What's your best evidence for the existence of God?

53,105 Views | 1177 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by BusyTarpDuster2017
curtpenn
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BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.


As others have pointed out, there is no need for any of the things you believe have meaning. There is no need to foster shared recognition of ethical principles. There are no ethical principles. Just whatever you make up.
LIB,MR BEARS
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BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
In that case, it would s strictly subjective.

Do you like peas or carrots?
Do you enjoy beating infants or not?
Genital mutilation or not?
Jews deserve dignity or not?
Do you prefer peas or carrots?

Arriving at a conclusion about complex moral questions requires a subjective analysis (yes, subjective), where one considers the available evidence, their values, and the potential consequences of their decision.

If you need a deity to tell you that beating an infant is immoral instead of considering the consequences and values of this action, that is exactly how religions rise and do horrendous things as God commanded. Every religion claims to have "the truth".

Looking at the bible specifically, it's in my opinion one of the worst documents to use as a moral compass. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous incredibly wise teachings and ideas, especially in the New Testament, but there are also many unethical actions done by God or commanded by God.

In biblical times, it was the Christians that pulled the abandoned babies off the trash heaps.

In Asia, female infanticide is still an ongoing occurrence.

I don't think your opinion matches reality
Golem
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curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.


As others have pointed out, there is no need for any of the things you believe have meaning. There is no need to foster shared recognition of ethical principles. There are no ethical principles. Just whatever you make up.


Atheists have ethical principles in some cases. They often call them 'human rights' or the like, and fancy that humanity discovered them with the enlightenment. They delude themselves into believing every great moral good they believe in didn't came from Judeo-Christian religions teachings.

ATL Bear
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BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
There's nothing subjective about it. Without divine relationship and a higher moral purpose there is no good or bad, there is only nature. So of course your purpose is relative to and at the whim of forces within our universe. And according to the science, whatever meaning you've constructed in your mind is simply an evolutionary enhancer or inhibitor to your next version or demise, as we slowly drift toward entropy.
Redbrickbear
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Golem said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.


As others have pointed out, there is no need for any of the things you believe have meaning. There is no need to foster shared recognition of ethical principles. There are no ethical principles. Just whatever you make up.


Atheists have ethical principles in some cases. They often call them 'human rights' or the like, and fancy that humanity discovered them with the enlightenment. They delude themselves into believing every great moral good they believe in came from Judeo-Christian religions teachings.




All their values rest on a Judeo-Christian moral base
Redbrickbear
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

It's NOT rational, according to virtually all reputable and relevant scholars who have studied all this quite more extensively than you. Do I need to quote them again?
It is true that the majority of scholars and historians believe that the evidence strongly supports the historicity of Jesus. However, it is also worth noting that there are credible and respected scholars who have expressed doubts about the historical existence of Jesus.

The fact that there is debate and disagreement among scholars and historians about the historicity of Jesus indicates that this is not a settled issue, and that it is not irrational to question the existence of Jesus based on the available evidence and interpretations.

You keep claiming "credible scholars" and "debate and disagreement" between historians and scholars, even after 3 times I've quoted you what is affirmed by virtuall ALL relevant scholars.

The only "disagreement" between these scholars is the degree of stupidity of the myth argument. One says "foolish", another says "incompetent and unqualified", and another calls them "ignorant buggers".

Here are some additional scholars who hold this position :
- John Dominic Crossan (Ph.D. in NT Studies & professor at multiple prestigious universities)
- George Albert Wells (respected scholar of German and religious studies)
- Alvar Ellegard - (Professor at universities of Stockholm and Uppsala)
- Kara Cooney (Egyptologist and professor of Egyptian Art and Architecture at UCLA)

Does mainstream scholarship agree with their position on the historical Jesus? Nope. Are they respected scholars/historians of religious studies? Yes.


But much like the scholars who doubt the existence of Muhammad (what he did or didn't actual do being another topic)…these academics are in the extreme minority.

Jesus as a real historic figure is almost universally accepted. And among professors if you get to 99% agreement on a given topic that's as close to unanimous as you are going to get.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.
- Without absolute truth or a moral standard, the basis for the meaning of "harm" and whether that is "good" or "bad" is completely arbitrary. Even if a societally shared understanding exists for the meaning of "harm", the basis for it is still completely arbitrary. One society's shared understanding may be that throwing gays off rooftops is a "good" thing therefore it is "ethical". Another society's shared understanding is that it's a "terrible" thing therefore "unethical". If you have the exact same act being both good and bad, both ethical and unethical, then you've got a really big philosophical problem here.

- If you agree that it's a logical fact, then why did say that it isn't?
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

It's NOT rational, according to virtually all reputable and relevant scholars who have studied all this quite more extensively than you. Do I need to quote them again?
It is true that the majority of scholars and historians believe that the evidence strongly supports the historicity of Jesus. However, it is also worth noting that there are credible and respected scholars who have expressed doubts about the historical existence of Jesus.

The fact that there is debate and disagreement among scholars and historians about the historicity of Jesus indicates that this is not a settled issue, and that it is not irrational to question the existence of Jesus based on the available evidence and interpretations.

You keep claiming "credible scholars" and "debate and disagreement" between historians and scholars, even after 3 times I've quoted you what is affirmed by virtuall ALL relevant scholars.

The only "disagreement" between these scholars is the degree of stupidity of the myth argument. One says "foolish", another says "incompetent and unqualified", and another calls them "ignorant buggers".

Here are some additional scholars who hold this position :
- John Dominic Crossan (Ph.D. in NT Studies & professor at multiple prestigious universities)
- George Albert Wells (respected scholar of German and religious studies)
- Alvar Ellegard - (Professor at universities of Stockholm and Uppsala)
- Kara Cooney (Egyptologist and professor of Egyptian Art and Architecture at UCLA)

Does mainstream scholarship agree with their position on the historical Jesus? Nope. Are they respected scholars/historians of religious studies? Yes.
Is this a joke?

Kara Cooney - professor of Egyptology; NOT QUALIFIED
Alvar Ellegard - professor of English and Linguistics; NOT QUALIFIED
George Albert Wells - professor of German; NOT QUALIFIED

The only one on your list that is qualified is John Crossan, New Testament Scholar. Here is a quote of his at the end of one of his books:

"I conclude that Jesus really existed, that we can know the significant sequence of his life."
BaylorJacket
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
In that case, it would s strictly subjective.

Do you like peas or carrots?
Do you enjoy beating infants or not?
Genital mutilation or not?
Jews deserve dignity or not?
Do you prefer peas or carrots?

Arriving at a conclusion about complex moral questions requires a subjective analysis (yes, subjective), where one considers the available evidence, their values, and the potential consequences of their decision.

If you need a deity to tell you that beating an infant is immoral instead of considering the consequences and values of this action, that is exactly how religions rise and do horrendous things as God commanded. Every religion claims to have "the truth".

Looking at the bible specifically, it's in my opinion one of the worst documents to use as a moral compass. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous incredibly wise teachings and ideas, especially in the New Testament, but there are also many unethical actions done by God or commanded by God.

In biblical times, it was the Christians that pulled the abandoned babies off the trash heaps.

In Asia, female infanticide is still an ongoing occurrence.

I don't think your opinion matches reality

This is an over extreme generalization. Christians in the past have done some great work. They've also done many terrible things and continue to do so.

If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you.
BaylorJacket
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Redbrickbear said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

It's NOT rational, according to virtually all reputable and relevant scholars who have studied all this quite more extensively than you. Do I need to quote them again?
It is true that the majority of scholars and historians believe that the evidence strongly supports the historicity of Jesus. However, it is also worth noting that there are credible and respected scholars who have expressed doubts about the historical existence of Jesus.

The fact that there is debate and disagreement among scholars and historians about the historicity of Jesus indicates that this is not a settled issue, and that it is not irrational to question the existence of Jesus based on the available evidence and interpretations.

You keep claiming "credible scholars" and "debate and disagreement" between historians and scholars, even after 3 times I've quoted you what is affirmed by virtuall ALL relevant scholars.

The only "disagreement" between these scholars is the degree of stupidity of the myth argument. One says "foolish", another says "incompetent and unqualified", and another calls them "ignorant buggers".

Here are some additional scholars who hold this position :
- John Dominic Crossan (Ph.D. in NT Studies & professor at multiple prestigious universities)
- George Albert Wells (respected scholar of German and religious studies)
- Alvar Ellegard - (Professor at universities of Stockholm and Uppsala)
- Kara Cooney (Egyptologist and professor of Egyptian Art and Architecture at UCLA)

Does mainstream scholarship agree with their position on the historical Jesus? Nope. Are they respected scholars/historians of religious studies? Yes.


But much like the scholars who doubt the existence of Muhammad (what he did or didn't actual do being another topic)…these academics are in the extreme minority.

Jesus as a real historic figure is almost universally accepted. And among professors if you get to 99% agreement on a given topic that's as close to unanimous as you are going to get.

Fair point - perhaps one day I'll put together an analysis of all qualified scholars on the topic. As a rough estimate I'd probably say around 90-95% have zero doubt that Jesus existed, which isn't far off from your guess.
BaylorJacket
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.
- Without absolute truth or a moral standard, the basis for the meaning of "harm" and whether that is "good" or "bad" is completely arbitrary. Even if a societally shared understanding exists for the meaning of "harm", the basis for it is still completely arbitrary. One society's shared understanding may be that throwing gays off rooftops is a "good" thing therefore it is "ethical". Another society's shared understanding is that it's a "terrible" thing therefore "unethical". If you have the exact same act being both good and bad, both ethical and unethical, then you've got a really big philosophical problem here.

- If you agree that it's a logical fact, then why did say that it isn't?

While it is certainly true that different societies and individuals may have different moral codes and understandings of harm, this does not mean that all moral judgments are equally valid or that there is no objective basis for determining what is ethical or unethical. Rather, it suggests that morality is complex and multifaceted, and that different societies and individuals may have different perspectives on what constitutes ethical behavior.

Please re-read what I noted as not being a logical fact: "It is necessary to appeal to an absolute truth…" This is a subjective claim. Your rephrased statement is a proper logical fact.
BaylorJacket
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

It's NOT rational, according to virtually all reputable and relevant scholars who have studied all this quite more extensively than you. Do I need to quote them again?
It is true that the majority of scholars and historians believe that the evidence strongly supports the historicity of Jesus. However, it is also worth noting that there are credible and respected scholars who have expressed doubts about the historical existence of Jesus.

The fact that there is debate and disagreement among scholars and historians about the historicity of Jesus indicates that this is not a settled issue, and that it is not irrational to question the existence of Jesus based on the available evidence and interpretations.

You keep claiming "credible scholars" and "debate and disagreement" between historians and scholars, even after 3 times I've quoted you what is affirmed by virtuall ALL relevant scholars.

The only "disagreement" between these scholars is the degree of stupidity of the myth argument. One says "foolish", another says "incompetent and unqualified", and another calls them "ignorant buggers".

Here are some additional scholars who hold this position :
- John Dominic Crossan (Ph.D. in NT Studies & professor at multiple prestigious universities)
- George Albert Wells (respected scholar of German and religious studies)
- Alvar Ellegard - (Professor at universities of Stockholm and Uppsala)
- Kara Cooney (Egyptologist and professor of Egyptian Art and Architecture at UCLA)

Does mainstream scholarship agree with their position on the historical Jesus? Nope. Are they respected scholars/historians of religious studies? Yes.
Is this a joke?

Kara Cooney - professor of Egyptology; NOT QUALIFIED
Alvar Ellegard - professor of English and Linguistics; NOT QUALIFIED
George Albert Wells - professor of German; NOT QUALIFIED

The only one on your list that is qualified is John Crossan, New Testament Scholar. Here is a quote of his at the end of one of his books:

"I conclude that Jesus really existed, that we can know the significant sequence of his life."

I disagree that the others are not qualified. The study of the historical Jesus involves a multidisciplinary approach that draws upon a range of sources, including the New Testament, other early Christian texts, Jewish and Greco-Roman literature, and archaeological evidence.

I added Dr. Crossan as from listening to some of his lectures, he concluded that the evidence for the Historical Jesus is inconclusive, but believed that a literal Jesus likely existed. I haven't read his book, so you got me on that one.
LIB,MR BEARS
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BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
In that case, it would s strictly subjective.

Do you like peas or carrots?
Do you enjoy beating infants or not?
Genital mutilation or not?
Jews deserve dignity or not?
Do you prefer peas or carrots?

Arriving at a conclusion about complex moral questions requires a subjective analysis (yes, subjective), where one considers the available evidence, their values, and the potential consequences of their decision.

If you need a deity to tell you that beating an infant is immoral instead of considering the consequences and values of this action, that is exactly how religions rise and do horrendous things as God commanded. Every religion claims to have "the truth".

Looking at the bible specifically, it's in my opinion one of the worst documents to use as a moral compass. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous incredibly wise teachings and ideas, especially in the New Testament, but there are also many unethical actions done by God or commanded by God.

In biblical times, it was the Christians that pulled the abandoned babies off the trash heaps.

In Asia, female infanticide is still an ongoing occurrence.

I don't think your opinion matches reality

This is an over extreme generalization. Christians in the past have done some great work. They've also done many terrible things and continue to do so.

If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you.

I can call myself a baseball player or golfer. If someone saw me do either, they'd disagree or at the very least say I'm not a good golfer or ball player. The same is true of people that call themselves Christians.
FLBear5630
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
In that case, it would s strictly subjective.

Do you like peas or carrots?
Do you enjoy beating infants or not?
Genital mutilation or not?
Jews deserve dignity or not?
Do you prefer peas or carrots?

Arriving at a conclusion about complex moral questions requires a subjective analysis (yes, subjective), where one considers the available evidence, their values, and the potential consequences of their decision.

If you need a deity to tell you that beating an infant is immoral instead of considering the consequences and values of this action, that is exactly how religions rise and do horrendous things as God commanded. Every religion claims to have "the truth".

Looking at the bible specifically, it's in my opinion one of the worst documents to use as a moral compass. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous incredibly wise teachings and ideas, especially in the New Testament, but there are also many unethical actions done by God or commanded by God.

In biblical times, it was the Christians that pulled the abandoned babies off the trash heaps.

In Asia, female infanticide is still an ongoing occurrence.

I don't think your opinion matches reality

This is an over extreme generalization. Christians in the past have done some great work. They've also done many terrible things and continue to do so.

If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you.

I can call myself a baseball player or golfer. If someone saw me do either, they'd disagree or at the very least say I'm not a good golfer or ball player. The same is true of people that call themselves Christians.
So, what are you using to define a "good Christian"? Is he TV Evangelist taking in millions and living in a mansion a "good Christian"? He says all the right things? Is the Pastor and Church Elders that don't try to help those that have addictions, fallen away or had babies in wedlock "good Christians"? They never miss a service and tithe the proper amount. Are they "good"? Is the Priest or Pastor working on the docks and celebrates mass in 10 minutes while working with the poor and has a congregation of drug addicts, prostitutes and degenerates? Not a "good" clergymen because he doesn't ostracize them and call them swine?

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, seems that unless they are blatantly breaking one of the 10 commandments it is pretty tough to know...

D. C. Bear
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.
- Without absolute truth or a moral standard, the basis for the meaning of "harm" and whether that is "good" or "bad" is completely arbitrary. Even if a societally shared understanding exists for the meaning of "harm", the basis for it is still completely arbitrary. One society's shared understanding may be that throwing gays off rooftops is a "good" thing therefore it is "ethical". Another society's shared understanding is that it's a "terrible" thing therefore "unethical". If you have the exact same act being both good and bad, both ethical and unethical, then you've got a really big philosophical problem here.

- If you agree that it's a logical fact, then why did say that it isn't?

While it is certainly true that different societies and individuals may have different moral codes and understandings of harm, this does not mean that all moral judgments are equally valid or that there is no objective basis for determining what is ethical or unethical. Rather, it suggests that morality is complex and multifaceted, and that different societies and individuals may have different perspectives on what constitutes ethical behavior.

Please re-read what I noted as not being a logical fact: "It is necessary to appeal to an absolute truth…" This is a subjective claim. Your rephrased statement is a proper logical fact.


"It is necessary to appeal to an absolute truth" is a claim that you have logically forced to be true, and not "subjective," if you are correct in your claim that "this does not mean that all moral judgments are equally valid" because unless there is absolute truth then no moral judgment can be seen as less valid than another.
LIB,MR BEARS
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RMF5630 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

ATL Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

curtpenn said:

BaylorJacket said:

Doc Holliday said:

BaylorJacket said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.
Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.


Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.
Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.


Why do you believe your life has purpose?

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.


For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion
If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?


The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.
That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.
When you disengage from the divine your value and purpose is not relative to your fellow humans or living creatures, or even societal structure or planet. It is relative to the vastness of the universe and the physical forces within it. And under that comparative there is literally no value to humanity. We are simply an elevated ant hill organizing and reorganizing in pursuit of comfort, dominance, and endorphic drive.

Put simply, when you have no relationship to or with the divine, your value or purpose becomes infinitesimally tiny. To believe otherwise is simply human arrogance.

The notion that human worth and purpose are meaningless without a divine relationship is subjective, as it presupposes that human value can only be assessed in the context of the vast universe. Nonetheless, other individuals, cultures, and societies have diverse perspectives on what gives meaning and value to their lives. Some find significance in everyday moments and interactions.
In that case, it would s strictly subjective.

Do you like peas or carrots?
Do you enjoy beating infants or not?
Genital mutilation or not?
Jews deserve dignity or not?
Do you prefer peas or carrots?

Arriving at a conclusion about complex moral questions requires a subjective analysis (yes, subjective), where one considers the available evidence, their values, and the potential consequences of their decision.

If you need a deity to tell you that beating an infant is immoral instead of considering the consequences and values of this action, that is exactly how religions rise and do horrendous things as God commanded. Every religion claims to have "the truth".

Looking at the bible specifically, it's in my opinion one of the worst documents to use as a moral compass. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous incredibly wise teachings and ideas, especially in the New Testament, but there are also many unethical actions done by God or commanded by God.

In biblical times, it was the Christians that pulled the abandoned babies off the trash heaps.

In Asia, female infanticide is still an ongoing occurrence.

I don't think your opinion matches reality

This is an over extreme generalization. Christians in the past have done some great work. They've also done many terrible things and continue to do so.

If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you.

I can call myself a baseball player or golfer. If someone saw me do either, they'd disagree or at the very least say I'm not a good golfer or ball player. The same is true of people that call themselves Christians.
So, what are you using to define a "good Christian"? Is he TV Evangelist taking in millions and living in a mansion a "good Christian"? He says all the right things? Is the Pastor and Church Elders that don't try to help those that have addictions, fallen away or had babies in wedlock "good Christians"? They never miss a service and tithe the proper amount. Are they "good"? Is the Priest or Pastor working on the docks and celebrates mass in 10 minutes while working with the poor and has a congregation of drug addicts, prostitutes and degenerates? Not a "good" clergymen because he doesn't ostracize them and call them swine?

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, seems that unless they are blatantly breaking one of the 10 commandments it is pretty tough to know...


your last paragraph hit on part of my answer: "You will know them by their fruits." This tells a big part of the story but not all.

For years, you could look at Ravi Zacharias and believe that he was a wonderful Christian man, spreading God's word and challenging doubters with well thought out apologetics. After his death it was discovered he was living a double life. (In hindsight there were clues)


"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.""

We can't see a person's heart but their fruit. There are sheep in wolf's clothing and scripture tells us that some will be fooled. If God allows, I'm sure we will be surprised by some who are in heaven and some who aren't.

ps…The thief on the cross says hi.

ps ii…AMAZING grace because it was too hard to put unfathomable or incomprehensible to music



Oldbear83
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BaylorJacket: "If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you."

There are problems with that point. I'd say there are people who actually live their faith, while others put up a face for their neighbors and peers that is expected, while in private they are very different.

For example, one thing which has always bothered me is that Scripture makes clear that there is nothing wrong with being wealthy, so long as you have earned that money. But Jesus and others warned the rich of severe punishment. The key is avoiding love of money.

What I take from that, is that it's why we do a thing that makes it good or bad, and accordingly whether we are true or false to our faith.

There will always be cynics who claim this ia just a variant of the True Scotsman argument, but I think it is a valid and consistent way to look at anyone's claims to moral identity.

With the lessons of the mote in the eye and the Good Samaritan to guide us.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
FLBear5630
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LIB,MR BEARS said:



your last paragraph hit on part of my answer: "You will know them by their fruits." This tells a big part of the story but not all.

For years, you could look at Ravi Zacharias and believe that he was a wonderful Christian man, spreading God's word and challenging doubters with well thought out apologetics. After his death it was discovered he was living a double life. (In hindsight there were clues)


"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.""

We can't see a person's heart but their fruit. There are sheep in wolf's clothing and scripture tells us that some will be fooled. If God allows, I'm sure we will be surprised by some who are in heaven and some who aren't.

ps…The thief on the cross says hi.

ps ii…AMAZING grace because it was to hard to put unfathomable or incomprehensible to music




I agree. I have a suspicion, if the afterlife is as portrayed in a movie, that there will be many head scratchers on both side...
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

Systemic oppression and violence of other groups were "ethical" by their standards. Intersubjective agreement didn't solve anything. You are still mired in your problem.
This is not true across the board historically, but for the sake of argument we can assume every previous society believed systemic oppression and violence to be ethical if committed.

When we view the historical actions of systemic oppression and violence from our present perspective, we can recognize the harm they have caused to other groups. By engaging in intersubjective agreement, we as a society can come to a collective understanding that practices such as slavery are immoral and should never be repeated. This scenario is essentially what intersubjective agreement is: fostering shared recognition of ethical principles and promoting a commitment to upholding them.

Quote:

It is a logical fact, that without appealing to absolute truth, any argument regarding "ethics" and "morals" are based on relative truth.
Correct, that's a logical fact.
- Without absolute truth or a moral standard, the basis for the meaning of "harm" and whether that is "good" or "bad" is completely arbitrary. Even if a societally shared understanding exists for the meaning of "harm", the basis for it is still completely arbitrary. One society's shared understanding may be that throwing gays off rooftops is a "good" thing therefore it is "ethical". Another society's shared understanding is that it's a "terrible" thing therefore "unethical". If you have the exact same act being both good and bad, both ethical and unethical, then you've got a really big philosophical problem here.

- If you agree that it's a logical fact, then why did say that it isn't?

While it is certainly true that different societies and individuals may have different moral codes and understandings of harm, this does not mean that all moral judgments are equally valid or that there is no objective basis for determining what is ethical or unethical. Rather, it suggests that morality is complex and multifaceted, and that different societies and individuals may have different perspectives on what constitutes ethical behavior.

Please re-read what I noted as not being a logical fact: "It is necessary to appeal to an absolute truth…" This is a subjective claim. Your rephrased statement is a proper logical fact.
"...this does not mean that all moral judgments are equally valid or that there is no objective basis for determining what is ethical or unethical."

- On what basis do you deem other moral judgements not equal? What objective basis? And why is your objective basis more valid than another's? On what basis?

- Please reread and see that my rephrased statement is the same as the original. It is necessary to appeal to absolute truth for your claims of "ethics" and "morals" to NOT be based on relative truth. A logical fact.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

It's NOT rational, according to virtually all reputable and relevant scholars who have studied all this quite more extensively than you. Do I need to quote them again?
It is true that the majority of scholars and historians believe that the evidence strongly supports the historicity of Jesus. However, it is also worth noting that there are credible and respected scholars who have expressed doubts about the historical existence of Jesus.

The fact that there is debate and disagreement among scholars and historians about the historicity of Jesus indicates that this is not a settled issue, and that it is not irrational to question the existence of Jesus based on the available evidence and interpretations.

You keep claiming "credible scholars" and "debate and disagreement" between historians and scholars, even after 3 times I've quoted you what is affirmed by virtuall ALL relevant scholars.

The only "disagreement" between these scholars is the degree of stupidity of the myth argument. One says "foolish", another says "incompetent and unqualified", and another calls them "ignorant buggers".

Here are some additional scholars who hold this position :
- John Dominic Crossan (Ph.D. in NT Studies & professor at multiple prestigious universities)
- George Albert Wells (respected scholar of German and religious studies)
- Alvar Ellegard - (Professor at universities of Stockholm and Uppsala)
- Kara Cooney (Egyptologist and professor of Egyptian Art and Architecture at UCLA)

Does mainstream scholarship agree with their position on the historical Jesus? Nope. Are they respected scholars/historians of religious studies? Yes.
Is this a joke?

Kara Cooney - professor of Egyptology; NOT QUALIFIED
Alvar Ellegard - professor of English and Linguistics; NOT QUALIFIED
George Albert Wells - professor of German; NOT QUALIFIED

The only one on your list that is qualified is John Crossan, New Testament Scholar. Here is a quote of his at the end of one of his books:

"I conclude that Jesus really existed, that we can know the significant sequence of his life."

I disagree that the others are not qualified. The study of the historical Jesus involves a multidisciplinary approach that draws upon a range of sources, including the New Testament, other early Christian texts, Jewish and Greco-Roman literature, and archaeological evidence.

I added Dr. Crossan as from listening to some of his lectures, he concluded that the evidence for the Historical Jesus is inconclusive, but believed that a literal Jesus likely existed. I haven't read his book, so you got me on that one.
The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
BaylorJacket
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Quote:

On what basis do you deem other moral judgements not equal? What objective basis? And why is your objective basis more valid than another's? On what basis?
Perhaps our difference in opinion lies in how we view the nature of humanity. From your perspective (assuming), humans are inherently sinful and prone to corruption, leading them to rebel against God and become separated from Him. On the other hand, I believe that humans are primarily good-natured and can achieve great things with the right support, regardless of their personal struggles or belief in a higher power.

As social beings, humans have evolved to value morals that transcend individual, cultural, and historical contexts such as love and empathy, and through inter-subjectivity, we can objectively determine the best course of action in any given situation.

Quote:

Please reread and see that my rephrased statement is the same as the original. It is necessary to appeal to absolute truth for your claims of "ethics" and "morals" to NOT be based on relative truth. A logical fact.
It is a logical fact that if there is no absolute truth, then all truth is relative. Even if truth is relative, the process of inter-subjectivity can still provide a framework for objective moral decision-making based on shared values and a commitment to fairness and respect for others.

This is absolutely my opinion though, and just about any philosopher will give you a different answer.
BaylorJacket
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
From what I have gathered in previous conversations, you do not fully believe in the theory of Macro-evolution (without inserting magical explosions). Out of all the scientific theories, quite possibly the one with the most evidence. Evidence that has been extensively tested and confirmed by multiple independent sources.

Despite this, you continue to criticize me for holding a position shared by the minority of Ancient History scholars. While I believe it is most likely that Jesus existed, I am not fully convinced by a few shreds of literary copied evidence. You continuing to quote scholarly opinion is unproductive. I respect and admire many of your quoted scholars, but at the end of the day - I have not seen any evidence brought forth convinces me. Their opinion absolutely influences mine, but only evidence can convince me.

I have been greatly impressed by the responses I have received on this forum post. I've discovered some unique perspectives on God which in turn has led me down some research trails that challenged and grown me spiritually. The kindness and empathy shown by others here is a reflection of their true belief in Christ - which I respect.

However, your negativity and tendency to belittle views that differ from your own have only reinforced my conviction that leaving evangelical Christianity was the right decision. Irrespective of the topic at hand, be it Jesus, morality, evolution, or any other matter, you consistently denigrate viewpoints that differ from your own and exhibit a sense of superiority.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

Quote:

On what basis do you deem other moral judgements not equal? What objective basis? And why is your objective basis more valid than another's? On what basis?
Perhaps our difference in opinion lies in how we view the nature of humanity. From your perspective (assuming), humans are inherently sinful and prone to corruption, leading them to rebel against God and become separated from Him. On the other hand, I believe that humans are primarily good-natured and can achieve great things with the right support, regardless of their personal struggles or belief in a higher power.

As social beings, humans have evolved to value morals that transcend individual, cultural, and historical contexts such as love and empathy, and through inter-subjectivity, we can objectively determine the best course of action in any given situation.

Quote:

Please reread and see that my rephrased statement is the same as the original. It is necessary to appeal to absolute truth for your claims of "ethics" and "morals" to NOT be based on relative truth. A logical fact.
It is a logical fact that if there is no absolute truth, then all truth is relative. Even if truth is relative, the process of inter-subjectivity can still provide a framework for objective moral decision-making based on shared values and a commitment to fairness and respect for others.

This is absolutely my opinion though, and just about any philosopher will give you a different answer.

- you didn't answer the question. You are missing the point.

- So I assume you concede that I was correct that it was a logical fact, and that you were incorrect in saying it was "subjective". Yes, the converse of my statement is also a logical fact. The point is the same, however. Without a moral standard based on absolute truth, all truth is relative, and whatever framework you have from intersubjective agreement doesn't make it any less relative. There would still be no basis on which to say that another's framwork that says "fairness" and "respect for others" are NOT "good" things is any less valid. You know this, that's why you didn't answer the first question.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
From what I have gathered in previous conversations, you do not fully believe in the theory of Macro-evolution (without inserting magical explosions). Out of all the scientific theories, quite possibly the one with the most evidence. Evidence that has been extensively tested and confirmed by multiple independent sources.

Despite this, you continue to criticize me for holding a position shared by the minority of Ancient History scholars. While I believe it is most likely that Jesus existed, I am not fully convinced by a few shreds of literary copied evidence. You continuing to quote scholarly opinion is unproductive. I respect and admire many of your quoted scholars, but at the end of the day - I have not seen any evidence brought forth convinces me. Their opinion absolutely influences mine, but only evidence can convince me.

I have been greatly impressed by the responses I have received on this forum post. I've discovered some unique perspectives on God which in turn has led me down some research trails that challenged and grown me spiritually. The kindness and empathy shown by others here is a reflection of their true belief in Christ - which I respect.

However, your negativity and tendency to belittle views that differ from your own have only reinforced my conviction that leaving evangelical Christianity was the right decision. Irrespective of the topic at hand, be it Jesus, morality, evolution, or any other matter, you consistently denigrate viewpoints that differ from your own and exhibit a sense of superiority.
I don't denigrate viewpoints that differ from my own. I denigrate viewpoints that are DISHONEST, baseless, and ridiculously biased towards a certain agenda.

If you are so averse to my "negativity", and that convinces you to leave Christianity, why aren't you likewise averse to the scholars who share that same "negativity" towards your view ("foolish"), and shouldn't that convince you, then, in the same manner to leave the belief that THEY have, which is that Jesus is NOT divine? You are inconsistent here.

By the way, you didn't produce views "shared by a minority of Ancient History Scholars". You shared the minority view from language Professors and an ancient history scholar from Egypt, not ancient Palestine. She has no more authority to make claims about the historicity of Jesus, than Bart Ehrman does about the historicity of Tutankhamun. Yet another one of your intellectually dishonest comments. And the ONE scholar you mentioned who IS qualified, claimed Jesus existed!

Let's be clear: you are clearly against the spirit of God because you don't believe, so it doesn't bother me, not in the least, that you are averse to me. In fact, that's exactly what Jesus said would happen to his believers who proclaim the truth. Actually, I think that's what you REALLY are averse to - the truth about Jesus. You are desperate to invalidate him, because you don't want to believe.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
From what I have gathered in previous conversations, you do not fully believe in the theory of Macro-evolution (without inserting magical explosions). Out of all the scientific theories, quite possibly the one with the most evidence. Evidence that has been extensively tested and confirmed by multiple independent sources.

What evidence shows there was no intelligent design involved? You are citing evidence that confirms what, exactly?
ATL Bear
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Always fascinated with the blind faith to scientific theory from so many who couldn't even describe or interpret the math of theoretical physics or grasp the phylogenetic processes necessary for speciation. Not to mention the lack of actual proof. Science of the gaps over God of the gaps for some I guess.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/?sh=381d90ba2fb1

Scientific Proof Is A Myth

You've heard of our greatest scientific theories: the theory of evolution, the Big Bang theory, the theory of gravity. You've also heard of the concept of a proof, and the claims that certain pieces of evidence prove the validities of these theories. Fossils, genetic inheritance, and DNA prove the theory of evolution. The Hubble expansion of the Universe, the evolution of stars, galaxies, and heavy elements, and the existence of the cosmic microwave background prove the Big Bang theory. And falling objects, GPS clocks, planetary motion, and the deflection of starlight prove the theory of gravity.

Except that's a complete lie. While they provide very strong evidence for those theories, they aren't proof. In fact, when it comes to science, proving anything is an impossibility.


In theory, the differing properties of Jupiter's great red spot, distinct from the rest of the atmosphere, could be related to thermal differences coming from below. Even if the evidence comes in to support this idea, it won't constitute scientific proof.

Reality is a complicated place. All we have to guide us, from an empirical point of view, are the quantities we can measure and observe. Even at that, those quantities are only as good as the tools and equipment we use to make those observations and measurements. Distances and sizes are only as good as the measuring sticks you have access to; brightness measurements are only as good as your ability to count and quantify photons; even time itself is only known as well as the clock you have to measure its passage. No matter how good our measurements and observations are, there's a limit to how good they are.

We also can't observe or measure everything. Even if the Universe weren't subject to the fundamental quantum rules that govern it, along with all its inherent uncertainty, it wouldn't be possible to measure every state of every particle under every condition all the time. At some point, we have to extrapolate. This is incredibly powerful and incredibly useful, but it's also incredibly limiting.

The curvature of space means that clocks that are deeper into a gravitational well and hence, in more severely curved space run at a different rate than ones in a shallower, less-curved portion of space. While our predictions for GPS satellites work extraordinarily well, even this cannot 'prove' that General Relativity is correct.

In order to come up with a model capable of predicting what will happen under a variety of conditions, we need to understand a few things.

What we're capable of measuring, and to what precision.

What's been measured thus far, under specific initial conditions.

What laws hold for these phenomena, i.e., what observed relationships exist between specific quantities.

And what the limits are for the things we presently know.
If you understand these things, you have the right ingredients to formulate a scientific theory: a framework for explaining what we already know happens as well as predicting what will happen under new, untested circumstances.

If you look farther and farther away, you also look farther and farther into the past. The farthest we can see back in time is 13.8 billion years: our estimate for the age of the Universe. It's the extrapolation back to the earliest times that led to the idea of the Big Bang. While everything we observe is consistent with the Big Bang framework, it's not something that can ever be proven.

Our best theories, like the aforementioned theory of evolution, the Big Bang theory, and Einstein's General Relativity, cover all of these bases. They have an underlying quantitative framework, enabling us to predict what will happen under a variety of situations, and to then go out and test those predictions empirically. So far, these theories have demonstrated themselves to be eminently valid. Where their predictions can be described by mathematical expressions, we can tell not only what should happen, but by how much. For these theories in particular, among many others, measurements and observations that have been performed to test these theories have been supremely successful.

But as validating as that is and as powerful as it is to falsify alternatives it's completely impossible to prove anything in science.

In science, even mathematical proofs are less than 100% certain, as it's not 100% certain that the mathematical rules apply to your physical system.

Proofs are mathematical entities: you start with a set of postulates, things that you begin with as givens. From those postulates, you take simple, straightforward steps, obeying the laws and rules of the system that you began with. As you progress, you can build up more and more complex rules, tease out intricate behavior, and axiomatically prove what will and won't happen.

In science, at its best, the process is very similar, but with a caveat: you never know when your postulates, rules, or logical steps will suddenly cease to describe the Universe. You never know when your assumptions will suddenly become invalid. And you never know whether the rules you successfully applied for situations A, B, and C will successfully apply for situation D.

It isn't simply that galaxies are moving away from us that causes a redshift, but rather that the space between ourselves and the galaxy redshifts the light on its journey from that distant point to our eyes. Of course, this is predicated on an assumption whose validity we have no way of testing. If it's wrong, so may be all the conclusions we draw from this.

It's a leap of faith to assume that it will, and while these are often good leaps of faith, you cannot prove that these leaps are always valid. If the laws of nature change over time, or behave differently under different conditions, or in different directions or locations, or aren't applicable to the system you're dealing with, your predictions will be wrong. And that's why everything we do in science, no matter how well it gets tested, is always preliminary.

The Standard Model Lagrangian is a single equation encapsulating the particles and interactions of the Standard Model. It has five independent parts: the gluons (1), the weak bosons (2), how matter interacts with the weak force and the Higgs field (3), the ghost particles that subtract the Higgs-field redundancies (4), and the Fadeev-Popov ghosts, which affect the weak interaction redundancies (5). Neutrino masses are not included. Also, this is only what we know so far; it may not be the full Lagrangian describing 3 of the 4 fundamental forces.

Even in theoretical physics, the most mathematical of all the sciences, our "proofs" aren't on entirely solid ground. If the assumptions we make about the underlying physical theory (or its mathematical structure) no longer apply if we step outside the theory's range of validity we'll "prove" something that turns out not to be true. If someone tells you a scientific theory has been proven, you should ask what they mean by that. Normally, they mean "they've convinced themselves that this thing is true," or they have overwhelming evidence that a specific idea is valid over a specific range. But nothing in science can ever truly be proven. It's always subject to revision.

In the standard model, the neutron's electric dipole moment is predicted to be a factor of ten billion larger than our observational limits show. The only explanation is that somehow, something beyond the Standard Model is protecting this CP symmetry. We can demonstrate a lot of things in science, but proving that CP is conserved in the strong interactions can never be done.

This doesn't mean it's impossible to know anything at all. To the contrary, in many ways, scientific knowledge is the most "real" knowledge that we can possibly gain about the world. But in science, nothing is ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As Einstein himself once said:

The scientific theorist is not to be envied. For Nature, or more precisely experiment, is an inexorable and not very friendly judge of his work. It never says "Yes" to a theory. In the most favorable cases it says "Maybe," and in the great majority of cases simply "No." If an experiment agrees with a theory it means for the latter "Maybe," and if it does not agree it means "No." Probably every theory will someday experience its "No"most theories, soon after conception.

The idea of unification holds that all three of the Standard Model forces, and perhaps even gravity at higher energies, are unified together in a single framework. This idea is powerful, has led to a great deal of research, but is a completely unproven conjecture. Nevertheless, many physicists are convinced this is an important approach to understanding nature.

So don't try to prove things; try to convince yourself. And be your own harshest critic and your own greatest skeptic. Every scientific theory will someday fail, and when it does, that will herald a new era of scientific inquiry and discovery. And of all the scientific theories we've ever come up with, the best ones succeed for the longest amounts of time and over the greatest ranges possible. In some sense, it's better than a proof: it's the most correct description of the physical world humanity has ever imagined.
Oldbear83
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Scientist: "scientific knowledge is the most "real" knowledge that we can possibly gain about the world."

Theologian: 'Spiritual truth is the most real truth we can know'

Spinal Tap: 'Our speakers go to 11'
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
BaylorJacket
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ATL Bear said:

So don't try to prove things; try to convince yourself. And be your own harshest critic and your own greatest skeptic. Every scientific theory will someday fail, and when it does, that will herald a new era of scientific inquiry and discovery. And of all the scientific theories we've ever come up with, the best ones succeed for the longest amounts of time and over the greatest ranges possible. In some sense, it's better than a proof: it's the most correct description of the physical world humanity has ever imagined.

Great quote there - thank you for posting!

I fully agree with this. Science is not about proving anything, but developing and testing hypotheses that are repeatable. The scientific theories we have today represent our current best understanding of the materialistic world - but certainly these will look different as new discoveries and evidence surfaces.
BaylorJacket
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BaylorJacket
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Oldbear83 said:

BaylorJacket: "If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you."

There are problems with that point. I'd say there are people who actually live their faith, while others put up a face for their neighbors and peers that is expected, while in private they are very different.

For example, one thing which has always bothered me is that Scripture makes clear that there is nothing wrong with being wealthy, so long as you have earned that money. But Jesus and others warned the rich of severe punishment. The key is avoiding love of money.

What I take from that, is that it's why we do a thing that makes it good or bad, and accordingly whether we are true or false to our faith.

There will always be cynics who claim this ia just a variant of the True Scotsman argument, but I think it is a valid and consistent way to look at anyone's claims to moral identity.

With the lessons of the mote in the eye and the Good Samaritan to guide us.

I think that's certainly a fair point - my issue following that logic though is then it requires us to define what the correct interpretation of the core source is (in this case Christian scripture). We have thousands of denominations that hold at times significantly different theological and moral ideas, who each believe their interpretation is the correct one. How can we define who is correct?

I fully agree though that intent is an important factor.
D. C. Bear
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BaylorJacket said:

Oldbear83 said:

BaylorJacket: "If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you."

There are problems with that point. I'd say there are people who actually live their faith, while others put up a face for their neighbors and peers that is expected, while in private they are very different.

For example, one thing which has always bothered me is that Scripture makes clear that there is nothing wrong with being wealthy, so long as you have earned that money. But Jesus and others warned the rich of severe punishment. The key is avoiding love of money.

What I take from that, is that it's why we do a thing that makes it good or bad, and accordingly whether we are true or false to our faith.

There will always be cynics who claim this ia just a variant of the True Scotsman argument, but I think it is a valid and consistent way to look at anyone's claims to moral identity.

With the lessons of the mote in the eye and the Good Samaritan to guide us.

I think that's certainly a fair point - my issue following that logic though is then it requires us to define what the correct interpretation of the core source is (in this case Christian scripture). We have thousands of denominations that hold at times significantly different theological and moral ideas, who each believe their interpretation is the correct one. How can we define who is correct?

I fully agree though that intent is an important factor.


God is correct.
FLBear5630
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
From what I have gathered in previous conversations, you do not fully believe in the theory of Macro-evolution (without inserting magical explosions). Out of all the scientific theories, quite possibly the one with the most evidence. Evidence that has been extensively tested and confirmed by multiple independent sources.

What evidence shows there was no intelligent design involved? You are citing evidence that confirms what, exactly?
There can be no evidence for Intelligent Design! ID is a catch-all for what we can't explain, yet. For Intelligent Design to succeed, science has to fail. You cannot prove ID. So asking for proof it does not exist is a ridiculous request. I am sure there is a stripper with a heart of gold paying her way through Medical School too somewhere in the Universe!

Intelligent design has done nothing to advance science. It has pitted science against religion. It has done nothing to advance understanding. It is a bone being thrown to the Creationist. Sorry, even if there is an ID there is no way to prove it. Unless you have God's Cook Book or notes...



Ok, that may be a cheapshot... Great movie.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

BaylorJacket said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

The historical Jesus is NOT their field of study and therefore they have no authority, it's as simple as that, and for you to assert otherwise is evidence of how desperate you've become. The fact that you had to appeal to FOREIGN LANGUAGE professors to bolster your claim, in the face of virtually ALL reputable and relevant scholars in the field of study essentially declaring these claims as "foolish" and "completely spurious", shows exactly how incredibly weak and baseless your argument is. Not just weak, but as those scholars have said, it's stupid.

You are flailing at this point, and how you're not embarassed by it is beyond me. It's time to just concede.
From what I have gathered in previous conversations, you do not fully believe in the theory of Macro-evolution (without inserting magical explosions). Out of all the scientific theories, quite possibly the one with the most evidence. Evidence that has been extensively tested and confirmed by multiple independent sources.

What evidence shows there was no intelligent design involved? You are citing evidence that confirms what, exactly?
There can be no evidence for Intelligent Design! ID is a catch-all for what we can't explain, yet. For Intelligent Design to succeed, science has to fail. You cannot prove ID. So asking for proof it does not exist is a ridiculous request. I am sure there is a stripper with a heart of gold paying her way through Medical School too somewhere in the Universe!

Intelligent design has done nothing to advance science. It has pitted science against religion. It has done nothing to advance understanding. It is a bone being thrown to the Creationist. Sorry, even if there is an ID there is no way to prove it. Unless you have God's Cook Book or notes...
You must prove ID is false, if you are going to rule it out. If you can't rule it out, what is the problem with my stance on macroevolution?

ID may or may not be able to be definitively proven...however, it can be the best inference from the data. Note that neither can it be proven that mere random, undirected DNA mutation and natural selection is the explanation for the origin of animal kinds and for what is seen in the fossil record. That is merely an inference, just like ID.

You don't seem to understand what ID is or what it entails. It most certainly is an advanced scientific argument.
Guy Noir
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I think the best evidence that there is a creator is that there is a creation. The explanation in Genesis is not a full scientific account of what happened, but it is a recorded item that the world was created.

Hypothesis : If there is a created world then there is/was a creator.
Hypothesis 2: If there is no created world then there is/was no creator

Conclusion: There is a created world thus there is a creator
BaylorJacket
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D. C. Bear said:

BaylorJacket said:

Oldbear83 said:

BaylorJacket: "If you are trying to paint a picture that Christians are on average more ethical/moral than any other religion/society, I'd have to disagree with you."

There are problems with that point. I'd say there are people who actually live their faith, while others put up a face for their neighbors and peers that is expected, while in private they are very different.

For example, one thing which has always bothered me is that Scripture makes clear that there is nothing wrong with being wealthy, so long as you have earned that money. But Jesus and others warned the rich of severe punishment. The key is avoiding love of money.

What I take from that, is that it's why we do a thing that makes it good or bad, and accordingly whether we are true or false to our faith.

There will always be cynics who claim this ia just a variant of the True Scotsman argument, but I think it is a valid and consistent way to look at anyone's claims to moral identity.

With the lessons of the mote in the eye and the Good Samaritan to guide us.

I think that's certainly a fair point - my issue following that logic though is then it requires us to define what the correct interpretation of the core source is (in this case Christian scripture). We have thousands of denominations that hold at times significantly different theological and moral ideas, who each believe their interpretation is the correct one. How can we define who is correct?

I fully agree though that intent is an important factor.


God is correct.
How do we know God's position/thoughts on the matter?
 
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