Russia mobilizes

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Bear8084
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Canada2017 said:

Bear8084 said:

Canada2017 said:

trey3216 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




and again, you ignore that Ukraine has been actively trying to pull itself out of Russian orbit for much longer than that. The fact that you can't even acknowledge that FACT is incomprehensible.
I absolutely accept the fact that MOST of Ukrainians want to ( justifiably ) pull out of the Russian orbit .

But you keep attempting to frame this mess within very simplistic parameters .

There are thousands of ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be part of this transition. They have been fighting a civil war for years .

And exactly how is this mess in the vital strategic interests of the United States ? Why is it worth tens of billions of dollars to US taxpayers who will inevitably get stuck with the tab ?



An invasion isn't a civil war. Never has been.
Civil war has been ongoing since 2014.

One can certainly point to illegal Russian participation in the civil war........but to pretend that of thousands ethnic Russians living in Ukraine aren't involved......is ludicrous .


There was no popular support until the Russians got involved and started propping up criminals and quislings. Most of those fighting are either drafted men or Russian soldiers. Calling it a civil war, when it is most assuredly not, buys into Russian propaganda of having to "defend" the fake republics. Thought I cleared that up, but I guess not.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bear8084 said:

Canada2017 said:

Bear8084 said:

Canada2017 said:

trey3216 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




and again, you ignore that Ukraine has been actively trying to pull itself out of Russian orbit for much longer than that. The fact that you can't even acknowledge that FACT is incomprehensible.
I absolutely accept the fact that MOST of Ukrainians want to ( justifiably ) pull out of the Russian orbit .

But you keep attempting to frame this mess within very simplistic parameters .

There are thousands of ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be part of this transition. They have been fighting a civil war for years .

And exactly how is this mess in the vital strategic interests of the United States ? Why is it worth tens of billions of dollars to US taxpayers who will inevitably get stuck with the tab ?



An invasion isn't a civil war. Never has been.
Civil war has been ongoing since 2014.

One can certainly point to illegal Russian participation in the civil war........but to pretend that of thousands ethnic Russians living in Ukraine aren't involved......is ludicrous .


There was no popular support until the Russians got involved and started propping up criminals and quislings. Most of those fighting are either drafted men or Russian soldiers. Calling it a civil war, when it is most assuredly not, buys into Russian propaganda of having to "defend" the fake republics. Thought I cleared that up, but I guess not.
One man's 'criminal' is another man's patriot . usually depends who wins and gets to write the history books.

George Washington ---patriot .
Jefferson Davis ---- criminal


Regardless.....for many decades and under at least a dozen US administrations .....whatever happened in Ukraine was not considered of critical importance to the United States.

Now magically it is .

Maybe Hunter Biden can explain this incredible transformation .
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.

And just for reference, it was Trump who started allowing offensive weapons to be sent to Ukraine. Putin's plan predates election 2020.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The thousands of civilians murdered in Ukraine would like a word with you about your relative morality, Canada.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.


No argument....Putin totally screwed up . Both he and Biden miscalculated ....that's how wars usually start.


OK , just for arguments sake this war has nothing to do with NATO.
One would have to believe the reverse ....the United States would be perfectly OK with Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact.

Of course we would passively accept such a threat ....naturally .


But there are a few other niceties .

1. US actively supporting the election of an anti Russian president ( who then won ).
2. the installation of US troops and military 'advisors' into Ukraine
3. the development of US biolabs in Ukraine.
4. reported US-Ukrainian money laundering ( unproven )


All involving a country the United States has never given 2 ****s about for over 80 years.

Now magically we are dumping tens of billions of dollars into its defense and economy . Magically placing an airborne division near the Ukrainian border that haven't been stationed in Europe for decades. Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ( a US policy FIRST )

Utilizing US commercial satellites to aid Ukrainian military forces.



And no one asks or cares......WHY NOW ?
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.


No argument....Putin totally screwed up . Both he and Biden miscalculated ....that's how wars usually start.


OK , just for arguments sake this war has nothing to do with NATO.
One would have to believe the reverse ....the United States would be perfectly OK with Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact.

Of course we would passively accept such a threat ....naturally .


But there are a few other niceties .

1. US actively supporting the election of an anti Russian president ( who then won ).
2. the installation of US troops and military 'advisors' into Ukraine
3. the development of US biolabs in Ukraine.
4. reported US-Ukrainian money laundering ( unproven )


All involving a country the United States has never given 2 ****s about for over 80 years.

Now magically we are dumping tens of billions of dollars into its defense and economy . Magically placing an airborne division near the Ukrainian border that haven't been stationed in Europe for decades. Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ( a US policy FIRST )

Utilizing US commercial satellites to aid Ukrainian military forces.



And no one asks or cares......WHY NOW ?
The short answer to your question is that by invading Ukraine, Russia went from a passive to an active threat.

As to your points:
1. We support candidates/movements all over the world in a multitude of countries. The candidate wasn't anti-Russian but pro EU membership. Foreign countries do the same in the US, from allies like Germany and Israel, to foes like Russia and China. It's part of the game.
2. Trump sold them weapons. They needed to know how to use them.
3. There's a multitude of reasons, but they're not relevant to the Russian invasion.
4. Ukraine still suffers from corruption. You'd be shocked how many nations have US money laundering operations. Ukraine is a minor player in that game.

As far as locating military units closer to Ukraine, it's a logical move given the uncertainty of Russia. Will they decide to take a swipe at an actual NATO country now? The irrational decision of Russa on Ukraine requires at least some level of preparation for that scenario.

Ukraine has been trying to get away from Russia for a very long time. Now Russia has invaded in order to control the nation. They're doing this with the support of China. A future combination of Russia and China on territorial and resource expansion presents a tremendous strategic interest for the US. It's playing out in Ukraine right now.

And for what it's worth, my redline has always been US troops fighting on the ground in Ukraine.
Bear8084
How long do you want to ignore this user?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/15/blog-posting/pentagon-didnt-admit-there-are-46-us-funded-biolab/
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.


No argument....Putin totally screwed up . Both he and Biden miscalculated ....that's how wars usually start.


OK , just for arguments sake this war has nothing to do with NATO.
One would have to believe the reverse ....the United States would be perfectly OK with Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact.

Of course we would passively accept such a threat ....naturally .


But there are a few other niceties .

1. US actively supporting the election of an anti Russian president ( who then won ).
2. the installation of US troops and military 'advisors' into Ukraine
3. the development of US biolabs in Ukraine.
4. reported US-Ukrainian money laundering ( unproven )


All involving a country the United States has never given 2 ****s about for over 80 years.

Now magically we are dumping tens of billions of dollars into its defense and economy . Magically placing an airborne division near the Ukrainian border that haven't been stationed in Europe for decades. Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ( a US policy FIRST )

Utilizing US commercial satellites to aid Ukrainian military forces.



And no one asks or cares......WHY NOW ?
The short answer to your question is that by invading Ukraine, Russia went from a passive to an active threat.

As to your points:
1. We support candidates/movements all over the world in a multitude of countries. The candidate wasn't anti-Russian but pro EU membership. Foreign countries do the same in the US, from allies like Germany and Israel, to foes like Russia and China. It's part of the game.
2. Trump sold them weapons. They needed to know how to use them.
3. There's a multitude of reasons, but they're not relevant to the Russian invasion.
4. Ukraine still suffers from corruption. You'd be shocked how many nations have US money laundering operations. Ukraine is a minor player in that game.

As far as locating military units closer to Ukraine, it's a logical move given the uncertainty of Russia. Will they decide to take a swipe at an actual NATO country now? The irrational decision of Russa on Ukraine requires at least some level of preparation for that scenario.

Ukraine has been trying to get away from Russia for a very long time. Now Russia has invaded in order to control the nation. They're doing this with the support of China. A future combination of Russia and China on territorial and resource expansion presents a tremendous strategic interest for the US. It's playing out in Ukraine right now.

And for what it's worth, my redline has always been US troops fighting on the ground in Ukraine.
My red line domestically is utilizing the DOJ and FBI to assault the house of a former president of the United States . I now consider Biden to be deranged .

My red line internationally is much like yours .......the placement of US ground troops in an active combat zone.
But the sabotage of other country's natural gas pipelines in international waters changed my perspective.
Since Biden is deranged there is NOTHING he can't **** up .



How some of you guys now trust his judgment is beyond my understanding .
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.


No argument....Putin totally screwed up . Both he and Biden miscalculated ....that's how wars usually start.


OK , just for arguments sake this war has nothing to do with NATO.
One would have to believe the reverse ....the United States would be perfectly OK with Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact.

Of course we would passively accept such a threat ....naturally .


But there are a few other niceties .

1. US actively supporting the election of an anti Russian president ( who then won ).
2. the installation of US troops and military 'advisors' into Ukraine
3. the development of US biolabs in Ukraine.
4. reported US-Ukrainian money laundering ( unproven )


All involving a country the United States has never given 2 ****s about for over 80 years.

Now magically we are dumping tens of billions of dollars into its defense and economy . Magically placing an airborne division near the Ukrainian border that haven't been stationed in Europe for decades. Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ( a US policy FIRST )

Utilizing US commercial satellites to aid Ukrainian military forces.



And no one asks or cares......WHY NOW ?
The short answer to your question is that by invading Ukraine, Russia went from a passive to an active threat.

As to your points:
1. We support candidates/movements all over the world in a multitude of countries. The candidate wasn't anti-Russian but pro EU membership. Foreign countries do the same in the US, from allies like Germany and Israel, to foes like Russia and China. It's part of the game.
2. Trump sold them weapons. They needed to know how to use them.
3. There's a multitude of reasons, but they're not relevant to the Russian invasion.
4. Ukraine still suffers from corruption. You'd be shocked how many nations have US money laundering operations. Ukraine is a minor player in that game.

As far as locating military units closer to Ukraine, it's a logical move given the uncertainty of Russia. Will they decide to take a swipe at an actual NATO country now? The irrational decision of Russa on Ukraine requires at least some level of preparation for that scenario.

Ukraine has been trying to get away from Russia for a very long time. Now Russia has invaded in order to control the nation. They're doing this with the support of China. A future combination of Russia and China on territorial and resource expansion presents a tremendous strategic interest for the US. It's playing out in Ukraine right now.

And for what it's worth, my redline has always been US troops fighting on the ground in Ukraine.
My red line domestically is utilizing the DOJ and FBI to assault the house of a former president of the United States . I now consider Biden to be deranged .

My red line internationally is much like yours .......the placement of US ground troops in an active combat zone.
But the sabotage of other country's natural gas pipelines in international waters changed my perspective.
Since Biden is deranged there is NOTHING he can't **** up .



How some of you guys now trust his judgment is beyond my understanding .

My red line is the same. My redline is also spying on American citizens and creating terrorists and insurrectionists of political foes. I've seen too many places where political reprisal is a blood sport.

It isn't that I trust Biden's judgement. But I won't call something a mistake until mistakes are made. There are many people involved in these processes, so I'll take an assessment of the situation as it progresses.

But in reverence to the man who put the Russians in Eastern Ukraine, here's a photo I took recently of the local party in power in Puducherry, India. Crazy to think the man is honored in Marxist spots around the globe.

FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?
i think you are reaching. There is no proof the US blew the pipeline. And placing troops in an NATO country is not escalating.. We re talking one brigade of light infantry.

Russia is escalating.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

ATL Bear said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




There were a lot of off ramps for Putin that would have not required invasion in order to get a NATO concession. Instead he was the one pulling some Rambo bull***** He did not have to invade due to any NATO inferences or bluster. But here is the fallacy at the core of your argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Repeated again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NATO. Russia has been securing the Eurasian pathway for energy pipelines and distribution FOR DECADES. Annexing strategic areas in Southern Asia and Southeastern Europe has been Russia's pathway for decades now. This is about Ukraine looking West instead of East for their economic future. The Russians are actually targeting and destroying assets of Ukrainian oligarchs that have no strategic military interest, or appropriating them in Russian controlled areas. They're installing pro-Russian oligarchs in power positions of Crimea and the new Donbas regional puppet government. This is classical imperialism at work here. The NATO argument is a ruse to try and gain empathy from anti-American sentiment.


No argument....Putin totally screwed up . Both he and Biden miscalculated ....that's how wars usually start.


OK , just for arguments sake this war has nothing to do with NATO.
One would have to believe the reverse ....the United States would be perfectly OK with Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact.

Of course we would passively accept such a threat ....naturally .


But there are a few other niceties .

1. US actively supporting the election of an anti Russian president ( who then won ).
2. the installation of US troops and military 'advisors' into Ukraine
3. the development of US biolabs in Ukraine.
4. reported US-Ukrainian money laundering ( unproven )


All involving a country the United States has never given 2 ****s about for over 80 years.

Now magically we are dumping tens of billions of dollars into its defense and economy . Magically placing an airborne division near the Ukrainian border that haven't been stationed in Europe for decades. Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ( a US policy FIRST )

Utilizing US commercial satellites to aid Ukrainian military forces.



And no one asks or cares......WHY NOW ?
The short answer to your question is that by invading Ukraine, Russia went from a passive to an active threat.

As to your points:
1. We support candidates/movements all over the world in a multitude of countries. The candidate wasn't anti-Russian but pro EU membership. Foreign countries do the same in the US, from allies like Germany and Israel, to foes like Russia and China. It's part of the game.
2. Trump sold them weapons. They needed to know how to use them.
3. There's a multitude of reasons, but they're not relevant to the Russian invasion.
4. Ukraine still suffers from corruption. You'd be shocked how many nations have US money laundering operations. Ukraine is a minor player in that game.

As far as locating military units closer to Ukraine, it's a logical move given the uncertainty of Russia. Will they decide to take a swipe at an actual NATO country now? The irrational decision of Russa on Ukraine requires at least some level of preparation for that scenario.

Ukraine has been trying to get away from Russia for a very long time. Now Russia has invaded in order to control the nation. They're doing this with the support of China. A future combination of Russia and China on territorial and resource expansion presents a tremendous strategic interest for the US. It's playing out in Ukraine right now.

And for what it's worth, my redline has always been US troops fighting on the ground in Ukraine.
My red line domestically is utilizing the DOJ and FBI to assault the house of a former president of the United States . I now consider Biden to be deranged .

My red line internationally is much like yours .......the placement of US ground troops in an active combat zone.
But the sabotage of other country's natural gas pipelines in international waters changed my perspective.
Since Biden is deranged there is NOTHING he can't **** up .



How some of you guys now trust his judgment is beyond my understanding .

My red line is the same. My redline is also spying on American citizens and creating terrorists and insurrectionists of political foes. I've seen too many places where political reprisal is a blood sport.

It isn't that I trust Biden's judgement. But I won't call something a mistake until mistakes are made. There are many people involved in these processes, so I'll take an assessment of the situation as it progresses.

But in reverence to the man who put the Russians in Eastern Ukraine, here's a photo I took recently of the local party in power in Puducherry, India. Crazy to think the man is honored in Marxist spots around the globe.


I understand your position....simply disagree that it is in US national interest to take such an active role in Ukraine . As we never have before .

There are plenty of massacres, invasions and injustices in Africa that we have never bothered with either .

Yes, I rank Stalin as every big of a murderer as Hitler and Pol Pot ....exceeded only by Mao Zedong .

But Putin ( and many other older Russians ) regards Stalin as a hero...someone to emulate .

Very concerning .
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
Huh? What about REFORGER? Also, we have had numerous Divisions in Europe for 80 years.

173rd is in Italy and have been for a long time.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
Huh? What about REFORGER? Also, we have had numerous Divisions in Europe for 80 years.

173rd is in Italy and have been for a long time.
Reference was clearly in made to the deployment of the 101st. not the 173rd. But in respect to your comment I looked up REFORGER .

See no deployment of the 101st involving REFORGER since the mid 70's and none involving an entire brigade.

Maybe you think such minutiae is critically important ....but of course its not. For 80 years the US has had a hands off attitude toward Ukraine .

Now its somehow worth tens of billions of dollars to the American taxpayer and the possibility of open warfare with Russia .

Why ?
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
Huh? What about REFORGER? Also, we have had numerous Divisions in Europe for 80 years.

173rd is in Italy and have been for a long time.
Reference was clearly in made to the deployment of the 101st. not the 173rd. But in respect to your comment I looked up REFORGER .

See no deployment of the 101st involving REFORGER since the mid 70's and none involving an entire brigade.

Maybe you think such minutiae is critically important ....but of course its not. For 80 years the US has had a hands off attitude toward Ukraine .

Now its somehow worth tens of billions of dollars to the American taxpayer and the possibility of open warfare with Russia .

Why ?
We have more than one Division. 101st is or was a Rapid Deployment Unit. Probably means they came up on the rotation. Did he say the significance of the 101st being there instead of 82nd, 24th Mech, 6th Cav or even 173rd from Italy.?
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
Huh? What about REFORGER? Also, we have had numerous Divisions in Europe for 80 years.

173rd is in Italy and have been for a long time.
Reference was clearly in made to the deployment of the 101st. not the 173rd. But in respect to your comment I looked up REFORGER .

See no deployment of the 101st involving REFORGER since the mid 70's and none involving an entire brigade.

Maybe you think such minutiae is critically important ....but of course its not. For 80 years the US has had a hands off attitude toward Ukraine .

Now its somehow worth tens of billions of dollars to the American taxpayer and the possibility of open warfare with Russia .

Why ?
We have more than one Division. 101st is or was a Rapid Deployment Unit. Probably means they came up on the rotation. Did he say the significance of the 101st being there instead of 82nd, 24th Mech, 6th Cav or even 173rd from Italy.?
Only that the 101st is one of the best trained combat units in the entire army .

For the record this retired colonel has been a close friend of mine for over 30 years . First met him when he was stationed at Fort Bliss Texas.

A devout Christian and wonderful family man .

He is confident in the abilities of the 101st to take 'it ' to anyone they face. But also emphasized they are not in this deployment for training purposes.
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......chose to remind you of your well earned mediocrity .

Have a wonderful evening .


Canada2017
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......enjoy reminding you what a life long mediocrity you have always been .

Hope you got some overtime pay tonight .


Canada2017
Thanks for showing everyone what your level of class and character is, Canada.

You are a paranoid liar with delusions that no one has caught you out yet.

You are - as is sadly common now - very wrong.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......enjoy reminding you what a life long mediocrity you have always been .

Hope you got some overtime pay tonight .


Canada2017
Thanks for showing everyone what your level of class and character is, Canada.

You are a paranoid liar with delusions that no one has caught you out yet.

You are - as is sadly common now - very wrong.
Clown you always initiate these pleasant exchanges .

And I almost always give you at least one free jab without reply.

But after the 2nd.........LOL.....you then try to play the victim .


So amusing .
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......enjoy reminding you what a life long mediocrity you have always been .

Hope you got some overtime pay tonight .


Canada2017
Thanks for showing everyone what your level of class and character is, Canada.

You are a paranoid liar with delusions that no one has caught you out yet.

You are - as is sadly common now - very wrong.
"kick every barking Chihuahua I see."

By the way, I admit I am uncertain if that comment means you go out looking to kick people's pets at times, or you have reached the point where you are hallucinating small canines on a regular basis.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......enjoy reminding you what a life long mediocrity you have always been .

Hope you got some overtime pay tonight .


Canada2017
Thanks for showing everyone what your level of class and character is, Canada.

You are a paranoid liar with delusions that no one has caught you out yet.

You are - as is sadly common now - very wrong.
Clown you always initiate these pleasant exchanges .

And I almost always give you at least one free jab without reply.

But after the 2nd.........LOL.....you then try to play the victim .


So amusing .
Dude, the difference between you and Biden, is that it's reasonable to conclude that his dementia means he doesn't realize he is acting a fool.

In this thread and especially this exchange, you have out-done Brandon for sheer lunacy.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Canada2017 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Someone tell Canada's doc he's run out of Xanax again.
Private security guard.....isn't it time for you to punch your time card ?
You're still the same liar on that topic, I see.

False claims mixed with Virtue Signaling, that's you Canada.


Dumb ass....as usual I let your first insult slide.

After all I don't bother to kick every barking Chihuahua I see.

But on the 2nd jab......enjoy reminding you what a life long mediocrity you have always been .

Hope you got some overtime pay tonight .


Canada2017
Thanks for showing everyone what your level of class and character is, Canada.

You are a paranoid liar with delusions that no one has caught you out yet.

You are - as is sadly common now - very wrong.
Clown you always initiate these pleasant exchanges .

And I almost always give you at least one free jab without reply.

But after the 2nd.........LOL.....you then try to play the victim .


So amusing .
Dude, the difference between you and Biden, is that it's reasonable to conclude that his dementia means he doesn't realize he is acting a fool.

In this thread and especially this exchange, you have out-done Brandon for sheer lunacy.


LOL

Do you REALLY think I care what an old man of your limited accomplishments thinks ?

There are several men on this thread who are worth discussing topics with ......they have experience and the intelligence to disagree or agree as they see fit.

You aren't one of them .


Have a wonderful evening .
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm not the delusional paranoid who sees nuclear war in the next 5 days or who has to lie about someone's career to help their own self image.

Have a good evening, Canada. Don't kick anyone's pets for a while, ok?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

I'm not the delusional paranoid who sees nuclear war in the next 5 days or who has to lie about someone's career to help their own self image.

Have a good evening, Canada. Don't kick anyone's pets for a while, ok?
Fella....you ALWAYS initiate these little pleasantries .

Most often you throw at least 2 jabs before I even bother making a response .

So exactly how do you still figure yourself to be the 'victim ' ?

Some weird sense of message board entitlement ?
FLBear5630
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Canada2017 said:

Bear8084 said:

Canada2017 said:

Bear8084 said:

Canada2017 said:

trey3216 said:

Canada2017 said:

Golem said:

Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

whiterock said:

Canada2017 said:

.
Quote:

Quote:


How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.

Just got to be kidding.

1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.

2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.

We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)


3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.

Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order
."

Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .

But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.

Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.


THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..

NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.

So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.

Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!


If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .

WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.

God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****

Wars have begun involving far less.


Pour a scotch. Chill.



A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?

I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........






Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?

If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).

Similarly.....

I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.

Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.

I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.





So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?

That's comforting.

The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .

Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .

But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.

Can't possibly agree with your expectations.

Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.


Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.

We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.

it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.






The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.




and again, you ignore that Ukraine has been actively trying to pull itself out of Russian orbit for much longer than that. The fact that you can't even acknowledge that FACT is incomprehensible.
I absolutely accept the fact that MOST of Ukrainians want to ( justifiably ) pull out of the Russian orbit .

But you keep attempting to frame this mess within very simplistic parameters .

There are thousands of ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be part of this transition. They have been fighting a civil war for years .

And exactly how is this mess in the vital strategic interests of the United States ? Why is it worth tens of billions of dollars to US taxpayers who will inevitably get stuck with the tab ?



An invasion isn't a civil war. Never has been.
Civil war has been ongoing since 2014.

One can certainly point to illegal Russian participation in the civil war........but to pretend that of thousands ethnic Russians living in Ukraine aren't involved......is ludicrous .


There was no popular support until the Russians got involved and started propping up criminals and quislings. Most of those fighting are either drafted men or Russian soldiers. Calling it a civil war, when it is most assuredly not, buys into Russian propaganda of having to "defend" the fake republics. Thought I cleared that up, but I guess not.
One man's 'criminal' is another man's patriot . usually depends who wins and gets to write the history books.

George Washington ---patriot .
Jefferson Davis ---- criminal


Regardless.....for many decades and under at least a dozen US administrations .....whatever happened in Ukraine was not considered of critical importance to the United States.

Now magically it is .

Maybe Hunter Biden can explain this incredible transformation .
I don't agree that Ukraine has not been of importance and now magically it it. It has pretty much been front and center since 1991. So much so we brokered and signed the non-binding Budapest Memorandum to now. That is 30 years, not exactly no strategic importance.
Oldbear83
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Just so we're clear, Canada, I am no victim. That's you, with all those self-inflicted rake walks from your posts.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
FLBear5630
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Canada,

Totally agree with every thing you said. 101st is a top notch unit. "Dope on a Rope" are one of the best in the world. : ) (Used to have a Baylor/Aggie relationship with them when I was in the 82nd... Nothing but playful respect.)

I was curious if his view of the Air Mobil (101st) capabilities versus straight Airborne (82nd), Mech Infantry (24th), Shock Troops (Ranger), Cav (6th) or straight Infantry (9th) played into the decision. My info is dated, but I think those are the Rapid Deployment Units we have or if we even think about them that way anymore. Been a long time since I have had this type of conversation. You probably guessed I am a logistics, infrastructure and mission wonk.

I know you find it distasteful that non-infantry types play a role in these decisions, so I thank you for your patience with us logistic/support infrastructure types. My heroes from WW2 were not Patton, but Marshall and Eisenhower, the people that understood how to bring the right resources, including people, to bear on a problem.
Canada2017
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RMF5630 said:

Canada,

Totally agree with every thing you said. 101st is a top notch unit. "Dope on a Rope" are one of the best in the world. : ) (Used to have a Baylor/Aggie relationship with them when I was in the 82nd... Nothing but playful respect.)

I was curious if his view of the Air Mobil (101st) capabilities versus straight Airborne (82nd), Mech Infantry (24th), Shock Troops (Ranger), Cav (6th) or straight Infantry (9th) played into the decision. My info is dated, but I think those are the Rapid Deployment Units we have or if we even think about them that way anymore. Been a long time since I have had this type of conversation. You probably guessed I am a logistics, infrastructure and mission wonk.

I know you find it distasteful that non-infantry types play a role in these decisions, so I thank you for your patience with us logistic/support infrastructure types. My heroes from WW2 were not Patton, but Marshall and Eisenhower, the people that understood how to bring the right resources, including people, to bear on a problem.


The colonel , myself and our wives rarely get that deep into such discussions.

However after over 30 years of friendship…. I have come to admire and trust the man. His opinions carry weight with me .

Bottom line….

Jan believes the 101st is a crack combat unit . Placed near the Ukrainian border to effectively enter the battle if ordered . That this is no 'training ' mission .

We didn't discuss the ramifications of such deployments as I have long known Jan is all about following orders from upper echelons.

And I have too much respect for the man to ruin a pleasant evening.

BTW your work is appreciated.

I simply have attended enough military funerals.

Don't want our dementia stricken commander in chief to bring on still more…….especially when our strategic national interests are not remotely involved.
FLBear5630
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Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Canada,

Totally agree with every thing you said. 101st is a top notch unit. "Dope on a Rope" are one of the best in the world. : ) (Used to have a Baylor/Aggie relationship with them when I was in the 82nd... Nothing but playful respect.)

I was curious if his view of the Air Mobil (101st) capabilities versus straight Airborne (82nd), Mech Infantry (24th), Shock Troops (Ranger), Cav (6th) or straight Infantry (9th) played into the decision. My info is dated, but I think those are the Rapid Deployment Units we have or if we even think about them that way anymore. Been a long time since I have had this type of conversation. You probably guessed I am a logistics, infrastructure and mission wonk.

I know you find it distasteful that non-infantry types play a role in these decisions, so I thank you for your patience with us logistic/support infrastructure types. My heroes from WW2 were not Patton, but Marshall and Eisenhower, the people that understood how to bring the right resources, including people, to bear on a problem.


The colonel , myself and our wives rarely get that deep into such discussions.

However after over 30 years of friendship…. I have come to admire and trust the man. His opinions carry weight with me .

Bottom line….

Jan believes the 101st is a crack combat unit . Placed near the Ukrainian border to effectively enter the battle if ordered . That this is no 'training ' mission .

We didn't discuss the ramifications of such deployments as I have long known Jan is all about following orders from upper echelons.

And I have too much respect for the man to ruin a pleasant evening.

BTW your work is appreciated.

I simply have attended enough military funerals.

Don't want our dementia stricken commander in chief to bring on still more…….especially when our strategic national interests are not remotely involved.
Well, I agree on Biden. I have faith in people like your friend, they are consummate professionals. I am not sure what one RDF Brigade would do, especially Air Mobil against Armor. They would be good at spot insertions. My guess, would be the airports, weapons depots, nuclear or bio facilities, go in and secure until Cavalry arrives.

As well as send a message, but we used to joke when I was in an RDF Division. The alert Brigade is a speed bump. Similar to what the Cav was in the old Fulda Gap schemes, slow em down.

By the way, my experience in these types of units is WAY OLD and lower enlisted. We alerted numerous times, including Libya, and I went on one UN Peacekeeping in the Sinai when things were expected to get hairy. But that is it. Nothing like the Iraq and Afghanistan guys. So, this is old guy speculation for discussion..
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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"Can we all just get along?" - RIP Rodney King
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"

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whiterock
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Canada2017 said:


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:







The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .

And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .

Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '

Until we got tired of burying our people into it .

Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .

Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .

Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.

Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.

Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .

Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .

I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.

In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.

Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........


is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?


Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?



Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.

How deep is your bunker?
How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )

Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .

Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .

Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.


Now you are a smart guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.

Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .


Insanity



Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.






Personally, I think the professionals at the Pentagon learned their lesson in Afghanistan. They seem to have things tightened down on this one. Not gonna let that happen again.


Ok....fair enough....based on exactly what do you have this new found faith in Pentagon professionalism ?

Blowing up natural gas pipelines in international waters ?

Placing 4700 light infantry troops with limited armor and artillery support within striking distance of an
'incident' ?

That brigade is INSIDE a NATO country. We station and move troops around inside Nato all the time. We would be obligated to respond to an attack even if our troops weren't there.

This redeployment poses negligible elevated risk to US troops.
But it does elevate the risk for Russia.
And they know it.
Not according to my old buddy ...retired colonel US Army.....who's son is currently a major at Fort Carson .

According to Jan this is the first time an entire brigade of the 101st has been sent to Europe since the end of WW2. If you really think this is a coincidence I have some Enron stock to sell you .

It 'elevates' the risk to all of us. And again we should all be asking


WHY NOW ? After over 80 years of official US indifference.
WHY? Because Putin is out of control. And Russia is under stress. Russia has escalated. Attacking purely civilian targets. Bringing in Iranian advisors. Making wild verbal statements. This is the time when desperate measures might happen. That means it is time for us to remind Russia to be very, very, very careful.

And how do we do that?

We reposition some troops where we have the right to do so. Some crack troops. Who've not been deployed to EUR since WWII. And we reposition them where he can see them. Right where he's most likely to invade (Poland/Romania) should he decide to escalate. Right where he will encounter them FIRST, should he get happy about crossing borders. A single brigade is no actual threat to invade in UKR. It is a speed bump.....it is a guarantee that if Russia crosses a border, he WILL come into contact with US troops. And that has enormous ramifications. Bad ramifications.....for Russia. And do we air-drop this brigade into place? nah. Do we bring them in via airlift? Nah. We bring them by boat. Slowly. Then put them into rail cars. One at a time. We don't want Vlad to miss a single moment of it. >>>>> Clear your throat for attention. Pull out your stilletto. Calmly slice off a thin pat of butter. Let the blade clink on the porcelain plate as it hits bottom. Pause for a second. Twist your wrist enough to lay over the pat of butter. Pause. Then do the same thing again. Gently poke one of the pats of butter with the tip of the stilletto. Pull it up in the air. Admire the geometry of the pat of butter, how it curled slightly from the cut. Then reach over and make a short stab into a strawberry in the fruit bowl. Then come back to the cool butter on the plate. Gently insert the stilletto into that second pat of butter, pushing the first one and the strawberry slowly up the blade, creating an oreo cookie out of butter and strawberry. Hold it up again. Marvel at the juxtaposition of color and texture between the butter and strawberry. Make sure light glints off the stiletto blade right across Vlad's face. Then put the red & yellow oreo in your mouth, close your lips around the stilletto blade. Slowly pull it out, leaving the Strawberry/Butter Oreo in your mouth. Sallow it whole. Cross your legs and clean off the blade on your socks, which do not match. Let a faint hint of a smile appear as you make eye contact with Vlad, for just a moment. Then lay the stilletto out on the table in plain sight and calmly go back to eating breakfast.

We do have a right to move troops around inside our own geography. Nothing wrong with that. We do it all the time. To the extent that THIS move sends diplomatic signals.....GOOD. It would be highly irresponsible to allow Putin to miscalculate that we are less than DEAD serious about Nato, about the territorial integrity of Nato countries, about our commitment to defend every single one of them as if they were the 51st state.. Do not even think about escalating this war, Vlad. It would be suicide.

And to the extent that a regiment or two of airborne assault troops in Romania is a threat to seize a bridge in Crimea, or a regiment or two of airborne assault troops in Poland is a threat to facilities in Kaliningrad.....well.....that is the beauty of it all. It reminds Putin that he is neither the biggest nor meanest guy in the room. That we are in perfect position to clean his clock and there's nothing he can do about it. So he better be pretty damned careful not to piss US off.

Canada. Buddy. Now is not the time to let your opponent get the faintest hint of squeamishness. Now is the time to remind him that he's in a dreadfully exposed condition, and his only way out is to return to his own borders. THAT is how you avoid a wider war. Your instincts here are 100% counter-productive, more likely to cause scenarios you fear than prevent them.

https://www.army.mil/article/260984/101st_lifeliners_deploy_to_europe_through_slovenian_port_facility
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