Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

SO you were ok with allowing the British to wither away at the behest of the Germans?

The Japanese were going to end up at war with the US at that time anyway. They just hastened the matter. They were going to have to get to the Dutch fields at some point. They attacked Pearl Harbor hoping it would completely eliminate the Pacific fleet, and that they'd have a months long to a year's head start on control of the Pacific. They failed, and they grossly underestimated the massive industrial capacity of the US.

---

My Dad was on the USS Selfridge on December 7th 1941 during the Pearl Harbor attack . Was setting up chairs for the mandatory Church service that morning ( it was a Sunday ).

From then on he saw constant combat because he was 'regular Navy' ( not a member of the reserve ) and was un married . Almost got killed on 3 occasions and even got credit for the surrender of a Japanese soldier on Guam . ( hilarious story ).


In my opinion ( and history's ) FDR did the correct moves involving both Japan and Germany . Of course growing up in a Navy family no other personal opinion was possible and the winners ALWAYS write the history books .

Point I'm making is our government habitually lies to the American people and drag us into war against our will.

One can argue whether or not such deceptions were the 'right' move........

WW1 NO
WW2 YES
Korea NO
Vietnam NO
Iraq YES
Ukraine HELL NO



But anyone who really believes the Russians blew up their own pipelines in the North Sea needs a major reality check .

Anyone who believes the US has clean hands in the events leading up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine .....needs to get some new sources of reading material .

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

so much wrong in your post.

Germany actually started it forcing FDR to issue the shoot on sight. First a German U-boat attempted to get into firing position on a US Destroyer picking up survivors of a sunken freighter. Then another U-boat fired on a different destroyer who dropped depth charges in response.

Then FDR issued the order.

And Germany sunk US merchants/oil tankers.

So there was no "undeclared war" but rather a defend yourself/Americans order.

As for Japan they could have invaded the Dutch East Indies and began a war with England but the US would not have stepped up and declared war at that time.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

---

Oh, Ok. Bomb Pearl Harbor. Maybe if they weren't using the oil to fuel battleships to take over the Pacific the embargo wouldn't be needed???? Just taking a wild ass guess...

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

---

Oh, Ok. Bomb Pearl Harbor. Maybe if they weren't using the oil to fuel battleships to take over the Pacific the embargo wouldn't be needed???? Just taking a wild ass guess...

---

I am certainly not attacking the justification of the oil embargo.

Japan earned that embargo and all free nations have the right to stop trading with others when they feel like it.

I was just asking if the oil embargo taking place was somehow inaccurate...

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

---

Yes that part is true.

What it ignores is the whole picture.

For example, Yamamoto started creating the plan for the attack in January 1941. Before the oil was cut off.

There was an Imperial Council meeting on July 2nd to discuss the planning of an attack on Pearl Harbor. Before the oil embargo.

So yeah the oil embargo was not the reason for the attack. It had been a hypothetical since the late 1920s and started being planned and discussed in the Japanese government BEFORE the oil embargo.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

---

Oh, Ok. Bomb Pearl Harbor. Maybe if they weren't using the oil to fuel battleships to take over the Pacific the embargo wouldn't be needed???? Just taking a wild ass guess...

---

I am certainly not attacking the justification of the oil embargo.

Japan earned that embargo and all free nations have the right to stop trading with others when they feel like it.

I was just asking if the oil embargo taking place was somehow inaccurate...

---

We are good. Sometimes I respond to the latest post.

Politics aside, I think it's not just important but vital to have a range of action options.

Embargoes can lead to war, but are not an act of war per se.

Same for military supply deals, be if Lend-Lease to England or Crazy Biden's Ukraine-a-palooza. They can lead to war, but at least maintain the facade of diplomacy.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Politics aside, I think it's not just important but vital to have a range of action options.

Embargoes can lead to war, but are not an act of war per se.

Same for military supply deals, be if Lend-Lease to England or Crazy Biden's Ukraine-a-palooza. They can lead to war, but at least maintain the facade of diplomacy.

---

But in both cases there is a Nation taking an aggressive act that promoted the action. Those acts seem to be chalked up as the same. They are not.

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

---

That's not the point I was making. The US was going to have to cut that oil anyway, because we were eventually going to need it for ourselves for the war effort
(i.e., let's not kid ourselves, we knew in July of 1941 that we were eventually going to have to get involved in Europe. USSR was not at war with Japan and had only days before the embargo been surprise attacked by Germany. The embargo was also a result of Japan trying to destroy and occupy the entirety of SE Asia, but feeding our own war machine was of more importance)

So to clarify, if you want to get into a minutiae argument then that's fine. But war with Japan was going to happen regardless, because we needed that oil for ourselves since we already knew we were going to be going to war.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Not trying to start an argument but is that inaccurate?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003

This article says that 4/5ths of Japans oil came from the US and it was cut off in July of 1941.

Is that not factually true?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1991/12/01/blood-and-oil-why-japan-attacked-pearl/1238a2e3-6055-4d73-817d-baf67d3a9db8/

[A recently discovered diary from one of Emperor Hirohito's aides makes clear how the Japanese have viewed oil's importance in the Pacific war. It quotes the late emperor as saying, after the war, that Japan went to war with the United States because of oil -- and lost the war because of oil.

In July 1941, Japan invaded what is now southern Vietnam (then part of French Indochina) to bolster its China campaign and as a stepping stone to conquest of the oil-rich East Indies. Japan's military leaders knew this might provoke an all-out U.S. oil embargo; indeed, the only way for the United States to oppose this latest step -- short of military force -- was a full-scale oil embargo.

Once the oil supply line was cut, time began running out for Tokyo. Without new sources, it had no more than an estimated two-year supply stockpiled at home. By early autumn of 1941, the fateful decision was made to launch all-out Asian conquest, with East Indies oil the most important target. "If there were no supply of oil," one admiral said, "battleships and any other warships would be nothing more than scarecrows."]

---

Oh, Ok. Bomb Pearl Harbor. Maybe if they weren't using the oil to fuel battleships to take over the Pacific the embargo wouldn't be needed???? Just taking a wild ass guess...

---

I am certainly not attacking the justification of the oil embargo.

Japan earned that embargo and all free nations have the right to stop trading with others when they feel like it.

I was just asking if the oil embargo taking place was somehow inaccurate...

---

No, it's not. I clarified with several points (just catching up on posts) . The premise of his statement was inaccurate is what I'm saying. Japan deserved to be embargoed, and we were already going to go to war and we knew it as of 06/21/41 when Germany surprise attacked USSR (formerly their ally) and started a true war of European conquest.

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Months of internet saber rattling about how the United States should aid Ukraine .


But not a single Rambo has actually enlisted to go over there.



Shocking

---

Meh to this type of argument. If I change my screenname to Kissinger, then am I required to sign up for the diplomatic service before expressing an opinion?

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

The Ukranians want and are willing to fight for their own Nation. They returned all the nukes that were there in the 90's, which they helped pay for, in exchange for Soverignty. Russia agreed. Now to attack Crimea and Ukraine after Ukraine lived up to their end of deal is reprehensible.

I am partial, I helped get two Ukranian Nationals legally out and to the US and have spoken with them about the situation. It is horrific what the Russians do and how they operate. Ukraine has the ability to add positively to NATO and the EU, we have invested in a lit of nations with much less up side than Ukraine.

---

exchanged for sovereignty an assurances of assistance if invaded..... USA is making good on a pledge. The right pledge, the right place, in mostly the right ways.

Ukrainians have firmly decided as a peoples that they wish to become part of Europe rather than Eurasia. The American ethos is that peoples are entitled to decide and act on questions like that. We should continue to provide arms & ammo to Ukraine, until there are no more Ukrainians asking for arms and ammo. The dishonor would be to abandon them on the battlefield.

---

Should we do what Zelensky wants?

NEW - Ukraine's Zelensky calls on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" against Russia to "eliminate the possibility" of a Russian nuclear strike.pic.twitter.com/gj6mSRZfFF

— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) October 6, 2022

Russia commits atrocities and the entire west pounces.

China commits atrocities and the west votes to ignore it. Oh and Ukraine abstained.

The UN Human Rights Council rejected the motion to debate the Uyghur genocide 17-19. Shame. pic.twitter.com/uptqAvqY7y

— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) October 6, 2022

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

Yeah if he's paid by the government.

Zelensky called on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" against Russia to "eliminate the possibility" of a Russian nuclear strike. Should we go ahead and do that?

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

Bear8084 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

---

Really you shouldn't trust any official corporate media.

Think how our media lied about russiagate and our own government told big tech to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop that implicates Joe.

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

Yeah if he's paid by the government.

Zelensky called on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" against Russia to "eliminate the possibility" of a Russian nuclear strike. Should we go ahead and do that?

---

I've never said any such mess, nor would I, nor will we need to.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

---

Really you shouldn't trust any official corporate media.

Think how our media lied about russiagate and our own government told big tech to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop that implicates Joe.

---

there was Russian interference in our election, and to think there wasn't is idiotic. But the real facts of the Russian interference in our election and political stuff is that they injected our social media platforms with bots on both extremes of the political spectrum to spew shyt that would divide the voting electorate to an extreme state. They well accomplished that goal. Reasonable folks like myself get called a righty and a lefty all the time, and that lets me know that I'm closer to correct than not.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

---

Really you shouldn't trust any official corporate media.

Think how our media lied about russiagate and our own government told big tech to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop that implicates Joe.

---

there was Russian interference in our election, and to think there wasn't is idiotic. But the real facts of the Russian interference in our election and political stuff is that they injected our social media platforms with bots on both extremes of the political spectrum to spew shyt that would divide the voting electorate to an extreme state. They well accomplished that goal. Reasonable folks like myself get called a righty and a lefty all the time, and that lets me know that I'm closer to correct than not.

---

What Mueller and the IC outlined as the only proof of actual russian disinformation was hardly anything. Where are you getting that it divided the electorate to an extreme state from? What divided the electorate is exactly what you're claiming which isn't true.

'Hunter's laptop is a Russian plot' hoax was perpetrated by 5 CIA directors and 50 former IC officials used garbage politicized intelligence saying Rudy was getting Russian disinformation as the ruse to claim Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation.

I'm not calling you a righty or lefty. You act as if the feds are incapable of extreme corruption or outright lies.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Russia commits atrocities and the entire west pounces.

China commits atrocities and the west votes to ignore it. Oh and Ukraine abstained.

The UN Human Rights Council rejected the motion to debate the Uyghur genocide 17-19. Shame. pic.twitter.com/uptqAvqY7y

— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) October 6, 2022

---

Elites and companies make money off China.

Fewer make money off Russia.

Our media and leaders will be making excuses for China for a long time to come.

Per Bloomberg

Quote:

---

With its troops losing ground almost daily, the Kremlin has told some of its state media to start admitting some of the failings of President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, worried that its relentlessly upbeat propaganda was fueling growing public doubts.

The shift in policy over the last few weeks, described by people familiar with the Kremlin's tight message management who spoke on condition of anonymity, has unleashed a wave of unusual public criticism of the military.

After months of reporting virtually nothing but battlefield successes, state TV has lately been cataloging Russian retreats and defeats - without the usual positive spin from the Ministry of Defense.

"We have to stop lying," Andrey Kartapolov, a former general who now heads the Defense Committee in the lower house of parliament, said on a popular online talk show this week. "Our people aren't stupid."

There's no sign the Kremlin will let the strictly controlled media go that far, of course, and no questioning of Putin or his decision to invade is allowed. But with little prospect its forces will be able to slow Ukraine's counteroffensive in the near future, the authorities hope the appearance of less spin may help shore up public support.

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Russia commits atrocities and the entire west pounces.

China commits atrocities and the west votes to ignore it. Oh and Ukraine abstained.

The UN Human Rights Council rejected the motion to debate the Uyghur genocide 17-19. Shame. pic.twitter.com/uptqAvqY7y

— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) October 6, 2022

---

Elites and companies make money off China.

Fewer make money off Russia.

Our media and leaders will be making excuses for China for a long time to come.

---

Bingo

If China takes over Taiwan, the US won't do anything, even though it's the exact same scenario as Russia taking Ukraine.

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

---

Really you shouldn't trust any official corporate media.

Think how our media lied about russiagate and our own government told big tech to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop that implicates Joe.

---

there was Russian interference in our election, and to think there wasn't is idiotic. But the real facts of the Russian interference in our election and political stuff is that they injected our social media platforms with bots on both extremes of the political spectrum to spew shyt that would divide the voting electorate to an extreme state. They well accomplished that goal. Reasonable folks like myself get called a righty and a lefty all the time, and that lets me know that I'm closer to correct than not.

---

What Mueller and the IC outlined as the only proof of actual russian disinformation was hardly anything. Where are you getting that it divided the electorate to an extreme state from? What divided the electorate is exactly what you're claiming which isn't true.

'Hunter's laptop is a Russian plot' hoax was perpetrated by 5 CIA directors and 50 former IC officials used garbage politicized intelligence saying Rudy was getting Russian disinformation as the ruse to claim Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation.

I'm not calling you a righty or lefty. You act as if the feds are incapable of extreme corruption or outright lies.

---

look at the amount of Twitter bots that are extremes of both nature that pop up in standard posts. Of course the Hunter laptop stuff is true. Look at the amount of bots that say it wasn't, and look at the bots promoting Trump getting peed on, and the Bots Tucker involves that have led him into a stance that Russia is doing no wrong and is actually winning, and so on. It goes both ways and feeds the "I find my own information" warriors that don't understand that too much information can be much worse than not enough information. Know how statistics work

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

🇺🇦 Should news agencies and Twitter accounts that are paid by the 🇺🇦 or 🇺🇸 governement and/or PR agencies/NGOs - have to disclose the relationship and financial conflicts?

Why does Russia Today or China Daily get the 'state sponsored media' but not media that espouses Ukraine pic.twitter.com/GjfKucUTKc

— Adam Townsend (@adamscrabble) August 27, 2022

---

How about Tucker who promotes narratives straight from the mouth of Russian Duma members?

---

And also RT is one of THE main propaganda arms of Russia.

---

Really you shouldn't trust any official corporate media.

Think how our media lied about russiagate and our own government told big tech to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop that implicates Joe.

---

there was Russian interference in our election, and to think there wasn't is idiotic. But the real facts of the Russian interference in our election and political stuff is that they injected our social media platforms with bots on both extremes of the political spectrum to spew shyt that would divide the voting electorate to an extreme state. They well accomplished that goal. Reasonable folks like myself get called a righty and a lefty all the time, and that lets me know that I'm closer to correct than not.

---

What Mueller and the IC outlined as the only proof of actual russian disinformation was hardly anything. Where are you getting that it divided the electorate to an extreme state from? What divided the electorate is exactly what you're claiming which isn't true.

'Hunter's laptop is a Russian plot' hoax was perpetrated by 5 CIA directors and 50 former IC officials used garbage politicized intelligence saying Rudy was getting Russian disinformation as the ruse to claim Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation.

I'm not calling you a righty or lefty. You act as if the feds are incapable of extreme corruption or outright lies.

---

look at the amount of Twitter bots that are extremes of both nature that pop up in standard posts. Of course the Hunter laptop stuff is true. Look at the amount of bots that say it wasn't, and look at the bots promoting Trump getting peed on, and the Bots Tucker involves that have led him into a stance that Russia is doing no wrong and is actually winning, and so on. It goes both ways and feeds the "I find my own information" warriors that don't understand that too much information can be much worse than not enough information. Know how statistics work

---

There's a way around that and it's through source documentation.

Just like how a group of online researchers figured out the Steele dossier itself was Russian disinformation back in 2017 and the FBI is just now admitting it in 2022.

We knew for a fact Hunter's laptop was legit based on sourcing while the FBI was claiming without evidence that it was Russian disinformation.

All I'm saying is the one place we should trust, our government, is actively lying and swaying elections. It's going to destroy our country if it doesn't stop.

For the record, I don't watch Tucker and I don't buy the pro Russian view of this war. I don't buy either side and I hate that I'm being cornered to choose one. I just want peace.

cowboycwr said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

so much wrong in your post.

Germany actually started it forcing FDR to issue the shoot on sight. First a German U-boat attempted to get into firing position on a US Destroyer picking up survivors of a sunken freighter. Then another U-boat fired on a different destroyer who dropped depth charges in response.

Then FDR issued the order.

And Germany sunk US merchants/oil tankers.

So there was no "undeclared war" but rather a defend yourself/Americans order.

As for Japan they could have invaded the Dutch East Indies and began a war with England but the US would not have stepped up and declared war at that time.

---

FDR ( rightly ) despised Hitler and Nazism .

However the vast majority of Americans wanted no part of a 2nd war in Europe after the widespread disillusionment felt with the conduct and post war results of WW1.

Most American wanted to focus on building up US defenses ( which had been allowed to crumble during the Great Depression ) . Charles Lindbergh was one of the most prominent spokesmen of the America First movement .

FDR had other ideas.

FDR invented 'Lend Lease' which circumvented US law prohibiting the supply of weapons to European belligerents . Huge amounts of supplies were transported through the Atlantic Ocean war zone to England .
Even to the point of giving England FIFTY destroyers out of our reserve 'mothball ' fleet . Those ships were put to immediate use by England in their desperate fight against German submarines . US warships actively escorted merchant ships ( with their war supplies for England ) to a mid point in the Atlantic Ocean where the Royal Navy then took over the escorting responsibilities .

In addition the US Army Air Force was actively scouting the Atlantic Ocean for German shipping and supplying the information to the Royal Navy . It was a US scout plane that discovered the location of the German battleship Bismarck which led to its eventual destruction and the death of thousands of German sailors .

The US even invaded Iceland in order 'to prevent Iceland's occupation by Germany '.

All while the United States claimed to be a neutral country !

Have no idea what you are attempting to say about the Dutch East Indies.

Canada2017 said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

so much wrong in your post.

Germany actually started it forcing FDR to issue the shoot on sight. First a German U-boat attempted to get into firing position on a US Destroyer picking up survivors of a sunken freighter. Then another U-boat fired on a different destroyer who dropped depth charges in response.

Then FDR issued the order.

And Germany sunk US merchants/oil tankers.

So there was no "undeclared war" but rather a defend yourself/Americans order.

As for Japan they could have invaded the Dutch East Indies and began a war with England but the US would not have stepped up and declared war at that time.

---

FDR ( rightly ) despised Hitler and Nazism .

However the vast majority of Americans wanted no part of a 2nd war in Europe after the widespread disillusionment felt with the conduct and post war results of WW1.

Most American wanted to focus on building up US defenses ( which had been allowed to crumble during the Great Depression ) . Charles Lindbergh was one of the most prominent spokesmen of the America First movement .

FDR had other ideas.

FDR invented 'Lend Lease' which circumvented US law prohibiting the supply of weapons to European belligerents . Huge amounts of supplies were transported through the Atlantic Ocean war zone to England .
Even to the point of giving England FIFTY destroyers out of our reserve 'mothball ' fleet . Those ships were put to immediate use by England in their desperate fight against German submarines . US warships actively escorted merchant ships ( with their war supplies for England ) to a mid point in the Atlantic Ocean where the Royal Navy then took over the escorting responsibilities .

In addition the US Army Air Force was actively scouting the Atlantic Ocean for German shipping and supplying the information to the Royal Navy . It was a US scout plane that discovered the location of the German battleship Bismarck which led to its eventual destruction and the death of thousands of German sailors .

The US even invaded Iceland in order 'to prevent Iceland's occupation by Germany '.

All while the United States claimed to be a neutral country !

Have no idea what you are attempting to say about the Dutch East Indies.

---

1. True most Americans did not want to get involved ina European war.

2. Lend lease was passed by Congress and this LAW and did not violate anything.

3. It was a us made plane sent to the British with a British pilot and American trainer/copilot that spotted the Bismarck.

4. Denmark asked for our troops to come to prevent Germany from taking more of their territory.

So all of those are neutral acts. Your views and skewing of the facts is revisionist history.

On the East Indies I am saying that there was no evidence that the US would have declared war on Japan if they attacked it but didn't attack any US territories. England probably would have declared war but not the US. All historical documents point towards the US not supporting war against Japan if they attacked European colonies.

Stop with the revisionist history.

BREAKING: Biden at a Democrat Fundraiser tonight said Putin is 'not joking' about tactical nuclear weapons; 'Armageddon' risk at highest level since Cuban Missile Crisis.

— Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) October 7, 2022

cowboycwr said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

so much wrong in your post.

Germany actually started it forcing FDR to issue the shoot on sight. First a German U-boat attempted to get into firing position on a US Destroyer picking up survivors of a sunken freighter. Then another U-boat fired on a different destroyer who dropped depth charges in response.

Then FDR issued the order.

And Germany sunk US merchants/oil tankers.

So there was no "undeclared war" but rather a defend yourself/Americans order.

As for Japan they could have invaded the Dutch East Indies and began a war with England but the US would not have stepped up and declared war at that time.

---

FDR ( rightly ) despised Hitler and Nazism .

However the vast majority of Americans wanted no part of a 2nd war in Europe after the widespread disillusionment felt with the conduct and post war results of WW1.

Most American wanted to focus on building up US defenses ( which had been allowed to crumble during the Great Depression ) . Charles Lindbergh was one of the most prominent spokesmen of the America First movement .

FDR had other ideas.

FDR invented 'Lend Lease' which circumvented US law prohibiting the supply of weapons to European belligerents . Huge amounts of supplies were transported through the Atlantic Ocean war zone to England .
Even to the point of giving England FIFTY destroyers out of our reserve 'mothball ' fleet . Those ships were put to immediate use by England in their desperate fight against German submarines . US warships actively escorted merchant ships ( with their war supplies for England ) to a mid point in the Atlantic Ocean where the Royal Navy then took over the escorting responsibilities .

In addition the US Army Air Force was actively scouting the Atlantic Ocean for German shipping and supplying the information to the Royal Navy . It was a US scout plane that discovered the location of the German battleship Bismarck which led to its eventual destruction and the death of thousands of German sailors .

The US even invaded Iceland in order 'to prevent Iceland's occupation by Germany '.

All while the United States claimed to be a neutral country !

Have no idea what you are attempting to say about the Dutch East Indies.

---

1. True most Americans did not want to get involved ina European war.

2. Lend lease was passed by Congress and this LAW and did not violate anything.

3. It was a us made plane sent to the British with a British pilot and American trainer/copilot that spotted the Bismarck.

4. Denmark asked for our troops to come to prevent Germany from taking more of their territory.

So all of those are neutral acts. Your views and skewing of the facts is revisionist history.

On the East Indies I am saying that there was no evidence that the US would have declared war on Japan if they attacked it but didn't attack any US territories. England probably would have declared war but not the US. All historical documents point towards the US not supporting war against Japan if they attacked European colonies.

Stop with the revisionist history.

---

Each and every one of FDR's moves was in direct conflict with the will of the US people...at least initially .

Relentless propaganda month by month slowly convinced a majority of Americans of the 'inevitability ' of war.

An 'inevitability' generated by FDR...step by politically BRILLIANT step.

Lend Lease by no means was the act of a true neutral. Millions of tons of ammo, artillery , 50 warships, guns , planes provided to only ONE of the belligerents ? Give me a freaking break . Hitler certainly didn't consider FDR's administration 'neutral '. Which was why he chose to declare war on the US immediately after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. ( BTW Germany was NOT obligated by its treaty with Japan to do so )

The whole point of Japan's attack on the Dutch East Indies was to REPLACE oil lost due to the US oil embargo. Japan had no where else to get it. . And of course without oil their entire military machine was incapacitated . FDR knew EXACTLY what the consequences would be. Either Japan would have to acquiesce to US demands to stop their attacks in China ......or go to war. And FDR knew damn well Tojo could never acquiesce to US demands and stay in power. Or even to avoid assassination for that matter.

Did FDR know of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor ? No. Everyone from the president on down to my Dad at Pearl Harbor thought the war would begin with a Japanese attack on the Philippines .