Fre3dombear said:xfrodobagginsx said:Fre3dombear said:xfrodobagginsx said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The sooner you abandon your straw man that we're saying that you don't have to obey Jesus' commands, the better and more productive it'll be for this discussion.Fre3dombear said:xfrodobagginsx said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:That's exactly what Jesus said in the Bible. Matthew 19:16-17 :Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:
I've been struggling what I've heard some here says is all that is needed from you for eternal salvation with Jesus' words to "pick up your cross"
Make it make sense.
I believe
Well, the first thing I suggest is to step back and assume goodwill unless there is evidence of malice.
Jesus made plain that He wanted to save men, not look for excuses to condemn.
Consider the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him. I have seen all kinds of complicated theories about how the thief did some kind of work to support his redemption, or how his case proves all we have to do is sincerely repent and ask for forgiveness, but how about recognizing Christ is King and has authority on this point, not any human.
More than one place is it written that God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"
Or consider the woman caught in adultery. Despite her clear sin, Christ (the only one without sin and therefore the only one who could throw the first stone) chose not to condemn her. No one would seriously claim that meant Jesus did not uphold the Law, rather it showed Christ had authority and compassion and used both where He chose.
Jesus did indeed tell us to take up our cross and follow Him. He also said His yoke is light. That's not a contradiction but reveals that the Lord thinks of each of us as individual persons, and His will and judgment for us is according to the Father's will.
Again, I think whenever a Christian gets angry at another Christian, he or she may well be missing something the Holy Spirit wants us to find.
The Bible doesn't say you have to follow The 10 commandments to go to Heaven but no way do I want to be on the side of that convoluted argument yet many here are, whether they realize it or not.
"And behold, a man came up to [Jesus], saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
What do you make of this?
The reason Jesus said this is because He was Ministering to Jews who were still under the Law. Jesus came to fulfil the Law, but it hadn't been fulfilled yet until.the Crusifixion. After the Resurrection, they were free from the Law, but that hadn't been revealed yet until the Apostle Paul. The be leaving you still kept the law while at the same time Paul's Gentile converts we're under grace. After the destruction of the Temple, the Jews could no longer sacrifice and they were instructed to go to Paul's writing for salvation. In this day and age we are all under grace and must come to Christ my faith alone believing that He died on the cross and the rose from the Dead for our sins to be saved. The law cannot save anyone.
You as well have been misled into their "faith alone" trope which is nowhere in the Bible except one place which doesn't say what you are saying.
You're confusing the mosaic laws of the Jews with commands Jesus told us to obey. Not obeying them but somehow believing you have faith is 1) a non sequitur and 2) leads to a very bad place.
Obedience is a fruit of true faith. True faith is what saves, not your obedience.
It's not about disobeying Jessus. It's about that He wasn't talkkng to the Church. He was talking to Jews under Law.
Romans 3:19 KJV
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:
The same Jesus gave Paul his message of grace and it is only contained in Paul's writings.
Some here say you only have to believe. They don't say how much to believe. A lot? How can one measure? Do you have to outwardly demonstrate you believe? Nope not at all. Not a single work is required your entire life (oh wait. Believing is a work so just 1 now they say but it can be silently in the thoughts of your brain or deep in the hidden recesses of your heart. No worries. Just one work. Not none. But definitely no workS required even though it is written everywhere and stayed frequently by Jesus himself) . Just believe. How can one know they believe "enough", they are asked? They have no answers for this but try to sell some simple way to achieve everlasting life by just believing. It sounds great. So easy. So warm and fuzzy. Yet unlikely OSAS and just close your eyes and whisper in your head "Jesus, I believe" and poof you go to Heaven. Nothing else is required they say.
Some here believe, as it is written, God commands more to be done. They may ask "Well how much more?" Only God can know so do the best you know how but do the actions that he commands. The works required to have faith because "faith alone" will never be enough. It even explicitly states in the Bible that "faith alone" isn't enough. Yet some can see and yet are blind. Some will call out teacher and He will say I know you not.
Work hard every day to not be that person.
Prayers for all on this journey we struggle with daily and may God's Grace be upon us all.
But what does the Bible.say? That's what counts. & obviously God doesn't consider Faith a work. Because the Bible says Faith without the works of the Law & that it's not by works of righteousness which WE have done....
Well that's the key. You're almost there.
Faith in and of itself is not a work. In a way to help placate those that get pretzeled up in it it has been written and explained that true faith really can't exist without an outward (visible to other humans) action or work. One can't be cloistered in their room for 89 years telling God in their head they really really love him and believe and truly practice true faith. Also better articulated in the definition of the Greek word used in those verses for what we call "faith" in English and what that meant to people of the day. Church fathers write extensively in this as well. Certainly Luther was taught and knew and understood this before he invented new dogma 1500 years later.
Works of the law as we've said over and over, for example in Romans and slashing pee pees to get to Heaven, are not required as the Jews were trying to suggest to the Gentiles (meaning works of the Mosaic law).
Works are required as stated in near countless posts I've made to date explicitly quoting chapter and verse and probably 20 church fathers writings explaining and teaching the scriptures from the time of Peter to Augustine (stopped there only to remain relevant to the near term period showing how far back this discussion and teaching goes)
Some say it doesn't matter. That's not a risk I or people who are say Catholic are willing to risk. Anyone I try to help lead to the faith will never be told that by me as I wouldn't want that on my soul in misleading them. I have enough other dirty stuff there anyway. Don't need more.
Works are not required, but works are the result of Faith because Faith is believing God to the point of submission to His will. If you are relying on your works to save you then Paul says you are not saved. Saying that works are required is equal to saying that works saved. I was recently visiting a Church called Connections in the Detroit Area and the Pastor said that works were required. I was about to join that Church until he said that. I prayed about it and God spoke to my spirit and said "They are serving through the Law of works". I knew then that I had no choice but to leave.
Works are the resukt of true faith but works are not required for salvation.