACC, but our league being the red-headed stepchild that the great players see as a last resort and we don't have the wallets to grease their palms enough to come here.

Most of us have recognized the gigantic gap between the XII and the other P4s. Iowa has stated he doesn't think anyone in the XII will make the second weekend. He probably is correct barring seeding breaks, although I would give TCU a chance.

Perhaps my view of the situation is too pessimistic, but I just think the situation we find ourselves is more than who is the coach and how well or not they direct their team during the season. I think it stems from what can realistically be expected of the level of players we can bring in under the current circumstances. We could replace CNC and many fan bases would ask why? They would love to have our record. Would the reward of starting anew be greater than the risk of something worse? I certainly don't know the answer to that.

I'll rest. Already taken up people's time too much. I look at the overall picture, especially with our needs in football and see no reason how Baylor can play the money game in WBB to the level needed to bring us anywhere close to the level we took for granted 6 years ago. That is why despite the flaws, I feel we have weathered the storm fairly well with all this chaos that started when KM walked and then exacerbated by OUT leaving and pay for play going crazy. So, I don't worry about it. I will be overjoyed if we beat TCU, but despite AP's opinion, I believe we do not overall match their talent and unless something changes way more impactful than changing the person on the sidelines that is not going to change.


Honest question - has CNC done anything with the Longhorn Foundation or with donors to discuss possible NIL collaborations? Maybe she has and I just haven't seen them. But she doesn't seem to interact with fans as much as other coaches, and she doesn't appear, at least to me, who doesn't live in Waco, like she is working to drum up opportunities. If that were a real problem, you'd think she, or someone on her staff, would be working to improve that part of her program.

I have no idea. I don't live in Waco either. As to your last question, remember we are talking likely about 6 figure needs. Joe Waco and local businesses probably aren't at the pay scale to provide that kind of money. And how are we to say she is not doing that and the Mulkey donors just don't want to participate because the coach's name is not Mulkey. We don't know. I think it best to just leave it at that. She has got enough to handle with her team and finding players for next year. KM probably had a lot more time to devote in this area because in this conference her team was on auto pilot for so long. I would think the AD is more in control of going after money. WBB would be in a lot better shape on that front if FB wasn't in the ditch. Now MBB spends money and absolutely stinks.

(I wish she could pull money from the LONGHORN foundation. We could pick up the crumbs off that floor and probably do pretty well in the money department.
franke
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Honestly think KM put in the most work. They were elite and killing the conference because of that work. Think it's taking the eliteness for granted to say otherwise.

College athletics is for sure different now. NIL is a huge part, but your ability to win definitely still plays a part. Until we see the return to a consistent second week in the tourney, it's going to be hard to sway some people.
bawitdaball
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The first half of today's game should have a lot of people asking questions.
DFW Bill
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Baylor just got smoked by 33 points in Lubbock. Some posters stated we had better talent, a better bench and a wonderful coach. I'm not a NC hatter by any means, Please tell me what happened tonight.
LTBear19
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DFW Bill said:

Baylor just got smoked by 33 points in Lubbock. Some posters stated we had better talent, a better bench and a wonderful coach. I'm not a NC hatter by any means, Please tell me what happened tonight.


Well, technically, we only lost by 31.

And what happened was CNC got outcoached again in a big game.

No surprise there.

FYI - We got roasted all night by a player who was selling cars in Mississippi just last year - Snudda Collins.
bawitdaball
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DFW Bill said:

Baylor just got smoked by 33 points in Lubbock. Some posters stated we had better talent, a better bench and a wonderful coach. I'm not a NC hatter by any means, Please tell me what happened tonight.


Better talent? Yes. The rest … I don't get it. We are a better team on paper. I'll be curious to hear how CNC justifies their prep. I'd love to have a seat in that press conference.
whitetrash
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Tonight was BU's second 30+ point loss of the season.

The last one before the 89-54 loss to UT in December was @LSU in January 2006 (88-57).

The last one before that was Sonja Hogg's final regular season game in 2000 (105-52 @ Tech).
bawitdaball
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blackie said:

bawitdaball said:

blackie said:

bawitdaball said:

Out of curiosity - how long do we play the "no one else has done it so CNC gets a pass" game? It's been five years. I don't want or need a National Championship. I don't even need a Final Four. I would just like to have big games where we show up and compete. I'd also like to have an offensive scheme that provides high percentage shots and caters to the personnel on the court. It is her job to find a scheme that works for the talent that she has. She can't force her scheme on others.

I've said it numerous times - none of her teams have been well disciplined. The ladies make predictable passes that flow within the offensive scheme that she has them run. They aren't adjusting, pivoting, or reading the defense. Andrews digressed back to her high school tendencies (yes, I know she was injured), it doesn't excuse the number of threes she jacked up in traffic. Blackwell and Edwards both struggled in her system after they transferred. Buggs and Bella still don't appear fully comfortable or as productive as you'd expect a senior to be.
Maybe she's built some great relationships at the high school level. If so, she hasn't shown it. The always the bridesmaid, never the bride is exhausting. I haven't seen her coach someone up yet. You can know the Xs and Os, which I truly believe she is always the most knowledge coach on the sideline every time Baylor plays, but it hasn't materialized on the court. I'm not calling for her job, I'm curious when we stop making excuses and begin to hold her accountable. We don't need a National Championship to have a fun, exciting, and competitive program. But we have got to perform. Everyone has and is dealing with NIL. Why hasn't she been able to make inroads with it in her first five years and why did she get a multi-year extension?

And on the note of Tennessee - Caldwell took over the program in 2024. She lead them to the Round of 32 in her first season and then upset Ohio State last year (on the Buckeye's home court) before losing in the Sweet 16 Round against eventual Final Foul team Texas. Note that many are murmuring that she isn't the answer in Knoxville. If Baylor played in the SEC, we likely aren't making the tournament. We've been upset twice on our home court. That manes we've been over seeded. And both teams that beat us, including Ole Miss last year, lost their very next game.

Again, we don't have to win every game to be considered successful. We should be better than we currently are.

I am certain someone else could do better, but I also believe it would be marginally better at best. I think until we will and can commit the dollars needed to buy players like Miles, Prince, Van Lith and the like or unfortunately the ones that Tech and TCU will probably buy next year, there is a ceiling that we are not going to break through. unless we get really lucky with some under the radar players. I think she will stay, but do we even have the money to keep Scott and have enough left to put a good supporting cast around her?

As I said before, I would like to see the money numbers, but we aren't going to see those as to how we compare not only with SEC / ACC / B1G, but even with TCU and likely what Tech will start throwing out. All we see is getting down to being the final 2 or 3 on elite players' lists, only to see them end up in the SEC or ACC. I just think our conference affiliation puts a lid on getting players at just the going rate, and we don't have the money to pay the premium demanded to overcome the lure that those conferences have. I don't think the "coach" whoever we might have is going to be a big enough lure alone to get them in. And then, I suspect that while not SEC level, TCU and Tech, they still have more powder than do we. That is why I would like to see the numbers. If I did, I might repeat your observations.

There are a bunch of teams in this league and even in the other P4 leagues that would love to have the teams we have been having the last few years. We are getting in players that can compete, but not quite good enough to not have the flaws that you see. We are comparing ourselves to ourselves in a time and league that no longer exists. Many of your observations are valid (and actually I had some of those while Kim was here), but I think fixing those is just dealing with symptoms that flair up and not the root disease of being one of the best in our league and everywhere else except the SEC, B1G and ACC, but our league being the red-headed stepchild that the great players see as a last resort and we don't have the wallets to grease their palms enough to come here.

Most of us have recognized the gigantic gap between the XII and the other P4s. Iowa has stated he doesn't think anyone in the XII will make the second weekend. He probably is correct barring seeding breaks, although I would give TCU a chance.

Perhaps my view of the situation is too pessimistic, but I just think the situation we find ourselves is more than who is the coach and how well or not they direct their team during the season. I think it stems from what can realistically be expected of the level of players we can bring in under the current circumstances. We could replace CNC and many fan bases would ask why? They would love to have our record. Would the reward of starting anew be greater than the risk of something worse? I certainly don't know the answer to that.

I'll rest. Already taken up people's time too much. I look at the overall picture, especially with our needs in football and see no reason how Baylor can play the money game in WBB to the level needed to bring us anywhere close to the level we took for granted 6 years ago. That is why despite the flaws, I feel we have weathered the storm fairly well with all this chaos that started when KM walked and then exacerbated by OUT leaving and pay for play going crazy. So, I don't worry about it. I will be overjoyed if we beat TCU, but despite AP's opinion, I believe we do not overall match their talent and unless something changes way more impactful than changing the person on the sidelines that is not going to change.


Honest question - has CNC done anything with the Longhorn Foundation or with donors to discuss possible NIL collaborations? Maybe she has and I just haven't seen them. But she doesn't seem to interact with fans as much as other coaches, and she doesn't appear, at least to me, who doesn't live in Waco, like she is working to drum up opportunities. If that were a real problem, you'd think she, or someone on her staff, would be working to improve that part of her program.

I have no idea. I don't live in Waco either. As to your last question, remember we are talking likely about 6 figure needs. Joe Waco and local businesses probably aren't at the pay scale to provide that kind of money. And how are we to say she is not doing that and the Mulkey donors just don't want to participate because the coach's name is not Mulkey. We don't know. I think it best to just leave it at that. She has got enough to handle with her team and finding players for next year. KM probably had a lot more time to devote in this area because in this conference her team was on auto pilot for so long. I would think the AD is more in control of going after money. WBB would be in a lot better shape on that front if FB wasn't in the ditch. Now MBB spends money and absolutely stinks.

(I wish she could pull money from the LONGHORN foundation. We could pick up the crumbs off that floor and probably do pretty well in the money department.


Ha - I went to Texas and used to work for the Longhorn Foundation - some habits die hard. That said, I think people would be shocked to understand where the money within the UT program is going. Yes, they spent high dollar amounts for the men's sports - but please don't act like people were lining up to donate NIL dollars to the women's program during Vic's first several seasons. And please understand that he was still competitively recruiting at that time. They still aren't spending what many people want to think. If CNC cannot get out and "raise" six figures for her program, she isn't it. I honestly don't think she is it regardless, but she should be out in the community, rubbing elbows and getting butts in seats in an effort to build her program and make home games a nightmare for the opposition. Outside of the Baylor run podcast and internet shows, I'm not sure she does much of anything. This isn't the WNBA. Money doesn't just appear. You have to be part of the community. You have to build a brand. To my eyes, she has done none of it and has settled for middle of the packing a pitiful conference. She wasn't the real answer for the Dream, and I don't think she was ever the answer for the Bears.

Another question - have we ever seen a past player come back and take in a game? Have any of her graduates returned to visit with her? Curious given the lack of social media posts about this and the fact that Fritz looks pissed any time she sees a Baylor jersey. Makes me wonder the true connections she's making with her team. If I transferred in and then digressed, I'd be annoyed.
ECBear
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CNC's contract runs through 2030 and she makes $1.2M a year. I am not sure we can financially do anything with her for a couple of more seasons. I appreciate her being willing to follow a HOF coach. But this program does not have much momentum. I am really worried where the program will be when we can finally make a change.
 
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