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How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
Perhaps not, as, in my opinion,he presents a good argument as to how some may interpret this concept.
Would anyone care to present any other option?
Would anyone care to present any other option?
Did the Church say that she is the ONLY holy one?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
So, let's be absolutely clear.... you believe and affirm that Mary is the All Holy One??
THE ALL HOLY ONE??
And as a professed believer and worshiper of GOD, you truly don't see anything wrong with that?
Are you truly this blind, stupid, and foolish??!!
My last statement said it all:
The Church does not call Mary "the Holy One" in the way it refers to Jesus. When referencing titles like "All-Holy" for Mary, the Church is emphasizing her unique sanctity and role within salvation history.
She is the Holiest Human person to ever walk the Earth.
This is a disgusting and ridiculous comparison that I won't dignify with a response.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Planned Parenthood: "I've told you to provide what we ourselves say murder is. You'll see by our own definition, we are not murdering babies."
The saddest thing is watching someone gaslight themselves like this. One thing I've learned from talking with you Catholics, is that the human mind will do ANYTHING it can to justifiy what it WANTS to believe, even if the contrary is literally screaming in their faces. You would say 1+1 is 3 if your beliefs depended on it.
Sadly, I knew when I posted that paragraph from the CCC, you would completely overlook the context and meaning.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
1. Adoration, in prayerful praise, thanksgiving, and reverence - HOW IS THIS NOT WHAT YOU DO TO MARY?? I've demonstrated this over, and over, and over....
Here it is again:
**Adoration**: Worship involves adoration, which is the first act of acknowledging God as Creator and Savior. Adoration is expressed in prayerful praise, thanksgiving, and reverence. (CCC 2096)
Human culture is replete with books, songs, movies, etc. of praise, thanksgiving, and reverence toward people, places, and/or events. The paragraph stated that it is about acknowledging God as Creator and Savior.
Catholics know that Mary is NOT God.
The Bible talks about others having sovereignty and lording over others. No one mistakes them as God.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2. Acknowledgement of Mary's sovereignty and "lordship", even over creation- YOUR PRAYERS CALL HER "SOVEREIGN". Your prayers say she is the "ruler of my house", "our hope and refuge", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "GOD OF THIS WORLD", and say that you "place [your] salvation in her hands". Your psalms of her take the Psalms from the Old Testament, and remove God and Jesus and replace them with Mary. In those psalms, MARY is the dispenser of grace and mercy. And you call her "THE ALL HOLY ONE".
Just like Catholics don' t mistake nor worship Mary as God.
I feel like you are so hell-bent on proving to others that you are right, you fail to try to understand the other point of view.
God Bless.
This is silly.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Only a complete fool, bewitched by Satan can't see that all this, along with your praying and bowing to her statue, singing hymns to her in church, holding numerous festivals for her throughout the year, etc is pure worship. Watching you deny this is like watching a husband who was caught cheating on his wife, but tries to semantically get out of it, saying "kissing her, having sex with her, spending all my time talking to her and thinking about her - that's not cheating on you, that's just hyper-friendship!"
Adultery is a mortal sin and has no levels of gradation. Honor has many levels of gradation.
Do you really think that Jesus gets upset when we honor his Mother? You must have a low opinion of Jesus.
Sadly, again, I, and others have explained this to you (many times). You don't want to get it and you certainly don't want to accept it. I can't help you. I can only pray for you.
To my other non-Catholic friends on this post, I'll repeat this
We do NOT worship Mary. We know that Mary is NOT God.
I unashamedly admit that the Church does use flowery, poetic, and even confusing language when talking about Mary. It has to be understood in context.
We absolutely hold festivals and feast days honoring her. This is not slighting Jesus. He is happy when we honor His Mom.
Several years ago, my mom was surprised when her town, Jacksonville, TX honored her for her outstanding achievement and leadership in the charity work that she had done for many years in the community. They held a huge dinner for her at the country club. My sister and her weren't jealous of her. We were happy and proud of her. In the same way, Jesus is happy when we honor His Mom.
Honoring her is honoring Jesus, because He is the reason why she's so great.
It doesn't diminish our love for Jesus. On the contrary, our appreciation of Mary glorifies Jesus.
Luke even tells us this in 1:46
"My soul doth magnify the Lord"
Catholics fully understand that Mary shines BECAUSE of Jesus. Why does the Moon shine so bright? Because of the Sun. Why does Mary shine so bright? Because of her Son.
Again for my non-Catholic friends here, please look into a few of the apparitions of Mary that have lead to 1000's of healings and miracles thru her intercession. Here are a few links for your honest review.
Our Lady of Lourdes (Lourdes, France, 1858)
Our Lady of Guadalupe (Mexico City, Mexico, 1531)
Our Lady of Ftima (Ftima, Portugal, 1917)
Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal (Paris, France, 1830)
Our Lady of Kibeho (Kibeho, Rwanda, 1981-1989)
Finally, if anyone has any questions, concerns, or even push-back on this, please feel free to PM me and I'm happy to better discuss your concerns. No honest question is off-limits.
God Bless
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
So, let's be absolutely clear.... you believe and affirm that Mary is the All Holy One??
THE ALL HOLY ONE??
And as a professed believer and worshiper of GOD, you truly don't see anything wrong with that?
Are you truly this blind, stupid, and foolish??!!
Did the Church say that she is the ONLY holy one?
My last statement said it all:
The Church does not call Mary "the Holy One" in the way it refers to Jesus. When referencing titles like "All-Holy" for Mary, the Church is emphasizing her unique sanctity and role within salvation history.
She is the Holiest Human person to ever walk the Earth.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Planned Parenthood: "I've told you to provide what we ourselves say murder is. You'll see by our own definition, we are not murdering babies."
The saddest thing is watching someone gaslight themselves like this. One thing I've learned from talking with you Catholics, is that the human mind will do ANYTHING it can to justifiy what it WANTS to believe, even if the contrary is literally screaming in their faces. You would say 1+1 is 3 if your beliefs depended on it.
This is a disgusting and ridiculous comparison that I won't dignify with a response.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
1. Adoration, in prayerful praise, thanksgiving, and reverence - HOW IS THIS NOT WHAT YOU DO TO MARY?? I've demonstrated this over, and over, and over....
Sadly, I knew when I posted that paragraph from the CCC, you would completely overlook the context and meaning.
Here it is again:
**Adoration**: Worship involves adoration, which is the first act of acknowledging God as Creator and Savior. Adoration is expressed in prayerful praise, thanksgiving, and reverence. (CCC 2096)
Human culture is replete with books, songs, movies, etc. of praise, thanksgiving, and reverence toward people, places, and/or events. The paragraph stated that it is about acknowledging God as Creator and Savior.
Catholics know that Mary is NOT God.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2. Acknowledgement of Mary's sovereignty and "lordship", even over creation- YOUR PRAYERS CALL HER "SOVEREIGN". Your prayers say she is the "ruler of my house", "our hope and refuge", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "GOD OF THIS WORLD", and say that you "place [your] salvation in her hands". Your psalms of her take the Psalms from the Old Testament, and remove God and Jesus and replace them with Mary. In those psalms, MARY is the dispenser of grace and mercy. And you call her "THE ALL HOLY ONE".
The Bible talks about others having sovereignty and lording over others. No one mistakes them as God.
Just like Catholics don' t mistake nor worship Mary as God.
I feel like you are so hell-bent on proving to others that you are right, you fail to try to understand the other point of view.
God Bless.
It will never cease to be astonishing, how professed Christians can possibly think that it's okay to call a created being "THE ALL HOLY ONE". Watching you twist yourself to justify it is simply unbelievable. To even DARE calling anyone but God that, is just a bridge that true Christians do not cross, and it is clearly evident as to why you're doing it - Mary is your God. You can deny this with your mouth in front of God all you want, but your heart and your actions speak otherwise. There just isn't ANY reason to even cross that line, not even come CLOSE to it, if you truly love God. This is pretty much checkmate. I say without any reservation whatsoever that if you can not see that this is pure EVIL, then you are NOT a Christian. PERIOD.
The comparison to Planned Parenthood is apt. They severely limit the definitions of "human life" and "murder" in order to get around the fact that it is exactly what they're doing. You're doing the exact same thing with the concept of "worship". You don't have to be saying someone is "God" in order to be worshiping them. You don't have to consider something as "Creator" or "Savior" to be worshiping them. The Roman Catholic Church is merely creating a very narrow definition of worship to get around the idolatry. It's pure semantics, and the belief that any of this fools God is utterly laughable. Again, it will never cease to astonish me how you have gaslit yourself in buying into all this.
Think about what you're saying - you're saying that someone can "adore", let's say Baal, by bowing to, praying to, and kissing his statue, while also singing songs to him and holding festivals for him, and by calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", and "THE ALL HOLY ONE"..... but as long as one does not "adore" him as "Creator" or "Savior", then it isn't worship??!! Does this even remotely make any sense??
Nope.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It will never cease to be astonishing, how professed Christians can possibly think that it's okay to call a created being "THE ALL HOLY ONE". Watching you twist yourself to justify it is simply unbelievable. To even DARE calling anyone but God that, is just a bridge that true Christians do not cross, and it is clearly evident as to why you're doing it - Mary is your God. You can deny this with your mouth in front of God all you want, but your heart and your actions speak otherwise. There just isn't ANY reason to even cross that line, not even come CLOSE to it, if you truly love God. This is pretty much checkmate. I say without any reservation whatsoever that if you can not see that this is pure EVIL, then you are NOT a Christian. PERIOD.
The comparison to Planned Parenthood is apt. They severely limit the definitions of "human life" and "murder" in order to get around the fact that it is exactly what they're doing. You're doing the exact same thing with the concept of "worship". You don't have to be saying someone is "God" in order to be worshiping them. You don't have to consider something as "Creator" or "Savior" to be worshiping them. The Roman Catholic Church is merely creating a very narrow definition of worship to get around the idolatry. It's pure semantics, and the belief that any of this fools God is utterly laughable. Again, it will never cease to astonish me how you have gaslit yourself in buying into all this.
Think about what you're saying - you're saying that someone can "adore", let's say Baal, by bowing to, praying to, and kissing his statue, while also singing songs to him and holding festivals for him, and by calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", and "THE ALL HOLY ONE"..... but as long as one does not "adore" him as "Creator" or "Savior", then it isn't worship??!! Does this even remotely make any sense??
You choose to not understand. We've explained (many times) and you don't want to listen and you obviously don't understand what true worship is.
All the Catholics on this post fully understand the difference. Heck, I'd dare say that some of the non-Catholics understand the difference at this point.
At this impasse, all we can do is to agree to disagree. I hope that exchange doesn't stop you for loving Mary. She's our mother. We should all love her.
Peace.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
Keep praying! Include in them that he will seek help
Perhaps, if he would, then he would be more persuasive via a more civil tone, and his views may be taken more seriously
Perhaps, if he would, then he would be more persuasive via a more civil tone, and his views may be taken more seriously
I'm not trying to call you out, but we've discussed this before.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
1) this is not what the book of life is, or what it's for. The book of life contains the names of all who are saved to eternal life. If your name is in there, you have eternal life. Period. There is no judgment of your works listed in there to determine your salvation. In fact, Jesus made that clear in John 5:24 - "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
You are misinterpreting the word "judged" in this passage. The Greek here, "krisis" which means "condemnation." The passage is saying that believers will not be CONDEMNED.
The Wycliff bible used the translation: "and cometh not into doom"
The translation in the KJV and authorized KJV say, "shall not come into condemnation"
The Bible is VERY clear that everyone is getting judged.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - "all believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive what is due for their actions in life, whether good or bad."
1 Cor 3:11-15 discusses that works will be tested by fire.
Your misunderstanding/misinterpreting is leading to your confused soteriology.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
In my case, I believe the following and acknowledge that our Holy Father created the Universe and everything in it. The magnificence of His creation is beyond our comprehension with its spectacular beauty and how everything is coordinated together in perfection. I Praise Him, and Glorify His power over all and His ultimate control over the master plan of all life.
I give thanks for God's many blessings and gifts, especially the gift of His Loving Son Jesus, who was given to teach us righteous ways and then to die on the Cross to take on our sins so that we could reach salvation and eternal life in God's Kingdom he will establish on earth. That makes Jesus my Lord and Savior.
I have confessed my many sins that I regret, and have asked as an undeserving wretch for forgiveness from a loving God for those sins. Lastly, I have turned my life over to Jesus Christ as I give Him all the glory.
If I maintain my faith, my belief, my sincerity in all these things, I hope to have Jesus as my advocate on judgement day. I Pray so each and every day.
Just what I think it takes to get to Heaven. And I Pray we all reach eternity together. Everyone of us.
I give thanks for God's many blessings and gifts, especially the gift of His Loving Son Jesus, who was given to teach us righteous ways and then to die on the Cross to take on our sins so that we could reach salvation and eternal life in God's Kingdom he will establish on earth. That makes Jesus my Lord and Savior.
I have confessed my many sins that I regret, and have asked as an undeserving wretch for forgiveness from a loving God for those sins. Lastly, I have turned my life over to Jesus Christ as I give Him all the glory.
If I maintain my faith, my belief, my sincerity in all these things, I hope to have Jesus as my advocate on judgement day. I Pray so each and every day.
Just what I think it takes to get to Heaven. And I Pray we all reach eternity together. Everyone of us.
Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
1) this is not what the book of life is, or what it's for. The book of life contains the names of all who are saved to eternal life. If your name is in there, you have eternal life. Period. There is no judgment of your works listed in there to determine your salvation. In fact, Jesus made that clear in John 5:24 - "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
I'm not trying to call you out, but we've discussed this before.
You are misinterpreting the word "judged" in this passage. The Greek here, "krisis" which means "condemnation." The passage is saying that believers will not be CONDEMNED.
The Wycliff bible used the translation: "and cometh not into doom"
The translation in the KJV and authorized KJV say, "shall not come into condemnation"
The Bible is VERY clear that everyone is getting judged.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - "all believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive what is due for their actions in life, whether good or bad."
1 Cor 3:11-15 discusses that works will be tested by fire.
Your misunderstanding/misinterpreting is leading to your confused soteriology.
I'm not misinterpreting anything. I'm not saying that Jesus is saying that believers won't be judged AT ALL (believers' works will be judged to determine their rewards). I'm saying that Jesus is saying that believers will not be judged to determine their salvation. Reread it. This is completely consistent with the Greek - if believers will not be "condemned", it means they won't be sent to Hell, regardless of their works or lack thereof. This completely contradicts the view that if our works aren't up to par with our faith, that we won't be saved.
BUDOS said:
Keep praying! Include in them that he will seek help
Perhaps, if he would, then he would be more persuasive via a more civil tone, and his views may be taken more seriously
LOL.
ALL my views I'm writing are being taken seriously. Look at all the effort in replying.
You should probably give up this tactic.
curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It will never cease to be astonishing, how professed Christians can possibly think that it's okay to call a created being "THE ALL HOLY ONE". Watching you twist yourself to justify it is simply unbelievable. To even DARE calling anyone but God that, is just a bridge that true Christians do not cross, and it is clearly evident as to why you're doing it - Mary is your God. You can deny this with your mouth in front of God all you want, but your heart and your actions speak otherwise. There just isn't ANY reason to even cross that line, not even come CLOSE to it, if you truly love God. This is pretty much checkmate. I say without any reservation whatsoever that if you can not see that this is pure EVIL, then you are NOT a Christian. PERIOD.
The comparison to Planned Parenthood is apt. They severely limit the definitions of "human life" and "murder" in order to get around the fact that it is exactly what they're doing. You're doing the exact same thing with the concept of "worship". You don't have to be saying someone is "God" in order to be worshiping them. You don't have to consider something as "Creator" or "Savior" to be worshiping them. The Roman Catholic Church is merely creating a very narrow definition of worship to get around the idolatry. It's pure semantics, and the belief that any of this fools God is utterly laughable. Again, it will never cease to astonish me how you have gaslit yourself in buying into all this.
Think about what you're saying - you're saying that someone can "adore", let's say Baal, by bowing to, praying to, and kissing his statue, while also singing songs to him and holding festivals for him, and by calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", and "THE ALL HOLY ONE"..... but as long as one does not "adore" him as "Creator" or "Savior", then it isn't worship??!! Does this even remotely make any sense??
Nope.
You choose to not understand. We've explained (many times) and you don't want to listen and you obviously don't understand what true worship is.
All the Catholics on this post fully understand the difference. Heck, I'd dare say that some of the non-Catholics understand the difference at this point.
At this impasse, all we can do is to agree to disagree. I hope that exchange doesn't stop you for loving Mary. She's our mother. We should all love her.
Peace.
So then, answer the question - can I "adore" Baal, by praying to, bowing to, and kissing his statue, and sing songs to him in church, and keeping pictures and statues of him all over my house, and holding multiple festivals for him... and calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "our strength and our refuge", "salvation of the universe", and saying to him "I give you my heart and my soul" and "I place my salvation in your hands"... and say that he is THE ALL HOLY ONE....
and all of this is NOT WORSHIP, because I didn't adore him as "Creator" or "Savior"?? And so God would be okay with all that??
I think you've shown that you've lost all grip on reality.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
But believing Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE, is.
Do you believe it?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
That was BUDOS' view.
Do you believe Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
That was BUDOS' view.
Do you believe Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE?
His view was that salvation depends on what's written in the Book of Life. Catholics believe this also. I don't know anyone who believes there's any quota of good works that one must do.
I haven't heard the expression "all holy one" before, but I assume it refers to the Catholic belief that Mary was perfected in grace while on earth. Likewise all of us hope to be made perfect in heaven. It's essentially the same thing.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
That was BUDOS' view.
Do you believe Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE?
His view was that salvation depends on what's written in the Book of Life. Catholics believe this also. I don't know anyone who believes there's any quota of good works that one must do.
I haven't heard the expression "all holy one" before, but I assume it refers to the Catholic belief that Mary was perfected in grace while on earth. Likewise all of us hope to be made perfect in heaven. It's essentially the same thing.
His view was exactly what I said. You said that Catholics don't believe that. You clearly have not followed the discussion enough to be making declarations about it.
If your view is that one's works plays a part in obtaining one's salvation, then it follows that a certain "quota" or cutoff point must exist, whether you acknowledge that or not. It's the logical consequence of this view.
Mary as "THE ALL HOLY ONE" is straight from your catechism. Being perfected in grace doesn't make anyone The All Holy One. When we go to heaven and are perfected, we aren't going to be The All Holy One either. Do you not recognize who THE ALL HOLY ONE is?? My God - what is missing in Roman Catholic's minds, that makes them completely unable to recognize the pure heresy and idolatry in calling anyone other than GOD that?
curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
How they "define" it doesn't necessarily indicate what they believe, say, and do. They will officially define it as being through Jesus.... but that to get to Jesus you go through Mary. I've shown you guys over and over and over all the problematic quotes/prayers/catechisms. If you didn't believe me then, what makes you think you'll believe me now? You'll just go through another round of your vitriolic hate. It's clear what the spirit is that's behind you. If you don't recognize the utter heresy, blasphemy, and idolatry in calling a created being like Mary THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you are from the Devil. Likewise if you defend it.
Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet
curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
Here are just a sample of the quotes I've given in this thread - Mary is called:
"peacemaker between sinners and God";
"salvation of the universe";
"O great Mediatress of peace between men and God";
Mary is asked, "grant that we may go to heaven"
"Mary throws open the door of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases"
"no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense)
"She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
"Mary's intercession is not only useful but necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
"Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)
..... and I can keep going and going. If you can't see from this sample that Roman Catholicism essentially teaches that salvation is in and through Mary, you are a complete fool. So how's my "straw man" looking now?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
That was BUDOS' view.
Do you believe Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE?
His view was that salvation depends on what's written in the Book of Life. Catholics believe this also. I don't know anyone who believes there's any quota of good works that one must do.
I haven't heard the expression "all holy one" before, but I assume it refers to the Catholic belief that Mary was perfected in grace while on earth. Likewise all of us hope to be made perfect in heaven. It's essentially the same thing.
His view was exactly what I said. You said that Catholics don't believe that. You clearly have not followed the discussion enough to be making declarations about it.
If your view is that one's works plays a part in obtaining one's salvation, then it follows that a certain "quota" or cutoff point must exist, whether you acknowledge that or not. It's the logical consequence of this view.
Mary as "THE ALL HOLY ONE" is straight from your catechism. Being perfected in grace doesn't make anyone The All Holy One. When we go to heaven and are perfected, we aren't going to be The All Holy One either. Do you not recognize who THE ALL HOLY ONE is?? My God - what is missing in Roman Catholic's minds, that makes them completely unable to recognize the pure heresy and idolatry in calling anyone other than GOD that?
It is most certainly not a Catholic belief or a logical consequence of our views.
curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
Here is more:
"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
2) this view, that one must have a certain amount of works (in the book of life) that reflect your faith in order to be saved, will ultimately cause believers to ask this question - "have I DONE enough to be saved?" - thus putting the focus and dependence on one's own merit and accomplishments for one's salvation rather than on the completed work of Jesus that has been credited to you as a free gift, that you received by faith. It is ultimately a works-based gospel. This would eliminate any assurance of salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches we can have (1 John 5:13). And it is a contrary (false) gospel to the one the apostle Paul preached.
100% correct.
Though I'm not sure it's very relevant since no one on this thread believes anything remotely like that.
It's exactly the belief that was stated.
The view was expressed that if a person's works in the book of life (which is not what that book will be used for) does not match their stated belief, then that person will "have issues". Whether you or others want to admit it or not, this view is clearly suggesting that one's works will play a role in qualifying one's faith for salvation. Thus, it would, in the minds of believers, ultimately place the focus on what one has to DO to validate their faith, which effectively is no different than saying the outcome of their salvation will be decided by their works. There can never be any assurance of salvation with this view, as there is no way to ever know what the "acceptable" level is where one's works adequately validates one's faith.
No, that is not an accurate statement of Catholic beliefs.
I didn't say these were Catholic beliefs. Please keep up.
Then to whom are you attributing them?
That was BUDOS' view.
Do you believe Mary is THE ALL HOLY ONE?
His view was that salvation depends on what's written in the Book of Life. Catholics believe this also. I don't know anyone who believes there's any quota of good works that one must do.
I haven't heard the expression "all holy one" before, but I assume it refers to the Catholic belief that Mary was perfected in grace while on earth. Likewise all of us hope to be made perfect in heaven. It's essentially the same thing.
His view was exactly what I said. You said that Catholics don't believe that. You clearly have not followed the discussion enough to be making declarations about it.
If your view is that one's works plays a part in obtaining one's salvation, then it follows that a certain "quota" or cutoff point must exist, whether you acknowledge that or not. It's the logical consequence of this view.
Mary as "THE ALL HOLY ONE" is straight from your catechism. Being perfected in grace doesn't make anyone The All Holy One. When we go to heaven and are perfected, we aren't going to be The All Holy One either. Do you not recognize who THE ALL HOLY ONE is?? My God - what is missing in Roman Catholic's minds, that makes them completely unable to recognize the pure heresy and idolatry in calling anyone other than GOD that?
It is most certainly not a Catholic belief or a logical consequence of our views.
Any time you add your works or performance to God's salvation (which Roman Catholicism surely does), then it necessarily follows that there exists a certain minimum level of your performance that is required for your salvation. The level can not be zero, and it can't be infinity. Therefore it is somewhere in between. This is just basic logic.
Is Baal a real person or an entity that people believe is God?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It will never cease to be astonishing, how professed Christians can possibly think that it's okay to call a created being "THE ALL HOLY ONE". Watching you twist yourself to justify it is simply unbelievable. To even DARE calling anyone but God that, is just a bridge that true Christians do not cross, and it is clearly evident as to why you're doing it - Mary is your God. You can deny this with your mouth in front of God all you want, but your heart and your actions speak otherwise. There just isn't ANY reason to even cross that line, not even come CLOSE to it, if you truly love God. This is pretty much checkmate. I say without any reservation whatsoever that if you can not see that this is pure EVIL, then you are NOT a Christian. PERIOD.
The comparison to Planned Parenthood is apt. They severely limit the definitions of "human life" and "murder" in order to get around the fact that it is exactly what they're doing. You're doing the exact same thing with the concept of "worship". You don't have to be saying someone is "God" in order to be worshiping them. You don't have to consider something as "Creator" or "Savior" to be worshiping them. The Roman Catholic Church is merely creating a very narrow definition of worship to get around the idolatry. It's pure semantics, and the belief that any of this fools God is utterly laughable. Again, it will never cease to astonish me how you have gaslit yourself in buying into all this.
Think about what you're saying - you're saying that someone can "adore", let's say Baal, by bowing to, praying to, and kissing his statue, while also singing songs to him and holding festivals for him, and by calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", and "THE ALL HOLY ONE"..... but as long as one does not "adore" him as "Creator" or "Savior", then it isn't worship??!! Does this even remotely make any sense??
Nope.
You choose to not understand. We've explained (many times) and you don't want to listen and you obviously don't understand what true worship is.
All the Catholics on this post fully understand the difference. Heck, I'd dare say that some of the non-Catholics understand the difference at this point.
At this impasse, all we can do is to agree to disagree. I hope that exchange doesn't stop you for loving Mary. She's our mother. We should all love her.
Peace.
So then, answer the question - can I "adore" Baal, by praying to, bowing to, and kissing his statue, and sing songs to him in church, and keeping pictures and statues of him all over my house, and holding multiple festivals for him... and calling him "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "our strength and our refuge", "salvation of the universe", and saying to him "I give you my heart and my soul" and "I place my salvation in your hands"... and say that he is THE ALL HOLY ONE....
and all of this is NOT WORSHIP, because I didn't adore him as "Creator" or "Savior"?? And so God would be okay with all that??
I think you've shown that you've lost all grip on reality.
So then a believer with a sex addiction, who comments serial adultery will not be judged and go straight to heaven?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
I'm not misinterpreting anything. I'm not saying that Jesus is saying that believers won't be judged AT ALL (believers' works will be judged to determine their rewards). I'm saying that Jesus is saying that believers will not be judged to determine their salvation. Reread it. This is completely consistent with the Greek - if believers will not be "condemned", it means they won't be sent to Hell, regardless of their works or lack thereof. This completely contradicts the view that if our works aren't up to par with our faith, that we won't be saved.
Or an ultra rich believer who uses people to make even more money will not be judged and they go straight to heaven?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
Here is more:
"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.
Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
How they "define" it doesn't necessarily indicate what they believe, say, and do. They will officially define it as being through Jesus.... but that to get to Jesus you go through Mary. I've shown you guys over and over and over all the problematic quotes/prayers/catechisms. If you didn't believe me then, what makes you think you'll believe me now? You'll just go through another round of your vitriolic hate. It's clear what the spirit is that's behind you. If you don't recognize the utter heresy, blasphemy, and idolatry in calling a created being like Mary THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you are from the Devil. Likewise if you defend it.
You should note the Orthodox Church also refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the All Holy One. Guess they are Hell bound in your system, too.
For your reference from the RC Catechism:
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[512]
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men … flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."[513] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
Keep making Satan proud of you, buddy.
curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.
More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.
There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.
Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.
You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.
Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..
You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.
Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.
Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?
We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.
Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.
You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.
What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.
Clang on, empty vessel.
The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.
If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.
You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.
Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.
Here is more:
"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.
Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.
Mary is a good woman, but she can't provide anything for us. Only Jesus Christ can. The path to Jesus Christ is Faith in Him and His death and resurrection, His shed blood as the sacrifice, payment for our sins.