BusyTarpDuster: "OldBear is difficult to discuss with because if he's not constantly dodging questions, he is constantly arguing strawmen - you argue that salvation is by faith alone, then he argues that what you're saying is that all we need to do is "check boxes" or "simply speak a phrase" which I don't think is what you're saying at all."
First, this is an ad hominem fallacy. Not only is BTD making the answer to Frodo about me instead of addressing the topic, he has inserted two false statements that I "dodge questions" and that I am "arguing strawmen". Ironically, the strawman argument (another logic fallacy) is what BTD is doing, attacking what I did not say rather than what I did.
BTD goes on to attack my point without addressing even one of the scriptures I posted to support my position. Hardly surprising from my point of view, as I am not aware of any scriptures which support his argument.
I will give BTD benefit of the doubt, since he admits to being confused. So I will explain my position yet again, in hopes that perhaps this time BTD will gain something better than high blood pressure from the discussion.
To start again, my position comes from Scripture, specifically the words and instructions from our Lord Jesus Christ. There are some who like to make an argument using Pauls' letters, which are fine except when someone applies an interpretation which would contradict what Christ said. Others make an argument purely out of their emotion and ego, such as those 'churches' which teach heresies like the Prosperity Gospel.
In Luke 6:35-36, Christ makes clear how we are to act: "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
In Matthew 5:3-12 Jesus preaches the Beatitudes, which clearly promise rewards for such behaviors as meekness, mercy, peacemaking and perseverance in the face of attacks.
But in verse 13 (also Luke 14:34-35), Christ also clearly warns "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
This can only mean that the very thing that makes us pleasing to God can be lost. Christ is very clearly warning that we can lose our way. The same warning is in Mark 9:50
Some people like to imagine that everyone in Heaven will be the same. Yet in Matthew 6:20 Christ directs us to "store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." That is proof that what we do now will be remembered when we are in Heaven, and therefore to focus on what matters. And what we do as followers of Christ serves not only to create our own reward or punishment, even after entering Heaven, but identifies what our motivation and identity as persons.
Christ clearly told us (Luke 6:44-45) "Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."
Also, it seems very easy to just believe and be saved. Christ warns in Matthew 7:13-14 to "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Remember that Jesus said this to the people who were following Him!
Even more, Jesus warns in Matthew 7:19-20 that "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." This is further proof that we must act in our faith, not just say we have faith.
Verse 21 even says so: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
In Luke 11:35 Jesus warns us to "See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness."
It shouldn't come as a surprise, really. If we are followers of Christ, we should be doing what He did. And what we see in the Gospel accounts is Christ doing works all the time, from teaching and healing and moral lessons to personal example. So we should do the same, as Jesus commanded. Matthew 10:24 clearly says "The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master." In Matthew 12:50 (also Mark 3:34-35, Luke 15:20) Christ clearly said "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
In Matthew 16:27 Christ clearly said "the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."
In Matthew 20:26-28 (also Mark 10:43-45) Jesus again commands us to act as He did, saying "whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Consider also Christ's parable of the wedding banquet. A man who was invited to the wedding, and who came, was thrown out because he was not dressed appropriately (Matthew 22:11-13). This is a clear warning that we must act as followers of Christ, not just claim the name because He offered the hope to us.
Consider also the parable of the bags of gold (Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:11-26). All three of the men concerned were servants of the Master, but the one who did not do as he was commanded lost his place and his blessing from the Master.
With all this said, I want to be very clear that we not only do not earn our Salvation through our works, we cannot do so. Our Lord Jesus Christ would not have endured all He did, if it were not necessary in order for us to be saved. Further, every good act we do is made possible by the grace of God, so there is glory for God when we do good, but it is not our merit from it.
But it is possible for us to lose what we have been given, otherwise Christ would not have said so often that we need to be watchful and take care. John 6:66 reminds us that after a hard saying from Christ, "many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him"
Jesus spoke plainly: "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)
Therefore we are to believe, and act on that belief according to Christ's example and direction. We are redeemed by Christ's atonement on our behalf, but only if we keep his commands and act on them do we show we live in the faith.
If you disagree with my understanding on this matter, please explain how all of these verses, from the word of Christ Himself, do not mean what they plainly say. Show the verses which support your understanding, that we may all have hearts and minds which please the Lord, and do not bicker like those who have neither faith nor hope.
