Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Some guns should not be available. As long as we are a culture that glorifies guns we will have them. I dont think most people need them and the thought of a bunch of guys walking around armed all the time scares me.

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Honest question …are you willing to give up all your firearms ?

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I have an old 22 revolver, my grandfathers service pistol., a bolt action 22. A double barrel 12 gauge. a 16 gauge shotgun an old bolt action rifle from some war and a little target practice 22 rifle. All of them have been passed down from relatives. I dont have the ones guys carrry or the ak 47 etc. Havent shot most in years. I dont think these types of guns are tge pronblem. I dont sneak around with them or sleep with them or clean them every other day. I think i would pass them down to my 2 sons and son in law and 4 male grandkids and let them make that decision. Bad answer but probably true. I am not at the ranch often enough to need them anymore.

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One of those weapons of war?!

"Weapons of war have no place in our communities." -Biden

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

The first step is to understand the scale of the challenge America faces: The U.S. has more than 300 million guns-roughly one for every citizen-and stands out as well for its gun death rates. At the other extreme, Japan has less than one gun per 100 people, and typically fewer than 10 gun deaths a year in the entire country.

Guns per 100 people
Among developed countries, the United States has by far the highest rate of firearms ownership.
120.5 UNITED STATES
34.7 CANADA
27.6 SWITZERLAND
23.1 SWEDEN
19.6 FRANCE
19.6 GERMANY
14.5 AUSTRALIA
14.4 ITALY
7.5 SPAIN
4.6 ENGLAND, WALES
0.3 JAPAN

Gun murders per 100,000 people
America's private arsenal is five times as lethal as Canada's, and 30 times worse than Australia's.
3.4 UNITED STATES
0.6 CANADA
0.4 FRANCE
0.4 SWEDEN
0.3 ITALY
0.2 SWITZERLAND
0.1 AUSTRALIA
0.1 GERMANY
0.1 SPAIN
0 ENGLAND, WALES
0 JAPAN
Sources: Small Arms Survey, United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.Ownership rates are for 2017. Murder rates for the U.S., Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Australia and Spain are from 2016; otherwise, the latest available rates are used.

We have a model for regulating guns: automobiles
Gun enthusiasts often protest: Cars kill about as many people as guns, and we don't ban them! No, but automobiles are actually a model for the public health approach I'm suggesting.

We don't ban cars, but we work hard to regulate them and limit access to them so as to reduce the death toll they cause. This has been spectacularly successful, reducing the death rate per 100 million miles driven to less than one-seventh of what it was in 1946.

Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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SIC EM 94 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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cowboycwr said:

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1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

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Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

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What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

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I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

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Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

…

J.B.Katz said:

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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

The first step is to understand the scale of the challenge America faces: The U.S. has more than 300 million guns-roughly one for every citizen-and stands out as well for its gun death rates. At the other extreme, Japan has less than one gun per 100 people, and typically fewer than 10 gun deaths a year in the entire country.

Guns per 100 people
Among developed countries, the United States has by far the highest rate of firearms ownership.
120.5 UNITED STATES
34.7 CANADA
27.6 SWITZERLAND
23.1 SWEDEN
19.6 FRANCE
19.6 GERMANY
14.5 AUSTRALIA
14.4 ITALY
7.5 SPAIN
4.6 ENGLAND, WALES
0.3 JAPAN

Gun murders per 100,000 people
America's private arsenal is five times as lethal as Canada's, and 30 times worse than Australia's.
3.4 UNITED STATES
0.6 CANADA
0.4 FRANCE
0.4 SWEDEN
0.3 ITALY
0.2 SWITZERLAND
0.1 AUSTRALIA
0.1 GERMANY
0.1 SPAIN
0 ENGLAND, WALES
0 JAPAN
Sources: Small Arms Survey, United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.Ownership rates are for 2017. Murder rates for the U.S., Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Australia and Spain are from 2016; otherwise, the latest available rates are used.

We have a model for regulating guns: automobiles
Gun enthusiasts often protest: Cars kill about as many people as guns, and we don't ban them! No, but automobiles are actually a model for the public health approach I'm suggesting.

We don't ban cars, but we work hard to regulate them and limit access to them so as to reduce the death toll they cause. This has been spectacularly successful, reducing the death rate per 100 million miles driven to less than one-seventh of what it was in 1946.

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1. Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights.

2. Firearms are already the most heavily regulated property.

boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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SIC EM 94 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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cowboycwr said:

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1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

It is a slippery slope. But, there needs to be a reasonable standard we can all agree on where there is reasonable interventions required. That could range from an isolated intervention to forced committal. In virtually all of these cases there are clear, obvious signs of a serious mental health problem. I think we're generally doing a good job of de-stigmatizing it, but we need some clear interventions.

boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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SIC EM 94 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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cowboycwr said:

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1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

TODAY: Governor Greg Abbott to hold press conference at noon on Robb Elementary School Shooting In Uvalde along with other state officials.

KWTX will be broadcasting the press conference on air and online. pic.twitter.com/lnoI9mr0um

— KWTX News 10 (@kwtx) May 25, 2022

With respect to the "small school" theory, Uvalde is a 4A school. They have the money to have mag-locks on the doors and controlled entrances in their schools.

I would guess they do. Most, if not all schools, in Texas have this in place. As mentioned earlier, all school practice Active Shooter drills.

Besides locked doors, other devices have been installed to help prevent a shooter from breaching a classroom.

Sometimes, sadly, we can't stop evil.

J.B.Katz said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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SIC EM 94 said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

ScottS said:

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Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

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I like having a policeman at the school, but in your district I don't know that it necessarily deterred any attack. While these attacks are horrible and happen, the odds of such a shooting at any individual school or even school district are really low.

I would also note, that the Tops grocery had an armed guard. The shooter knew it and it didn't deter him. He just wore body armor and killed the guard, who was a retired policeman.

I would love to see all handguns and assault rifles banned. But I'm a realist and know that won't happen.

Absent that, your policeman idea is helpful but not necessarily curative. These shooters all gave warning signs of what they were going to do. But they were either missed, ignored, or encouraged. Maybe schools engaging in closer monitoring of students. But that's difficult because I'm sure right now thousands of young men are showing warning signs, but most likely none of them will do anything.

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

I'd be willing to bet that the shooter was heavily involved in video games 1st-person shooter video games. The causes of mass-shooting are multi-faceted. I'm not arguing that this was the main cause. The causes of mass-shootings are multi-faceted: mental disorders (lack of/or resistance to help), readily access to guns, stress/anxiety, etc.

We want to look for a cause, reason, or some sense rationality for the brutal insanity of a tragic situation. There is rarely a single point of failure. Airplanes rarely crash due to a single point of failure. People don't do these horrific actions for one lone reason.

There is a book that some may find interesting, called Assassination Generation: Video Games, Aggression, and the Psychology of Killing by war hero and Ret. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. He's written a few other topic related books as well.

It discusses the psychology behind the desensitizing and "training" to kill that happens in video games.

Studies show that only 15-20% of combat soldiers pulled the trigger during WWII. In Korea, the military upped it to 50-55%. By Vietnam, it reached 90-95%.

During basic for WWII, our soldiers were trained to shoot paper targets with the traditional concentric ring bullseye. They changed the training for Korea and Vietnam. They started using human silhouettes targets. Hence the increase in shooting.

Video games have played their role in these events too. I'm not condemning all video games. I play them with sons from time to time. I do enjoy stuff like GTA, Fortnite, etc. I'm not calling for a ban on these games. Pandora has opened the box. I'm not sure what we do now.

Why aren't we seeing stories of high school football players becoming school shooters?
We need young men participating in activities that burn off energy and make them part of their schools. High school athletics is a great way to make the young person an insider instead of an outsider.

C. Jordan said:

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ScottS said:

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Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

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No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

---

This is the part I don't understand. There are models out there that have demonstrated success with reducing gun violence for over 20+ years with measures they enacted. We don't have to copy those things 100%....but couldn't we at least have a conversation at looking at some of the measures.

Jack and DP said:

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Why aren't we seeing stories of high school football players becoming school shooters?
We need young men participating in activities that burn off energy and make them part of their schools. High school athletics is a great way to make the young person an insider instead of an outsider.

---

HS athletes have their fair share of bullying or hazing issues, but I understand your point.

It's not just athletics that helps with inclusion. It can be any extra-circular like band, choir, one-act, robotics, dance, etc.

JL said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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SIC EM 94 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

So what solutions do you suggest?

I believe there is a need for more responsibility for gun safety. The recent mass shootings clearly show that people with a mentally unhealthy view of the world are getting possession of weapons and using them. The first question I had when I heard of the recent shooting is "why", what was the motive. There needs to be enough gun control in this country to prevent people like this from getting guns. There needs to be enough gun control in this country to limit the number of rounds that can be popped off in in a minute or so. Twenty-one people died in Uvalde. A weapon that can wield that much power cannot be in the hands of mentally unstable person.

I agree with the comments made by others in this thread about taking guns from mentally unstable people, but this has proven to be ineffective in preventing mass shootings. There needs to be a reduction in the number of guns available in our society, and a reduction in the number of rounds those guns can fire in a short time period.

I believe everyone in our society should clearly express the notion that guns are not a good option to solve personal issues. The should only be used for self-defense.

BTW: I am a gun owner and a supporter of the 2nd amendment. I believe that enough is enough and we need to limit gun ownership and not glorify it.

JL said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

---

SIC EM 94 said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

Gun homicide rates by country….https://t.co/ub33DTkSnN pic.twitter.com/TJ2Ey4KFH5

— Eric Umansky (@ericuman) May 25, 2022

boognish_bear said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

---

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

---

This is the part I don't understand. There are models out there that have demonstrated success with reducing gun violence for over 20+ years with measures they enacted. We don't have to copy those things 100%....but couldn't we at least have a conversation at looking at some of the measures.

---

Those other countries also don't have a Bill of Rights to contend with, or as stated above, 120 guns per 100 people to content with. At the end of the day, our leaders won't do the hard work of coming up with solutions that would prevent these tragedies. An evil person will be able to get a gun no matter what new gun control you want to start. The US has to look beyond gun control and get to the root of this evil.

Looks like mental health issues and bullying is where the 2 parties are closest on shared opinion

Texas polling: Factors Most to Blame for School Shootings (by 2-party ID from June 2018) https://t.co/r4dAQ5STIQ via @TxPolProject #txlege pic.twitter.com/iEK1pjPGv8

— Jim Henson (@jamesrhenson) May 25, 2022

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

SIC EM 94 said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

SIC EM 94 said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

SIC EM 94 said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

1. Armed police officers works for districts that can afford an officer per school. It doesn't work for smaller schools.
And as pointed out it doesn't always help if the officer does nothing like the Florida shooting.

2. Then there is the issue that they can't be everywhere at once and a shooter can still get in to the school.

3. Someone mentioned the locked doors. This is huge. There should be one entrance used to the school. Which is a problem at older schools that have multiple buildings like detached gyms, locker rooms, band halls, etc.

4. All schools need the locked outer door and an interior vestibule door that is locked.

5. Then go a step further and the glass on both doors and windows next to them need to be bullet resistant. I know of plenty of schools that have the two door system but both are just regular safety glass. Hard to break with a rock, chair, etc. but a gun would be able to shoot it out.

6. Panic button at the front desk.

7. Front desk person armed/ safe with locked gun. Or at minimum something like a can of bear spray.

8. Armed staff

9. Lots of drills. Currently in Texas schools have to do two lock down/active shooter drills a year. It should be more. With practice on what to do.

10. All classrooms should have devices used to jam the doors shut. There are a lot of options for any type of door.

All of these don't need to be done but at least two or 3 would help a lot.

---

Yeah, I really want my grandkids to spent their school hours doing lots of active shooter drills and investing time and energy in all of the rest of this stuff instead of actually learning how to read, right and do arithemetic so Cowboy can open carry.

---

What the Hell does open carry have to do with school shootings? You are so consumed by your dream of banning guns, that you make the most irrelevant posts over and over. Can you please try and think like an adult?

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

---

Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Cheshire Bear said:

---

I don't think "more guns" is the answer. I don't think "no guns" is the answer either.

Frankly, I think we have deep seeded issues within our society. People fall through the cracks too often. We have a general apathy for people, a mistrust and lack of concern for our neighbor, and we've all been desensitized to these things to the point where this is now normal. I don't know how to fix it, but it's heartbreaking to watch. All I can say is hold your loved ones close, treat everyone you encounter with dignity and respect, and try to be a light in someone's life. We need people like that, and I think they're in short supply these days.

---

I agree. Mistrust contributes to anger and polarization, which have reached dangerous levels. Not that school shootings are political, but societies that are close to a political breaking point tend to have increasing crime and violence.

---

I think you're on to something here. Semi-automatic guns have been available since the early 1900's (e.g. the Colt .45 caliber model 1911). Fully automatic guns (machine guns) were available to anyone until 1934. Even so, we didn't see mass shootings like we do today. This begs the question, why? What's different?

Do people live with more stress today? Do more people suffer from mental health issues today? Have violent video games contributed to a disregard for human life? How has the increased coarseness of political speech affected people? What role has social media played?

In the U.S. about 23% of children live in one-parent households. This compares to about 7% in the rest of the world. The U.S. figure is the result of divorce (hasn't risen much in the past few decades), the decline in marriage rates, and the rise in births outside marriage. I've got to believe this has some affect on the emotional well-being of children.

Freaking keystone cops with enough body armor and assault rifles to outfit an invading force got scared of a guy with a flapping plate carrier and hid in their cars as he went and murdered 19 kids.

WHAT DO THEY EVEN PRETEND TO DO!

What the point of all the money we spend on our police forces and they still won't get off their *** and engage a suspect who they could have easily shot down.

JL said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

---

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

---

This is the part I don't understand. There are models out there that have demonstrated success with reducing gun violence for over 20+ years with measures they enacted. We don't have to copy those things 100%....but couldn't we at least have a conversation at looking at some of the measures.

---

Those other countries also don't have a Bill of Rights to contend with, or as stated above, 120 guns per 100 people to content with. At the end of the day, our leaders won't do the hard work of coming up with solutions that would prevent these tragedies. An evil person will be able to get a gun no matter what new gun control you want to start. The US has to look beyond gun control and get to the root of this evil.

---

Most countries have a Constitution or a similar document enshrining Citizens rights, Britain does and in it, a Citizen has a right to bear Arms, just, when we had a School shooting, we introduced Laws to make Gun Ownership (outside of some Hunting Rifles) very difficult, but not impossible, theres a Gun Shop in the town nearest to where i live, for example, that sells Shotguns and Hunting Rifles, I dont know what hoops i need to go through in order to be able to buy one though.

Having served in schools, it's easy to see these are soft targets for evil people. Evil people know they will get in & not face resistance.

1. Lock the doors with only one access point through several doors into the office
2. If you don't have identification or a child in that school then you don't get inside during class hrs
3. Armed officers plus trained concealed carry people inside
4. Panic buttons in every classroom
5. Well regularly trained staff to know what to do
6. Politicians to stop using guns as a talking point and actually fix the problems with poor schools
7. Get the teachers union out of our schools
8. Return God to the classroom
9. Media needs to stop glorifying the killer.
10. Get serious about mental health problems within the community

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

---

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

---

This is the part I don't understand. There are models out there that have demonstrated success with reducing gun violence for over 20+ years with measures they enacted. We don't have to copy those things 100%....but couldn't we at least have a conversation at looking at some of the measures.

---

Those other countries also don't have a Bill of Rights to contend with, or as stated above, 120 guns per 100 people to content with. At the end of the day, our leaders won't do the hard work of coming up with solutions that would prevent these tragedies. An evil person will be able to get a gun no matter what new gun control you want to start. The US has to look beyond gun control and get to the root of this evil.

---

Most countries have a Constitution or a similar document enshrining Citizens rights, Britain does and in it, a Citizen has a right to bear Arms, just, when we had a School shooting, we introduced Laws to make Gun Ownership (outside of some Hunting Rifles) very difficult, but not impossible, theres a Gun Shop in the town nearest to where i live, for example, that sells Shotguns and Hunting Rifles, I dont know what hoops i need to go through in order to be able to buy one though.

---

Really?

"Unlike most modern states, Britain does NOT have a codified constitution but an unwritten one formed of Acts of Parliament, court judgments and conventions."

https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution

https://constitution-unit.com/2020/01/08/do-we-need-a-written-constitution/

JL said:

---

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

---

Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

---

Neither was Blacks or Women being able to vote, the Bill of Rights is a Living document, even the people who wrote it expected it to evolve over time

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:

---

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

---

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

---

This is the part I don't understand. There are models out there that have demonstrated success with reducing gun violence for over 20+ years with measures they enacted. We don't have to copy those things 100%....but couldn't we at least have a conversation at looking at some of the measures.

---

Those other countries also don't have a Bill of Rights to contend with, or as stated above, 120 guns per 100 people to content with. At the end of the day, our leaders won't do the hard work of coming up with solutions that would prevent these tragedies. An evil person will be able to get a gun no matter what new gun control you want to start. The US has to look beyond gun control and get to the root of this evil.

---

Most countries have a Constitution or a similar document enshrining Citizens rights, Britain does and in it, a Citizen has a right to bear Arms, just, when we had a School shooting, we introduced Laws to make Gun Ownership (outside of some Hunting Rifles) very difficult, but not impossible, theres a Gun Shop in the town nearest to where i live, for example, that sells Shotguns and Hunting Rifles, I dont know what hoops i need to go through in order to be able to buy one though.

---

Really?

"Unlike most modern states, Britain does NOT have a codified constitution but an unwritten one formed of Acts of Parliament, court judgments and conventions."

https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution

https://constitution-unit.com/2020/01/08/do-we-need-a-written-constitution/

---

then tell me what the 1689 Bill of Rights (one which heavily influenced parts of your own Constitution) is then

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/parliamentaryauthority/revolution/collections1/collections-glorious-revolution/billofrights/

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

---

Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

---

Neither was Blacks or Women being able to vote, the Bill of Rights is a Living document, even the people who wrote it expected it to evolve over time

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:

---

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

---

---

Passing gun control laws is not the same as a Constitutional Amendment, much different process.

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

cms186 said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

---

Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

---

Neither was Blacks or Women being able to vote, the Bill of Rights is a Living document, even the people who wrote it expected it to evolve over time

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:

---

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

---

---

The Bill of Rights (and rest of the Constitution) seems very much to anticipate the expansion of new rights as the people and their representatives deem them needed or justified.

But it certainly does not imply that any already created and established Rights can ever be restricted.

So as an example the right of women to vote can be given...the right to vote for men can never be taken away.

The right to own space lasers might be give in the future...the right to own guns can never be taken away.

C. Jordan said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Our school district has a policeman at each school. They implemented this in reaction Sandy Hook years ago. And guess what, no school shootings at any school in this district. The politicians in DC always have a back and forth but their solutions are all talk. They aren't on the local level and their solutions (and talk) won't solve anything.

---

I like having a policeman at the school, but in your district I don't know that it necessarily deterred any attack. While these attacks are horrible and happen, the odds of such a shooting at any individual school or even school district are really low.

I would also note, that the Tops grocery had an armed guard. The shooter knew it and it didn't deter him. He just wore body armor and killed the guard, who was a retired policeman.

I would love to see all handguns and assault rifles banned. But I'm a realist and know that won't happen.

Absent that, your policeman idea is helpful but not necessarily curative. These shooters all gave warning signs of what they were going to do. But they were either missed, ignored, or encouraged. Maybe schools engaging in closer monitoring of students. But that's difficult because I'm sure right now thousands of young men are showing warning signs, but most likely none of them will do anything.

No other country in the world has this problem. Maybe we could look to them for answers.

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Now we know that police actually engaged the shooter BEFORE he entered the building. So it appears an armed officer would have made no difference.

JL said:

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cms186 said:

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JL said:

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cms186 said:

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JL said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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JL said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Ghostrider said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

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. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

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Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

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How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

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From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

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Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

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Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

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You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

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Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

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Neither was Blacks or Women being able to vote, the Bill of Rights is a Living document, even the people who wrote it expected it to evolve over time

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:

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I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

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Passing gun control laws is not the same as a Constitutional Amendment, much different process.

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Im aware, im saying that the levels of Guns available to the average Citizen when the Bill of Rights was written are a world away from what you can get now, the 2nd amendment also says "Well Regulated", I would have thought that would give anyone enough scope to restrict what people can and cant buy on the open market without infringing on their right to be able to have a Pistol or something to defend themselves with in their own home if thats what they want

Redbrickbear said:

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cms186 said:

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JL said:

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cms186 said:

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JL said:

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J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't want to ban guns.

I just want to restrict who can buy them so troubled 18-year-old kids can't buy assault weapons the week after they turn 18 and kill 19 kids and 2 teachers in an elementary school. Does that sound like a reasonble goal to you?

---

. What is a troubled kid? What troubling thing in his life would have prevented him from getting a gun? Knowing that he was bullied? Knowing he failed 12th grade? Knowing he wore eyeliner? Serious questions.

---

Seems like most….if not all…including this one….had posted pics online of themselves with their stockpile of weapons. That seems to be a common red flag.

I'm not sure exactly what schools or police have an authority to do or investigate when online pics like that surface….but that seems to be a definite commonality with these shooters.

---

How about not selling people guns until they're old enough to legally drink alcohol?

Our society long ago concluded it was unwise to let teens drink adult beverages until they reached the minimum age of adulthood. Owning a gun is an adult responsibility.

My issue isn't with guns. They don't shoot themselves.

It's with the gun lobby's/politicians' complete failure to require people to exercise minimal care and responsibility in the sale of firearms and ammunition.

To get the guns this kid got, he should have been required to undergo gun safety training and get a license, like a hunting license. At his own expense. Tired of seeing "financial burden" arguments applied to gun safety training and licensing that conservatives don't accept when applied to the cost of healthcare and other basic necessities of life.

And, yes, if you want to own and use an assault weapon, you should be in a national database as the purchaser/owner of an assault weapon. There should be a clear public record of who has purchased assault weapons and ammo. The good guys who own these weapons proudly should have no problem with doing that on the record. And if somebody's assembling an arsenal to do a mass shooting, there should be ways to detect those purchases and investigate.

I'm really tired of an irresponsible level of "freedom" related to one specific product--guns--being valued far more than the lives and safety of children and other mass shooting victims.

It's also telling that there's a huge outcry about the 19 kids in Uvalde, but not so much of one about the racist shooter who carried out a carefully planned attack, right down to the body armor that made the "good guy with a gun" who was on the premises an inadequate defense against his attack, killing people for no other reason than because they lived in a black neighborhood and were shopping at their neighborhood grocery store.

---

From reading this, I can only assume you have very little knowledge of firearms and "freedom."

---

Then educate me.

Why should we have fewer restrictions on the purchase, ownership and use of lethal firearms and than we do on driving cars and drinking alcohol?

There are many areas of life in which we don't have unrestricted freedom. Conservatives obviously don't support unlimited freedom in many areas of life. Many are very eager to restrict the freedom of women and girls to make personal decisions for themselves, even in cases of rape or incest, the freedom of gay people to marry same-sex partners (some even favor laws outlawing certain sex acts most people do behind closed doors where the government should, IMO, never intrude), and the freedom of parents in the state of Texas to work with their children's doctors to make decisions about medical treatment without fear of having Child Protective Services show up.

So why should freedoms relating to the purchase of all types of guns and ammo be unrestricted when so many other freedoms are simultaneously at risk of being severely restricted or eliminated altogether?

If making sure deranged, angry teens can't easily arm up and kill more than 20 kids and teachers in an elementary school isn't pro-life, then what is?

It just strikes me as really ironic that conservatives claim to be pro-life and pro-child when they have done everything possible to make our country a very unfriendly place to have and raise children:

-high cost of child care,
-no paid parental leave for many workers (especially low-income workers who need it most),
-no secure access to medical care for many working-age people,
-few or no workplace accommodations for pregnant women,
-schools that aren't safe where kids are forced to do active shooter drills because the right of anybody over 18 to own and carry lethal assault weapons is valued much higher politically than the lives of little children,
-schools where the school boards are banning books and trying to force a sanitized version of American history into the curriculum,
-schools where one religion is clearly favored and endorsed over all others (a sore point with me--my high school in the 1960s couldn't even have a prom because our principal was Church of Christ and wouldn't permit a dance and my grade school had a Christmas pageant that my Jewish classmate participated in because his parents thought that might keep him from being bullied. I thought we'd moved beyond that pettiness, but we clearly haven't, despite living in a country founded on the principles of no state religion and separation of church and state.

And the strategy to cope with a declining birth rate? Forced birth, even in cases or rape or incest, reducing a woman to a "vessel" + restrictions on contraception. That dismissive attitude toward woman as people whose personal agency and freedom also matters is what made it to easy for Paige Patterson and his ilk to flourish in the SBC for so many years.

What's sad is, the gun lobby and its Republican enablers will just wait this out. As they have every other mass shooting. If Sandy Hook and Parkland, where most of the victims were white middle-class kids, didn't spark change, a small-town school where most victims are Hispanic certainly won't. Which is a sick commentary on a supposedly Christian nation where "in Christ there is no east or west, in him no north or south, but one great fellowship of love..."

Love is not what those kids felt when they were shot to death in Uvalde. Shame on us as a nation.

---

Again, you obviously have never bought a firearm and know nothing about guns other than what CNN has told you.

I've never had to have a backgound check to buy a car or alcohol.

---

You had to take a Driving Test to be able to drive didnt you? You have to have Insurance to drive, in case an accident happens whilst you are driving, right? I dont know about the US, but asides from New Vehicles (I think they are exempt for the first 5 years? not 100% sure about that), our Cars are subject to yearly checks to make sure they are fit to drive

---

Car ownership is not in the Bill of Rights. Should you have to take a test to be able to vote?

---

Neither was Blacks or Women being able to vote, the Bill of Rights is a Living document, even the people who wrote it expected it to evolve over time

Thomas Jefferson:

Quote:

---

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

---

---

The Bill of Rights (and rest of the Constitution) seems very much to anticipate the expansion of new rights as the people and their representatives deem them needed or justified.

But it certainly does not imply that any already created and established Rights can ever be restricted.

So as an example the right of women to vote can be given...the right to vote for men can never be taken away.

The right to own space lasers might be give in the future...the right to own guns can never be taken away.

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A virtually unlimited right to bear arms is a right invented in the last 20 years or so by SCOTUS. No previous SCOTUS affirmed that right.

It was hypocritical of Alito to excoriate the court for "finding" a right to abortion, when the conservative SCOTUS "found" a virtually unlimited right to bear arms that wasn't in the Constitution.

For some reason they erased the phrase "as part of a well-armed militia" in order to find this right.

All that being said, it's pointless to seek gun control today. The current SCOTUS will allow no limits. In fact, it's poised to expand gun rights even more.

Sadly, we must seek answers elsewhere.