Yes,Islam is the fastest shrinking religion there, while Christianity is growing the fastest.

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Do you know of a source that might indicate the percentage that return within say about 5 years?
I have been away on vacation where internet is not good. I hope to get back to the discussion I left hanging withing a day or two, so I can learn a bit more about the topics we were on.

---

According to Barna, 17% or so return after having kids.

Enjoy your vacation!

---

Ouch! I'm not sure it's getting any better; especially with other research revealing a declining faith; however perhaps other, similar research is being done, including why they came back. We might be able to use that in our evangelistic efforts.

I know when I was at Baylor, the first semester I observed several who reduced &/or stopped attending church; however, sometime during the second semester I noticed that some started back up, and some others during their sophomore year. Most moved off campus by the end of their sophomore year.

---

What is awesome is the total collapse in number of mosques in Iran

---

What's going on with that? And what is the cause?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Here's some more information; preliminary information indicates that he may have had mental health issues.

Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as local man who attended with his mother

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-identify-michigan-church-shooting-suspect-local-man-attended-mo-rcna214440

---

I was in the Church when it happened. Had it not been for the brave security men, I would have been dead, along with 150 others.

The short guy in the picture is me...


https://www.wnd.com/2025/06/sitting-ducks-gunman-shoots-up-sunday-church-service/?fbclid=IwY2xjawLIV8dleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHkU3Vm6xBgaj7EdPa1yo5TLMIDRpPC225JnH9u28NWkGJjgoD2XfTP7yNrjH_aem_98DZtrlTJOxj8a-6wpE8nA

---

Wow. Glad you were ok

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Do you know of a source that might indicate the percentage that return within say about 5 years?
I have been away on vacation where internet is not good. I hope to get back to the discussion I left hanging withing a day or two, so I can learn a bit more about the topics we were on.

---

According to Barna, 17% or so return after having kids.

Enjoy your vacation!

---

Ouch! I'm not sure it's getting any better; especially with other research revealing a declining faith; however perhaps other, similar research is being done, including why they came back. We might be able to use that in our evangelistic efforts.

I know when I was at Baylor, the first semester I observed several who reduced &/or stopped attending church; however, sometime during the second semester I noticed that some started back up, and some others during their sophomore year. Most moved off campus by the end of their sophomore year.

---

What is awesome is the total collapse in number of mosques in Iran

---

What's going on with that? And what is the cause?

---

Secularism meets most people dont want to walk
Around in a bed sheet and blow up Innocent people in the name of their god

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Here's some more information; preliminary information indicates that he may have had mental health issues.

Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as local man who attended with his mother

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-identify-michigan-church-shooting-suspect-local-man-attended-mo-rcna214440

---

I was in the Church when it happened. Had it not been for the brave security men, I would have been dead, along with 150 others.

The short guy in the picture is me...


https://www.wnd.com/2025/06/sitting-ducks-gunman-shoots-up-sunday-church-service/?fbclid=IwY2xjawLIV8dleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHkU3Vm6xBgaj7EdPa1yo5TLMIDRpPC225JnH9u28NWkGJjgoD2XfTP7yNrjH_aem_98DZtrlTJOxj8a-6wpE8nA

---

Wow. Glad you were ok

---

Thanks

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Do you know of a source that might indicate the percentage that return within say about 5 years?
I have been away on vacation where internet is not good. I hope to get back to the discussion I left hanging withing a day or two, so I can learn a bit more about the topics we were on.

---

According to Barna, 17% or so return after having kids.

Enjoy your vacation!

---

Ouch! I'm not sure it's getting any better; especially with other research revealing a declining faith; however perhaps other, similar research is being done, including why they came back. We might be able to use that in our evangelistic efforts.

I know when I was at Baylor, the first semester I observed several who reduced &/or stopped attending church; however, sometime during the second semester I noticed that some started back up, and some others during their sophomore year. Most moved off campus by the end of their sophomore year.

---

What is awesome is the total collapse in number of mosques in Iran

---

What's going on with that? And what is the cause?

---

Secularism meets most people dont want to walk
Around in a bed sheet and blow up Innocent people in the name of their god

---

Radical Muslims do

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Theology Didn't Heal Them Jesus Did

The Scandalous Simplicity of Salvation: When Love and Reverence Matter More Than Doctrinal Precision
JUN 26

Imagine you're flat on your back, completely paralyzed. Your friends cut a hole in the roof and lower you down with ropes to the feet of a teacher you've only heard rumors about. You didn't come for a theology lectureyou came to walk again. And the first words out of His mouth are: "Your sins are forgiven."

That man in Capernaum never recited the Nicene Creed (or anything comparable to it). He didn't clarify whether Jesus had one will or two. He didn't outline anything that resembled the Definition of Chalcedon. All he had was helplessness, and hope in the Healer. And Jesus, seeing his faith, forgave him. Just like that.

Picture a woman weeping at a dinner party, washing Jesus' feet with her tears and hair. The room recoilsisn't He aware of what she is? But Jesus looks at her, not with disgust, but with divine tenderness. "Your sins are forgiven." Did she articulate precise Christology? No. She just loved much.

Zacchaeus, a tax collector in a tree, couldn't parse the theological details of the hypostatic union. But he scrambled like a child just to catch a glimpse of Christ. And when Jesus dined with him, Zacchaeus didn't quote the theological traditions of his forefathershe just repented of his past sins and gave generously to the poor. And Jesus said, "Today, salvation has come to this house."

None of these people had the kind of systematic theology you and I might take for granted. But they had something better: desperate, clumsy, wide-eyed faith. The kind that crawls to Christ when it can't stand. The kind that weeps when words run out.

St. John Chrysostom talks about the thief on the cross, and Christ's promise of Paradise, "addressing a thief who knew nothing of difficult teaching."

This isn't lowering the bar. This is lifting our eyes away from ivory towers and onto the torn, forgiving hands of Christ.

The thief on the cross didn't take a Christology class. He just said, "Lord, remember me in your kingdom." And Jesus said, "You shall be with me in Paradise." That's the scandal of grace. It's not that doctrine doesn't matterit's that grace doesn't wait for our vocabulary to catch up.

Jesus is the heart surgeon. He doesn't quiz you on anatomy before the transplant. You don't need to know how to explain His divinity before He saves you. All you have to do is be still, trust the hands holding the scalpel, and let Him operate.

Truth matters. Doctrine matters. But the Shepherd isn't waiting for you to pass an exam. He's looking for the bruised, the broken, and the hopeful. So even if your theology limpsgrace still runs.

2025 Fr. Joseph Gleason
Rostov Veliky, Russia

---

It sounds like he's saying salvation by faith alone. And all this talk of salvation by grace.... but at what point, though, does it turn from grace into a matter of personal performance (taking up one's cross, sacraments) being a part of the "process"? Because that's the view that's being espoused by you and many others here - two competing concepts (grace and works) in the same breath. It just isn't tenable. How does this work?

---

Salvation is by grace through faith. Works don't save anyone but they demonstrate the reality of it. One only needs to read the New Testament prayerfully. The gospel of John and Romans are good place to start followed by James. And James does not contradict Paul or the teachings of Christ. He complements them.

historian said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Theology Didn't Heal Them Jesus Did

The Scandalous Simplicity of Salvation: When Love and Reverence Matter More Than Doctrinal Precision
JUN 26

Imagine you're flat on your back, completely paralyzed. Your friends cut a hole in the roof and lower you down with ropes to the feet of a teacher you've only heard rumors about. You didn't come for a theology lectureyou came to walk again. And the first words out of His mouth are: "Your sins are forgiven."

That man in Capernaum never recited the Nicene Creed (or anything comparable to it). He didn't clarify whether Jesus had one will or two. He didn't outline anything that resembled the Definition of Chalcedon. All he had was helplessness, and hope in the Healer. And Jesus, seeing his faith, forgave him. Just like that.

Picture a woman weeping at a dinner party, washing Jesus' feet with her tears and hair. The room recoilsisn't He aware of what she is? But Jesus looks at her, not with disgust, but with divine tenderness. "Your sins are forgiven." Did she articulate precise Christology? No. She just loved much.

Zacchaeus, a tax collector in a tree, couldn't parse the theological details of the hypostatic union. But he scrambled like a child just to catch a glimpse of Christ. And when Jesus dined with him, Zacchaeus didn't quote the theological traditions of his forefathershe just repented of his past sins and gave generously to the poor. And Jesus said, "Today, salvation has come to this house."

None of these people had the kind of systematic theology you and I might take for granted. But they had something better: desperate, clumsy, wide-eyed faith. The kind that crawls to Christ when it can't stand. The kind that weeps when words run out.

St. John Chrysostom talks about the thief on the cross, and Christ's promise of Paradise, "addressing a thief who knew nothing of difficult teaching."

This isn't lowering the bar. This is lifting our eyes away from ivory towers and onto the torn, forgiving hands of Christ.

The thief on the cross didn't take a Christology class. He just said, "Lord, remember me in your kingdom." And Jesus said, "You shall be with me in Paradise." That's the scandal of grace. It's not that doctrine doesn't matterit's that grace doesn't wait for our vocabulary to catch up.

Jesus is the heart surgeon. He doesn't quiz you on anatomy before the transplant. You don't need to know how to explain His divinity before He saves you. All you have to do is be still, trust the hands holding the scalpel, and let Him operate.

Truth matters. Doctrine matters. But the Shepherd isn't waiting for you to pass an exam. He's looking for the bruised, the broken, and the hopeful. So even if your theology limpsgrace still runs.

2025 Fr. Joseph Gleason
Rostov Veliky, Russia

---

It sounds like he's saying salvation by faith alone. And all this talk of salvation by grace.... but at what point, though, does it turn from grace into a matter of personal performance (taking up one's cross, sacraments) being a part of the "process"? Because that's the view that's being espoused by you and many others here - two competing concepts (grace and works) in the same breath. It just isn't tenable. How does this work?

---

Salvation is by grace through faith. Works don't save anyone but they demonstrate the reality of it. One only needs to read the New Testament prayerfully. The gospel of John and Romans are good place to start followed by James. And James does not contradict Paul or the teachings of Christ. He complements them.

---

James was written to Jews who still observed the Law, which is why it is legalistic.

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Do you know of a source that might indicate the percentage that return within say about 5 years?
I have been away on vacation where internet is not good. I hope to get back to the discussion I left hanging withing a day or two, so I can learn a bit more about the topics we were on.

---

According to Barna, 17% or so return after having kids.

Enjoy your vacation!

---

Ouch! I'm not sure it's getting any better; especially with other research revealing a declining faith; however perhaps other, similar research is being done, including why they came back. We might be able to use that in our evangelistic efforts.

I know when I was at Baylor, the first semester I observed several who reduced &/or stopped attending church; however, sometime during the second semester I noticed that some started back up, and some others during their sophomore year. Most moved off campus by the end of their sophomore year.

---

What is awesome is the total collapse in number of mosques in Iran

---

What's going on with that? And what is the cause?

---

Secularism meets most people dont want to walk
Around in a bed sheet and blow up Innocent people in the name of their god

---

Radical Muslims do

---

You bet they do

James is filled with wisdom that is relevant today.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

---

OSAS is Biblical. To believe that you can lose your Salvation is to work for your Salvation. You cannot work for your Salvation. It's by God's Grace through Faith alone. I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works". That's when I knew that I couldn't join that church. I strongly urge you to pray to the Lord about what I just said. I am not trying to judge you and I sincerely wish you well. I truly hope that our Lord os as lienient as possible in these matters.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

---

OSAS is Biblical. To believe that you can lose your Salvation is to work for your Salvation. You cannot work for your Salvation. It's by God's Grace through Faith alone. I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works". That's when I knew that I couldn't join that church. I strongly urge you to pray to the Lord about what I just said. I am not trying to judge you and I sincerely wish you well. I truly hope that our Lord os as lienient as possible in these matters.

---

Thats an opinion and for those that buy into it i pray it all works out. Never was a belief for 1500 years and never was a belief of Catholicism for the orthodox before they split in 1054.

Theres also those that believe Peter wasnt the Rock Jesus Spoke of. Many people believe many things. Some may or may not affect their eternal
Salvation. Only God knows.

Happy 4th of July All!

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

---

OSAS is Biblical. To believe that you can lose your Salvation is to work for your Salvation. You cannot work for your Salvation. It's by God's Grace through Faith alone. I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works". That's when I knew that I couldn't join that church. I strongly urge you to pray to the Lord about what I just said. I am not trying to judge you and I sincerely wish you well. I truly hope that our Lord os as lienient as possible in these matters.

---

Thats an opinion and for those that buy into it i pray it all works out. Never was a belief for 1500 years and never was a belief of Catholicism for the orthodox before they split in 1054.

Theres also those that believe Peter wasnt the Rock Jesus Spoke of. Many people believe many things. Some may or may not affect their eternal
Salvation. Only God knows.

---

Isn't it interesting that everybody thinks that their beliefs go back farther than everybody else's. Look the fact is that you have to go through scripture to find out what is true and what is not. The apostles or the earliest teachers not the church. And it's the apostles writings that are inspired of God not the church writings.

Of course Peter was not the rock Christ was. Communion, church, baptism, good works, have nothing to do with salvation.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

---

OSAS is Biblical. To believe that you can lose your Salvation is to work for your Salvation. You cannot work for your Salvation. It's by God's Grace through Faith alone. I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works". That's when I knew that I couldn't join that church. I strongly urge you to pray to the Lord about what I just said. I am not trying to judge you and I sincerely wish you well. I truly hope that our Lord os as lienient as possible in these matters.

---

Thats an opinion and for those that buy into it i pray it all works out. Never was a belief for 1500 years and never was a belief of Catholicism for the orthodox before they split in 1054.

Theres also those that believe Peter wasnt the Rock Jesus Spoke of. Many people believe many things. Some may or may not affect their eternal
Salvation. Only God knows.

---

Isn't it interesting that everybody thinks that their beliefs go back farther than everybody else's. Look the fact is that you have to go through scripture to find out what is true and what is not. The apostles or the earliest teachers not the church. And it's the apostles writings that are inspired of God not the church writings.

Of course Peter was not the rock Christ was. Communion, church, baptism, good works, have nothing to do with salvation.

---

Well sure. You could have a thought tomorrow that hasnt existed and invent a 45,001th version of Christianity.

The point is that if it wasnt taught by Christ or those the holy spirit sent out, what would possibly make that new discovery 1500+ years later legitimate? And whats to be done with all those souls that believed incorrectly for centuries? How unfair to them they didnt have this revelation.

Christ called himself the rock when he named peter the rock?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith without works (hes not saying works of the 613 mosaic laws) is dead and 20+ other passages Ive and others have posted and many more commanding us to do things to obey God.

Osas is the highest stakes gamble available to humanity. Hope it works out for those that adhere to it

I and mine will continue to adhere as best we can to the other passages and let God's grace work through us.

---

OSAS is Biblical. To believe that you can lose your Salvation is to work for your Salvation. You cannot work for your Salvation. It's by God's Grace through Faith alone. I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works". That's when I knew that I couldn't join that church. I strongly urge you to pray to the Lord about what I just said. I am not trying to judge you and I sincerely wish you well. I truly hope that our Lord os as lienient as possible in these matters.

---

Thats an opinion and for those that buy into it i pray it all works out. Never was a belief for 1500 years and never was a belief of Catholicism for the orthodox before they split in 1054.

Theres also those that believe Peter wasnt the Rock Jesus Spoke of. Many people believe many things. Some may or may not affect their eternal
Salvation. Only God knows.

---

Isn't it interesting that everybody thinks that their beliefs go back farther than everybody else's. Look the fact is that you have to go through scripture to find out what is true and what is not. The apostles or the earliest teachers not the church. And it's the apostles writings that are inspired of God not the church writings.

Of course Peter was not the rock Christ was. Communion, church, baptism, good works, have nothing to do with salvation.

---

Well sure. You could have a thought tomorrow that hasnt existed and invent a 45,001th version of Christianity.

The point is that if it wasnt taught by Christ or those the holy spirit sent out, what would possibly make that new discovery 1500+ years later legitimate? And whats to be done with all those souls that believed incorrectly for centuries? How unfair to them they didnt have this revelation.

Christ called himself the rock when he named peter the rock?

---

The Bible specifically says that there were already false teachers in the days of the Apostles. How did they know that they were false? Because they went against the Teachings of the Apostles, including Paul.

Jesus said Peter's name means "A Rock" and then He said upon THIS rock, I will build me Church. JESUS was speaking of Himself, not Peter.

You can know this by the other references of Jesus being rejected.

Psalm 118:22 KJV

[22] The stone which the builders refused Is become the head stone of the corner.

Acts 4:11-12 KJV
[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Ephesians 2:20 KJV
[20] and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Quote:

---

I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works"

---

Some famous people who have taken this approach to discovering truth: Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Joel Osteen, Mohammed...

Seriously. Please don't do this. It opens you up to all sorts of demonic deception.

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."
(2nd Thessalonians 2:15)

Note: this is absolutely not an endorsement of charismatic or pentecostal teaching.

Also the term "lose your salvation" is a bit of a misnomer. Nobody misplaces their salvation like they do car keys. What this is describing is John 6:66 (interesring chapter and verse number):

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

These were legitimate disciples who, upon hearing Christ first give the doctrine of the Eucharist during his discourse at the synagogue in Capernaum, turned his back on Him and left.

That is what losing salvation looks like, documented in the Bible. Changing your mind and walking away from it. Doesn't mean you were never a legitimate disciple. Doesn't mean you are still a disciple but backsliding. It means having become a disciple, you change your mind, stop running the race, put down your cross and walk away.

That is why the historic understanding of the faith is salvation is a process: I was saved in the past by my acceptance of Christ, becoming reconciled to God, and becoming His disciple. I am being saved today as I obey Him and carry my cross. I will be saved in the future when my body falls asleep in Christ and I depart earth to be with Him in heaven.

Quote:

---

James was written to Jews who still observed the Law, which is why it is legalistic

---

This makes no sense, because parts of James are specifically a critique of those who claim fruitless faith is saving faith. Other epistles (and all the gospels) better fit that description.

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

James was written to Jews who still observed the Law, which is why it is legalistic

---

This makes no sense, because parts of James are specifically a critique of those who claim fruitless faith is saving faith. Other epistles (and all the gospels) better fit that description.

---

Those under Law still had to have faith, so James does explain how that those who have true faith, act on that faith. True faith is believing God to the point of submisdion to His will. It produces works, because of belief, but works do not save.

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

---

There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

I asked God about joining a Charismatic Church that teaches the "You can lose your Salvation" Doctrine. In my Spirit, I heard Him say "They are serving through the Law of Works"

---

Also the term "lose your salvation" is a bit of a misnomer. Nobody misplaces their salvation like they do car keys. What this is describing is John 6:66 (interesring chapter and verse number):

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

These were legitimate disciples who, upon hearing Christ first give the doctrine of the Eucharist during his discourse at the synagogue in Capernaum, turned his back on Him and left.

That is what losing salvation looks like, documented in the Bible. Changing your mind and walking away from it. Doesn't mean you were never a legitimate disciple. Doesn't mean you are still a disciple but backsliding. It means having become a disciple, you change your mind, stop running the race, put down your cross and walk away.

That is why the historic understanding of the faith is salvation is a process: I was saved in the past by my acceptance of Christ, becoming reconciled to God, and becoming His disciple. I am being saved today as I obey Him and carry my cross. I will be saved in the future when my body falls asleep in Christ and I depart earth to be with Him in heaven.

---

One needs to also read the preceding verses of John 6:66 - "But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" The ones wallking away from Jesus were likely the ones who never truly believed. They didn't have any salvation to lose.

Even if you want to view salvation as a "process", the key question here isn't whether every believer must "complete the process" in order to be saved, but rather, whether every true believer is already sealed/predestined to complete it. In other words, "once saved, the salvation process will be completed, thus once saved, always saved". That would be completely in line with the apostle Paul's teaching that once a person believes, the Holy Spirit enters them and is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of their salvation (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). And also completely in line with Paul's view in Romans 8 - "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

In addition, it's completely in line with Jesus' claim, also in John chapter 6: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." If you're gonna say that the disciples who left Jesus were true believers who stopped believing, then you have to say that Jesus' claim here is false, or that God's will was thwarted.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

---

There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

---

I'd like to remind everyone of what exactly this person curtpenn considers to be a "Pharisee" -

He considers it being a "Pharisee" if you believe that Christians should only put their salvation in the hands of JESUS, instead of others like Mary. Yes, it's documented in this thread.

That is pure evil, foks. And so consider why he so strongly opposes me and what I'm saying. Consider the source. And the others who "liked" his comment is likely in the same boat guided by the same spirit.

Perhaps it is the "spirit " of the Pharisee that, at least to some, you appear to represent so well and take so personally. Your motives may be honorable, however, your outward expression may not be perceived as such. There are those who have the gift of persuasion, some with teaching, others with dealing in conflict, etc., which implies some of us, including myself, don't.

Hope you all had a good 4th of July weekend

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is the "spirit " of the Pharisee that, at least to some, you appear to represent so well and take so personally. Your motives may be honorable, however, your outward expression may not be perceived as such. There are those who have the gift of persuasion, some with teaching, others with dealing in conflict, etc., which implies some of us, including myself, don't.

---

Give me an example of where my expression is in the spirit of the Pharisee. I have requested this from every person who's accused me of being a "Pharisee", and I've never gotten answer. All I have done is argue for what I believe to be true and support it logically and factually. I am willing to bet that you and others perceive it that way because it's a defense mechanism - your beliefs are being effectively challenged, and so you are seeking ad hominem as a relief, and as an excuse to not have to deal with what I'm saying. Others have chosen to "block" me as a defense mechanism (denial). Curtpenn just wants to attack me with vitriol and hate. This has been the pattern here over and over and over again - grown up people acting like adolescents. Can't ANY of you deal with me and what I'm saying with honesty and good faith? Do any of you really think that calling me a "Pharisee" erases any of the problems with your beliefs that I have brought up? I am absolutely amazed not just by how bad some people gaslight others, but also by how much many will gaslight themselves.

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is the "spirit " of the Pharisee that, at least to some, you appear to represent so well and take so personally. Your motives may be honorable, however, your outward expression may not be perceived as such. There are those who have the gift of persuasion, some with teaching, others with dealing in conflict, etc., which implies some of us, including myself, don't.

---

I would settle for others to simply have the gift of answering questions and engaging the point directly without playing games. A rare gift here, it often seems. We don't need to persuade others here, we need to just present the truth, in good faith, and let whoever gets persuaded by it to get persuaded by it, and whoever won't, won't. Calling someone a "Pharisee" is just a cop out, a defense mechanism. And for the record, I don't take any of it personally. Like I've been saying, if you're calling me a "Pharisee", it isn't about me, it's about you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Even if you want to view salvation as a "process", the key question here isn't whether every believer must "complete the process" in order to be saved

---

Every believer must "complete the process" as it works itself out in that individual's life. There is no specific length of time, nor formula. Saint Dismas' only fruit was his profession of faith as he was baptized in his own blood and died on the cross next to Christ in a matter of hours. Other Christians serve God for decades before their earthly bodies fall asleep in Christ.

Matthew 20:1-15 addresses this.

Quote:

---

but rather, whether every true believer is already sealed/predestined to complete it. In other words, "once saved, the salvation process will be completed, thus once saved, always saved". That would be completely in line with the apostle Paul's teaching that once a person believes, the Holy Spirit enters them and is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of their salvation (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). And also completely in line with Paul's view in Romans 8 - "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

---

There is no such thing as a "true believer". That's a construct made necessary by the event salvation, OSAS heresy. There are believers, and there are unbelievers. Sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. There is no special organic wheat in the Kingdom of God. If you want to make the case that the elect are only those who complete their races, I suppose you could make that case. I don't really know what benefit that is though, as it is analysis through hindsight.

Quote:

---

In addition, it's completely in line with Jesus' claim, also in John chapter 6: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." If you're gonna say that the disciples who left Jesus were true believers who stopped believing, then you have to say that Jesus' claim here is false, or that God's will was thwarted.

---

No, Jesus doesn't lose anything. But we've already seen that disciples can walk away and forefeit their salvation. If you forefeit a game, you haven't lost it. You've just decided not to play.

Thank you. I went back and read a couple of these again, especially the one about a "true believer", causing me to compare your thoughts with mine, which are similar.

Faith is believing God to the point of submission to His will in your life, a reliance on Him.

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Even if you want to view salvation as a "process", the key question here isn't whether every believer must "complete the process" in order to be saved

---

Every believer must "complete the process" as it works itself out in that individual's life. There is no specific length of time, nor formula. Saint Dismas' only fruit was his profession of faith as he was baptized in his own blood and died on the cross next to Christ in a matter of hours. Other Christians serve God for decades before their earthly bodies fall asleep in Christ.

Matthew 20:1-15 addresses this.

Quote:

---

but rather, whether every true believer is already sealed/predestined to complete it. In other words, "once saved, the salvation process will be completed, thus once saved, always saved". That would be completely in line with the apostle Paul's teaching that once a person believes, the Holy Spirit enters them and is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of their salvation (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). And also completely in line with Paul's view in Romans 8 - "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

---

There is no such thing as a "true believer". That's a construct made necessary by the event salvation, OSAS heresy. There are believers, and there are unbelievers. Sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. There is no special organic wheat in the Kingdom of God. If you want to make the case that the elect are only those who complete their races, I suppose you could make that case. I don't really know what benefit that is though, as it is analysis through hindsight.

Quote:

---

In addition, it's completely in line with Jesus' claim, also in John chapter 6: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." If you're gonna say that the disciples who left Jesus were true believers who stopped believing, then you have to say that Jesus' claim here is false, or that God's will was thwarted.

---

No, Jesus doesn't lose anything. But we've already seen that disciples can walk away and forefeit their salvation. If you forefeit a game, you haven't lost it. You've just decided not to play.

---

If salvation is a "process" which must be completed, otherwise salvation is not attained, then there exists a point where the process is NOT completed, at which point if the person were to die, then they would not be saved, even as they have faith in Jesus. This idea is completely counter to the biblical teaching on salvation. How could Paul ever state that the Holy Spirit, received upon faith in Jesus, is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation, if it's possible for someone to not complete the "process"? How could John declare that we can KNOW we are saved, it he has no idea whether each person has completed or will complete their "process"? How can Jesus himself repeatedly declare that whosoever believes in him, has eternal life, if a person can believe in him yet still fail in the "process", thus not get eternal life? You're view is problematic regarding these points, yet you don't show any desire to even address them. Your entire reply completely dodged it.

A "true believer" is someone who truly believes, not someone who merely professes belief. This distinction has to be made, because many of you are conflating these two in order to make your argument.

If the disciples who walked away from Jesus had actually been true believers who then later stopped believing, then it would most certainly be a case where Jesus was given something by the Father, and then lost it.

If you've "decided not to play", that means you were never a true believer to begin with. So you're not describing someone who was a believer and then fell away. Thus you're not making any point against what I'm saying.

It needs to be said again:

Many of you ultimately see salvation like this: "I need to do/be good so that I might be saved".

When the biblical view on salvation is more like this: "I need to do/be good because I am saved".

The former is relying upon one's own work as a way to "prove" oneself, or to "earn" or be "deserving" of salvation (as a wage). The latter is relying upon the completed work of Jesus and the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to us, as a free gift.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Even if you want to view salvation as a "process", the key question here isn't whether every believer must "complete the process" in order to be saved

---

Every believer must "complete the process" as it works itself out in that individual's life. There is no specific length of time, nor formula. Saint Dismas' only fruit was his profession of faith as he was baptized in his own blood and died on the cross next to Christ in a matter of hours. Other Christians serve God for decades before their earthly bodies fall asleep in Christ.

Matthew 20:1-15 addresses this.

Quote:

---

but rather, whether every true believer is already sealed/predestined to complete it. In other words, "once saved, the salvation process will be completed, thus once saved, always saved". That would be completely in line with the apostle Paul's teaching that once a person believes, the Holy Spirit enters them and is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of their salvation (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). And also completely in line with Paul's view in Romans 8 - "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

---

There is no such thing as a "true believer". That's a construct made necessary by the event salvation, OSAS heresy. There are believers, and there are unbelievers. Sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. There is no special organic wheat in the Kingdom of God. If you want to make the case that the elect are only those who complete their races, I suppose you could make that case. I don't really know what benefit that is though, as it is analysis through hindsight.

Quote:

---

In addition, it's completely in line with Jesus' claim, also in John chapter 6: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." If you're gonna say that the disciples who left Jesus were true believers who stopped believing, then you have to say that Jesus' claim here is false, or that God's will was thwarted.

---

No, Jesus doesn't lose anything. But we've already seen that disciples can walk away and forefeit their salvation. If you forefeit a game, you haven't lost it. You've just decided not to play.

---

If salvation is a "process" which must be completed, otherwise salvation is not attained, then there exists a point where the process is NOT completed, at which point if the person were to die, then they would not be saved, even as they have faith in Jesus.

---

Incorrect.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It needs to be said again:

Many of you ultimately see salvation like this: "I need to do/be good so that I might be saved".

When the biblical view on salvation is more like this: "I need to do/be good because I am saved".

---

That's not it at all. We see salvation as "if I am to be saved, I must pick up my cross, follow Christ, and serve Him."

"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
1 John 2:28

Your position is if at one point in your life you walked an aisle, said an incantation, and felt like you meant it you are saved, period. You try and convert people to a religion of unconditional confidence while the scripture clearly states that any confidence the believer has is conditional.

That is why your modernist version of Christianity has created a couple of generations of man (really woman, men are checking out of evangelicalism) pleasers in the pulpits and people with a false assurance of salvation in the pews.

As far as the disciples who left Christ, note the word that the scripture uses to describe them. Disciples. Not false disciples, not DINOs, not false professors.

There is so much in scripture that is right in front of your eyes that you refuse to see to try and cling to your OSAS easy believism religion it is sad.

Do I hope I am saved? Of course. Do I *know* I am saved? Of course not. Thay would be the height of arrogance before God. I have no idea what tomorrow holds, and whether my faith can weather those things with the steadfastness of Job. I do hope it can, 1st Corinthians 10:13, but in the end all we can do is stand in front of Christ as the Publican and say, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." He is the righteous Almighty, and He shall judge each of us as He sees fit, and those judgements shall be correct.