Work out your faith in fear and trembling
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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Last: 6 hrs ago by Oldbear83
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
There is no degree to belief - you either believe or you don't. Asking "how much" belief is needed is nonsense.
Secondly, you're continually repeating things that have already been shown to be directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches. You're repeatedly asserting that we can't know if we're saved, that only God can know, but as I've repeatedly showed, 1 John 5:13 says that WE CAN know:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
Notice that John says those who believe in Jesus can know they're saved, NOT those who believe AND have done a certain level of works.
You stated that that there is "no degree to belief". I demonstrated with the James passage that there is a difference in belief or faith.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Your example with demons doesn't seem to make your point, though.
You are trying to hinge your whole theology on one passage (or a few passages) without studying the whole of the bible.
As demonstrated, James 2:19 is in apparent contrast to claim in 1 John 5:13.
Just "believing" that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't get one to heaven. The demons believe. Or look at it another way, just like you said, one could believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not live by it.
Therefore, differences in degrees of belief exist.
The Church discusses three types of faith or belief:
Intellectual faith - knowledge - James 2:19 - even the demons believe.
Fiducial faith - Intellectual faith + trust in God - 1 Cor 13 - even if I have enough faith to move mountains, it will profit you nothing if you don't have love.
Formed faith - Fiducial faith + Love - faith working thru Charity. Gal 5:6 - neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything except faith thru love.
This is the constant double talk of Roman Catholicism. "No, salvation doesn't require works" but then your catechism literally states that sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129).Sam Lowry said:No, I'm just telling you what the Church says. "Salvation requires works" is a formulation in your own mind which might or might not reflect an accurate understanding of Church teaching.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Then apparently not only are you a RINO, you are also a RCINO.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
How are sacraments works that we perform?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This is the constant double talk of Roman Catholicism. "No, salvation doesn't require works" but then your catechism literally states that sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129).
Are you arguing for "once saved, always saved"?
Didn't John teach the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in his gospel?xfrodobagginsx said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I understand mid-Acts dispensationalism. But 1 John was written decades after Jesus died. Jesus had withdrawn his gospel of the Kingdom from the Jews because they rejected him, and when he died and rose again, the gospel of Grace was in effect and was how all people, Jews included, were to be saved. 1 John talks about Jesus' sacrifice was the propitiation for our sins (2:2) and how his blood cleanses us from sin (1:7) That isn't the Kingdom gospel, that's the Grace gospel which applies to all believers.xfrodobagginsx said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I have no idea what you're talking about. 1 John was not written to the Jews, it was written to Christians. Either way, the verse applies to all Jew/Gentile Christians, that by believing in Jesus in faith they can know they have eternal life - works are not required. This applies to whatever side of dispensationalism you're talking about (Jewish Christians believing that Jesus is their Messiah, or Gentile Christians believing Jesus died for our sins and was raised).xfrodobagginsx said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The stubborness is all on your part. You've been shown that your belief directly contradicts against what the Bible directly states:Fre3dombear said:xfrodobagginsx said:Fre3dombear said:
I think this video sums up well what I've seen posted here from the "I just do John 3:16" crowd. Even the devil is great at that and Jesus rebuked him
Any Catholic knows their doctrine says they are saved by Grace but God calls us to do more. It's explicitly written. God knows what you're capable of and how much you are putting forth in all manner of things he commands us to do.
The other nonsense sounds all warm and fuzzy and gooey and really, so simple. Takes mostly no effort at all.
I can see the appeal.
The fkesh wants to add works to grace, but if you add works to it for salvation, it nullifies grace. Beware. Faith alone without works. My Catholic friends add works and I fear for their souls. The Bible warns against that.
Literally said nowhere in the Bible. Stubbornness can be very costly. Hopefully God understands how many souls began to be misled 500 years ago
- Once again - your belief: "we can't know if we're saved"
- What the Bible says: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
Your belief directly contradicts the Bible, but it doesn't seem to faze you, and your way of dealing with it is just to ignore it and keep repeating your beliefs as if this MASSIVE problem with it doesn't exist, and that nobody will notice. THAT is what stubborness looks like. And it indicates to people who really is the one being misled here.
The verse you are using is not the Gospel of Grace. It was written to Jews, still observing the Law of Works. Are you a Jew under the Law?
John was one of the 12 Disciples. They were Ministers to Israel, not the Grace age, Gentile belivers. Only Paul's writings are for to the Grace age believers of today. I know ot sounds foreign to you because the Church taught you differently. If it were shown to you Biblicay, you woukd see it. Liste n to Tbrough The Bible With Les Feldick
https://www.lesfeldick.org/
John and the 12 Disciples never preached the Death, Burial & Resurrection for Salvation. They preached the Kingdom Gospel. If you understand
MidActsDispensationalism you should know that. Peter talks about it too, but nit for Salvation. That's why their writings continue to leave off the Death and Resurrection when presenting the Gospel. They also add Repentance and Baptism in the Kingdom Gospel.
The Kingdom gospel was preached by Jesus and his disciples up until Jesus died. The Jews rejected Jesus, therefore the Kingdom gospel was withdrawn from them. Jesus rescinded the offer. The Kingdom gospel will be preached to Israel again in the end times, after the church age (Gospel of Grace) is over.
I understand what you're saying, and your belief in mid-Acts dispensationalism. But there is disagreement as to when the age of Grace started. Yes, the disciples did not explicitly state that belief in the death and resurrection was necessary for salvation, but I think this is because it was already implicit - their message was that Jesus' resurrection was the very proof that he was indeed the Messiah. How could the Jews believe he was their King if he stayed in the grave? Jesus' death and resurrection were essential beliefs in both the Kingdom and Grace gospels after Jesus' death.
Here we go. Change the meaning of words to get around problems. Just like with "worship" and what Catholics do to Mary.Coke Bear said:How are sacraments works that we perform?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This is the constant double talk of Roman Catholicism. "No, salvation doesn't require works" but then your catechism literally states that sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129).
Are you arguing for "once saved, always saved"?
Anything you have to do or perform is a work.
There is nothing in my comment about once saved always saved. Though I do believe in it.
Your argument about demons in James 2:19 does not support your point. If anything, that verse is saying that the belief of demons is of the same degree as in humans.Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
There is no degree to belief - you either believe or you don't. Asking "how much" belief is needed is nonsense.
Secondly, you're continually repeating things that have already been shown to be directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches. You're repeatedly asserting that we can't know if we're saved, that only God can know, but as I've repeatedly showed, 1 John 5:13 says that WE CAN know:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
Notice that John says those who believe in Jesus can know they're saved, NOT those who believe AND have done a certain level of works.You stated that that there is "no degree to belief". I demonstrated with the James passage that there is a difference in belief or faith.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Your example with demons doesn't seem to make your point, though.
You are trying to hinge your whole theology on one passage (or a few passages) without studying the whole of the bible.
As demonstrated, James 2:19 is in apparent contrast to claim in 1 John 5:13.
Just "believing" that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't get one to heaven. The demons believe. Or look at it another way, just like you said, one could believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not live by it.
Therefore, differences in degrees of belief exist.
The Church discusses three types of faith or belief:
Intellectual faith - knowledge - James 2:19 - even the demons believe.
Fiducial faith - Intellectual faith + trust in God - 1 Cor 13 - even if I have enough faith to move mountains, it will profit you nothing if you don't have love.
Formed faith - Fiducial faith + Love - faith working thru Charity. Gal 5:6 - neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything except faith thru love.
The "belief" in 1 John 5:13 is obviously talking about the belief of humans, to whom salvation through Jesus is given. The demons are not given the opportunity to be saved, regardless of their belief. Jesus was made a man to redeem man. His death and resurrection does not save demons. Your argument is invalid.
There is no degree to belief, in that there is no 10% belief, 50% belief, or 99% belief. You either believe or you don't. The three types of faith or belief you describe are not degrees of belief, they're types. Having just intellectual knowledge of Jesus is not the "belief" (i.e. faith) that 1 John is talking about.
Fre3dombear said:
Work out your faith in fear and trembling
And, it would seem, in a great deal of Internet bickering.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
lulz. Keep being intellectually dishonest if that's what makes you happy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Here we go. Change the meaning of words to get around problems. Just like with "worship" and what Catholics do to Mary.
Therefore; believing is something you have to do, so then that is a work too.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Anything you have to do or perform is a work.
There is nothing in my comment about once saved always saved. Though I do believe in it.
- kkm
arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
What do you call those people who believe, but they don't follow the will of God?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Your argument about demons in James 2:19 does not support your point. If anything, that verse is saying that the belief of demons is of the same degree as in humans.Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
There is no degree to belief - you either believe or you don't. Asking "how much" belief is needed is nonsense.
Secondly, you're continually repeating things that have already been shown to be directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches. You're repeatedly asserting that we can't know if we're saved, that only God can know, but as I've repeatedly showed, 1 John 5:13 says that WE CAN know:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
Notice that John says those who believe in Jesus can know they're saved, NOT those who believe AND have done a certain level of works.You stated that that there is "no degree to belief". I demonstrated with the James passage that there is a difference in belief or faith.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Your example with demons doesn't seem to make your point, though.
You are trying to hinge your whole theology on one passage (or a few passages) without studying the whole of the bible.
As demonstrated, James 2:19 is in apparent contrast to claim in 1 John 5:13.
Just "believing" that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't get one to heaven. The demons believe. Or look at it another way, just like you said, one could believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not live by it.
Therefore, differences in degrees of belief exist.
The Church discusses three types of faith or belief:
Intellectual faith - knowledge - James 2:19 - even the demons believe.
Fiducial faith - Intellectual faith + trust in God - 1 Cor 13 - even if I have enough faith to move mountains, it will profit you nothing if you don't have love.
Formed faith - Fiducial faith + Love - faith working thru Charity. Gal 5:6 - neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything except faith thru love.
The "belief" in 1 John 5:13 is obviously talking about the belief of humans, to whom salvation through Jesus is given. The demons are not given the opportunity to be saved, regardless of their belief. Jesus was made a man to redeem man. His death and resurrection does not save demons. Your argument is invalid.
There is no degree to belief, in that there is no 10% belief, 50% belief, or 99% belief. You either believe or you don't. The three types of faith or belief you describe are not degrees of belief, they're types. Having just intellectual knowledge of Jesus is not the "belief" (i.e. faith) that 1 John is talking about.
Or what about those people who also believe and try to follow the will of God, but fail from time to time?
My point is, "belief-alone" (i.e. faith alone) is not enough.
https://faithalone.org/ges-seminary/faculty/wilkin/Coke Bear said:What do you call those people who believe, but they don't follow the will of God?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Your argument about demons in James 2:19 does not support your point. If anything, that verse is saying that the belief of demons is of the same degree as in humans.Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
There is no degree to belief - you either believe or you don't. Asking "how much" belief is needed is nonsense.
Secondly, you're continually repeating things that have already been shown to be directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches. You're repeatedly asserting that we can't know if we're saved, that only God can know, but as I've repeatedly showed, 1 John 5:13 says that WE CAN know:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
Notice that John says those who believe in Jesus can know they're saved, NOT those who believe AND have done a certain level of works.You stated that that there is "no degree to belief". I demonstrated with the James passage that there is a difference in belief or faith.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Your example with demons doesn't seem to make your point, though.
You are trying to hinge your whole theology on one passage (or a few passages) without studying the whole of the bible.
As demonstrated, James 2:19 is in apparent contrast to claim in 1 John 5:13.
Just "believing" that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't get one to heaven. The demons believe. Or look at it another way, just like you said, one could believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not live by it.
Therefore, differences in degrees of belief exist.
The Church discusses three types of faith or belief:
Intellectual faith - knowledge - James 2:19 - even the demons believe.
Fiducial faith - Intellectual faith + trust in God - 1 Cor 13 - even if I have enough faith to move mountains, it will profit you nothing if you don't have love.
Formed faith - Fiducial faith + Love - faith working thru Charity. Gal 5:6 - neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything except faith thru love.
The "belief" in 1 John 5:13 is obviously talking about the belief of humans, to whom salvation through Jesus is given. The demons are not given the opportunity to be saved, regardless of their belief. Jesus was made a man to redeem man. His death and resurrection does not save demons. Your argument is invalid.
There is no degree to belief, in that there is no 10% belief, 50% belief, or 99% belief. You either believe or you don't. The three types of faith or belief you describe are not degrees of belief, they're types. Having just intellectual knowledge of Jesus is not the "belief" (i.e. faith) that 1 John is talking about.
Or what about those people who also believe and try to follow the will of God, but fail from time to time?
My point is, "belief-alone" (i.e. faith alone) is not enough.
arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
Apologies. I'm not familiar with this man or his teachings.william said:
https://faithalone.org/ges-seminary/faculty/wilkin/
Keep lying to yourself. I'm pretty certain that those reading this forum aren't buying it. They know what worship is when they see it.Coke Bear said:lulz. Keep being intellectually dishonest if that's what makes you happy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Here we go. Change the meaning of words to get around problems. Just like with "worship" and what Catholics do to Mary.Therefore; believing is something you have to do, so then that is a work too.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Anything you have to do or perform is a work.
There is nothing in my comment about once saved always saved. Though I do believe in it.
You don't "do" belief. Please understand what words mean.
No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
- The will of God IS to believe.Coke Bear said:What do you call those people who believe, but they don't follow the will of God?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Your argument about demons in James 2:19 does not support your point. If anything, that verse is saying that the belief of demons is of the same degree as in humans.Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
There is no degree to belief - you either believe or you don't. Asking "how much" belief is needed is nonsense.
Secondly, you're continually repeating things that have already been shown to be directly contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches. You're repeatedly asserting that we can't know if we're saved, that only God can know, but as I've repeatedly showed, 1 John 5:13 says that WE CAN know:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
Notice that John says those who believe in Jesus can know they're saved, NOT those who believe AND have done a certain level of works.You stated that that there is "no degree to belief". I demonstrated with the James passage that there is a difference in belief or faith.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Your example with demons doesn't seem to make your point, though.
You are trying to hinge your whole theology on one passage (or a few passages) without studying the whole of the bible.
As demonstrated, James 2:19 is in apparent contrast to claim in 1 John 5:13.
Just "believing" that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't get one to heaven. The demons believe. Or look at it another way, just like you said, one could believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not live by it.
Therefore, differences in degrees of belief exist.
The Church discusses three types of faith or belief:
Intellectual faith - knowledge - James 2:19 - even the demons believe.
Fiducial faith - Intellectual faith + trust in God - 1 Cor 13 - even if I have enough faith to move mountains, it will profit you nothing if you don't have love.
Formed faith - Fiducial faith + Love - faith working thru Charity. Gal 5:6 - neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything except faith thru love.
The "belief" in 1 John 5:13 is obviously talking about the belief of humans, to whom salvation through Jesus is given. The demons are not given the opportunity to be saved, regardless of their belief. Jesus was made a man to redeem man. His death and resurrection does not save demons. Your argument is invalid.
There is no degree to belief, in that there is no 10% belief, 50% belief, or 99% belief. You either believe or you don't. The three types of faith or belief you describe are not degrees of belief, they're types. Having just intellectual knowledge of Jesus is not the "belief" (i.e. faith) that 1 John is talking about.
Or what about those people who also believe and try to follow the will of God, but fail from time to time?
My point is, "belief-alone" (i.e. faith alone) is not enough.
- ALL believers try to follow God and fail from time to time.
- Your belief that faith alone is not enough directly contradicts what Paul said and what Jesus did.
"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
I'm not sure where you got that it was about living a particular length of time or achieving a certain number of works. That wasn't the point.
I really don't think you understand what worship is. We've gone over this. I've explained it you, but I can't make you understand. Quite frankly, I really don't care what you think. It's still humorous how you continue to throw out ad hominem attacks when confronted. I see nothing has changed during my Lenten break from this board.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Keep lying to yourself. I'm pretty certain that those reading this forum aren't buying it. They know what worship is when they see it.
Believing is an action. It is something you have to DO.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
You don't "do" belief. Please understand what words mean.
No it isn't. You're playing games. Faith/Belief is not a work.Coke Bear said:I really don't think you understand what worship is. We've gone over this. I've explained it you, but I can't make you understand. Quite frankly, I really don't care what you think. It's still humorous how you continue to throw out ad hominem attacks when confronted. I see nothing has changed during my Lenten break from this board.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Keep lying to yourself. I'm pretty certain that those reading this forum aren't buying it. They know what worship is when they see it.Believing is an action. It is something you have to DO.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
You don't "do" belief. Please understand what words mean.
I understand what YOU think worship is or isn't. The Roman Catholic argument of latria vs hyperdulia/dulia is just word games. The Bible clearly defines even "dulia" as worship. Catholics bow and kiss statues. The Bible clearly says that's worship. It's why Peter refused people to bow to him (Acts 10:26) and why the angel rebuked John in Revelation when he bowed to him (Rev 22:8).
In Matthew 6:24 - "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money" - the word "serve" there in Greek is the root word for "dulia". The Bible says "dulia" is worship.
And frankly, if you can't see that the idolatrous and heretical prayers to Mary I've referenced is worship of Mary, and the hundreds of feasts throughout the year for Mary, singing hymns to her, praying to her, and having statues and pictures everywhere of her even in church that you bow to and kiss - if you can't see that's pure worship you're just a blind fool. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but it's the truth. You are trapped in deception. Anyone with at least an ounce of sense can see that that.
Here's another example, the "Hail Holy Queen" Catholic prayer:
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to you do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile
show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Amen."
This is, like all the other Marian devotions and prayers I've referenced, CLEARLY exonerating her to the level of worship, as well as being quite heretical and idolatrous. It's quite unbelievable and sad how blind you are to this.
No, that is not what the RC teaches. It's a semantic sleight of hand on your part.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
The Church teaches that we are fully reconciled with God when we put our faith in Christ. Works are part of living in obedience to God and remaining in a state of grace during our time on earth. If you put your faith in Christ and die immediately thereafter, like the thief on the cross, you've committed no disobedience. The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven. While both of these ideas might be described in some sense as a "requirement of works," they are very different ideas.
Your argument is that, simply because you've chosen to lump these concepts together, Roman Catholics HAVE TO believe they are one and the same. Here's the thing, though. We don't actually have to believe that. And no one does believe it, because there's no historical or logical basis for it whatsoever.
If your goal is to critique RC theology in some kind of meaningful way, you need to begin by understanding what it is. Good theology, like good law, is equal parts careful reasoning and common sense. What you dismiss as "double talk" is anything but. It's just a recognition of both of those elements.
Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
I see it as a state of friendship with God, being without mortal sin, by God's grace and the atonement of Christ. Our faith, our works, and the sacraments are all instruments of that grace.Oldbear83 said:Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
Oldbear83 said:Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
Being in a state of Grace is being free from mortal sin. This is achieved through confession (with certain exception).
Wow it seems some are still arguing they have to do no works to get to Heaven. You cant even do that and keep a job unless you work for the government
people here trying to advocate OSAS and somehow having a workless faith (impossible but let them believe) and you live in eternity with God
Imagine arguing for doing only some twisted definition of the absolute bare minimum to someone and you get eternal life. That's some scary, twisted logic
God knows most every person can do more and in fact commands and expects it from them otherwise, as you know, faiths without works is dead
He will say "I know them not. I never knew them depart from me."
people here trying to advocate OSAS and somehow having a workless faith (impossible but let them believe) and you live in eternity with God
Imagine arguing for doing only some twisted definition of the absolute bare minimum to someone and you get eternal life. That's some scary, twisted logic
God knows most every person can do more and in fact commands and expects it from them otherwise, as you know, faiths without works is dead
He will say "I know them not. I never knew them depart from me."
Thanks Sam. I really like the point about friendship. So many people forget that Abraham was the first person specifically noted to be friends with God, and I think the Covenant is fruit from that friendship.Sam Lowry said:I see it as a state of friendship with God, being without mortal sin, by God's grace and the atonement of Christ. Our faith, our works, and the sacraments are all instruments of that grace.Oldbear83 said:Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Oldbear83 said:Thanks Sam. I really like the point about friendship. So many people forget that Abraham was the first person specifically noted to be friends with God, and I think the Covenant is fruit from that friendship.Sam Lowry said:I see it as a state of friendship with God, being without mortal sin, by God's grace and the atonement of Christ. Our faith, our works, and the sacraments are all instruments of that grace.Oldbear83 said:Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Hello Sam, serious question.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
How do you see being in a "state of grace"?
It's important to me because if I understand you correctly I agree, but to me being in a state of grace means receiving God's pleasure, and being grateful for His mercy and love.
Do you agree, or do you have a different understanding?
Thanks in advance.
Being in a state of Grace is being free from mortal sin. This is achieved through confession (with certain exception).
False. That is unBiblical. We ONLY gain God's grace and forgiveness of our sins by FAITH in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice on the cross to pay for our sins.
Be very clear about this - the Roman Catholic Catechism explicitly states that the sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129). You however, are saying that the sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation? BE CLEAR.Sam Lowry said:No, that is not what the RC teaches. It's a semantic sleight of hand on your part.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
The Church teaches that we are fully reconciled with God when we put our faith in Christ. Works are part of living in obedience to God and remaining in a state of grace during our time on earth. If you put your faith in Christ and die immediately thereafter, like the thief on the cross, you've committed no disobedience. The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven. While both of these ideas might be described in some sense as a "requirement of works," they are very different ideas.
Your argument is that, simply because you've chosen to lump these concepts together, Roman Catholics HAVE TO believe they are one and the same. Here's the thing, though. We don't actually have to believe that. And no one does believe it, because there's no historical or logical basis for it whatsoever.
If your goal is to critique RC theology in some kind of meaningful way, you need to begin by understanding what it is. Good theology, like good law, is equal parts careful reasoning and common sense. What you dismiss as "double talk" is anything but. It's just a recognition of both of those elements.
There it is!!Sam Lowry said:No, that is not what the RC teaches. It's a semantic sleight of hand on your part.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
The Church teaches that we are fully reconciled with God when we put our faith in Christ. Works are part of living in obedience to God and remaining in a state of grace during our time on earth. If you put your faith in Christ and die immediately thereafter, like the thief on the cross, you've committed no disobedience. The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven. While both of these ideas might be described in some sense as a "requirement of works," they are very different ideas.
Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is by grace..... but you have to do works to KEEP that grace. That's no different than saying works are required for salvation. The only "sleight of hand" here is what Roman Catholicism does by muddying up the concept of "grace". A free gift isn't a gift at all if you have to work to keep it.
You: "The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven" -
.... but it HAS to, right? I mean, if you're saying that you need works to maintain the grace you've received, then isn't it important to know how many works are needed? This goes back to my other question - if you don't know how many works are needed to keep your grace, if you don't know what the cutoff point is, then you CAN'T ever know if you are saved or not. But that directly contradicts 1 John 5:13.
When you guys say that "works are necessary for salvation" and then say that it's not, or when you say that grace is a free gift..... that you have to work for, or when you say that "we are bound by the sacraments... but God isn't bound by them, so water baptism, while required, isn't really required - then WHO CAN understand RC theology??Sam Lowry said:......If your goal is to critique RC theology in some kind of meaningful way, you need to begin by understanding what it is. Good theology, like good law, is equal parts careful reasoning and common sense. What you dismiss as "double talk" is anything but. It's just a recognition of both of those elements.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
There isn't enough careful reasoning or common sense in the world to get around all that double talk and sleight of hand.
They are necessary if you're alive to receive them. Otherwise you're probably not reading the Catechism.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Be very clear about this - the Roman Catholic Catechism explicitly states that the sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129). You however, are saying that the sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation? BE CLEAR.Sam Lowry said:No, that is not what the RC teaches. It's a semantic sleight of hand on your part.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
The Church teaches that we are fully reconciled with God when we put our faith in Christ. Works are part of living in obedience to God and remaining in a state of grace during our time on earth. If you put your faith in Christ and die immediately thereafter, like the thief on the cross, you've committed no disobedience. The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven. While both of these ideas might be described in some sense as a "requirement of works," they are very different ideas.
Your argument is that, simply because you've chosen to lump these concepts together, Roman Catholics HAVE TO believe they are one and the same. Here's the thing, though. We don't actually have to believe that. And no one does believe it, because there's no historical or logical basis for it whatsoever.
If your goal is to critique RC theology in some kind of meaningful way, you need to begin by understanding what it is. Good theology, like good law, is equal parts careful reasoning and common sense. What you dismiss as "double talk" is anything but. It's just a recognition of both of those elements.
The person in my example was alive to receive them until he wasn't. If you're saying he was saved despite not having done a single work including the sacraments, then you're saying the sacraments aren't necessary for salvation, which goes directly against your own Church's catechism.Sam Lowry said:They are necessary if you're alive to receive them. Otherwise you're probably not reading the Catechism.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Be very clear about this - the Roman Catholic Catechism explicitly states that the sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC 1129). You however, are saying that the sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation? BE CLEAR.Sam Lowry said:No, that is not what the RC teaches. It's a semantic sleight of hand on your part.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So then, since according to Roman Catholicism there is a requirement of works for salvation, then a Roman Catholic has to believe that the person in my example (dies right after coming to faith in Jesus, having done zero works) is NOT saved and is in Hell. This is what you were denying that any Catholic believes or has been saying. But they HAVE to believe it, if they're being consistent with RC teaching.Sam Lowry said:I'll see what you describe as the requirement of works. What I won't see is any requirement to live a particular length of time or achieve a particular number of accomplishments. That would be nonsensical.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:"In a state of grace" - delve into what a Roman Catholic actually means by that, and you'll see the requirement of works.Sam Lowry said:No, I only check this thread once in a great while. But nowhere does the Church teach or imply anything like that, so I doubt anyone said it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Have you been reading FreedomBear's comments? It's exactly what he has been saying. I believe he is a Catholic like you, I'm not sure. You need to ask him because he won't answer my questions. He "blocked" me so he wouldn't have to.Sam Lowry said:It's not a belief of Roman Catholics or anyone else that I know of.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:It's the necessary belief of someone who believes faith and works are required for salvation. Doesn't that include you, a Roman Catholic?Sam Lowry said:That is quite bizarre. I've never heard of anyone believing it, but I assume it's some kind of Christian nationalist MAGA thing.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
To those who believe that faith AND works are required for salvation:
What this essentially means is that if a person hears the gospel and believes it in his heart, and at that moment puts his trust in Jesus for his salvation, and then dies soon after before performing a single work, it means this person is NOT saved and is in Hell. You can't argue it any other way, there's just no escaping this. "Required" means required. Any attempt to create "exceptions" goes entirely against the concept of "required".
All that is required of a Christian is to exit this life in a state of grace. Whether it's after an hour, a decade, or a century makes no difference.
The Church teaches that we are fully reconciled with God when we put our faith in Christ. Works are part of living in obedience to God and remaining in a state of grace during our time on earth. If you put your faith in Christ and die immediately thereafter, like the thief on the cross, you've committed no disobedience. The Church does not teach that we must accumulate some arbitrary number of good works, regardless of how unattainable it may be, in order to buy our own way into heaven. While both of these ideas might be described in some sense as a "requirement of works," they are very different ideas.
Your argument is that, simply because you've chosen to lump these concepts together, Roman Catholics HAVE TO believe they are one and the same. Here's the thing, though. We don't actually have to believe that. And no one does believe it, because there's no historical or logical basis for it whatsoever.
If your goal is to critique RC theology in some kind of meaningful way, you need to begin by understanding what it is. Good theology, like good law, is equal parts careful reasoning and common sense. What you dismiss as "double talk" is anything but. It's just a recognition of both of those elements.
This isn't about whether the sacraments are required for the dead, but for the living. If you have to resort to sophism to make your beliefs work, then what does that say about them?