Canada2017 said:Civil war has been ongoing since 2014.Bear8084 said:Canada2017 said:I absolutely accept the fact that MOST of Ukrainians want to ( justifiably ) pull out of the Russian orbit .trey3216 said:and again, you ignore that Ukraine has been actively trying to pull itself out of Russian orbit for much longer than that. The fact that you can't even acknowledge that FACT is incomprehensible.Canada2017 said:How deep is your psychosis ? ( see its easy to insult others.... now lets get back to the facts )Golem said:Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:I disagree that it does not work in the long term. There have been failures, no doubt. But, Germany, Japan, Korea, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Hawaii, Guantanamo, Italy, Bahrain, England, and I believe you will see Poland enter into the realm of Nations the US helped be free and still have either become States, US Territories or forward bases. There are more, just not well versed in them.Canada2017 said:whiterock said:Your fears would have a lot more gravity if we were doing anything more than shipping arms/ammo to Ukraine, and providing limited training assistance. To accept your argument that such limited involvement is an existential threat is to effectively emasculate US power. It is not a case for peace. It is a case for isolationism.Canada2017 said:whiterock said:I am very hard on Oso and Sam, et al....for deciding not to support the Republican party just because they don't like the captain of the ship (or in Sam's case actually trying to start a mutiny).Canada2017 said:whiterock said:Pour a scotch. Chill.Canada2017 said:
.Just got to be kidding.Quote:Quote:
How is this germane to anything today? Are you just mad at the US or is there something of relevance here? Maybe you're pro-Putin or Russia, I don't know. We're giving weapons to a country fighting an invader. They want to fight the invader. All the other BS aside, that's what's happening. We're not even giving them real serious weapons, so we're even showing restraint and deference to escalation. I'm not understanding your angles here.
1. Pointed out that Russia is protecting its national security rejecting still another country attempting to allow NATO forces along its border. Just like the US would do if Russia attempt to change the status quo in Mexico. Nato did not attempt to deploy troops to Ukraine. Nato has not yeven admitted Ukraine. Ukraine did not even apply to Nato until less than 30 days ago. Nato is not going to admit Ukraine until Russia is defeated, and terms/timetable will be part of the Ukrainian reconstruction IF/when it's approved, which it may not be. More likely will be the partnership arrangement Sweden and Finland enjoyed.
2. The someone stated the US would never invade Mexico under such circumstances . Well guess what....the historical record clearly shows the US has REPEADEDLY invaded countries here in the western hemisphere.
I said we would not invade Mexico to stop Russian arms/ammo shipments. I said we WOULD invade Mexico should Russia land troops there. And in such a scenario President Whiterock would go further than that. Any Russian naval vessel not in port would be sunk. Any Russian aircraft not on or over Russian soil would be shot down. And a combined arms operation involving 100k+ US troops would invade Mexico to seek/destroy the Russian Army, remnants of which would parade as POWS down the docks of the Port of Houston in front the entire assembled US media to document their safe delivery into the hands of UN transport ships for their return voyage via the Panama Canal to Vladivostok. Let Russia get them home via their decrepit Siberian Railway.
We would have little trouble accomplishing any of that.
(and Putin knows it. a scenario so silly it's hardly worth mentioning...and not remotely analogous to what's happening in Ukraine.)
3. THEN someone stated ...' well gee that doesn't count because we don't OCCUPY the countries we invade ( CHUCKLE as if THAT makes a difference ! ) . Regardless the historical record clearly shows the US does occupy countries for extended period of time .. Panama 76 years, Haiti 19 years, Nicaragua 20 years , Dominican Republic 8 years . It does make a difference.
Russia invaded to annex another country. We invaded to enforce treaties, to protect US business interests at risk to unstable governments, to release US citizens trapped in an unstable political environment, to stop incursions of bandits who were killing US citizens INSIDE the USA, to create and protect critical national security infrastructure, to apprehend a head of state under indictment in US courts, etc... Sure, America-phobes cite all that as pretext for imperialism, but it fails basic inspection, as none of those actions added a square-inch of territory to the USA. So....your whole argument here is a false equivalency. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is completely at odds with both American ethos and policy execution during the periods you cited.
Some guys ( ignorant of past US foreign policy 'interventions' ) want to make this deal 'good vs evil' ...but brother ..its not that simple . ]
I described it as "liberal order versus Napoleonic Era."
I'll stand by that.
Put me down for "liberal order."
Sure, Putin should not have invaded. He miscalculated the leadership abilities of the Ukrainian president and the prolonged economic response of the West . Putin screwed up big time .
But there is NO WAY the Biden administration should have kept pushing NATO membership ( with the not so subtle threat of NATO weapons ) on Ukraine . Especially with 200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border.
Talking about it is not doing it. In fact, talking about it is a great way to suggest that Russian initiatives involving Syria, Iran, China, etc...." are not without a cost.
Seriously. You're analysis presumes that Russia can do anything it wants, but we must bend to myriad constraints that prevent us from putting any pressure on Putin whatsoever.
THAT was Biden's miscalculation ....a historic blunder..
NOW Biden ( or his handlers ) have put 4700 troops of the 101st relatively close to the Ukrainian border. Easily the stupidest move I have witnessed since Vietnam.
Russia brings in 3rd country troops to assist with use of suicide drones in a terror bombing against Ukrainian cities. We redeploy a single brigade within a NATO country in a way that implicitly threatens Kaliningrad. Suicide drone bombings stop.
So Russia escalates indiscriminately.
We clear our throat..
Bombing stops.
Well played, Biden admin.
I mean, seriously.
THAT's how a major power sends a minor power scurrying back to the shadows.
Think about this for a moment......Russia is looking to IRAN for help!
If anyone makes another stupid miscalculation with those boys......and we have a few casualties .
WW3 could be front and center .
Non Sequitur. Moving 4700 troops around in your own geography is not going to provoke an attack from a country already mired in a war they cannot win. It's going to highlight how weak Russia's position really is.
God I hope not......but Biden is half brain dead and Putin doesn't give a *****
Wars have begun involving far less.
A Commander in Chief we all agree is suffering from dementia .....an administration we all agree has committed one incredibly stupid / destructive act after another ........is NOW somehow magically competent to lead a proxy war against the world's biggest owner of hydrogen bombs ?
I will pour that vodka ( hate scotch ) if you can provide a rational answer to just TWO questions ...........
Exactly when did Biden mental capacity improve so dramatically as to regain your confidence .?
If Biden hasn't gained your confidence ....exactly WHO do you think is in competent control of tUS involvement in this mess ?
Similarly.....
I'm not going to let Russia run amok (to our disadvantage) just because I don't like the captain of our ship.
Our institutions are pretty good. Given a policy direction, they can execute at a very high level. And they are.
I'm only surprised that they have been given direction to act. Democrats have historically avoided spending a penny on foreign adventure in order to spend their last dime waging culture wars at home. Have direct experience in that...... So basically very surprised to see what they've been willing to do in Ukr. not quite as forward leaning as I'd have been, but a passing grade by any measure. I suspect Susan Rice is running the foreign policy wing of this WH. She's a smart cookie. Plenty smart enough to handle this not-terribly-sticky situation in Ukraine. Russia is NOT going to risk drawing Nato in under any circumstances. It would invite multiple layers of lose-lose dynamics. Like burning your house down to stop a robbery.
So the same people in charge of the Afghanistan debacle are going to successfully lead a proxy war in Ukraine yet keep the US out of a direct confrontation with Russia ?
That's comforting.
The same administration that is spending trillions of dollars it doesn't possess has your blessing to spend tens of billions of dollars on behalf of Ukraine .
Inflation is double digit , crime is spiraling out of control, millions of illegals are flooding into the US and there is widespread concern that this administration will steal the November midterms .
But these woke individuals are going to lead our country safely to victory in Ukraine . Unlike the thousands of lives and trillions of dollars wasted in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , and Afghanistan.
Can't possibly agree with your expectations.
Only way this doesn't deteriorate into still another cluster is if Putin is removed.
We...neither the US nor Nato....has to put up with what Russia is doing. It would be one thing if they were any good. But they're not. And now everybody knows it. Time to make Putin pay for his mistake. And the longer he keeps at it, the more he will lose.
it's Putin's choice where we go from here.
We will stand our ground.
The 'ground ' you want to stand on is not ours . Never has been. The ground you want to spend billions of dollars defending ( while all hell is going on right here in the US ) is not in any way vital to the strategic interests of the United States .
And you insist on ignoring the historical record on how we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan….weapons and advisors first .
Remote places far from the United States where we also 'stood our ground '
Until we got tired of burying our people into it .
Yet here we are again playing 'worlds policeman' . A role that rarely works in the long term . It's a sickening repetitive process because we never remember the costs associated with it .
Earlier in this thread you were more honest .
You admitted your pleasure playing this 'brinkmanship' game .
Even knowing full well such games have cost the lives of millions of people . The vast majority of whom had no idea what the hell they were dying for . Didn't know why they were being blown to bits in an air strike , executed along with their children or returned home with missing limbs and suicidal tendencies.
Putin has to be deposed or assassinated . Unlikely to 'win' this war under the terms desired by the Ukrainian president and US war hawks unless this happens.
Till then the risk of escalating the war is very real .
Just as it did in Korea , Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
And with a commander in chief obviously suffering from dementia…the risk is even higher .
In the immortal words of the Diceman, they ain't all golden... But the strategy is not the blunder you describe.
Now the same idiot who falls asleep during interviews , left billions of dollars worth weapons to the Taliban , can't hold a train of thought for 2 minutes , blew up international pipelines and opens our borders to millions of illegals .........
is suddenly competent to fight a proxy war without expanding it ?
Exactly when did Biden regain his brain function and your confidence in his abilities ?
Your whole position on this seems to be, if the US doesn't have a good president, then we, as a nation, should become fortress USA, shut down all foreign policy, stop opposing existential threats, stop supporting allies and hope they leave us alone....pretty pretty please.
How deep is your bunker?
Biden caused this mess by repeating calling for Ukrainian membership into NATO . A membership that would do NOTHING to enhance the national security interests of the United States .
Even when Putin placed 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border they STILL called for Ukrainian membership into NATO. An incredible miscalculation not equaled in the last 50 years of US strategic blundering .
Putin invades ...shocking right ? Not as if the US hasn't done similar 'interventions' repeatedly in the Western Hemisphere when various leftists gained power in poverty stricken countries.
Now you are a brilliant guy .......experienced world traveler. You know damn well the US has been actively attempting to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit since at least the Obama years. You also know Biden is widely regarded as a tottering joke throughout much of the world . Not a matter of 'good' president or 'bad'.
Instead one needs to take hold of the fact.......Biden is the OLDEST president in US history . One that exhibits horrible dementia on a regular basis . Yet we are playing the most dangerous game of 'brinkmanship ' since the Cuban Missile Crisis with a such a Commander in Chief in ( nominal ) control .
Insanity
Forget the Rambo bull*****....negotiate an end to this evolving nightmare.
But you keep attempting to frame this mess within very simplistic parameters .
There are thousands of ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be part of this transition. They have been fighting a civil war for years .
And exactly how is this mess in the vital strategic interests of the United States ? Why is it worth tens of billions of dollars to US taxpayers who will inevitably get stuck with the tab ?
An invasion isn't a civil war. Never has been.
One can certainly point to illegal Russian participation in the civil war........but to pretend that of thousands ethnic Russians living in Ukraine aren't involved......is ludicrous .
There was no popular support until the Russians got involved and started propping up criminals and quislings. Most of those fighting are either drafted men or Russian soldiers. Calling it a civil war, when it is most assuredly not, buys into Russian propaganda of having to "defend" the fake republics. Thought I cleared that up, but I guess not.
