He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

So, in your view gaining sovereignty means nothing... It the colonial master wants you back, the world should stay out of it since they were your property for the last 220 years. What is the point of gaining sovereignty?

Sam, I wouldn't have taking you and Canada for colonialists...

---

What part of 'spheres of influence' in the post WW2 nuclear age is incomprehensible to you ?

The US has invaded several countries in our hemisphere to 'protect national interests'.

Really think the US has the moral high ground in this Ukrainian carnage….think again .

---

Yes, we do have the moral high ground. Why? A - We didn't roll tanks into a sovereign nation. B-Ukraine asked us and NATO to help. C - We are not helping unilaterally. D- The UN voted against Russia 143 - 5. So, who supported the Russian annexation? Belarus, North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria.

I can pretty confidently say that when North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria are the only ones standing with you, you should look in the mirror. It is not a them issue, it is a you issue.

---

We have invaded Panama...shot the hell out of their security forces......took prisoner the PRESIDENT of the country ....and stuck him in our Federal Prison . Where he remained until 2007 .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

We invaded Cuba in the 60's in the Bay of Pigs fiasco . Attempted to assassinate Cuba's leader several times.
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Sent US special forces and weapons to El Salvador.....killing locals who dared opposite the government of our choosing .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Invaded Haiti , Grenada , Nicaragua . the Dominican Republic . Assassinated various leftist politicians in south and Central American throughout post WW2 altercations .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Get a ****ing clue .

There are no 'good guys' in all this insanity . Just national security interests.

Elitists playing their 'brinkmanship' games. Elitists trying to make money off various industrial opportunities generated by these 'brinkmanship' games.

This time it was Obama and later Joe 'brain damaged' Biden attempted to alter long established security arrangements . And don't kid yourself MILLIONS of dollars ended up in Ukrainian and Democratic pockets in the process.

Is Putin innocent in all this ? Of course not.

But Obama and Biden have contributed mightily this mess. And NOW Biden has placed 4700 ground troops within striking distance of the battlefield .

Connect the bloody dots.

---

The good or the bad is what happens to the population? How many places are worse off after the US intervenes??? Versus, how many happy Communists do you know? How many Venezuelans or Cubans?

You and everyone else that argues "sphere of influence" still do not answer what do the Ukrainians want? I know 2, she works with us. I had to verify we had hours on projects to justify he position. She literally just got her Grandmother out. Literally had to tell an 84 year old out, not to get in the trucks and go where the Russians want. They were trying to get people into Russia. This is first hand information. I can tell you, her situation is better here than in Russia and life in Ukraine was better before Putin decided it was his. I do not have any stories of people in Ukraine saying Putin is right, we welcome Russia...

---

You still just don't get it .

The US killed tens of thousands of North Korean civilians ........think they love us for it ?

The US killed hundreds of thousands of civilians throughout Vietnam . Think any of them thought the geo political ramifications were worth it dying for ? Or the deaths of their kids was worth it ?

We bombed the living **** out of Iraqi .....killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process. Think the survivors of those dead family members love the US ? That Iraqi is such a better place now even with all of their relatives dead ?

The United States ...first , last and always .....has protected its own interests. But being a 'democracy' the elitists have to sell various fantasies first..... to our dumb as grass electorate.

So of course.....you are not going to see many US media stories about ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for YEARS against the current Ukrainian central government .

That is simply not how propaganda works .

But the American people have fallen for the exact same BS as in Korea , Vietnam, Iraqi and Afghanistan .

Good God man ....95% of the American media had the incredible gall to suggest the Russians blew up their own natural gas pipelines ....rather than merely close the output values located in Russia .


And now...magically ...4700 US troops are acting as an obvious 'trip wire'.






Insanity

---

You don't get it. My views are based on real people, not statistics. Not propaganda read from my living room.
The Gulf War was right, why? I saw what the Iraqi's did to Kuwait and Kuwait City. I work with Ukrainians, who have family there now, not just a political philosophy. I have worked with Hyundai and attended DLI for Korean, so I spoke to Koreans. My Dad sponsored German Israeli's for their Citizenship, don't tell them how Russia is entitled to the sphere of influence. I work with Cuban's that literally had to go through Canada to fly to Cuba to visit family. I know people I served with in the 82nd that were on the ground in Granada, don't tell me there was nothing there or those students weren't in danger. I saw polaroid's of them hugging the guys that were in my unit, which I believe because I had the same experience in Kuwait City.

So, I have spoken with people that have to live under the yoke of what you and Sam say "just don't get involved". We do more way more good than harm.

So, my views are based on actual discussions and experiences. Not some internet report or poli sci white paper by an academic. I think the way you sign off a nation is ridiculous. I will stay naive, if that is the alternative. I don't care if it is a Dem or GOP in White House, this is not a conservative/progressive issue in my opinion. They roll tanks over a border, this is not a Spec Op to get one guy...

As for the 4700 101st Soldiers in Poland, there is no tripwire if Russia leaves Poland alone! There is no tripwire unless Putin wants to invade. Poland is far enough away, that any move on them is on purpose. I know the Poles are happy they are there...

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

---

Your argument is now on its 35th page.

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

So, in your view gaining sovereignty means nothing... It the colonial master wants you back, the world should stay out of it since they were your property for the last 220 years. What is the point of gaining sovereignty?

Sam, I wouldn't have taking you and Canada for colonialists...

---

What part of 'spheres of influence' in the post WW2 nuclear age is incomprehensible to you ?

The US has invaded several countries in our hemisphere to 'protect national interests'.

Really think the US has the moral high ground in this Ukrainian carnage….think again .

---

Yes, we do have the moral high ground. Why? A - We didn't roll tanks into a sovereign nation. B-Ukraine asked us and NATO to help. C - We are not helping unilaterally. D- The UN voted against Russia 143 - 5. So, who supported the Russian annexation? Belarus, North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria.

I can pretty confidently say that when North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria are the only ones standing with you, you should look in the mirror. It is not a them issue, it is a you issue.

---

We have invaded Panama...shot the hell out of their security forces......took prisoner the PRESIDENT of the country ....and stuck him in our Federal Prison . Where he remained until 2007 .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

We invaded Cuba in the 60's in the Bay of Pigs fiasco . Attempted to assassinate Cuba's leader several times.
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Sent US special forces and weapons to El Salvador.....killing locals who dared opposite the government of our choosing .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Invaded Haiti , Grenada , Nicaragua . the Dominican Republic . Assassinated various leftist politicians in south and Central American throughout post WW2 altercations .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Get a ****ing clue .

There are no 'good guys' in all this insanity . Just national security interests.

Elitists playing their 'brinkmanship' games. Elitists trying to make money off various industrial opportunities generated by these 'brinkmanship' games.

This time it was Obama and later Joe 'brain damaged' Biden attempted to alter long established security arrangements . And don't kid yourself MILLIONS of dollars ended up in Ukrainian and Democratic pockets in the process.

Is Putin innocent in all this ? Of course not.

But Obama and Biden have contributed mightily this mess. And NOW Biden has placed 4700 ground troops within striking distance of the battlefield .

Connect the bloody dots.

---

The good or the bad is what happens to the population? How many places are worse off after the US intervenes??? Versus, how many happy Communists do you know? How many Venezuelans or Cubans?

You and everyone else that argues "sphere of influence" still do not answer what do the Ukrainians want? I know 2, she works with us. I had to verify we had hours on projects to justify he position. She literally just got her Grandmother out. Literally had to tell an 84 year old out, not to get in the trucks and go where the Russians want. They were trying to get people into Russia. This is first hand information. I can tell you, her situation is better here than in Russia and life in Ukraine was better before Putin decided it was his. I do not have any stories of people in Ukraine saying Putin is right, we welcome Russia...

---

You still just don't get it .

The US killed tens of thousands of North Korean civilians ........think they love us for it ?

The US killed hundreds of thousands of civilians throughout Vietnam . Think any of them thought the geo political ramifications were worth it dying for ? Or the deaths of their kids was worth it ?

We bombed the living **** out of Iraqi .....killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process. Think the survivors of those dead family members love the US ? That Iraqi is such a better place now even with all of their relatives dead ?

The United States ...first , last and always .....has protected its own interests. But being a 'democracy' the elitists have to sell various fantasies first..... to our dumb as grass electorate.

So of course.....you are not going to see many US media stories about ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for YEARS against the current Ukrainian central government .

That is simply not how propaganda works .

But the American people have fallen for the exact same BS as in Korea , Vietnam, Iraqi and Afghanistan .

Good God man ....95% of the American media had the incredible gall to suggest the Russians blew up their own natural gas pipelines ....rather than merely close the output values located in Russia .


And now...magically ...4700 US troops are acting as an obvious 'trip wire'.






Insanity

---

You don't get it. My views are based on real people, not statistics. Not propaganda read from my living room.
The Gulf War was right, why? I saw what the Iraqi's did to Kuwait and Kuwait City. I work with Ukrainians, who have family there now, not just a political philosophy. I have worked with Hyundai and attended DLI for Korean, so I spoke to Koreans. My Dad sponsored German Israeli's for their Citizenship, don't tell them how Russia is entitled to the sphere of influence. I work with Cuban's that literally had to go through Canada to fly to Cuba to visit family. I know people I served with in the 82nd that were on the ground in Granada, don't tell me there was nothing there or those students weren't in danger. I saw polaroid's of them hugging the guys that were in my unit, which I believe because I had the same experience in Kuwait City.

So, I have spoken with people that have to live under the yoke of what you and Sam say "just don't get involved". We do more way more good than harm.

So, my views are based on actual discussions and experiences. Not some internet report or poli sci white paper by an academic. I think the way you sign off a nation is ridiculous. I will stay naive, if that is the alternative. I don't care if it is a Dem or GOP in White House, this is not a conservative/progressive issue in my opinion. They roll tanks over a border, this is not a Spec Op to get one guy...

As for the 4700 101st Soldiers in Poland, there is no tripwire if Russia leaves Poland alone! There is no tripwire unless Putin wants to invade. Poland is far enough away, that any move on them is on purpose. I know the Poles are happy they are there...

---

Your views are shaped by a 'in the rear with the gear' version of war. Not the graphic realities of it . The US has zero business playing the 'world's policeman' sacrificing US servicemen and killing thousands of people enforcing its version of right and wrong .

Your views are shaped by a black-white interpretation of US foreign policy repeated in mediocre public high schools . The reality is far more complicated as every country acts in defense of its own interests and produces its own version of 'justification'.



THE UNITED STATES BARES A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS WAR IN UKRAINE. WE ARE BEING LEAD BY A PRESIDENT WIDELY CONSIDERED TO BE SUFFERING FROM DEMENIA .


No matter how you slice it or dice it.....we are in a exceptionally dangerous situation . A situation we were under absolutely no obligation to get involved with .


Hopefully Putin is assassinated and his replacement will sue for peace in Ukraine .

Otherwise more people will continue to die.

And when its all over it is highly unlikely Ukraine will better off in the slightest.

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

---

Your argument is now on its 35th page.

---

Mmmmmhmmmmm.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

So, in your view gaining sovereignty means nothing... It the colonial master wants you back, the world should stay out of it since they were your property for the last 220 years. What is the point of gaining sovereignty?

Sam, I wouldn't have taking you and Canada for colonialists...

---

What part of 'spheres of influence' in the post WW2 nuclear age is incomprehensible to you ?

The US has invaded several countries in our hemisphere to 'protect national interests'.

Really think the US has the moral high ground in this Ukrainian carnage….think again .

---

Yes, we do have the moral high ground. Why? A - We didn't roll tanks into a sovereign nation. B-Ukraine asked us and NATO to help. C - We are not helping unilaterally. D- The UN voted against Russia 143 - 5. So, who supported the Russian annexation? Belarus, North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria.

I can pretty confidently say that when North Korea, Nicaragua, and Syria are the only ones standing with you, you should look in the mirror. It is not a them issue, it is a you issue.

---

We have invaded Panama...shot the hell out of their security forces......took prisoner the PRESIDENT of the country ....and stuck him in our Federal Prison . Where he remained until 2007 .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

We invaded Cuba in the 60's in the Bay of Pigs fiasco . Attempted to assassinate Cuba's leader several times.
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Sent US special forces and weapons to El Salvador.....killing locals who dared opposite the government of our choosing .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Invaded Haiti , Grenada , Nicaragua . the Dominican Republic . Assassinated various leftist politicians in south and Central American throughout post WW2 altercations .
But somehow we are different than Russia in dominating our sphere of influence ?

Get a ****ing clue .

There are no 'good guys' in all this insanity . Just national security interests.

Elitists playing their 'brinkmanship' games. Elitists trying to make money off various industrial opportunities generated by these 'brinkmanship' games.

This time it was Obama and later Joe 'brain damaged' Biden attempted to alter long established security arrangements . And don't kid yourself MILLIONS of dollars ended up in Ukrainian and Democratic pockets in the process.

Is Putin innocent in all this ? Of course not.

But Obama and Biden have contributed mightily this mess. And NOW Biden has placed 4700 ground troops within striking distance of the battlefield .

Connect the bloody dots.

---

The good or the bad is what happens to the population? How many places are worse off after the US intervenes??? Versus, how many happy Communists do you know? How many Venezuelans or Cubans?

You and everyone else that argues "sphere of influence" still do not answer what do the Ukrainians want? I know 2, she works with us. I had to verify we had hours on projects to justify he position. She literally just got her Grandmother out. Literally had to tell an 84 year old out, not to get in the trucks and go where the Russians want. They were trying to get people into Russia. This is first hand information. I can tell you, her situation is better here than in Russia and life in Ukraine was better before Putin decided it was his. I do not have any stories of people in Ukraine saying Putin is right, we welcome Russia...

---

You still just don't get it .

The US killed tens of thousands of North Korean civilians ........think they love us for it ?

The US killed hundreds of thousands of civilians throughout Vietnam . Think any of them thought the geo political ramifications were worth it dying for ? Or the deaths of their kids was worth it ?

We bombed the living **** out of Iraqi .....killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process. Think the survivors of those dead family members love the US ? That Iraqi is such a better place now even with all of their relatives dead ?

The United States ...first , last and always .....has protected its own interests. But being a 'democracy' the elitists have to sell various fantasies first..... to our dumb as grass electorate.

So of course.....you are not going to see many US media stories about ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for YEARS against the current Ukrainian central government .

That is simply not how propaganda works .

But the American people have fallen for the exact same BS as in Korea , Vietnam, Iraqi and Afghanistan .

Good God man ....95% of the American media had the incredible gall to suggest the Russians blew up their own natural gas pipelines ....rather than merely close the output values located in Russia .


And now...magically ...4700 US troops are acting as an obvious 'trip wire'.






Insanity

---

You don't get it. My views are based on real people, not statistics. Not propaganda read from my living room.
The Gulf War was right, why? I saw what the Iraqi's did to Kuwait and Kuwait City. I work with Ukrainians, who have family there now, not just a political philosophy. I have worked with Hyundai and attended DLI for Korean, so I spoke to Koreans. My Dad sponsored German Israeli's for their Citizenship, don't tell them how Russia is entitled to the sphere of influence. I work with Cuban's that literally had to go through Canada to fly to Cuba to visit family. I know people I served with in the 82nd that were on the ground in Granada, don't tell me there was nothing there or those students weren't in danger. I saw polaroid's of them hugging the guys that were in my unit, which I believe because I had the same experience in Kuwait City.

So, I have spoken with people that have to live under the yoke of what you and Sam say "just don't get involved". We do more way more good than harm.

So, my views are based on actual discussions and experiences. Not some internet report or poli sci white paper by an academic. I think the way you sign off a nation is ridiculous. I will stay naive, if that is the alternative. I don't care if it is a Dem or GOP in White House, this is not a conservative/progressive issue in my opinion. They roll tanks over a border, this is not a Spec Op to get one guy...

As for the 4700 101st Soldiers in Poland, there is no tripwire if Russia leaves Poland alone! There is no tripwire unless Putin wants to invade. Poland is far enough away, that any move on them is on purpose. I know the Poles are happy they are there...

---

Your views are shaped by a 'in the rear with the gear' version of war. Not the graphic realities of it . The US has zero business playing the 'world's policeman' sacrificing US servicemen and killing thousands of people enforcing its version of right and wrong .

Your views are shaped by a black-white interpretation of US foreign policy repeated in mediocre public high schools . The reality is far more complicated as every country acts in defense of its own interests and produces its own version of 'justification'.

That these concepts are simply too complicated for you to absorb is no longer my concern

THE UNITED STATES BARES A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS WAR IN UKRAINE. WE ARE BEING LEAD BY A PRESIDENT WIDELY CONSIDERED TO BE SUFFERING FROM DEMENIA .


No matter how you slice it or dice it.....we are in a exceptionally dangerous situation . A situation we were under absolutely no obligation to get involved with .


Hopefully Putin is assassinated and his replacement will sue for peace in Ukraine .

Otherwise more people will continue to die.

And when its all over it is highly unlikely Ukraine will better off in the slightest.

---

We do agree on some things. But this is simply not one. I would venture I have a pretty good handle on what war looks like and you are right no one wants. Iraq did a pretty fair job of creating hell on earth in kuwait. I was on Highway 80. I know i breathed the fumes for 6 months. So I have a pretty good idea.

Sometimes there is no alternative. We are supplying Ukraine with weapons. There are no US troops. We are part of a coalition and using economics. That is as safe as it gets while standing up to a dictator. Russia controls this narrative not the US.

I am done with this. We are talking in circles. This one I agree to disagree.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

---

Not my fault

In any case, your statement is very much disproved.

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

---

You continually roll circular arguments into the fray yet want no part of acknowledging that much of what you're spewing is a) not factually correct, b) not relevant to the conversation at hand, c) misplaced anger over things you think, but in all reality, don't analyze well, and d) resort to the same circular argument to prove the points a-c. It's unreal to watch. Perhaps you just really appreciate USSR for the architecture on the aggy campus and can't get over that.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

---

You continually roll circular arguments into the fray yet want no part of acknowledging that much of what you're spewing is a) not factually correct, b) not relevant to the conversation at hand, c) misplaced anger over things you think, but in all reality, don't analyze well, and d) resort to the same circular argument to prove the points a-c. It's unreal to watch. Perhaps you just really appreciate USSR for the architecture on the aggy campus and can't get over that.

---

My facts are 100% dead on .....you internet Rambo's are a propagandist wet dream . Minimal understanding of past US police actions , minimal understanding of similar US behavior in the western hemisphere , and zero willingness to learn .

Much like the ' love it or leave it ' BS during the early Vietnam era ......this Rambo routine doesn't allow any for rational examination of US policy in Ukraine . ' Putin is evil '......that's all anyone cares to hear. Rational questions about exactly WHY the US is willing to risk WW3 over Ukraine ....well that's just not worth discussing. .

The same ol ' good vs evil ' propaganda has magically made everyone forget just how incredibly inept this Biden administration really is . How reckless, how utterly incapable of managing a proxy war against the world's largest nuclear arsenal .

Did Biden's dementia get cured by blowing up international gas pipelines ?
Did his inability to speak rationally or clearly disappear by sending an under strength light infantry division within the range of Russian missiles and fighter jets ?

Exactly when did an administration so stupid as to leave BILLIONS of dollars of weapons to the Taliban earn such serene confidence in spending BILLIONS of dollars ( we don't possess ) ......to a country we have zero obligations to ?


" Well its the right thing to do ! " That is your sole ...and incredibly simplistic answer.

Oh really ?

Why ?

For the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for their own version of freedom for years ?
To protect the biolabs the US has established in Ukraine ?

This entire situation is far more complicated ...and far more dangerous than some of you internet geniuses comprehend .

And you are trusting this ticking time bomb to the oldest president in US history ......one that is clearly suffering from dementia .


What could possibly go wrong ?

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

---

You continually roll circular arguments into the fray yet want no part of acknowledging that much of what you're spewing is a) not factually correct, b) not relevant to the conversation at hand, c) misplaced anger over things you think, but in all reality, don't analyze well, and d) resort to the same circular argument to prove the points a-c. It's unreal to watch. Perhaps you just really appreciate USSR for the architecture on the aggy campus and can't get over that.

---

My facts are 100% dead on .....you internet Rambo's are a propagandist wet dream . Minimal understanding of past US police actions , minimal understanding of similar US behavior in the western hemisphere , and zero willingness to learn .

Much like the ' love it or leave it ' BS during the early Vietnam era ......this Rambo routine doesn't allow any for rational examination of US policy in Ukraine . ' Putin is evil '......that's all anyone cares to hear. Rational questions about exactly WHY the US is willing to risk WW3 over Ukraine ....well that's just not worth discussing. .

The same ol ' good vs evil ' propaganda has magically made everyone forget just how incredibly inept this Biden administration really is . How reckless, how utterly incapable of managing a proxy war against the world's largest nuclear arsenal .

Did Biden's dementia get cured by blowing up international gas pipelines ?
Did his inability to speak rationally or clearly disappear by sending an under strength light infantry division within the range of Russian missiles and fighter jets ?

Exactly when did an administration so stupid as to leave BILLIONS of dollars of weapons to the Taliban earn such serene confidence in spending BILLIONS of dollars ( we don't possess ) ......to a country we have zero obligations to ?


" Well its the right thing to do ! " That is your sole ...and incredibly simplistic answer.

Oh really ?

Why ?

For the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for their own version of freedom for years ?
To protect the biolabs the US has established in Ukraine ?

This entire situation is far more complicated ...and far more dangerous than some of you internet geniuses comprehend .

And you are trusting this ticking time bomb to the oldest president in US history ......one that is clearly suffering from dementia .


What could possibly go wrong ?

---

I do agree with you on the Biden Administration, which is why Putin is doing this now. No argument there.

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

He Hate Me said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

"The fight is here. I need ammunition, not a ride." --Zelensky.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-evacuation-intl

---

The most inspiring comment made by any war time bureaucrat since Winston Churchill .

Win, lose or pre mature death .......Zelensky will go down in history as the man who gave Ukrainians a fighting chance .

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

As much as dislike Bide and his policies, I do not see him reshuffling nothing with Ukraine. Ukraine has a say in this decision. Russia gave up their "influence" when they agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. Putin may not survive this mess in power.

Quote:

---

As for Taiwan, I cannot understand Biden's position. It seems to be pushing China to say the reward outweighs the cost.

---

As I have said before ……

If Russia had played the exact same game involving Mexico ….getting 'their man ' elected president then inviting Mexico to join the Warsaw Pact .

I doubt any president of the United States would tolerate it .
As such a defense agreement between Russia and Mexico could lead to the placement of Russian nuclear weapons unacceptably close to the US border .

Not sure how anyone can fail to understand such a comparison.

Would we invade Mexico like Putin finally invaded Ukraine ?

I don't know .

But US military chiefs WERE pushing Kennedy to invade Cuba if the Russians did not withdraw their missiles from the island

Instead Kennedy struck a deal and the US withdrew its nuclear missiles from Turkey after the Russians withdrew their missiles from Cuba ..

---

Everyone understands the part in bold, but it is not a relevant comparison to the current conflict. If that happened, we would invade Mexico, not Russia.

Supporting Ukrainian independence is an imminently safe and logical way to prevent a reconstituted Russian threat to Western Europe. .

---

A. EXACTLY. If Russia had spent millions of dollars meddling in Mexican politics and had their boy elected president of Mexico.
Who then requested Mexico's admission into the Warsaw Pact ……" we would invade Mexico not Russia ".

That is my point entirely.

As the US did meddle in Ukrainian politics, we did have our boy become president…..and we then constantly encouraged Ukraine to join NATO.

So how does anyone turn a blind eye to US actions that contributed to the Russian invasion of Ukraine ?

An invasion you admit the US might emulate if Mexico wanted to join the Warsaw Pact ?

Should Putin have invaded Ukraine …NO.

But it's naive to entertain the fantasy that the US didn't contribute to conditions that resulted in this war .


B. No we are not putting nuclear weapons in Ukraine now . But if Ukraine successfully joined NATO …such an option would certainly exist . Which is why Putin REPEATEDLY stated that Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable threat to Russian security.

A position the United States would certainly duplicate if Russia was to ultimately generate a similar option to place its nuclear weapons in Mexico.


C. No, the Biden administration actions since the invasion have not been remotely 'safe' . You don't sabotage the natural gas pipelines of other nations in international waters . That is clearly an act of war .

You don't place 4700 airborne troops within easy air range of a war zone . It's ridiculously provocative and such under equipped units can do little more than generate an 'incident '.

Members of your government don't openly and repeatedly suggest regime change with the not so subtle call for assassination .

Your government does not PUBLICLY announce the placement of all the weapon systems beeping provided . Weapons that are killing Russian troops . Really think the Russian people appreciate such reminders ? Really think such announcements intimidate the Russians toward the peace table ?




The only reasonable course of action now is to negotiate a peace settlement.

Otherwise this botched 'brinkmanship' game is going to result in the deaths of thousands of more Ukrainians .

---

Or we could just support Ukraine and let them properly defeat Russia, who will take the loss and go home rather than nuke-ing anyone. Because nuke-ing Nato to cover retreat from foreign lands is highly illogical.

Russian evac of Kherson has begun.

You are wringing your hands over the wring problem.

What happens when Russia withdraws and we see the Russian federation start to fall apart? Is it in our interest to see the Caucasus break away? How the hell is Russia going to stop China from "coming to the rescue of all its citizen farmers & miners" in Siberia? How will Iran and China divide up the central Asian states? Etc…. Is it possible that we are providing military and economic support to stabilize Russia 2-3 years from now?

I wouldn't bet much more than a case of beer on any of that, but I would be war gaming the hell out of it right now to be ready for it.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

and a lot of people wouldn't as well. I bet their opinion has changed quite a bit after their children and wives were raped, their livestock slaughtered, their homes/schools/churches leveled, and their elderly men tortured and slaughtered by the "we just want you to like us and know we're your brother" invading army.

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

and a lot of people wouldn't as well. I bet their opinion has changed quite a bit after their children and wives were raped, their livestock slaughtered, their homes/schools/churches leveled, and their elderly men tortured and slaughtered by the "we just want you to like us and know we're your brother" invading army.

---

Are you talking about our neo-nazi friends or about the Russians?

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"The Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars. Serve our country for well over a century"

Ahem. During that first century ...

The 'Quasi" War against France, 1798-1800

Barbary War, 1801-1805

War of 1812

Second Barbary War, 1815

Mexican War 1846-1848

Second Opium War, 1856-1859

Pig War, 1859 (invasion into Canada)

Formosa Expedition, 1867

US Expedition Into Korea, 1871

Las Cuevas War, 1875

Egyptian Expedition, 1882

---

What was this 1882 Egyptian Expedition ?

---

Google is your friend

---

Not worth my time.

---

You continually roll circular arguments into the fray yet want no part of acknowledging that much of what you're spewing is a) not factually correct, b) not relevant to the conversation at hand, c) misplaced anger over things you think, but in all reality, don't analyze well, and d) resort to the same circular argument to prove the points a-c. It's unreal to watch. Perhaps you just really appreciate USSR for the architecture on the aggy campus and can't get over that.

---

My facts are 100% dead on .....you internet Rambo's are a propagandist wet dream . Minimal understanding of past US police actions , minimal understanding of similar US behavior in the western hemisphere , and zero willingness to learn .

Much like the ' love it or leave it ' BS during the early Vietnam era ......this Rambo routine doesn't allow any for rational examination of US policy in Ukraine . ' Putin is evil '......that's all anyone cares to hear. Rational questions about exactly WHY the US is willing to risk WW3 over Ukraine ....well that's just not worth discussing. .

The same ol ' good vs evil ' propaganda has magically made everyone forget just how incredibly inept this Biden administration really is . How reckless, how utterly incapable of managing a proxy war against the world's largest nuclear arsenal .

Did Biden's dementia get cured by blowing up international gas pipelines ?
Did his inability to speak rationally or clearly disappear by sending an under strength light infantry division within the range of Russian missiles and fighter jets ?

Exactly when did an administration so stupid as to leave BILLIONS of dollars of weapons to the Taliban earn such serene confidence in spending BILLIONS of dollars ( we don't possess ) ......to a country we have zero obligations to ?


" Well its the right thing to do ! " That is your sole ...and incredibly simplistic answer.

Oh really ?

Why ?

For the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who have been fighting for their own version of freedom for years ?
To protect the biolabs the US has established in Ukraine ?

This entire situation is far more complicated ...and far more dangerous than some of you internet geniuses comprehend .

And you are trusting this ticking time bomb to the oldest president in US history ......one that is clearly suffering from dementia .


What could possibly go wrong ?

---

it's pretty hilarious what you assume of someone like me. I hate Biden as much or more than anyone on this site, but I'm also able to separate my ideas about this from his dementia riddled brain. You'd see that if you'd quit foaming at the mouth for 10 seconds, or if you recall anything about my posting history. I've been on these boards for a long while.

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appease him. Let him stick out anatomy, then chop it
off. That's pretty much what we've done.

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

As much as dislike Bide and his policies, I do not see him reshuffling nothing with Ukraine. Ukraine has a say in this decision. Russia gave up their "influence" when they agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. Putin may not survive this mess in power.

Quote:

---

As for Taiwan, I cannot understand Biden's position. It seems to be pushing China to say the reward outweighs the cost.

---

As I have said before ……

If Russia had played the exact same game involving Mexico ….getting 'their man ' elected president then inviting Mexico to join the Warsaw Pact .

I doubt any president of the United States would tolerate it .
As such a defense agreement between Russia and Mexico could lead to the placement of Russian nuclear weapons unacceptably close to the US border .

Not sure how anyone can fail to understand such a comparison.

Would we invade Mexico like Putin finally invaded Ukraine ?

I don't know .

But US military chiefs WERE pushing Kennedy to invade Cuba if the Russians did not withdraw their missiles from the island

Instead Kennedy struck a deal and the US withdrew its nuclear missiles from Turkey after the Russians withdrew their missiles from Cuba ..

---

Everyone understands the part in bold, but it is not a relevant comparison to the current conflict. If that happened, we would invade Mexico, not Russia.

Supporting Ukrainian independence is an imminently safe and logical way to prevent a reconstituted Russian threat to Western Europe. .

---

A. EXACTLY. If Russia had spent millions of dollars meddling in Mexican politics and had their boy elected president of Mexico.
Who then requested Mexico's admission into the Warsaw Pact ……" we would invade Mexico not Russia ".

That is my point entirely.

As the US did meddle in Ukrainian politics, we did have our boy become president…..and we then constantly encouraged Ukraine to join NATO.

So how does anyone turn a blind eye to US actions that contributed to the Russian invasion of Ukraine ?

An invasion you admit the US might emulate if Mexico wanted to join the Warsaw Pact ?

Should Putin have invaded Ukraine …NO.

But it's naive to entertain the fantasy that the US didn't contribute to conditions that resulted in this war .


B. No we are not putting nuclear weapons in Ukraine now . But if Ukraine successfully joined NATO …such an option would certainly exist . Which is why Putin REPEATEDLY stated that Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable threat to Russian security.

A position the United States would certainly duplicate if Russia was to ultimately generate a similar option to place its nuclear weapons in Mexico.


C. No, the Biden administration actions since the invasion have not been remotely 'safe' . You don't sabotage the natural gas pipelines of other nations in international waters . That is clearly an act of war .

You don't place 4700 airborne troops within easy air range of a war zone . It's ridiculously provocative and such under equipped units can do little more than generate an 'incident '.

Members of your government don't openly and repeatedly suggest regime change with the not so subtle call for assassination .

Your government does not PUBLICLY announce the placement of all the weapon systems beeping provided . Weapons that are killing Russian troops . Really think the Russian people appreciate such reminders ? Really think such announcements intimidate the Russians toward the peace table ?




The only reasonable course of action now is to negotiate a peace settlement.

Otherwise this botched 'brinkmanship' game is going to result in the deaths of thousands of more Ukrainians .

---

Or we could just support Ukraine and let them properly defeat Russia, who will take the loss and go home rather than nuke-ing anyone. Because nuke-ing Nato to cover retreat from foreign lands is highly illogical.

Russian evac of Kherson has begun.

You are wringing your hands over the wring problem.

What happens when Russia withdraws and we see the Russian federation start to fall apart? Is it in our interest to see the Caucasus break away? How the hell is Russia going to stop China from "coming to the rescue of all its citizen farmers & miners" in Siberia? How will Iran and China divide up the central Asian states? Etc…. Is it possible that we are providing military and economic support to stabilize Russia 2-3 years from now?

I wouldn't bet much more than a case of beer on any of that, but I would be war gaming the hell out of it right now to be ready for it.

---

Bottomline is that Russia's performance has caused pause by China. Alot of their military tech is Russian based. So will it work?

But, If China waned to take Eastern Russia there is not much Russia could do to stop them.

Russia needs to be careful. Putin has positioned Russia well in Artic. Does he continue to drive up the risk over Ukraine? He is in a precarious situation, taking on NATO is out of the question.

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

and a lot of people wouldn't as well. I bet their opinion has changed quite a bit after their children and wives were raped, their livestock slaughtered, their homes/schools/churches leveled, and their elderly men tortured and slaughtered by the "we just want you to like us and know we're your brother" invading army.

---

It has changed quite a bit.

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

Who is listening to propaganda now?

---

Not just listening. He's been spewing it for awhile.

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

Who is listening to propaganda now?

---

Not just listening. He's been spewing it for awhile.

---

yep. Pretty funny watching the very left and very right both spewing for appeasement to Putin here.

Z =

He Hate Me said:

---

Z =

---

I remember her. She is Deadpool now...

trey3216 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

We are giving more than weapons, we are giving aid as well. Negotiated settlement is great, unless you live in one of the areas giving over to Russia.

---

A lot of people in those areas would prefer it.

---

Who is listening to propaganda now?

---

Not just listening. He's been spewing it for awhile.

---

yep. Pretty funny watching the very left and very right both spewing for appeasement to Putin here.

---

It's also humorous to see all the complaining about the "Elitist" policy of the US while benefiting from that elitist position. Again, the two extremes meeting at the same point.

whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

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Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

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I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

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Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

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That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

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No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

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When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

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The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

---

The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

---

I don't think many on here are disagreeing with this point. I for one agree. The only issue I see is that Russia invaded, NATO did not choose the time for these policies or the US leader. Putin did, for all the reasons you say. So, this is a reaction, or opportune move, not a planned plan that we made the choice Biden is our guy...

If Trump, DeSantis, Pompeo or Halley was President, I suspect Putin would not have moved like this against Ukraine. Your points are correct in my opinion, Biden is less than adequate for this action, but the option is do nothing for 3 years...