And I'm STILL waiting for you to answer whether you believe empathy, forgiveness, mercy, and justice are good things or not.

Aren't you concerned about how bad your theology looks right now to others who may be reading this forum, by not answering? Don't you care about your witness?

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

TexasScientist said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

---

In your view of the world, there is no actual good or evil, so there isn't much you can contribute other than to argue that nothing is actually good or evil, it just depends on what the powerful say at a given time.

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

---

In your view of the world, there is no actual good or evil, so there isn't much you can contribute other than to argue that nothing is actually good or evil, it just depends on what the powerful say at a given time.

---

No, we have definitions for good and evil in the context of morality. Those definitions should be based upon harm. In your world, good and evil is defined upon the notions of what a powerful clergy tells you, with justification attributed to their interpretation of primitive claims of imagined authority, without regard to harm.

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

---

In your view of the world, there is no actual good or evil, so there isn't much you can contribute other than to argue that nothing is actually good or evil, it just depends on what the powerful say at a given time.

---

No, we have definitions for good and evil in the context of morality. Those definitions should be based upon harm. In your world, good and evil is defined upon the notions of what a powerful clergy tells you, with justification attributed to their interpretation of primitive claims of imagined authority, without regard to harm.

---

your definitions for good and evil are just like your origins and existence: they come from nothing, they are temporal, and they end in nothing.

TexasScientist: "No, we have definitions for good and evil in the context of morality. Those definitions should be based upon harm. "

Thank you for that very humanist definition of good and evil. It helps explain why so many evil things find support among the population: Those people do not comprehend the damage done by some of their actions, because they do not perceive the harm they do in those actions, words and policies.

The value of Religion is that if true, that Religion will provide clear instruction on how - and sometimes why - to serve God. What needs to be done first, is to separate wheat from chaff, lies from truth.

That, of course, has fed countless arguments and disputes. For me, the focus in sorting that out begins with observing the motive and purpose apparent in the work and teachings.

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

---

In your view of the world, there is no actual good or evil, so there isn't much you can contribute other than to argue that nothing is actually good or evil, it just depends on what the powerful say at a given time.

---

No, we have definitions for good and evil in the context of morality. Those definitions should be based upon harm. In your world, good and evil is defined upon the notions of what a powerful clergy tells you, with justification attributed to their interpretation of primitive claims of imagined authority, without regard to harm.

---

"We have definitions of good and evil in the context of morality" is a nonsensical statement when morality itself, and the "harm" you say it should avoid is based simply on the word of the powerful in a particular society at a given time, and that is essentially what you offer as "morality."

I my world view, morality is dependent on the fact that we have value collectively and as individuals because we are created both by God and in the image of God.

Harm only has meaning in the context of morality if and because those who are being harmed have value. If human life arose by chance and there's nothing beyond the physical universe, then we have no actual value. Without that value, there is no moral distinction between roasting and eating a tomato and roasting and eating a recently killed newborn human being.

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

That question is how the concept came about. Humans defining the concept and drawing a distinction between them.

---

In your view of the world, there is no actual good or evil, so there isn't much you can contribute other than to argue that nothing is actually good or evil, it just depends on what the powerful say at a given time.

---

No, we have definitions for good and evil in the context of morality. Those definitions should be based upon harm. In your world, good and evil is defined upon the notions of what a powerful clergy tells you, with justification attributed to their interpretation of primitive claims of imagined authority, without regard to harm.

---

"We have definitions of good and evil in the context of morality" is a nonsensical statement when morality itself, and the "harm" you say it should avoid is based simply on the word of the powerful in a particular society at a given time, and that is essentially what you offer as "morality."

I my world view, morality is dependent on the fact that we have value collectively and as individuals because we are created both by God and in the image of God.

Harm only has meaning in the context of morality if and because those who are being harmed have value. If human life arose by chance and there's nothing beyond the physical universe, then we have no actual value. Without that value, there is no moral distinction between roasting and eating a tomato and roasting and eating a recently killed newborn human being.

---

maybe the things we do that are defined as evil are no different than when infanticide occurs in the grizzly population. It's just nature. If it is just nature, it can't really be evil then.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

In your world view, God isn't. Given that, you have little to contribute to a discussion of whether God is good or has any other trait.

Incidentally, God is good.

Quash: "God is not good, so that point falls."

An unsupported opinion hardly disproves the point, quash.

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

If God is not good, then by definition God is evil, since evil is defined as that which is not good.

And if God is evil, then He did not create evil, because that would mean He created Himself which is nonsense logic.

So either which way, your view that "God created everything" must mean God created evil since "everything" includes evil, is failed logic.

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

You can't be serious. Scientists throughout history were hampered by their ignorance and presuppositions of gods, or a god to account for what they could not understand. They were persecuted by the religious institutions of power for the scientific revelations they uncovered, until it was abundantly clear science was true and religious belief was false. Faced with the evidence of reality, religious institutions, in order to remain credible, had to modify how they interpreted their religious doctrine. Otherwise, they couldn't to maintain the faith, influence, and power religion held over their culture. When you get down to the basic purposes of control and sway over people, there is no real fundamental difference in the various religions, including Christianity. And yes, science is at odds with every religious doctrine. People don't crawl out of their graves, or caskets at funerals. Virgins don't give birth, with or without relations with a god. Burning bushes don't talk. People don't ascend into space, speak in tongues. The sun doesn't stand still, etc. The universe is more than 6,000 years old (something even the Catholic Church had to recognize). Consciousness is a biological and physical function of the brain. Scientific observation and testing confirm it. We don't have to understand every aspect and nuance of the consciousness to know this.

---

I didn't say that throughout history, science and people's understanding of Christianity didn't conflict. I am saying that science is not at odds with Christianity. If you disagree, then by all means, give us science that conflicts with or debunks Christianity. You've been challenged with this before multiple times, and you failed each time. So let's make it another, just so you'll go away for a while - then come back, recycling your same old failed arguments, hoping no one remembers your previous failure. Wash, rinse, repeat.

---

.... Science tells us that cognition is a neurological process that develops, beginning with conception and ending with death. Science tells us when the brain dies, all cognition ends. Science tells us hallucinations and dreams are biochemical processes. I have to repeat what science tells us, because I can't change the truth to fit religious attempts to alter reality. Where would we be if Galileo had scrapped his views, quit repeating, and embraced Church censorship? Religion stands in opposition to understanding and embracing reality, until it has no choice but to modify its religious views in the face of science. It has no choice but to reinterpret its beliefs to fill the remaining and evershrinking gap.

---

Science does NOT tell us that consciousness and subjective experience are ONLY biochemical processes. Science has absolutely no explanation for how atoms and molecules can form subjective experience.

"Religion stands in opposition to understanding and embracing reality.." - you've repeated this over and over. Lay out exactly what you've proven to be "reality" that I or other Christians have been standing in opposition to.

---

You're the one claiming a reality outside of what we can know through scientific understanding. Demonstrate it. Let's see you supernaturally move a mountain. Science says you can't, religion says you can.

---

Do you believe that your thoughts and actions coming from your brain is due to choice/free will, or is it due to physics?

If you believe it is all physics, then how do you know that what you're believing right now is truth, and not just what you were determined to believe via physics?

If you believe that it is choice/free will, then how are you moving the atoms and molecules in your brain according to your will? If you can move atoms and molecules, then why would it be impossible to move a mountain?

---

It's a biologic function of physics.

We obviously have the ability to make assumptions, evaluations and decisions within the context of our learned frame of reference.

Decision making is a contained a neuro-biological process. Explain to me with examples of how you've supernaturally moved a mountain.

---

If it is just a biologic function of physics, then any assumption, evaluation, or decision you make is still the determined result of physics. Your whole learned frame of reference is the product of deterministic physics, you had no choice in the matter. Anything that stems from this learned frame of reference, likewise, is strictly determined by physics alone.

If this is the case, then why do you care about those who believe in religion? They had no choice but to believe it, physics determined it. In your grand scheme of things, their belief in religion is not "wrong" because there is no such thing as "wrong" in determinism.

In addition, since your thinking is similarly dispositioned, there is no basis on which to claim your perceptions accurately reflect ultimate reality and truth. Your "objectivity" and "empiricism" are determined only by physics, and so any reasoning derived from these is only confirming the learned frame of reference from which they themselves are derived....a learned frame of reference that itself is also derived only from physics. In essence, you are claiming that physical reality is ultimate truth and reality....because of physics. Circular logic, a fallacy.

---

Everyone (who is not mentally impaired) has the ability to analyze and make decisions base upon what they have learned.

People's beliefs are based upon what they have learned, regardless of its accuracy or veracity. They have the ability to change those fallacious beliefs when presented with accurate information, once they can overcome the hurdle of recognizing their beliefs and knowledge were based upon error, and inaccuracies.

Your premises and reasoning are flawed by your reductionist desire to oversimplify complexity, in an attempt to make a point, that shows you don't understand physics, and science.

---

If there is any mental impairment or lack of understanding, it is on your part for your failure to understand the logical implications of your thinking.

If everyone has the ability to analizye and make decisions based on what they learned, and then CHANGE them based on their perception of "correctness" and "error" - are they doing this freely, or is it merely the inevitable result of unguided physics? You can not have it both ways. Either you can guide the biology and physics in your brain, or you can't. If you say we CAN guide the biology and physics, then you are invoking the supernatural. If you say we CAN'T, then whatever a person ends up thinking, whether "right" or "wrong" in your view, or whether or not they can "change" their thinking to conform to whatever is "right" or "wrong" in your view, is merely the end result of the pathway that was determined by physics alone. If all there is is physics, then it couldn't be any other way.

You say that everyone "who is not mentally impaired" has the ability to analyze, learn, and make decisions. Serious question - how do you know that YOU aren't mentally impaired to a degree? Mentally impaired people are only that way because it was the end result of physics, right? So how can you assume that the physics that resulted in you, landed in all the right ways for you to have the ability to accurately perceive truth and reality?

---

A dog has a limited ability to analyze a simple problem and resolve it for the desired outcome. A chimp, or a monkey can do the same, as many other animals. Do you believe they have the same supernatural abilities that you have? Clearly brain development and advancement is a factor that sets species apart from one another.

Clearly we have an advanced brain in comparison to other animals. Whether it is through a species unique evolutionary development, or through individual development, physical impairment from trauma or disease, the brain is where cognition occurs in all species. Consciousness and cognition are physical biological processes, as any other biological function. Because of our evolutionary advanced state, we have the most advanced ability to reason and make choices. Some more than others (autism for example). Consciousness depends upon brain activity. You didn't have consciousness until your brain was sufficiently developed after conception. There is no evidence that consciousness and cognition can extend beyond and without brain activity. We don't have to understand all of the details and intricacies to make that observation.

---

The only observation you're making, is that biology is a necessary component of consciousness. You are not proving that it is a sufficient component. To illustrate, here is an analogy of your argument, bolded above:

"Seeing moving pictures depends on TV activity. You couldn't see the pictures until the TV was finished being built from the factory. There is no evidence that the pictures can be seen without the TV being "on". We don't have to understand all the details of how the pictures are made to make that observation."

This argument can NOT be used to claim that the entirety of being able to view pictures comes from the physical TV itself. While it is correct that you need a physical TV to see the picture (it's necessary), it completely misses the fact that the TV is merely a physical receiver of an outside signal that is completely independent from the TV, and can not produce the pictures without it (it's not sufficient). Doc's example of the radio antenna is just a reiteration of this point.

---

You have no observation to suggest that biology is anything otherwise. Biologic function is not a component of consciousness, it is the totality of which consciousness is a component and product.
That's a poor analogy. Ability to view and process what is observed on a TV is a part of the brain's conscious function. This is true of any observations made by the brain. There is no comparison between the operation of a television and the brain, other than the laws of physics govern the operation of both. A TV is an inanimate object.

---

The observation that suggests subjective conscious experience is more than biology, is that there doesn't exist any fundamental concept in biology that can even begin to explain it. One observational, empirical proof of that, is your absolute failure in providing even a sniff of one. And you fail because it can't be done.

You must have some sort of deficit which prevents you from understanding analogies. The TV is analogous to the biological/physical brain, and the pictures on the tv are analogous to subjective conscious experience. Though you need the physical TV to see the pictures, the pictures are not the product of the TV itself.

---

We don't know everything, yet. But, what we understand about neuroscience, biology, and physics is the fundamental foundation upon which to conduct scientific experiments, to unravel what we don't know. When Peter Higgs proposed what is now know as the Higgs boson, we didn't know it or the Higgs field existed until it was discovered at the Cern LHC. The concepts to being to explain it rest in biochemistry, neurology, and physics. Your ideas have no basis or even come close to any other explanation.

The TV and brain are not comparable. One is inorganic, and the other is organic, with all of the complexities that come from organics, including consciousness. There is simply no evidence that consciousness is broadcast from somewhere else in the universe, or even into our universe from a multiverse.

---

The discovery of the Higgs boson is just the discovery of smaller physics. It's a missing puzzle piece of a larger framework of physics that can be predicted and searched for. It's physics being explained by more fundamental physics.

More fundamental biology can't explain conscious, subjective experience. No amount of smaller biology that we can look for in a powerful microscope will explain it. There is no concept or even philosophy in biology that will even allow you to predict a mechanism. Because you ultimately have to link personal subjective experience to physical matter. Conceptually, it's in a different realm.

You continue to fail to grasp the point about the TV. It's not about equating the TV to the brain. It's illustrating the major flaw in your argument, that just because a physical unit (brain, TV) is required for something (consciousness, pictures) it doesn't necessarily mean that physical unit is the SOLE producer of that something.

Look at your sentence - "The TV and brain are not comparable. One is inorganic, and the other is organic, with all of the complexities that come from organics, including consciousness". Can you spot your fallacy there? You're arguing that consciousness can indeed come only from the brain, and is unlike a TV, because the brain is more complex.....since it is able to produce consciousness. You are assuming the truth of what you're arguing, in order to argue for its truth. It's begging the question, i.e. circular reasoning. This is failed logic.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

If God is not good, then by definition God is evil, since evil is defined as that which is not good.

And if God is evil, then He did not create evil, because that would mean He created Himself which is nonsense logic.

So either which way, your view that "God created everything" must mean God created evil since "everything" includes evil, is failed logic.

---

It is not my view that a non-existent being created everything.

It is my view that the human created myth is deplorable.

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

If God is not good, then by definition God is evil, since evil is defined as that which is not good.

And if God is evil, then He did not create evil, because that would mean He created Himself which is nonsense logic.

So either which way, your view that "God created everything" must mean God created evil since "everything" includes evil, is failed logic.

---

It is not my view that a non-existent being created everything.

It is my view that the human created myth is deplorable.

---

It is my observation that if you ducked any more, you would be a Mallard.

Why do you fear addressing the existence of good and evil?

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

If God is not good, then by definition God is evil, since evil is defined as that which is not good.

And if God is evil, then He did not create evil, because that would mean He created Himself which is nonsense logic.

So either which way, your view that "God created everything" must mean God created evil since "everything" includes evil, is failed logic.

---

It is not my view that a non-existent being created everything.

It is my view that the human created myth is deplorable.

---

Do you have a view on good and evil, definitions?

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

How can Christians believe God created everything, if everything includes Himself? In order to create oneself, you must exist before you exist, which is logical nonsense. Obviously, your understanding of what is meant by "everything" is in error.

Even if you mean "everything" as in every conceivable thing outside of God, then it is still logical nonsense. If God IS something, such as "good", then the concept of "that which God is NOT" must also logically exist as a mere consequence of His existence and Him being "good" - it isn't a consequence of His doing, i.e. His "creation". That was the point of the house builder example. Evil is that which God is NOT, so to say that God created evil is nonsensical.

---

God is not good, so that point falls.

---

If God is not good, then by definition God is evil, since evil is defined as that which is not good.

And if God is evil, then He did not create evil, because that would mean He created Himself which is nonsense logic.

So either which way, your view that "God created everything" must mean God created evil since "everything" includes evil, is failed logic.

---

It is not my view that a non-existent being created everything.

It is my view that the human created myth is deplorable.

---

I bet you sing like Charles Durning.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

So Waco is a Maltheist.

That will not end well for you, sir.

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. And all men by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth.

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening.

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

I ask you again - isn't it possible that God has the power to stop the earthquake but chooses not to, so that he can use it for eternal good in the end? You failed to prove that this is impossible. You tried, but you were basing your argument on a woefully incorrect understanding of what God being "all powerful" means. Now that you've been corrected, and assuming you understand your error, answer the question again - isn't it possible?

Waco1947 said:

---

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?

---

God does not NEED us to worship Him. God is Perfect. He doesn't need anything.

If God is the creator of all, we owe it to Him to worship Him.

The old Baltimore catechism asked, "Why did God make you?"
The answer: "God made me to know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next."

Waco1947 said:

---

2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Bless your heart. You deeply wounded. This has been posted and asked by you probably a dozen plus times. Many on here have answered, well; however, you refuse to accept it, possibly due to your deep wounds. Please know that I pray for you daily to abandon your false, Process Theology and return to classical Christian theism.

Having said that, you once again query about Natural evil (one of the two types of evil and suffering - the other being Moral evil.)

God created the universe in statu viae, "in a state of journeying". As the world continues it's journey, our tectonic plates will move causing earthquakes. Sadly, people will die in these cases where man has not developed those areas with earthquake-resistant buildings.

God allowed this Natural evil to happen with His permissive will. God will allow good to come out of this evil. It could be the thousands of people that banded together to help the survivors. It could be better housing and infrastructure to help prevent losses like this again. We may never fully understand what good that is on this side of the veil.

Finally, I suggest that you read Thomas Aquinas' treatment of the Problem of Evil in his Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars (First Part), Question 49. The cause of evil. I can assure you, St Thomas (one of the smartest people to ever walk the earth) asked and answered this question very thoroughly. He "steel-mans the arguments. It's a little long, but that's St Thomas.

When I read his questions and objections, I always amazed that he is able to reply concisely and effectively to all of his objections.

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

1. God does not need us to worship him to be complete, but we need us to worship him to be complete.

2. Your logic fails here because an earthquake is not evil.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

God being perfect love and God allowing suffering on the Earth are not polar opposites.

That is where you go wrong and become heretical from the get go.

You seem to think that the only God worth worshiping is the one who does everything you like.

Apparently if he does not create a racially harmonious queer positive paradise on earth with zero human suffering or death then he is just not a perfect God.

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

Show me evidence that suffering is "evil."

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

God being perfect love and God allowing suffering on the Earth are not polar opposites.

That is where you go wrong and become heretical from the get go.

You seem to think that the only God worth worshiping is the one who does everything you like.

Apparently if he does not create a racially harmonious queer positive paradise on earth with zero human suffering or death then he is just not a perfect God.

---

Olsteen47???

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

God being perfect love and God allowing suffering on the Earth are not polar opposites.

That is where you go wrong and become heretical from the get go.

You seem to think that the only God worth worshiping is the one who does everything you like.

Apparently if he does not create a racially harmonious queer positive paradise on earth with zero human suffering or death then he is just not a perfect God.

---

Olsteen47???

---

Well, I will say this much for Waco:

I have never heard him say anything that implied Jesus wanted you to give him all your money.

I personally blend science and spirituality together. Very much 'Idealism' and Christianity blended.

I'm convinced that consciousness is fundamental reality because of Donald Hoffman's interface theory, amplituhedron/decorated permutations along with math for a conscious agents theory. It also meshes well with the observer effect in quantum mechanics.

You may ask, "how did consciousness come into existence?". I rely on Chris Langan's (195 IQ) CTMU theory which axiomatically shows how the substrate of reality is potential and potential renders syntax (computation/language) which takes on teleologic behavior of constructing consciousness.

What that means is consciousness is using spacetime to experience itself. Space and time emerges like an interface for consciousness to have utility. Our sensory systems are being fed fiction that simplifies a much too complex underlying conscious agents structure for single conscious experience to perform. Also a single experience (humanity) is needed for consciousness to understand/explore itself. So it uses spacetime to simplify things. Like a folder on your computer looks like an icon but its really millions of voltages toggling which you couldn't physically/mentally do. Metaphorically spacetime is akin to that folder and consciousness is akin to the underlying computer making that folder appear.

God in my model is the sum of all conscious agents, not necessarily an individual conscious. God made us in his image, we are part of god. Jesus was/is fully conscious: a way for god to experience being a single conscious agent in a duality . This provided forgiveness and understanding of our experience.



Humanity is like the egg theory where god has to be every single person that ever existed. Every time you victimized someone, you were victimizing yourself.

When we discuss why there's good/evil etc., the way the world/humanity/universe is constructed is the only logical and capable manner for it to exist and those awful byproducts have to be there if we want to exist in this manner.

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

Then ANSWER the question:

Quote:

---

Do you believe that empathy, understanding, helping others, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are all GOOD things, and are a part of LOVE?

---

If you refuse to answer this YET AGAIN then it's clear you are dishonest and you have no real intention of understanding.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

God being perfect love and God allowing suffering on the Earth are not polar opposites. Yes, they are! What nonsense! You claim God is perfect in love yet allows suffering? Loving us through suffering is God's job but "allowing" as if it is within God's purview, too, is rubbish.
Do you allow suffering for you children? You allow them the consequences of their sin but would you allow evil into your home?

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

Then ANSWER the question:

Quote:

---

Do you believe that empathy, understanding, helping others, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are all GOOD things, and are a part of LOVE? YES

---

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

Then ANSWER the question:

Quote:

---

Do you believe that empathy, understanding, helping others, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are all GOOD things, and are a part of LOVE? YES

---

---

---

Waco1947 said:
Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God' all powerful watch according to you..
In real world if the war in Ukraine is under God' watch then God allows Putin uses his free will for evil and do the innocent suffer. Not a good look for your God

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

Then ANSWER the question:

Quote:

---

Do you believe that empathy, understanding, helping others, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are all GOOD things, and are a part of LOVE?

---

If you refuse to answer this YET AGAIN then it's clear you are dishonest and you have no real intention of understanding.

---

Waco1947 said:
Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God' all powerful watch according to you..
In real world if the war in Ukraine is under God' watch then God allows Putin uses his free will for evil and do the innocent suffer. Not a good look for your God

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

quash said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"There is no evidence of the supernatural ". This is so right yet evangelicals cannot prove their basic premise - God is supernatural being. Their only argument is "The Bible says so" wjhich is not a source for the real l, scientific world we live in

---

No evidence of the supernatural EXCEPT for:

The Shroud of Turin
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Juan Diego's cactus-fiber Tilma from Dec. 12, 1531
The Miracle of the Sun in Ftima, Portugal on Oct. 13, 1917
The 70+ miraculous healings at Lourdes, France
The many Eucharistic Miracles that have appeared going back to the 8th century

If ONE miracle has ever presented itself, that alone is evidence of a supernatural.

If you believe in ghosts, spirits, or even demons, that is evidence of a supernatural.

---

The evidence against? All those not supernaturally healed.
The miracles are simply myths of the RC church

---

Please explain how 70 different people have been healed with no medical intervention and whose cases were reviewed by an independent medical board made up of believers and unbelievers.

Please explain how someone made the Shroud of Turn when we cannot replicate it with today's technology.

---

If God is good then ALL would healed.

---

Why?

---

It is logical -- If God is good then where does evil come from. in your theism God created everything. If evil exists then it comes from God's creative hand but in the nature of God as good how can evil possibly come from God. If 80 saved and hundreds of thousands not healed then one has a very fickle God who is supposed be good.
Your theism is logically absurd.

---

Do you believe God is "good"? If so, then by logic you must believe that "NOT good" exists as well. Otherwise, "good" doesn't have any meaning, it just means "everything". So just by the nature of the fact that God is "good", does that mean, then, that he created "NOT good"?

Illustrated another way: if you build a house, then immediately there is the concept of "inside" the house, and "outside" the house. Does that mean if you build a house, it means you've built the whole "outside" of the house as well? Wouldn't that be logically absurd?

---

In your example you make Waco the builder. Which avoids the point, artlessly.

Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

Have you considered that there can't be good without evil?

How can we know anything without distinction?

---

Still quash's point "Your God is the builder, and you claim he built everything. Thus the logical conclusion to be drawn from your argument is "Yes, God created everything and everything included evil".

---

God lets us have free will. A byproduct of free will is the ability to turn away from god which produces evil.

Creating reality without free will is also evil. If god created us without free will we would be slaves to him. Could God truly be worshipped/loved if he made beings that have no ability to do otherwise?

---

Two ideas for your consideration:

1)Does God who is perfect within God's own self need humans to worship God?
2)Is an earthquake evil that kills 55,000 in Turkey evil? Did God have the power to avert that earthquake because in your theism He does? Obviously God did Not averted it; Therefore, God must be evil for God allowed the Earthquake and the grief and suffering that ensued.

---

Come on...this stuff is basic level theology.

1. God being perfect and eternal he needs nothing. So of course he does not need humans to worship him. But he does desire a relationship with his creation. No, you claim God is perfect -- Why would God need a relationship?

This part is true. And all human by right should worship their creator and Lord. Mankind has a inborn need to worship.

2. Earthquakes are a natural part of the life of the Earth. But your all powerful God allows all that suffering. Why would a perfect creation by God even have earthquakes?

"Earthquakes are the result of the moving of tectonic plates and the earth's crust. It is the result of the natural laws that God has set in the universe to govern our physical existence.
While it is true that earthquakes can be destructive, they are actually essential to life. It was through earthquakes and volcanoes that new land was created and raised. Earthquakes help renew the soil.
It was because of earthquakes that we have continents, islands, and beaches. Scientists have concluded that earthquakes and resulting tsunamis have given birth to new habitats for animals and plants, not just on land, but also in the seas."

The existence of natural disasters and their consequences is part of living on a world that is passing away and being human...there is in the end no escape from death. It comes for us all in the end.

This existence of tragedy and suffering and death...its just part of being human and does not in any way disprove the existence of God...who could of course stop anything bad from ever happening. It does IF your God is all powerful. You are stuck to opposing ideas God is loving and perfect AND God allows suffering which is the polar opposite of perfect love.

---

Is your God all powerful or not? Yes or no?
Is your God perfect love? Yes or no?
You cannot simply "Man has free will" because earthquakes happen under God watch.
AND under God watch if Putin uses his free will for evil then why do the innocent suffer?

---

God being perfect love and God allowing suffering on the Earth are not polar opposites. Yes, they are! What nonsense! You claim God is perfect in love yet allows suffering? Loving us through suffering is God's job but "allowing" as if it is within God's purview, too, is rubbish.
Do you allow suffering for you children? You allow them the consequences of their sin but would you allow evil into your home?

---

---

Yes, I allow suffering for my child and, yes, by allowing myself and my wife and child into our home, I "allow" evil into my home. I also allow evil into my home any time I have a friend over for dinner.

How much suffering could an all powerful and all living God allow and you still accept that he is an all powerful and all loving God? Give me a description of that level of suffering.