Nonresponsive. Let me know if you decide to answer.D. C. Bear said:It is my position as an American that a candidate who wants my vote for president has to earn my vote for president.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Trump Sings a Song of Sedition
6,820 Views |
123 Replies |
Last: 1 yr ago by fubar
I appreciate the thoughtful and cogent answer. We are honestly not that far apart. I am with you on Trump for the most part, and the damage he and his ilk have done to conservatism. And I worry for our future if he is the nominee.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
But having seen the last 2 years of disaster after disaster after disaster, I am simply not in a place where I can say 6 more years of disastrous policy that affects my life and the life of my family and friends is better than Trump. Ultimately, that is a decision we will have to make before the next election cycle if Trump is the nominee - do we prefer disastrous financial policy, foreign wars - including potential war with Russia - open borders, and sexual immorality run rampant to a buffoon who will likewise do damage to the conservative movement. It's a very tough position to be in - having to choose between two nightmare candidates. It literally is a scenario in which conservatives have to pick their poison.
If the Trump rally is any indication of where we are headed, then I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.
Again, this is why I continue to tout DeSantis, and hope he is the nominee. I am no fan of MAGA, but let's be honest - some of the establishment is every bit as bad in their own way.
You are not embarrassed by Trump's behavior? His Tweets? His exaggerations?RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The point is that, yes, Trump hurts many people's feelings but he still has a functioning brain. Whenever Joe Biden steps up to the microphone, I am embarrassed for our country. Every single thing the man touches turns to s h I t!RMF5630 said:RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
Joe Biden. The bestest President ever. I just hope we can change the Constitution so Joe can run again in 2028.
The house is burning down around us but ole Joe just says we are having a friendly barbecue. LOL!!! People get the government they deserve. Obviously we don't deserve much.
What does this have to do with nutcase Trump celebrating Jan 6th and doing his David Koresh routine?
no argument on Biden.
Sadly, for me, the question has become "Who will do the least damage to the country?" For the last two elections, it was pretty easily "Trump." And so I voted for him - twice.
But after his horrible behavior after the last loss, I think it is actually hard to predict what level of damage the country would take under this version of Trump. While I despise everything about Biden and his awful policies, I really believe Trump would burn every institution we have to the ground if it meant he got to be the winner. Fortunately, I think the outcome of my vote won't matter. If Trump is the nominee, he will lose, and badly, no matter how I vote. So it has become imperative to have anyone other than Trump be the nominee.
We have to make sure everyone understands that a vote to nominate Trump is a vote to elect Biden.
But after his horrible behavior after the last loss, I think it is actually hard to predict what level of damage the country would take under this version of Trump. While I despise everything about Biden and his awful policies, I really believe Trump would burn every institution we have to the ground if it meant he got to be the winner. Fortunately, I think the outcome of my vote won't matter. If Trump is the nominee, he will lose, and badly, no matter how I vote. So it has become imperative to have anyone other than Trump be the nominee.
We have to make sure everyone understands that a vote to nominate Trump is a vote to elect Biden.
I don't take a position as a "conservative," I take a position as an American. Quite responsive.Mothra said:Nonresponsive. Let me know if you decide to answer.D. C. Bear said:It is my position as an American that a candidate who wants my vote for president has to earn my vote for president.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Absolutely! I think Trump is a pompous ass!!! I do not like him. Tyrants around the world feared Trump. They laugh at Biden. And Trump doesn't need to constantly be reminded where the bathroom is. So there's that!RMF5630 said:You are not embarrassed by Trump's behavior? His Tweets? His exaggerations?RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The point is that, yes, Trump hurts many people's feelings but he still has a functioning brain. Whenever Joe Biden steps up to the microphone, I am embarrassed for our country. Every single thing the man touches turns to s h I t!RMF5630 said:RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
Joe Biden. The bestest President ever. I just hope we can change the Constitution so Joe can run again in 2028.
The house is burning down around us but ole Joe just says we are having a friendly barbecue. LOL!!! People get the government they deserve. Obviously we don't deserve much.
What does this have to do with nutcase Trump celebrating Jan 6th and doing his David Koresh routine?
no argument on Biden.
Only way in Hell I vote for him again is if there is a Biden, Harris, Obama, or Clinton on the other side of the ticket.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"
-- Barack Obama
-- Barack Obama
Yeah, we are in the same place. I only voted for him because of the alternative, Hillary or Biden. I do also agree he did a better job keeping Putin and Xi in the realm of reasonable than Biden. I do think the 2016 Trump was not a bad candidate or President. 2020 and beyond is a different animal...RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Absolutely! I think Trump is a pompous ass!!! I do not like him. Tyrants around the world feared Trump. They laugh at Biden. And Trump doesn't need to constantly be reminded where the bathroom is. So there's that!RMF5630 said:You are not embarrassed by Trump's behavior? His Tweets? His exaggerations?RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The point is that, yes, Trump hurts many people's feelings but he still has a functioning brain. Whenever Joe Biden steps up to the microphone, I am embarrassed for our country. Every single thing the man touches turns to s h I t!RMF5630 said:RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
Joe Biden. The bestest President ever. I just hope we can change the Constitution so Joe can run again in 2028.
The house is burning down around us but ole Joe just says we are having a friendly barbecue. LOL!!! People get the government they deserve. Obviously we don't deserve much.
What does this have to do with nutcase Trump celebrating Jan 6th and doing his David Koresh routine?
no argument on Biden.
Only way in Hell I vote for him again is if there is a Biden, Harris, Obama, or Clinton on the other side of the ticket.
Once we had Trump and Hillary as the presidential candidates, both the Democrat and Republican parties should have been on the brink of being bankrupted and replaced.
Should have.
Should have.
I believe we are on the same page. Trump has not matured one bit. The picture he posted on Twitter with him holding the baseball bat behind Alvin Bragg is the kind of childish crap I would have hoped would have gone away the last couple of years. Nope. Same old Trump. If DeSantis enters the race, I will back him 100 percent. We need younger leadership on both sides of the aisle.RMF5630 said:Yeah, we are in the same place. I only voted for him because of the alternative, Hillary or Biden. I do also agree he did a better job keeping Putin and Xi in the realm of reasonable than Biden. I do think the 2016 Trump was not a bad candidate or President. 2020 and beyond is a different animal...RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Absolutely! I think Trump is a pompous ass!!! I do not like him. Tyrants around the world feared Trump. They laugh at Biden. And Trump doesn't need to constantly be reminded where the bathroom is. So there's that!RMF5630 said:You are not embarrassed by Trump's behavior? His Tweets? His exaggerations?RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:The point is that, yes, Trump hurts many people's feelings but he still has a functioning brain. Whenever Joe Biden steps up to the microphone, I am embarrassed for our country. Every single thing the man touches turns to s h I t!RMF5630 said:RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
Joe Biden. The bestest President ever. I just hope we can change the Constitution so Joe can run again in 2028.
The house is burning down around us but ole Joe just says we are having a friendly barbecue. LOL!!! People get the government they deserve. Obviously we don't deserve much.
What does this have to do with nutcase Trump celebrating Jan 6th and doing his David Koresh routine?
no argument on Biden.
Only way in Hell I vote for him again is if there is a Biden, Harris, Obama, or Clinton on the other side of the ticket.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"
-- Barack Obama
-- Barack Obama
Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
Well, stew is better than piss, so I will.Osodecentx said:Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
I'll stick to my principles and have neither. Bon appetitMothra said:Well, stew is better than piss, so I will.Osodecentx said:Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
As someone who long ago jumped off the Trump train, I'll nonetheless defend Evangelicals on this:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
* Polls and voting patterns show evangelicals have long been one of the most issue-oriented interest groups (i.e., issues over candidate). Trump said and frankly, fought for, a lot of the "right" things. For example, no Pres candidate has ever been more vocal on life than Trump. Even strongly pro-life candidates have tried to downplay the issue.
* Many simply did not believe the porn star story, and Trump has always denied it.
* To the extent folks did believe, the core of Evangelicalism is we all are sinners, and we forgive. I've heard this from numerous Trump voters. They also point to the strong support he had from his family.
* I've never bought the "no group is more discriminated against than Christians" hype, but it is inarguable that Hollywood, media, academe, and much of the left have gone full-on anti-Christian. Evangelicals finally found someone who unabashedly fought back directly and fought back hard.
* Consider who the alternatives were, at least after the primary. Fair or unfair, Hillary and Biden have long been "enemies" of Evangelicals.
* Related to the above, just as the GOP has moved right, the Dems have moved hard left.
* Israel is hugely important to Evangelicals. Trump is unabashedly pro-Israel. Dems have moved the opposite way.
* "Christian Nationalism" is the most over-used and silliest descriptors in the history of politics. But the fact is, polls show Evangelicals are the most "patriotic" of all interest groups. Trump made it cool for folks to love their country again.
Trump Scoffs at Calls for 'Peaceful' Response to Arrest
The former president implied on Truth Social that violence may be necessary to defend him against a series of criminal investigations
By Ryan Bort
March 23, 2023
DONALD TRUMP last Saturday told his supporters to protest his impending arrest on charges stemming from the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election. Republicans tried to clean up his mess either by rejecting the idea that people should protest, or insisting they should do so peacefully -- but the former president doesn't seem interested in peace.
"EVERYBODY KNOWS I'M 100% INNOCENT, INCLUDING BRAGG, BUT HE DOESN'T CARE. HE IS JUST CARRYING OUT THE PLANS OF THE RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS. OUR COUNTRY IS BEING DESTROYED, AS THEY TELL US TO BE PEACEFUL!" he wrote Thursday on Truth Social.
Trump has also called for various forms of law enforcement violence, praised a lawmaker for assaulting a reporter, and tweeted "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" in response to the protests that followed George Floyd's murder. Rolling Stone reported earlier this year that Trump wants to expand the use of the death penalty and publicly broadcast executions by firing squad and other barbaric means.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-scoffs-calls-peaceful-response-arrest-1234702510/
The former president implied on Truth Social that violence may be necessary to defend him against a series of criminal investigations
By Ryan Bort
March 23, 2023
DONALD TRUMP last Saturday told his supporters to protest his impending arrest on charges stemming from the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election. Republicans tried to clean up his mess either by rejecting the idea that people should protest, or insisting they should do so peacefully -- but the former president doesn't seem interested in peace.
"EVERYBODY KNOWS I'M 100% INNOCENT, INCLUDING BRAGG, BUT HE DOESN'T CARE. HE IS JUST CARRYING OUT THE PLANS OF THE RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS. OUR COUNTRY IS BEING DESTROYED, AS THEY TELL US TO BE PEACEFUL!" he wrote Thursday on Truth Social.
Trump has made half-hearted overtures to peaceful demonstration in the past, but there's plenty of evidence suggesting he relishes violence carried out on his behalf -- from reports that he was cheering on the Jan. 6 riot, to his affection for those convicted in the deadly assault on democracy, to the implication Thursday that peace isn't enough to defend him against a bevy of criminal investigations.Quote:
Marjorie Taylor Greene this weekend: "Of course, he means peaceful. Of course, President Trump means peaceful protests."
Trump today: pic.twitter.com/8FBQEzQhxz
Aaron Blake (@AaronBlake) March 23, 2023
Trump has also called for various forms of law enforcement violence, praised a lawmaker for assaulting a reporter, and tweeted "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" in response to the protests that followed George Floyd's murder. Rolling Stone reported earlier this year that Trump wants to expand the use of the death penalty and publicly broadcast executions by firing squad and other barbaric means.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-scoffs-calls-peaceful-response-arrest-1234702510/
I wish that were true. But you guzzled down that piss like gin at a sorority party when you voted for wokesters in the midterms.Osodecentx said:I'll stick to my principles and have neither. Bon appetitMothra said:Well, stew is better than piss, so I will.Osodecentx said:Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
Let's not pretend that voting for wokesters was in any way a principled position. Even Sam and LIQR, who share your view of Trump, didn't go that far, but instead either didn't vote or cast a protest vote. You, on the other hand, voted for candidates who wanted abortion on demand, open borders, legalization of drugs, and trans rights. Did you not know that?
A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Agreed on most of these.sombear said:As someone who long ago jumped off the Trump train, I'll nonetheless defend Evangelicals on this:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
* Polls and voting patterns show evangelicals have long been one of the most issue-oriented interest groups (i.e., issues over candidate). Trump said and frankly, fought for, a lot of the "right" things. For example, no Pres candidate has ever been more vocal on life than Trump. Even strongly pro-life candidates have tried to downplay the issue.
* Many simply did not believe the porn star story, and Trump has always denied it.
* To the extent folks did believe, the core of Evangelicalism is we all are sinners, and we forgive. I've heard this from numerous Trump voters. They also point to the strong support he had from his family.
* I've never bought the "no group is more discriminated against than Christians" hype, but it is inarguable that Hollywood, media, academe, and much of the left have gone full-on anti-Christian. Evangelicals finally found someone who unabashedly fought back directly and fought back hard.
* Consider who the alternatives were, at least after the primary. Fair or unfair, Hillary and Biden have long been "enemies" of Evangelicals.
* Related to the above, just as the GOP has moved right, the Dems have moved hard left.
* Israel is hugely important to Evangelicals. Trump is unabashedly pro-Israel. Dems have moved the opposite way.
* "Christian Nationalism" is the most over-used and silliest descriptors in the history of politics. But the fact is, polls show Evangelicals are the most "patriotic" of all interest groups. Trump made it cool for folks to love their country again.
I didn't vote for crooks. You did. Did you know that?Mothra said:I wish that were true. But you guzzled down that piss like gin at a sorority party when you voted for wokesters in the midterms.Osodecentx said:I'll stick to my principles and have neither. Bon appetitMothra said:Well, stew is better than piss, so I will.Osodecentx said:Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
Let's not pretend that voting for wokesters was in any way a principled position. Even Sam and LIQR, who share your view of Trump, didn't go that far, but instead either didn't vote or cast a protest vote. You, on the other hand, voted for candidates who wanted abortion on demand, open borders, legalization of drugs, and trans rights. Did you not know that?
Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
So I voted for crooks, and you voted for abortion on demand, open borders, legalization of drugs, and trans rights. But you're the principled one, where as I compromised my principles.Osodecentx said:I didn't vote for crooks. You did. Did you know that?Mothra said:I wish that were true. But you guzzled down that piss like gin at a sorority party when you voted for wokesters in the midterms.Osodecentx said:I'll stick to my principles and have neither. Bon appetitMothra said:Well, stew is better than piss, so I will.Osodecentx said:Mothra said:LOL. "Nuanced."Osodecentx said:You're exactly right.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
Good luck explaining that nuance.
Tell us, was your voting for woke Democrats the last election more of that "nuance"?
You guys are a hoot.
You voted for dishonest people. Enjoy the stew
Your vote for Trump should cause you no problems of conscience
He's dishonest too
Let's not pretend that voting for wokesters was in any way a principled position. Even Sam and LIQR, who share your view of Trump, didn't go that far, but instead either didn't vote or cast a protest vote. You, on the other hand, voted for candidates who wanted abortion on demand, open borders, legalization of drugs, and trans rights. Did you not know that?
Nice logic.
Anyone who is a Christian knows that you can know a Christian by fruits and works. It's pretty basic theology. So yes, how one votes may be an indicator of where one stands in their faith, but it's certainly not determinative, nor have I ever suggested it was.Osodecentx said:Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
Regardless, my reason for asking those questions of Mitch had nothing to do with the above.
Theologically shabby and illogical.Mothra said:Anyone who is a Christian knows that you can know a Christian by fruits and works. It's pretty basic theology. So yes, how one votes may be an indicator of where one stands in their faith, but it's certainly not determinative, nor have I ever suggested it was.Osodecentx said:Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
Regardless, my reason for asking those questions of Mitch had nothing to do with the above.
This is the Fruit of the Spirit, not your party affiliation
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
You are again not only mischaracterizing my position, but also taking a position contrary to basic Christian theology.Osodecentx said:Theologically shabby and illogical.Mothra said:Anyone who is a Christian knows that you can know a Christian by fruits and works. It's pretty basic theology. So yes, how one votes may be an indicator of where one stands in their faith, but it's certainly not determinative, nor have I ever suggested it was.Osodecentx said:Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
Regardless, my reason for asking those questions of Mitch had nothing to do with the above.
This is the Fruit of the Spirit, not your party affiliation
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
The idea that our decisions don't demonstrate the works that proceed from faith in Christ is contrary to scripture. Our decisions identify who our identity is in. When we support things that are contrary to our purported faith, that is evidence of our faith, or lack thereof.
Again, these are very basic theological points. It's a bit shocking that a purported Christian would argue against them. Your idea that someone can believe or do what they want and still be Christian demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the faith, and borders on Gnosticism.
Osodecentx said:Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
Didnt we already have a multi page thread about Christianity, Republicans and voting? If you dont follow in mothras footsteps you are most likely on the highway to hell.
I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
Is that what you believe I said? LOL. You are a hoot as always.Sam Lowry said:I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
LMAO. You guys crack me up.Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Osodecentx said:Here we go again.Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Mitch, FYI, Mothra can tell whether you are a Christian by your vote in a political contest.
Didnt we already have a multi page thread about Christianity, Republicans and voting? If you dont follow in mothras footsteps you are most likely on the highway to hell.
So what will you do if and when you come around to sombear's point of view?Mothra said:Is that what you believe I said? LOL. You are a hoot as always.Sam Lowry said:I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
Don't know. But I do know I would never vote for Biden.Sam Lowry said:So what will you do if and when you come around to sombear's point of view?Mothra said:Is that what you believe I said? LOL. You are a hoot as always.Sam Lowry said:I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
But if you don't vote for Trump, that is a de facto vote for Biden. At least that's what you've told us.Mothra said:Don't know. But I do know I would never vote for Biden.Sam Lowry said:So what will you do if and when you come around to sombear's point of view?Mothra said:Is that what you believe I said? LOL. You are a hoot as always.Sam Lowry said:I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
With respect to 2020, correct. Any protest vote was a vote for Biden. We will see what 2024 brings. As I said above, I am still in the camp that we should vote for the Republican nominee given the last 2 years of complete and total disaster.Sam Lowry said:But if you don't vote for Trump, that is a de facto vote for Biden. At least that's what you've told us.Mothra said:Don't know. But I do know I would never vote for Biden.Sam Lowry said:So what will you do if and when you come around to sombear's point of view?Mothra said:Is that what you believe I said? LOL. You are a hoot as always.Sam Lowry said:I assume you mean November 2024. So it is possible that you might betray your most deeply held beliefs, cease to be a conservative, and cast a de facto vote for Biden. You just haven't fully made up your mind yet?Mothra said:I might be where you are by November 2023. That was an absolute **** show - by even Trump standards. So I appreciate your reasoning, and agree with 99% of it.sombear said:I'm reluctant to jump into this debate b/c we'll never change others' minds. Views on Trump are too entrenched.Mothra said:So your position is that as a "conservative," it doesn't matter who is president as between the two of them?D. C. Bear said:I refused to vote for Biden long before I refused to vote for Trump. Doesn't mean I have a preference for Trump.Mothra said:Couldn't disagree more.D. C. Bear said:My refusal to vote for Trump is not a preference for Biden any more than my refusal to vote for Biden is a preference for Trump.Mothra said:D. C. Bear said:Candidates have to earn my vote.Mothra said:
It's always amusing when the Never Trumpers try to pretend like their protest vote indicates anything other than a preference for Biden over Trump. NT's are a hoot.
Trump and Biden haven't.
Not sure of the relevance of that statement to my comments, but thanks for letting me know!
But . . . Mothra, I don't think it is as simple as binary choice and no-vote-helps Dems-so-have-to-vote Trump. My position has evolved. I despised Trump from the beginning. After the MSNBC tapes, I said I'd never vote for him. But I did . . . twice. It came down to what you now argue: If I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving up on issues I cared about for at least 4 years.
Now I can honestly say I will not vote for Trump under any circumstance. My view now is that there has to be a minimum threshold for candidate character. It's an exceedingly low threshold, but there is one. To me, Trump fails to meet it. Jan 6, the "rigged election" BS, and his bizarre attacks on longtime conservatives put me over the top.
As for the issues I care about, I think Trump will do more damage on those issues long term. He has tainted the GOP for the foreseeable future. If he's elected again, it might be irreversible. I am willing to take some near-term pain to avoid a long-term illness. Much of it has been unfair, much of it not, but Trump has damaged our Country and the conservative movement.
It pains me to say it, it really does, but the Never Trumpers were right. I'm not talking about the Never Trumpers who are no longer conservatives or who have "changed their minds" on core issues because . . . Trump.
BTW, ever voted Dem, like your friend Oso?
Since this thread seems to cover more than Trump...
Can someone name a presidential candidate running in the general presidential election the last two cycles (not primaries) that provided integrity and honor?
What party did that candidate represent, or were they independent?
What shows the candidate to be one of integrity and honor?
Can someone name a presidential candidate running in the general presidential election the last two cycles (not primaries) that provided integrity and honor?
What party did that candidate represent, or were they independent?
What shows the candidate to be one of integrity and honor?
Mothra said:A few questions:Mitch Blood Green said:
Trump is willing to burn down everything to get his way. I'm most surprised that Evangelicals fell for this okie doke.
As a none Evangelical, it appears to me that Christian values are just are not closely healed. They're just talking points.
I never thought I'd see a day where the family, American values Christians would line up behind a guy who cheats on all his wives including with a porn actress (I don't know that she's a star) - and justify it.
To me, it's sad because those values DO matter. Not just when it suits my politics.
1) Do you consider yourself a Christian?
2) Who did you vote for?
3) Do you think a vote for Biden is lining up with Christian values?
Not anymore. Evangelicals ran me out of the tribe.
Biden, Obama, Clinton,
In all those votes, Trump was the person I would never vote for. I like Romney (worked with him) Love W. GREAT GUY.
Trump is and always will be a fraud. Like his businesses, the Republican Party which I used to respect will be burned down.
Biden lines up with my values. You decide if it's Christian. He's a family man. Loves his son through his sins.
He represents midwestern working class values.