I wish it were a BU only deal as well. Caddy and Sadler and I agree about that. But there are multiple, even endless, arrangements out there based on each individual contract executed. So we can't project any other experience on the the Waco/BU scenario. Hopefully it will be fully BU owned and Waco pitching in for river development and limited use. Time will tell the story.

And Caddy, donor designated gifts cannot be redirected by the administration. If that was done it is illegal. Such designated gifts are to be used only for purposes designated by the donor or returned. Hope you blew the whistle if it was otherwise.

A tortuous labyrinth of self interests and intrigue. It's enough to make Baton Rouge look functional by comparison.

ABC BEAR said:

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A tortuous labyrinth of self interests and intrigue. It's enough to make Baton Rouge look functional by comparison.

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no wonder she went there

You'd have a better chance of finding out what's in the books of the Sinaloa Cartel than you would of knowing what goes on between University Parks and 8th Street. Much like a modern day mega-church. Don't forget...we're a "private" school.

Malbec said:

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T-REX said:

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SSadler said:

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PartyBear said:

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Why do you think Waco and University High Schools will be playing there? The partnership is with the city of Waco not WISD.

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They presently "rent" the Ferrell, along with other ISDs for graduation ceremonies/ Those events all fall within one week's schedule in the Spring. Not a major problem if it's only one week.

But elsewhere I've opined that IF the shared facility is available for non-BU events throughout the year, and IF BU gets in to the posture of leasing out the new facility to aid usage costs, then local ISDs and the Waco Chamber will certainly want to claim and/or rent the newer and better and shinier facility than the Ferrell. Just as the City will certainly want and expect to put its own tractor-pull type, good ole boy events into the facility throughout the year.

In time, just another HOT story to play out in the new facility.

I'm selfish--like a child. I don't want to play well with others in sharing OUR bball arena..

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I pray there are events there every weekend that bball isnt playing a game. Will be a great venue for concerts & other events. Will help aid the economical boom in that area & support the businesses that choose to build around the arena site. The city & other event promoters can use it all they want. Hope it's used for high school playoff games too just like McLane is used.

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And in 20 years, it'll be, "We need to replace our rat trap fieldhouse. We can't compete against other schools with this run down barn. There has to be a BMD to splash a lead gift on us for a new facility. $1.3B is pocket change! Get it done!"

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Yes, one of first my thoughts. Multiple ongoing uses mean eventual wearing it out.

T-REX said:

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Caddywampus said:

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Last we all heard, this arena was supposed to be Baylor's new basketball arena. The fear for those of us that know better know where this is likely headed based upon similar situations around the country. And no, this is nothing new...and not "the way the sport is headed." It's about shared revenue with the City of Waco and their influence once they are allowed into the ownership of the facility. For example, take a look at the Hofheinz Pavillion in Houston, now known as the Fertitta Center. In 1967, when the well-intentioned UH alumn Judge Roy Hofheinz and his wife donated the lead gift to UH to have it built, it was his blessing for UH. That blew up. City of Houston taxpayer money got involved and the facility completely lost it's UH identity. Over the next 50 years, that place was pimped-out for every type of event you could imagine. From bull-riding to televangelists to rap concerts. For the City of Houston folks, not a problem. But if you were a UH true blood supporter, it was a pain and a regret. Yes, UH used it for basketball and other UH events...what is what built for. But they lost control of it when they allowed taxpayer money into the mix. And the sad part is, most of the money that built it was donated by UH alumni. But sad to say, off-UH events consumed 90% of the benefit. So ask yourself...."Why is Waco so interested in this arena?" Because they get to use it...and have to pay very little to do so with much of the say-so as to how it is used. And built mostly with Baylor donor money to boot. What city would not love that deal? It will wind up being a Baylor arena in name only before it is over. Just watch.

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sounds perfect to me. Baylor & Waco can finally have the partnership that should have always been & we can finally become the home town team/school that has never been. Sounds like the citizens of Waco will become connected with baylor and thus transform into fans, many of which will have money for tickets and donations going forward. Just like other non-traditional baylor supporters such as myself who don't have an academic connection to BU but are big supporters. There are many positives that should not be ignored

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I'm sorry, I have to laugh at that. Life long resident of the community and infinite aggy and whorn T-Shirt fans exist in Waco. Largely a blue collar city with many communities surrounding it; thus, State school families. West, for example, a Czech community that babies are born with a gig'em thumb inserted versus a swat on the butt to start life.

BBWCBear said:

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T-REX said:

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Caddywampus said:

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Last we all heard, this arena was supposed to be Baylor's new basketball arena. The fear for those of us that know better know where this is likely headed based upon similar situations around the country. And no, this is nothing new...and not "the way the sport is headed." It's about shared revenue with the City of Waco and their influence once they are allowed into the ownership of the facility. For example, take a look at the Hofheinz Pavillion in Houston, now known as the Fertitta Center. In 1967, when the well-intentioned UH alumn Judge Roy Hofheinz and his wife donated the lead gift to UH to have it built, it was his blessing for UH. That blew up. City of Houston taxpayer money got involved and the facility completely lost it's UH identity. Over the next 50 years, that place was pimped-out for every type of event you could imagine. From bull-riding to televangelists to rap concerts. For the City of Houston folks, not a problem. But if you were a UH true blood supporter, it was a pain and a regret. Yes, UH used it for basketball and other UH events...what is what built for. But they lost control of it when they allowed taxpayer money into the mix. And the sad part is, most of the money that built it was donated by UH alumni. But sad to say, off-UH events consumed 90% of the benefit. So ask yourself...."Why is Waco so interested in this arena?" Because they get to use it...and have to pay very little to do so with much of the say-so as to how it is used. And built mostly with Baylor donor money to boot. What city would not love that deal? It will wind up being a Baylor arena in name only before it is over. Just watch.

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sounds perfect to me. Baylor & Waco can finally have the partnership that should have always been & we can finally become the home town team/school that has never been. Sounds like the citizens of Waco will become connected with baylor and thus transform into fans, many of which will have money for tickets and donations going forward. Just like other non-traditional baylor supporters such as myself who don't have an academic connection to BU but are big supporters. There are many positives that should not be ignored

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I'm sorry, I have to laugh at that. Life long resident of the community and infinite aggy and whorn T-Shirt fans exist in Waco. Largely a blue collar city with many communities surrounding it; thus, State school families. West, for example, a Czech community that babies are born with a gig'em thumb inserted versus a swat on the butt to start life.

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yea there are tons of non baylor fans in Waco but there is no reason many can't become bears. I know plenty who went from being UT fans to Baylor fans after 2013. We need all the fans we can get. Fans spend money & come to games. Takes money to be successful in college sports. Alabama ain't gonna turn away a bandwagon fan. Every shirt bought is a royalty to the school

fredbear said:

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And Caddy, donor designated gifts cannot be redirected by the administration. If that was done it is illegal. Such designated gifts are to be used only for purposes designated by the donor or returned. Hope you blew the whistle if it was otherwise.

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It's not illegal. The money goes to Baylor. That is never a question. And Baylor is a private university. The problem is, if you want it to go to a specific program, you better write it on the check. And as I was told by the coach, you have to hand it back to them and they have to "walk it over to the finance office" and tell them to make sure their program gets those funds. In other words, you have to work at it. But how many people know to do that? It may have changed. But that was how it was not too long ago. I am sure there are many that could care less as long as Baylor gets it. And like the church pastor, that's probably how they like it.

Baylor should exercise total control over the new facility. Waco derives benefit from the Baylor events there, and that justifies their contributions to the site development, but not to facility use. If it cannot be built with available funds, then wait until that is possible. I do like the idea of building it specifically for basketball. The Haas Pavilion at Berkeley is a great basketball facility and a great homecourt advantage for a team that really needs one. it was an old building, but the Haas family (think Levi Strauss)) paid to have the roof raised and additional seating, then updating the entire facility. The results were outstanding, but Cal has not lived up to the opportunity that it presented them.

It is my understanding that the Hurd family did not request that the floor be named for them, that it was a Baylor decision. If I am wrong in believing that to be the case, I would love to hear other wise. I would prefer that Baylor not be so eager to rush to the name-that-court routine. Over the years they have sold out on the cheap in that regard, as far as I am concerned.

Drayton McLane did not want the stadium named for him, but wanted to restore the name, Baylor Stadium. He had to be talked into it by Baylor, if reports at the time are to be believed. It does not really matter very much, but his original idea does him credit, Baylor's insistence otherwise, not so much for the university.

We can differ on these matters, but I believe that we all want Baylor to become more of what it can be, whether it is in the area of academics, or in athletics. How we get there stirs some argument, but the goal remains vital to all of us. The "getting there", however, may well affect the outcome that the goal represents. That is why these discussions are useful in clarifying some of the issues. I am far less informed on many of these matters than some of the posters here, and I appreciate the varying points of view and the information driving them.

Caddy a pastor of a church must also use funds as designated (unless the are general budget contributions) or return them. The law is the law. And even general budget contributions must go to general budget expenditures. If you are going to a church where you can't see a printed budget or financial statement, you are simply going to the wrong church. And I can assure you first hand BU has extensive auditing resources in play both internally and then externally. And I can assure you they get very high rating on following standard accounting principles.

fredbear said:

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Caddy a pastor of a church must also use funds as designated (unless the are general budget contributions) or return them. The law is the law. And even general budget contributions must go to general budget expenditures. If you are going to a church where you can't see a printed budget or financial statement, you are simply going to the wrong church. And I can assure you first hand BU has extensive auditing resources in play both internally and then externally. And I can assure you they get very high rating on following standard accounting principles.

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You and caddy are right. If a donation has specific instructions on what to use it for then it will be restricted and must be used for that project/program. However, donations that do not give specific instructions can be used however Baylor wants.

https://bloomerang.co/blog/nonprofits-are-you-really-restricting-your-restricted-funds/

Anyone who thinks that the decisions/actions surrounding the new arena are anything but to maximize the almighty dollar return to the school are fooling themselves. Student athletics at Baylor is a P&L driven business - period. Don't let your fandom of Baylor athletic teams cloud your reality. It will only hurt.....

Sic'em

fredbear said:

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Caddy a pastor of a church must also use funds as designated (unless the are general budget contributions) or return them. The law is the law. And even general budget contributions must go to general budget expenditures. If you are going to a church where you can't see a printed budget or financial statement, you are simply going to the wrong church. And I can assure you first hand BU has extensive auditing resources in play both internally and then externally. And I can assure you they get very high rating on following standard accounting principles.

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Nobody said Baylor does not release a financial statement. Not to ridicule, but not what we are discussing. The issue is what comes underneath those numbers. Things like coaches salaries, etc. It has always been told to those of us that follow along that Baylor does not disclose those funds. And the backdoor out of that is that we are a private university and are not required to disclose. So that is what Baylor hangs its hat on to keep the numbers under wraps. The only way we know what the "big sport" coaches make is by looking into IRS forms that require a university to tax disclose the top 5 salaries within the institution. So you have to look it up via the tax return. We have access to the financial statements. No one disputes that or that they are audited. If fact, I'll close this post with the pdf for tax year 2019-2020. But outside of the line "Operating Revenues- Other sources-Intercollegiate athletics @ $68 million, what happens underneath it? Again, Baylor has that right. But don't expect, from what I have been told, for much below that to ever be disclosed or any details. All you can do is assume. And if anyone can find anything to correct that...please fire away and disclose it. By the way, the comment from anyone that says or insinuates that donated funds are designated/disclosed "openly"? Other than some token press release...please prove it. We would all like to know how that is available. Because that is basically the whole point. And if any of the above is inaccurate, I'll stand corrected.

https://www.baylor.edu/financial_services/doc.php/364069.pdf

Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Has it been decided that Robinson Tower will be demolished? Where will those people relocate?

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The Hurd Center is huge. Why not there

Wichitabear said:

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Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Has it been decided that Robinson Tower will be demolished? Where will those people relocate?

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The Hurd Center is huge. Why not there

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or probably won't be built in time. Didn't think that one through

Robinson Tower is NOT being demolished.

Build it they will come.

Adriacus Peratuun said:

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SSadler said:

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Thank you Adriacus, but the sheer volume of your posts, not to mention your words, does not, as it often appears at first glance, make you a "know everything" 'on everything" and thus whom you target in your posts "know nothings."

Have you ever considered that you are SO verbose that posters learn to gloss over your posts in order not to get bogged down?

You are a very valuable poster. You simply are extremely verbose and recurrent in your value.

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Let me boil it down for you:

City of Arlington/Texas Rangers:

Joint financing of Globe Life Park paid off 10 years ahead of schedule.

City of Arlington/Dallas Cowboys:

Joint financing of AT&T Stadium was targeting "paid off" 13 years ahead of schedule.
City's portion of Debt refinanced to fund new Globe Life Field using City's position in AT&T Stadium as collateral. Saved City at least $74,000,000 in interest over life of loan. Original debt schedule remains. Date for "pay off" of debt on one stadium sees two stadiums owned.

Projected usage of AT&T stadium was 25 events per year above Cowboys' usage. Actual usage in 2019 was 300 events above Cowboys usage. Due to increased usage, naming rights generating 1000% above projections [annually].

City of Arlington/Globe Life:

Half cent tax approved by taxpayers to fund one stadium nets two stadiums on same timeline.

City of Arlington:

Economic Impact: billions $ annually. Estimated economic impact of one wrestling event was $125,000,000

Increased property/sales tax revenue for city, schools, other taxing authorities will be in the trillions $ over life of stadiums.

Texas Rangers/Dallas Cowboys:

Projected additional revenues in the billions $ over life of stadiums.


If those results are too verbose for you, sorry. You aren't the target audience. I am talking to people who actually care about the financial welfare of Baylor.

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Thank you, Adriacus. You made may case for me.

Caddy, you are making different assertions now that are, on the whole, correct. BU has the distinction of being a private university. That gives some advantages and disadvantages. Among the advantages is that salaries do not have to be published. Tax payer dollars do not pay the salaries, so tax payers (forced contributors) have no right to access salaries. Donors can choose to contribute or not, but they know Up front they will not have access to salary info accept through the back door (and quite tardy) irs source as you indicated. Actually, that is a huge negotiation advantage when hiring coaches. We all have access to vic's salary since we help pay it via forced tax. BU cut its best deal with NC based on market forces and is paying less than it paid the last coach ( I assume), but UT fans can't boast of spending more or prioritizing the wbb coaches salary above BU. They just don't know. Had Duke wanted to hire Drew, they would only have access to years old salary information. Trust me, state universities would not choose to publish those numbers. They would love the privacy advantage Baylor enjoys. To say "we don't know" is not to say that an appropriate board committee that approves the contracts doesn't know. They do and play the privacy advantage to Baylor's favor in many ways. KM stayed a long time and irs info indicates she was paid fairly at the precise intersection of her performance and market forces. Doing the same Drew can be retained wout losing the privacy advantage. Transparency that everyone touts comes at a big price. Personnel issues should be kept private when the law allows. It does in the BU case and no University, private or public, would be so foolish as to hand over their negotiating advantage. When tax payers choose to send BU tuition money for students in the same direct fashion as they do UT, BU will loose both that advantage and its distinction as a private, sectarian institution.

Matt Rhule made over $4 million, Scott Drew made over $3.5 million, and Mack Rhoades made over $2 million from May 2019-2020. Salaries for nonprofits are available on 990 filings. See page 22-23 and 124-125 on link below.

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/741159753_202005_990_2021041517950774.pdf

According to Baylor's 2017 IRS Form 990 the following total compensation was reported :

Matt Rhule $7,302,532.

Mack Rhoades, IV $2,905,652

Kim Mulkey $2,440,880.

I have no problem with Rhule or Mulkey's compensation.

There is an old saying, "when the tide comes in, all boats rise."