This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
What's your best evidence for the existence of God?
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Last: 1 yr ago by BusyTarpDuster2017
>>
Music: Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson
Lyrics: Neil Peart
I've got twelve disciples and a Buddha smile
The Garden of Allah Viking Valhalla
A miracle once in a while
I've got a pantheon of animals in a pagan soul
Vishnu and Gaia Aztec and Maya
Dance around my totem pole
I believe in what I see
I believe in what I hear
I believe that what I'm feeling
Changes how the world appears
Angels and demons dancing in my head
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed
Media messiahs preying on my fears
Pop culture - prophets playing in my ears
I've got celestial mechanics
To synchronize my stars
Seasonal migrations daily variations
World of the unlikely and bizarre
I've got idols and icons, unspoken holy vows
Thoughts to keep well-hidden
sacred and forbidden
Free to browse among the holy cows
That's why I believe
Angels and demons inside of me
Saviors and Satans all around me
Sweet chariot, swing low, coming for me
>>
pro ecclesia, pro javelina
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
How does the archeologists know the pot was designed? How does he know it was, as you said, designed by "a human".quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
Your archeologists recognizes design when he sees it. Some scientists recognize design when they see it, as in the clotting factor and healing process, bacterial flagellum DNA…
So, now we all agree that design can be identified.
LIB,MR BEARS said:How does the archeologists know the pot was designed? How does he know it was, as you said, designed by "a human".quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
Your archeologists recognizes design when he sees it. Some scientists recognize design when they see it, as in the clotting factor and healing process, bacterial flagellum DNA…
So, now we all agree that design can be identified.
In human artifacts sure. Not in what you listed.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
In the irreducibly complex rotary engine of bacterial flagellum, what is the alternative to design? How would you describe it?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:How does the archeologists know the pot was designed? How does he know it was, as you said, designed by "a human".quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
Your archeologists recognizes design when he sees it. Some scientists recognize design when they see it, as in the clotting factor and healing process, bacterial flagellum DNA…
So, now we all agree that design can be identified.
In human artifacts sure. Not in what you listed.
You didn't answer the question.quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
You're merely inferring "design" from the pot (as well as that it was from a human) without actually explaining what your criteria for "design" is, and why exactly the pot qualifies but the flagellum, as well as all other examples given in this thread, doesn't. If you don't define "design" then your assertion that "science has not found evidence of design (in the context of creation)" has no basis.
Precisely the point. Design is inferred from the design itself. "Design" is a concept that is INDEPENDENT of the explanation of the source intelligence behind the design. One can not reject "design" simply because they don't find the explanation of the source to be credible. That is known as a genetic fallacy.LIB,MR BEARS said:How does the archeologists know the pot was designed? How does he know it was, as you said, designed by "a human".quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it different?quash said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that when archaeologists dig up a clay pot or discover cave drawings, that they did NOT find evidence of design?quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:MT_Bear said:I'll assume (hope) that you don't actually find this to be any convincing evidence of the presence of God. "God of the gaps" justifications for god are awful gambles. Science has made every "gap" that used to be filled by god shrink enormously over the past few centuries. More importantly - and more to the OP's question - if you find "evidence" of god in any current gap in science, that's not faith.Adriacus Peratuun said:Life.BaylorJacket said:
I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.
I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?
Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
No scientific explanation for living organisms is remotely viable.
OP - I doubt you'll find any convincing proof of god's existence. But if you could, faith wouldn't be a thing, so perhaps that is as it is supposed to be.
The thread title is "What's your best >>>evidence<<< for the existence of God". Nobody asked for proof, and certainly not "convincing proof " (I'm not sure how proof is not convincing) .
You can't give any of us proof that you are a scientist. There may be overwhelming evidence that you are a scientist but, not proof. Unless we are talking mathematics, there is no proof.
A strong piece of evidence in biology is bacterial flagellum. But no, it is not proof.
As science got better, it allowed us to discover bacterial flagellum. The more scientist know, the more evidence is found for a designer.
Scientist don't like to admit that they are not filling gaps but creating mor gaps and providing more evidence.
Science is not finding evidence of design. If it were there would be peer reviewed journals publishing and testing such evidence. There is not.
Videos are not peer reviewed FWIW..
Evidence of design as it is being used in this thread, did you not get the context?
An archaeologist finding a lot has found evidence that a human designed a pot.
Science has not found evidence of a designer/creator, no matter how many gaps you slot your God into.
Your archeologists recognizes design when he sees it. Some scientists recognize design when they see it, as in the clotting factor and healing process, bacterial flagellum DNA…
So, now we all agree that design can be identified.
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Science & philosophy cannot address the question if Hid because He is beyond their competence. I'm no expert on either but I do know that the universe is incredibly vast & complicated, maybe even infinite. I also know that every human cell is vast & incredibly complicated at the microscopic level. None of that happened by chance.
As for Thor or any other pagan mythology, they are silly alternatives to the one true God. They are merely clever stories about deeply flawed humans with magical powers. God is infinite, timeless & omnipotent. He is perfect in every way. We cannot understand Him because He is everything we are not. It would be arrogant & presumptuous for us to try.
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
As for Thor or any other pagan mythology, they are silly alternatives to the one true God. They are merely clever stories about deeply flawed humans with magical powers. God is infinite, timeless & omnipotent. He is perfect in every way. We cannot understand Him because He is everything we are not. It would be arrogant & presumptuous for us to try.
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Is there a heaven for a G?
BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
It's a perfect design: we can only get to God through humility, trusting in Him, & believing in Him. It's not about any of us. It's all about Jesus. He is perfect, no one else ever was.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
BearWithMe said:LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Those things point to good but we need to open our eyes to truly see God. Again it takes humility.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
"He mocks proud mockers but shows favor to the humble and oppressed." Proverbs 3:34
"The fear of the Lord is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor."
Proverbs 15:33
"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up." James 4:10
"Once more the humble will rejoice in the Lord."
Isaiah 29:19a
"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you."
I Peter 5:6
"The fear of the Lord is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor."
Proverbs 15:33
"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up." James 4:10
"Once more the humble will rejoice in the Lord."
Isaiah 29:19a
"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you."
I Peter 5:6
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
What do you think about digging a bit deeper, say for example an annual cycle of monarch butterflies, the design and camouflage of a flounder, DNA, the clotting factor, or bacterial flagellum?BearWithMe said:LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some things that others consider beautiful art I may think looks like spilt paint.
I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
Again though, my question for you is isn't it possible to come to any conclusion/opinion through faith alone? (a simple yes/no would suffice)historian said:BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
It's a perfect design: we can only get to God through humility, trusting in Him, & believing in Him. It's not about any of us. It's all about Jesus. He is perfect, no one else ever was.
I see incredibly intricate and complex structures/patterns when looking deeper.LIB,MR BEARS said:What do you think about digging a bit deeper, say for example an annual cycle of monarch butterflies, the design and camouflage of a flounder, DNA, the clotting factor, or bacterial flagellum?BearWithMe said:LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some things that others consider beautiful art I may think looks like spilt paint.
Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
complex structures and patterns: did they happen by accident? What was the catalyst to start the development of these structures and patters? Is there thought/design behind these?BearWithMe said:I see incredibly intricate and complex structures/patterns when looking deeper.LIB,MR BEARS said:What do you think about digging a bit deeper, say for example an annual cycle of monarch butterflies, the design and camouflage of a flounder, DNA, the clotting factor, or bacterial flagellum?BearWithMe said:LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some things that others consider beautiful art I may think looks like spilt paint.
Just as you have a relationship with your spouse, Christians have a relationship with the triune God.BearWithMe said:Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
Your relationship with your spouse didn't begin with faith but with evidence. The same is true of the Christian's relationship with God.
LIB,MR BEARS said:What do you think about digging a bit deeper, say for example an annual cycle of monarch butterflies, the design and camouflage of a flounder, DNA, the clotting factor, or bacterial flagellum?BearWithMe said:LIB,MR BEARS said:What is your definition of "look at the trees argument"?BearWithMe said:historian said:
The existence of God is self evident. The only evidence I need are two passages from the Bible:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above declared his handiwork."
Psalm 19:1
Romans chapter 1, especially:
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world." Romans 1:19-20
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
Essentially, this argument is that you can find/see God in the beauty/complexity of the Universe. In the sunset on the beach, the wind blowing through the trees, the cry of a newborn, the stars in the sky, etc.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some things that others consider beautiful art I may think looks like spilt paint.
All of the above are more arguments against the absurd idea that it all just happened by accident. Nature is filled with innumerable examples of reality that cannot reasonably be explained without a creator.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
"By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Hebrews 11:3
"The sacred writings… are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." II Timothy 3:15b
"The sacred writings… are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." II Timothy 3:15b
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
We have good understanding of the mechanics and evolution by natural selection of these processes, so I would state that, no, they were not by accident.LIB,MR BEARS said:
complex structures and patterns: did they happen by accident?
Evolution by natural selection. If you are referring to abiogenesis, we have many hypotheses, but obviously at our current technological level we do not know.LIB,MR BEARS said:
What was the catalyst to start the development of these structures and patters?
I don't know. It's not that I'm stating there was not thought/design behind them, but I fail to see any evidence to support this.LIB,MR BEARS said:
Is there thought/design behind these?
Does God physically speak to you, hug you, work a 9-5 to provide for you? To me, if God does indeed exist, he seems to be invisible & silent.LIB,MR BEARS said:Just as you have a relationship with your spouse, Christians have a relationship with the triune God.BearWithMe said:Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
Your relationship with your spouse didn't begin with faith but with evidence. The same is true of the Christian's relationship with God.
As an aside, I am joyful that you find meaning & purpose in your spiritual relationship with God. The point here I am trying to make is this is not a great argument to convince non-theists.
I haven't seen a cop today. Do they not exist?BearWithMe said:Does God physically speak to you, hug you, work a 9-5 to provide for you? To me, if God does indeed exist, he seems to be invisible & silent.LIB,MR BEARS said:Just as you have a relationship with your spouse, Christians have a relationship with the triune God.BearWithMe said:Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
Your relationship with your spouse didn't begin with faith but with evidence. The same is true of the Christian's relationship with God.
As an aside, I am joyful that you find meaning & purpose in your spiritual relationship with God. The point here I am trying to make is this is not a great argument to convince non-theists.
I haven't seen a golf game today. Do those not exist?
I haven't seen a statue today. Do those not exist?
You and I both know that the things I listed above exist. The fact I haven't seen them is only because I've not sought them.
That doesn't mean seeking a Flying Spaghetti Monster will lead me to one if one doesn't exist. However, if I seek what there is evidence of, I am more likely to find it by seeking it.
There is a difference between a skeptic and a cynic.
Thanks! Your joy for me is very obvious in your first paragraph. /sBearWithMe said:Does God physically speak to you, hug you, work a 9-5 to provide for you? To me, if God does indeed exist, he seems to be invisible & silent.LIB,MR BEARS said:Just as you have a relationship with your spouse, Christians have a relationship with the triune God.BearWithMe said:Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
Your relationship with your spouse didn't begin with faith but with evidence. The same is true of the Christian's relationship with God.
As an aside, I am joyful that you find meaning & purpose in your spiritual relationship with God. The point here I am trying to make is this is not a great argument to convince non-theists.
With no disrespect to historian, I agree with you about the Bible not being a proof for God. That is not the intent of the Bible.BearWithMe said:
As someone who is very much open to believing in God, but has not been presented with sufficient evidence (scientific, theological, philosophical, i.e. this term can be used loosely here) that has convinced me nor really even moved the dial much, can you please further explain how the existence of God is self evident beyond just the "look at the trees" argument?
I could state that the belief in Thor is self evident - but no matter how much I state this or point to Ancient Greek texts, I highly doubt this will convince you.
So that I can better understand where you are coming from, where you ever a believe in God? If so, why did you quit believing in Him?
What do you think is the best evidence for God and why does it fail in your opinion?
In my opinion this argument is a logical fallacy where you can essentially plug in anything (including the flying spaghetti monster).LIB,MR BEARS said:I haven't seen a cop today. Do they not exist?BearWithMe said:Does God physically speak to you, hug you, work a 9-5 to provide for you? To me, if God does indeed exist, he seems to be invisible & silent.LIB,MR BEARS said:Just as you have a relationship with your spouse, Christians have a relationship with the triune God.BearWithMe said:Thank you for the response. As a married man myself (although not 37 years, cheers & congratulations to y'all on what I can imagine has been an amazing adventure), I can resonate with your points on experience.LIB,MR BEARS said:I've been married to the same woman for 37 years. I know a great deal about here but, not everything. I think any married person will say the same thing about their spouse.BearWithMe said:historian said:
In the end we can only get to know God through faith. We have to be willing to believe. Anyone who is unwilling to come to God on His terms will remain lost. That's a shame because He made it pretty simple when He sent His Son to bridge the gap.
If faith is the only way to get to know God, then I'd argue this is an extremely poor design. Isn't it possible to come to any conclusion through "faith"?
I didn't get to know her through faith but through experience. My experiences with her, my observations of her, my knowledge of her-all these things have given me reason to have faith in her, to love her. As my faith has grown, my love has grown.
I saw evidence of a good woman. I followed the evidence and fell in love.
It is the same with God. All around, there is evidence of a creator and of design. There is also evidence of right and wrong, love and hate, justice and injustice. Follow the evidence with an open mind and see where it leads.
I fail though to find parallels in this with evidence for God, could you perhaps expand on this some more? What forms of evidence are you referring to?
Your relationship with your spouse didn't begin with faith but with evidence. The same is true of the Christian's relationship with God.
As an aside, I am joyful that you find meaning & purpose in your spiritual relationship with God. The point here I am trying to make is this is not a great argument to convince non-theists.
I haven't seen a golf game today. Do those not exist?
I haven't seen a statue today. Do those not exist?
You and I both know that the things I listed above exist. The fact I haven't seen them is only because I've not sought them.
That doesn't mean seeking a Flying Spaghetti Monster will lead me to one if one doesn't exist. However, if I seek what there is evidence of, I am more likely to find it by seeking it.
There is a difference between a skeptic and a cynic.
I have sought God and have not found anything.