Russia mobilizes

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LIB,MR BEARS
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 9:15p, 9/27/22
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
Regarding option A, there are opposing forces in Russia. Some of them keep falling down stairs and off balconies.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Canada2017 • 10:04p, 9/27/22
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.
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Canada2017
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 11:21p, 9/27/22
Foolish to constantly play the world's policeman.

Period
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 12:18a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 8:51a, 9/28/22
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 8:57a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 9:12a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We don't have to choose war, we can have peace deals. We still can with Russia and save countless lives.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 9:13a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 9:25a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 9:29a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
BS Sam, you are too much in conspiracy stuff. If Ukraine does not ask, we do not give. You can go into the intellectual, PC proxy war if you want, but if they don't ask, US does not give.
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Golem
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 9:35a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 9:36a, 9/28/22
They asked for a no-fly zone, too. Notice that we didn't provide it.
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whiterock
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 9:49a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.

That's the logic that tells a woman to "relax & enjoy it" if she gets raped
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muddybrazos
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 9:53a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
Rarely do i agree with you bc you seem to be an apoligist for the establishment but you are 100% right on this.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to whiterock • 9:57a, 9/28/22
whiterock said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.

That's the logic that tells a woman to "relax & enjoy it" if she gets raped
Which is worse -- telling her to relax, or prodding her to struggle for your amusement while you munch on a bowl of popcorn?
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whiterock
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In reply to muddybrazos • 10:00a, 9/28/22
muddybrazos said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
Rarely do i agree with you bc you seem to be an apoligist for the establishment but you are 100% right on this.

Nothing terribly remarkable about engaging in foreign policy exclusively for self-interest. That's what countries are SUPPOSED to do. And not a single one of them, most especially us, should feel the slightest pang of remorse about it.
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Bear8084
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:27a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
BS Sam, you are too much in conspiracy stuff. If Ukraine does not ask, we do not give. You can go into the intellectual, PC proxy war if you want, but if they don't ask, US does not give.


All Sam is doing is spewing Kremlin talking points.
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Bear8084
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In reply to Golem • 10:29a, 9/28/22
Golem said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.


Thankfully most of the world sees it this way.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 10:33a, 9/28/22
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Bear8084 • 10:45a, 9/28/22
Bear8084 said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.
BS Sam, you are too much in conspiracy stuff. If Ukraine does not ask, we do not give. You can go into the intellectual, PC proxy war if you want, but if they don't ask, US does not give.


All Sam is doing is spewing Kremlin talking points.
As WR said, there's nothing very remarkable about the idea. You just happen to be analyzing everything through the lens of what makes Russia look good and what makes Russia look bad. In this case you're overlooking the obvious.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 10:45a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
They asked for a no-fly zone, too. Notice that we didn't provide it.
Geez, on the one hand you say we are running a proxy war. Then you are saying we should get involved with US planes and personnel?

You know, we can support without giving them everything...
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:49a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
They asked for a no-fly zone, too. Notice that we didn't provide it.
Geez, on the one hand you say we are running a proxy war. Then you are saying we should get involved with US planes and personnel?

You know, we can support without giving them everything...
Indeed we can. It's what you do in a proxy war.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Golem • 10:51a, 9/28/22
Golem said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.
Yes, of course? Your point? We should act against our National Interest????


Why would we act against our National Interest and why is it considered wrong to act in our best interest?? You make it sound like it is a sin to act in our best interest. That logic escapes me. Of course we support those that want the same things we do and can add to our group of allies. You act like that is a bad thing.

You guys are hanging out at too many Obama apologist meetings.
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Golem
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:58a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Golem said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.
Yes, of course? Your point? We should act against our National Interest????


Why would we act against our National Interest and why is it considered wrong to act in our best interest?? You make it sound like it is a sin to act in our best interest. That logic escapes me. Of course we support those that want the same things we do and can add to our group of allies. You act like that is a bad thing.

You guys are hanging out at too many Obama apologist meetings.


Read what I wrote again….ssssllllooooowwwwllllyyyyy. Consider context.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 11:19a, 9/28/22
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Golem • 11:39a, 9/28/22
Golem said:
RMF5630 said:
Golem said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.
Yes, of course? Your point? We should act against our National Interest????


Why would we act against our National Interest and why is it considered wrong to act in our best interest?? You make it sound like it is a sin to act in our best interest. That logic escapes me. Of course we support those that want the same things we do and can add to our group of allies. You act like that is a bad thing.

You guys are hanging out at too many Obama apologist meetings.


Read what I wrote again….ssssllllooooowwwwllllyyyyy. Consider context.
Geez, it was not aimed at you. Sometimes, it is easier to react to the last posts than to go back searching for the original. Sorry, dealing with a hurricane here so not spending the appropriate time to make sure I am responding to the original posts. If you agree with what I said, it was not aimed at you. Sorry, I am not diligent enough.
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ATL Bear
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 11:41a, 9/28/22
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to ATL Bear • 11:44a, 9/28/22
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
The more he alienates NATO and is unsuccessful the more the relationship with China is at risk.
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Golem
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 11:48a, 9/28/22
RMF5630 said:
Golem said:
RMF5630 said:
Golem said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Sam Lowry said:
RMF5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
RMF5630 said:
Canada2017 said:
RMF5630 said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
I highly doubt Russia blew up their own line.



Am I to believe that the United States is now sabotaging Germany?
I mean Biden himself said we'd be able to...
Quote:
Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, it's in germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
Biden shot off his mouth. Not everything the man says is true. He just loves to pop off.
Oh yeah Russia is the sole boogeyman and western countries are never corrupt...

Everyone's hands are dirty. We gotta stop buying into the this black and white bs. Be skeptical of everyone.
I don't blame Russia. I do not think there is enough information to blame anyone at this point.


To a point. Russia invaded Crimea and ultimately Ukraine. No excuse when you invade a sovereign nation. Especially to annex into your Nation. This isn't looking to set Ukraine up as an independent nation.

Say what you will, but at least the goal of the US actions is to leave democratic functional Nations.


Yeah like Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq, South Korea , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia, Laos ……..

all functional democratic nations .


South Korea, Kuwait, we fought to preserve a more democratic government. They are better than the alterrnative.

Never said they were all successful.

We don't fight to Annex and haven't for 100 years.


Kuwait is an emirate with an autocratic political system.

Is that better than Saddams Baathist dictatorship? Sure but let's try and be accurate.

And we absorb states into our economic and political sphere of influence. We don't out right annex them because it is no long seen as acceptable and is bad PR. It's also just plain easier to rule through local elites than officially take over a foreign state.

We see how hard and expensive hostile invasions and long term occupations are (i.e. Afghanistan & Iraq)
Canada, this is where we disagree.

If Iraq does not invade Kuwait, we do nothing.
If Korth Korea does not invade South Korea, we do nothing.
Tonkin does not happen, Viet Nam does not take off.
Russia does not invade Crimea and Ukraine, we are not in this position.

Typically, US reaction is after another Nation takes a violent act. That is not the same as what Russia does and what China is threatening.

I agree with you on Iraq 03 and Afghanistan. Iraq was a vendetta and I disagree about the US going in there. The no fly zone was enough.

Afghanistan should have ended at a manhunt and destruction of Al Queda. 20 years was ridiculous.


I still do not agree that the US involvement is in any way similar to Russia's actions. Even if we want them in our political and economic sphere, if they choose not to, see Philippine's, we don't invade.
We're destroying Ukraine just as surely as if we had invaded.
Come one Sam. What is the option here?? Ukraine asked for assistance to defend themselves. This is not the US supporting a small faction against the existing recognized Government. Ukraine is asking for assistance, Russia agreed to the sovereign borders and now is invading (again, first time in 2014).

To say the US is destroying Ukraine the same as an invasion is not accurate, this is not the US's decision. It is reacting to an ask for assistance. Choice is ignore Ukrainian request and let Russia roll. I know you and Canada would prefer that.
We don't just react when someone asks for something. We decided to use Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia. Don't be under the illusion that we're doing this for anyone other than ourselves.


We react when it's in our national security interest. Opposing the violent territorial expansion of a kleptocratic gas station run by a KGB officer is in our national security interests. It's nothing like a proxy war. It's a giant gofundme for freedom.
Yes, of course? Your point? We should act against our National Interest????


Why would we act against our National Interest and why is it considered wrong to act in our best interest?? You make it sound like it is a sin to act in our best interest. That logic escapes me. Of course we support those that want the same things we do and can add to our group of allies. You act like that is a bad thing.

You guys are hanging out at too many Obama apologist meetings.


Read what I wrote again….ssssllllooooowwwwllllyyyyy. Consider context.
Geez, it was not aimed at you. Sometimes, it is easier to react to the last posts than to go back searching for the original. Sorry, dealing with a hurricane here so not spending the appropriate time to make sure I am responding to the original posts. If you agree with what I said, it was not aimed at you. Sorry, I am not diligent enough.


No worries brother.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 11:50a, 9/28/22
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.
Exactly. And it forces an even worse problem if something were to happen to the Baltic Pipe, for example. That's why it makes sense for Russia to have done it. As I indicated to Bear8084, whether a so-called narrative makes Russia look good or bad is not what should drive the analysis.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to ATL Bear • 12:41p, 9/28/22
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
Energy needs.

Russia blew up their own pipeline but NOT the Norway-EU pipeline that's right next to it and just opened today?

Blame Putin, escalate the war, advance green agenda, make EU dependent.
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 12:46p, 9/28/22
Doc Holliday said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
Energy needs.

Russia blew up their own pipeline but NOT the Norway-EU pipeline that's right next to it and just opened today?

Blame Putin, escalate the war, advance green agenda, make EU dependent.
Not sure how cutting gas and thereby highlighting the failure of "green energy" will advance the green agenda. But then again, I am surprised that people have bought into the green agenda as hard as they have.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to Wrecks Quan Dough • 12:48p, 9/28/22
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
Energy needs.

Russia blew up their own pipeline but NOT the Norway-EU pipeline that's right next to it and just opened today?

Blame Putin, escalate the war, advance green agenda, make EU dependent.
Not sure how cutting gas and thereby highlighting the failure of "green energy" will advance the green agenda. But then again, I am surprised that people have bought into the green agenda as hard as they have.
Cutting gas means they EU will have to pump billions into green energy because EU is anti hydrocarbon, or they'll have to buy much more gas from the US. Probably both.

Fear is the most powerful motivator.

I think this is what's going on:
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 12:57p, 9/28/22
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
Energy needs.

Russia blew up their own pipeline but NOT the Norway-EU pipeline that's right next to it and just opened today?

Blame Putin, escalate the war, advance green agenda, make EU dependent.
Not sure how cutting gas and thereby highlighting the failure of "green energy" will advance the green agenda. But then again, I am surprised that people have bought into the green agenda as hard as they have.
Cutting gas means they EU will have to pump billions into green energy because EU is anti hydrocarbon, or they'll have to buy much more gas from the US. Probably both.

Fear is the most powerful motivator.

I think this is what's going on:
You are probably right that the EU will not reconsider its position on nukes, coal, or green energy. It is really silly to be that hard headed, but here we (and they) are.
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Doc Holliday
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In reply to Wrecks Quan Dough • 1:00p, 9/28/22
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
He Hate Me said:
Doc Holliday said:
ATL Bear said:
Doc Holliday said:
Sam Lowry said:
Doc Holliday said:
What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.
A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.
So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?
What makes you think most of Europe plans on working with Russia in the future for its energy needs? Why do you think Russia's land objectives make it extremely difficult to get pipelines from other places East? There's no magic agreement that results in everything back to normal at the snap of a finger. Putin made the call to invade. The consequences are evolving.
Energy needs.

Russia blew up their own pipeline but NOT the Norway-EU pipeline that's right next to it and just opened today?

Blame Putin, escalate the war, advance green agenda, make EU dependent.
Not sure how cutting gas and thereby highlighting the failure of "green energy" will advance the green agenda. But then again, I am surprised that people have bought into the green agenda as hard as they have.
Cutting gas means they EU will have to pump billions into green energy because EU is anti hydrocarbon, or they'll have to buy much more gas from the US. Probably both.

Fear is the most powerful motivator.

I think this is what's going on:
You are probably right that the EU will not reconsider its position on nukes, coal, or green energy. It is really silly to be that hard headed, but here we (and they) are.
When trillions are at stake, people do crazy sh it.
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