Frodo, you may not realize you have depended totally on the writings of Paul for your assertion.

Can you provide quotes from Jesus that support your position?

[please remember my post from last week. A gentle spirit turns away wrath, and is the example of our Lord in His own actions and teaching ]

Thank you for the numerous versus from Romans. It's a great book. I am still waiting on a response to the question in my previous post concerning Romans 1:12 & 2:6-7.

For the sake of breivity, I don't want to "Fisk" the enter post. I'll address a few of the quotes...

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

---

Here St. Paul is addressing the fact that we are NOT save by the Mosaic works of the law. Not necessarily works.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

---

I'm not seeing FAITH ALONE in these passages.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

---

I'll respond with two other passages and a question:
James 2:24 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Matthew 7:21 (NKJV)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

How do you square FAITH ALONE in light of those passages?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

It's pretty clear that Salvation by by Grace (God's Work) through Faith (Our choice to Believe God) Believing that Jesus Christ died and Rose Again for our sins.

---

Finally, no one here is arguing against a faith-based salvation. It's absolutely necessary. I will argue against FAITH ALONE. I do reject the Sola Fide claims as I don't find them biblically sound. (Being Catholic, I reject all 5 points of Calvin's TULIP, as I don't find them biblically sound - but that's a horse of a different color.)

Coke Bear said:

---

Thank you for the numerous versus from Romans. It's a great book. I am still waiting on a response to the question in my previous post concerning Romans 1:12 & 2:6-7.

For the sake of breivity, I don't want to "Fisk" the enter post. I'll address a few of the quotes...

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

---

Here St. Paul is addressing the fact that we are NOT save by the Mosaic works of the law. Not necessarily works.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

---

I'm not seeing FAITH ALONE in these passages.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

---

I'll respond with two other passages and a question:
James 2:24 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Matthew 7:21 (NKJV)
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

How do you square FAITH ALONE in light of those passages?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

It's pretty clear that Salvation by by Grace (God's Work) through Faith (Our choice to Believe God) Believing that Jesus Christ died and Rose Again for our sins.

---

Finally, no one here is arguing against a faith-based salvation. It's absolutely necessary. I will argue against FAITH ALONE. I do reject the Sola Fide claims as I don't find them biblically sound. (Being Catholic, I reject all 5 points of Calvin's TULIP, as I don't find them biblically sound - but that's a horse of a different color.)

---

Then you didn't read it. It says you are not Justified by WORKS. It says you are Justified by Grace through FAITH.

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The deeds of the Law are WORKS

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


AGAIN it says it's not of works:

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The Mosaic Law is the only way you could do good deeds to get to heaven IF we could follow it perfectly, but we can't.

What is GRACE? God's Work, NOT ours. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH.

Again, It's not by Works. They come to Jesus saying "And in thy name done many wonderful works". What does Jesus say to them? "I never knew you" because they didn't have Faith in Him. Also they didn't have a genuine relationship with Christ, hence "I never knew you" . Born Again Christians have a genuine relationship with Christ. So again, it's not of works, it's of Faith.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This passage is probably your best ammo against my argument, but if you compare it to the rest of Scripture, it's overwhelmingly not in your favor. This passage is most likely saying that if you have true faith, it will result in good works. Good works don't save, but are the result of Salvation. Also, James was writing to a Jewish audience who came out of a Works based Religion (The Law).

James 2:24

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Salvation is CLEARLY not of works if you read the Book of Romans. Over and over it's shown. Paul was writing to the Grace age Church of today. James was writing to Jews who observed the Law all of their Lives and now are believers in Christ.

READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY AGAIN. IT"S NOT JUST ABOUT THE LAW, IT'S ALL WORKS:

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

Oldbear83 said:

---

Frodo, you may not realize you have depended totally on the writings of Paul for your assertion.

Can you provide quotes from Jesus that support your position?

[please remember my post from last week. A gentle spirit turns away wrath, and is the example of our Lord in His own actions and teaching ]

---

Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles. The Gospel of Grace was given to Paul from the risen Lord Jesus Christ for the Saints of Today.

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; {to fulfil...: or, fully to preach the word}

Paul was charged with sharing the Gospel with the Gentiles (Uncircumcision) and Peter was charged with sharing the Gospel to the Jews (Circumcision). .

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

The Jews at that time were still observing the Law for a time, until the Temple was destroyed and they Jews were scattered in 70 AD. That's probably why James when writing to the believing Jews said Faith without works is dead and that we are saved by works and not faith only. They were still observing the Law for a time.

So, no you cannot quote Christ on this point.

If He does not act haughtily, why do you do so?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Then you didn't read it. It says you are not Justified by WORKS. It says you are Justified by Grace through FAITH.
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The deeds of the Law are WORKS
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

AGAIN it says it's not of works:

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The Mosaic Law is the only way you could do good deeds to get to heaven IF we could follow it perfectly, but we can't.

---

The Hebrews didn't have the same notion of heaven. They had Abraham's Bosom as a waiting place until the resurrection, but that's besides the point.

The Mosaic laws contained the ceremonial and civil laws that set the Hebrews apart from all other people.
Those were the laws about how to keep one's beard, what to and what not to wear, what to and what not to eat, etc.

Jesus fulfilled those laws. They were no longer necessary. This is what St Paul is describing in Romans.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

What is GRACE? God's Work, NOT ours. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH.

---

Yes, but NOT faith ALONE.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Born Again Christians have a genuine relationship with Christ. So again, it's not of works, it's of Faith.

---

How do you believe one is born again? I've been born again the bible way - as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

- This is Baptism.

Repent. Believe. Be Baptized. This is what required for salvation.

You keep repeating faith alone. But I've presented versus like James 2:24, Matthew 7:21-23 and I'll provide a few more ...

James 2:26 -
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 19:16-17 -
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Once again, faith is required for salvation, but NOT faith alone. The bible says otherwise in the various passages I listed.

This whole sola fide notion began with Martin Luther and his myriad of personal issues. That's why he wanted to throw James out of the bible. It didn't fit his narrative.

I'll extend the same invitation to you that I have to others - If you're ever in the Waco area and would like to discuss theology, PM me. Let's meet up at George's and discuss over a few beers and chips and salsa. (IF you don't drink, I'm happy to buy you an iced tea.)

Most likely according to historical scholars, not bias religious ones Jesus is a fictional character. The Christian religion was built from religions of the time. God in man's form. Sacrificing a life for forgiveness, virgins births of God's are all ideas and practices that predated Christianity. And now we know as sure as we know the sun is a star or the earth is round there was never an adam and eve and that most of us have Neanderthal DNA and one other ancient human species which all points to there has never been original sin. You are a mammal plain and simple and have an ancient apelike ancestor. The evidence for this is overwhelming and becoming more so each and every day. I was a Christian for 35 years, but now see I was believing in nothing more than an ancient myth. No different than any of the 2000 otherr man-made religions we know of today. It has become quite evident religion is man-made. We now know of over aprx 2 trillion galaxies, hard to imagine if a creator did put all this in motion that such simple ideas of mankind can possibly explain a God..I am not so arrogant to think I know if there is a God or not. What I am 100 percent sure of is that all faiths are man-made. It's undeniable.

Cool story, bro.

Actually, it sounds pretty much denial of History, and a couple thousand years of it.

But you do you.

joseywales said:

---

Most likely according to historical scholars, not bias religious ones Jesus is a fictional character. The Christian religion was built from religions of the time. God in man's form. Sacrificing a life for forgiveness, virgins births of God's are all ideas and practices that predated Christianity. And now we know as sure as we know the sun is a star or the earth is round there was never an adam and eve and that most of us have Neanderthal DNA and one other ancient human species which all points to there has never been original sin. You are a mammal plain and simple and have an ancient apelike ancestor. The evidence for this is overwhelming and becoming more so each and every day. I was a Christian for 35 years, but now see I was believing in nothing more than an ancient myth. No different than any of the 2000 otherr man-made religions we know of today. It has become quite evident religion is man-made. We now know of over aprx 2 trillion galaxies, hard to imagine if a creator did put all this in motion that such simple ideas of mankind can possibly explain a God..I am not so arrogant to think I know if there is a God or not. What I am 100 percent sure of is that all faiths are man-made. It's undeniable.

---

Regarding Jesus being a fictional character, here are what major scholars say, most of which who are not religious:

Michael Grant - "In recent years, no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Patrick Gray - "That Jesus did in fact walk the face of the earth in the first century is no longer seriously doubted even by those who believe that very little about his life or death can be known with any certainty."

Bart Ehrman - "...the mythicist view does not have a foothold, or even have a toehold, among modern critical scholars of the bible"..."if that's what you're gonna believe, it just makes you look foolish.."

Maurice Casey, emeritus professor of New Testament and theology at the University of Nottingham, United Kingdom- "I therefore conclude that the mythicist arguments are completely spurious from beginning to end. They have been mainly put forward by incompetent and unqualified people....the mythicist view should therefore be regarded as verifiably false from beginning to end."

Joseph Hoffman - "the disease these buggers spread is ignorance disguised as common sense; they are the single greatest threat, next to fundamentalism to the calm and considered academic study of religion...while there is some very slight chance that Jesus did not exist, the evidence that he existed is sufficiently and cumulatively strong enough to defeat those doubts."

In other words, most all the relevant scholars in the field are saying that the view you hold, that Jesus was a fictional character, is not only wrong, it is just plain stupid. Pretty much like everything else you repeatedly post here. But whenever we try to engage you, you won't debate them, you just scurry off like a scared little mouse.

joseywales said:

---

Most likely according to historical scholars, not bias religious ones Jesus is a fictional character. The Christian religion was built from religions of the time. God in man's form. Sacrificing a life for forgiveness, virgins births of God's are all ideas and practices that predated Christianity. And now we know as sure as we know the sun is a star or the earth is round there was never an adam and eve and that most of us have Neanderthal DNA and one other ancient human species which all points to there has never been original sin. You are a mammal plain and simple and have an ancient apelike ancestor. The evidence for this is overwhelming and becoming more so each and every day. I was a Christian for 35 years, but now see I was believing in nothing more than an ancient myth. No different than any of the 2000 otherr man-made religions we know of today. It has become quite evident religion is man-made. We now know of over aprx 2 trillion galaxies, hard to imagine if a creator did put all this in motion that such simple ideas of mankind can possibly explain a God..I am not so arrogant to think I know if there is a God or not. What I am 100 percent sure of is that all faiths are man-made. It's undeniable.

---

So, what you are saying is, in 35 years you learned nothing.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

joseywales said:

---

Most likely according to historical scholars, not bias religious ones Jesus is a fictional character. The Christian religion was built from religions of the time. God in man's form. Sacrificing a life for forgiveness, virgins births of God's are all ideas and practices that predated Christianity. And now we know as sure as we know the sun is a star or the earth is round there was never an adam and eve and that most of us have Neanderthal DNA and one other ancient human species which all points to there has never been original sin. You are a mammal plain and simple and have an ancient apelike ancestor. The evidence for this is overwhelming and becoming more so each and every day. I was a Christian for 35 years, but now see I was believing in nothing more than an ancient myth. No different than any of the 2000 otherr man-made religions we know of today. It has become quite evident religion is man-made. We now know of over aprx 2 trillion galaxies, hard to imagine if a creator did put all this in motion that such simple ideas of mankind can possibly explain a God..I am not so arrogant to think I know if there is a God or not. What I am 100 percent sure of is that all faiths are man-made. It's undeniable.

---

Regarding Jesus being a fictional character, here are what major scholars say, most of which who are not religious:

Michael Grant - "In recent years, no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Patrick Gray - "That Jesus did in fact walk the face of the earth in the first century is no longer seriously doubted even by those who believe that very little about his life or death can be known with any certainty."

Bart Ehrman - "...the mythicist view does not have a foothold, or even have a toehold, among modern critical scholars of the bible"..."if that's what you're gonna believe, it just makes you look foolish.."

Maurice Casey, emeritus professor of New Testament and theology at the University of Nottingham, United Kingdom- "I therefore conclude that the mythicist arguments are completely spurious from beginning to end. They have been mainly put forward by incompetent and unqualified people....the mythicist view should therefore be regarded as verifiably false from beginning to end."

Joseph Hoffman - "the disease these buggers spread is ignorance disguised as common sense; they are the single greatest threat, next to fundamentalism to the calm and considered academic study of religion...while there is some very slight chance that Jesus did not exist, the evidence that he existed is sufficiently and cumulatively strong enough to defeat those doubts."

In other words, most all the relevant scholars in the field are saying that the view you hold, that Jesus was a fictional character, is not only wrong, it is just plain stupid. Pretty much like everything else you repeatedly post here. But whenever we try to engage you, you won't debate them, you just scurry off like a scared little mouse.

---

It's hard to imagine someone calling themselves joseywales, a fictional character that didn't run away but brought the fight, has such a reputation of running away.

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Then you didn't read it. It says you are not Justified by WORKS. It says you are Justified by Grace through FAITH.
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The deeds of the Law are WORKS
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

AGAIN it says it's not of works:

Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The Mosaic Law is the only way you could do good deeds to get to heaven IF we could follow it perfectly, but we can't.

---

The Hebrews didn't have the same notion of heaven. They had Abraham's Bosom as a waiting place until the resurrection, but that's besides the point.

The Mosaic laws contained the ceremonial and civil laws that set the Hebrews apart from all other people.
Those were the laws about how to keep one's beard, what to and what not to wear, what to and what not to eat, etc.

Jesus fulfilled those laws. They were no longer necessary. This is what St Paul is describing in Romans.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

What is GRACE? God's Work, NOT ours. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH.

---

Yes, but NOT faith ALONE.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Born Again Christians have a genuine relationship with Christ. So again, it's not of works, it's of Faith.

---

How do you believe one is born again? I've been born again the bible way - as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

- This is Baptism.

Repent. Believe. Be Baptized. This is what required for salvation.

You keep repeating faith alone. But I've presented versus like James 2:24, Matthew 7:21-23 and I'll provide a few more ...

James 2:26 -
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 19:16-17 -
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Once again, faith is required for salvation, but NOT faith alone. The bible says otherwise in the various passages I listed.

This whole sola fide notion began with Martin Luther and his myriad of personal issues. That's why he wanted to throw James out of the bible. It didn't fit his narrative.

I'll extend the same invitation to you that I have to others - If you're ever in the Waco area and would like to discuss theology, PM me. Let's meet up at George's and discuss over a few beers and chips and salsa. (IF you don't drink, I'm happy to buy you an iced tea.)

---

Yes Faith Alone. There are a few explanations for this verse. First, it is noted that this could be talking about the water in the Mother's Womb representing the Physical Birth.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Notice that it says that the word Baptism is omitted with it says, He who does not BELIEVE shall be condemned.

Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Secondly, this is referring to John's Baptism, which was for a short time BEFORE Christ died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for our sins. It was a WATER Baptism. After the Cross, Those who Believe are Baptized with the Holy Spirit until Salvation, NOT Water Baptism.

Mt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It says, He Baptizes with WATER, but Christ will soon Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit Baptism that saves.

LOOK: By One SPIRIT were we all Baptized into one Body (Christ). Not a drop of water in this Baptism.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

After we place our Faith in Christ, We are Baptized into His Body for Salvation. John's Baptism is no longer for today.

Yes Salvation is by Faith Alone. James was writing to Jews who were still observing the Law. Jews have a Works based system and James was telling them that true Faith produces good works, but good works don't save. Paul is who you need to adhere to because his writings are for the Gentiles of the current Grace Age.

Matthew 19 was Jesus talking the JEWS who were still under the Law. Christ hadn't died and rose again yet for our sins. So at that time, they were to follow the Law. You are following the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the JEWS under the LAW at that time. John's Baptism. Paul was given the Gospel of GRACE for the Gentiles and Jews of today. Martin Luther didn't understand these things as the Dispensational Theologians of today now understand. Because of the persecution of the Catholic Church, torturing Protestants for hundreds of years, many essential Doctrines of the Faith were lost. Some were Re Discovered during the Reformation by Luther and others, but some were ReDiscovered by Darby, Lewis Sperry Chafer (Head of the Dallas Theological Seminary) and others. Les Feldick has a great show called Through The Bible With Les Feldick. You should watch it so you can understand the correct way to interpret Scripture. Context matters, to who it was written, the background and setting/culture of whom it was written matters.

Greatest Bible Teacher I Have Ever Known:

http://www.lesfeldick.org/

Again, Frodo, how many have you brought to Christ using your tactics?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Again, Frodo, how many have you brought to Christ using your tactics?

---

They aren't tactics, it's proper interpretation of Scripture. Many have been brought to Christ through the Scriptures being presented in proper context. Just believe the Scripture:



Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Again, Frodo, how many have you brought to Christ using your tactics?

---

They aren't tactics, it's proper interpretation of Scripture. Many have been brought to Christ through the Scriptures being presented in proper context. Just believe the Scripture:



Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

---

How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is proper?

Are you an infallible man?

P.S. It's late and I'm tired. I'll respond to your other post Monday or Tuesday.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Again, Frodo, how many have you brought to Christ using your tactics?

---

They aren't tactics, it's proper interpretation of Scripture. Many have been brought to Christ through the Scriptures being presented in proper context. Just believe the Scripture:



Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

---

Your harvest is empty, Frodo.

What does that serve?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Yes Faith Alone. There are a few explanations for this verse. First, it is noted that this could be talking about the water in the Mother's Womb representing the Physical Birth.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

---

This is common Protestant claim that is easily refuted when one looks into the passage and other scriptures. The act is being performed simultaneously (Born of water and spirit) not independently (Being born and then born of spirit).

Here is a link to an article from Catholic Answers that explains what we believe. I could list a dozens more.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Secondly, this is referring to John's Baptism, which was for a short time BEFORE Christ died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for our sins. It was a WATER Baptism. After the Cross, Those who Believe are Baptized with the Holy Spirit until Salvation, NOT Water Baptism.

Mt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It says, He Baptizes with WATER, but Christ will soon Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit Baptism that saves.

LOOK: By One SPIRIT were we all Baptized into one Body (Christ). Not a drop of water in this Baptism.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

---

This is a misunderstanding of Jesus' baptism.

At the Great Commission - Matthew 28-19, Jesus tells us to ...
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "


At Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. This is the Spirit that the authors are describing. Your passages don't mention anything about getting the Spirit with faith.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Yes Salvation is by Faith Alone. James was writing to Jews who were still observing the Law. Jews have a Works based system and James was telling them that true Faith produces good works, but good works don't save. Paul is who you need to adhere to because his writings are for the Gentiles of the current Grace Age.

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James was writing to Christian Jews of his time. These were believers.

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire James to tell Christian Jews that there are saved by works based system and tell Paul to tell Gentile Christians that they were saved by faith alone? He wouldn't. This notion is completely incongruent biblically, theologically, and logically. The Bible (and Christianity) are meant for all -

Galatian 3:26-28 -

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Please show me where baptism is performed with faith NOT the act requiring water.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Matthew 19 was Jesus talking the JEWS who were still under the Law. Christ hadn't died and rose again yet for our sins. So at that time, they were to follow the Law. You are following the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the JEWS under the LAW at that time. John's Baptism. Paul was given the Gospel of GRACE for the Gentiles and Jews of today. Martin Luther didn't understand these things as the Dispensational Theologians of today now understand. Because of the persecution of the Catholic Church, torturing Protestants for hundreds of years, many essential Doctrines of the Faith were lost. Some were Re Discovered during the Reformation by Luther and others, but some were ReDiscovered by Darby, Lewis Sperry Chafer (Head of the Dallas Theological Seminary) and others. Les Feldick has a great show called Through The Bible With Les Feldick. You should watch it so you can understand the correct way to interpret Scripture. Context matters, to who it was written, the background and setting/culture of whom it was written matters.

Greatest Bible Teacher I Have Ever Known:

http://www.lesfeldick.org/

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Three last things here ...

1) Please show me where and what "essential Doctrines of the Faith were lost" and WHEN by torturing Protestants for hundreds of years" in light of the Matthew 16:18 -

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

2) You never answered my question about your authority to interpret scripture properly and if you were infallible. I will assume that you get your authoriy from Les Feldick (I'm not familiar with him or his work, but I'm not Protestant either.)

What or Who gives him his authority. Is he infallible in his interpretations?

3)The following Church fathers and epistles all believed in a water baptism for the forgiveness of sins:

Epistle of Barnabas - 70 -130 AD
The Shepherd of Hermas - 100-160 AD
Justin Martyr's First Apology - circa 150 AD
Clement of Alexandria - 190 AD
Tertullian - 203 AD
St. Augustine - 397 - 400 AD

How did these early men that lived much closer to Apostles that Les Feldick get it wrong?

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Yes Faith Alone. There are a few explanations for this verse. First, it is noted that this could be talking about the water in the Mother's Womb representing the Physical Birth.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

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This is common Protestant claim that is easily refuted when one looks into the passage and other scriptures. The act is being performed simultaneously (Born of water and spirit) not independently (Being born and then born of spirit).

Here is a link to an article from Catholic Answers that explains what we believe. I could list a dozens more.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Secondly, this is referring to John's Baptism, which was for a short time BEFORE Christ died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for our sins. It was a WATER Baptism. After the Cross, Those who Believe are Baptized with the Holy Spirit until Salvation, NOT Water Baptism.

Mt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It says, He Baptizes with WATER, but Christ will soon Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit Baptism that saves.

LOOK: By One SPIRIT were we all Baptized into one Body (Christ). Not a drop of water in this Baptism.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

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This is a misunderstanding of Jesus' baptism.

At the Great Commission - Matthew 28-19, Jesus tells us to ...
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "


At Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. This is the Spirit that the authors are describing. Your passages don't mention anything about getting the Spirit with faith.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Yes Salvation is by Faith Alone. James was writing to Jews who were still observing the Law. Jews have a Works based system and James was telling them that true Faith produces good works, but good works don't save. Paul is who you need to adhere to because his writings are for the Gentiles of the current Grace Age.

---

James was writing to Christian Jews of his time. These were believers.

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire James to tell Christian Jews that there are saved by works based system and tell Paul to tell Gentile Christians that they were saved by faith alone? He wouldn't. This notion is completely incongruent biblically, theologically, and logically. The Bible (and Christianity) are meant for all -

Galatian 3:26-28 -

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Please show me where baptism is performed with faith NOT the act requiring water.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Matthew 19 was Jesus talking the JEWS who were still under the Law. Christ hadn't died and rose again yet for our sins. So at that time, they were to follow the Law. You are following the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the JEWS under the LAW at that time. John's Baptism. Paul was given the Gospel of GRACE for the Gentiles and Jews of today. Martin Luther didn't understand these things as the Dispensational Theologians of today now understand. Because of the persecution of the Catholic Church, torturing Protestants for hundreds of years, many essential Doctrines of the Faith were lost. Some were Re Discovered during the Reformation by Luther and others, but some were ReDiscovered by Darby, Lewis Sperry Chafer (Head of the Dallas Theological Seminary) and others. Les Feldick has a great show called Through The Bible With Les Feldick. You should watch it so you can understand the correct way to interpret Scripture. Context matters, to who it was written, the background and setting/culture of whom it was written matters.

Greatest Bible Teacher I Have Ever Known:

http://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

Three last things here ...

1) Please show me where and what "essential Doctrines of the Faith were lost" and WHEN by torturing Protestants for hundreds of years" in light of the Matthew 16:18 -

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

2) You never answered my question about your authority to interpret scripture properly and if you were infallible. I will assume that you get your authoriy from Les Feldick (I'm not familiar with him or his work, but I'm not Protestant either.)

What or Who gives him his authority. Is he infallible in his interpretations?

3)The following Church fathers and epistles all believed in a water baptism for the forgiveness of sins:

Epistle of Barnabas - 70 -130 AD
The Shepherd of Hermas - 100-160 AD
Justin Martyr's First Apology - circa 150 AD
Clement of Alexandria - 190 AD
Tertullian - 203 AD
St. Augustine - 397 - 400 AD

How did these early men that lived much closer to Apostles that Les Feldick get it wrong?

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Jesus was talking to His Disciples who were preparing for the Kingdom that Christ was going to set up on the earth at that time, UNTIL the Jews rejected their Messiah and so if you keep reading the Scriptures and real Paul, you will find out that because the Jews rejected their Messiah, they were put on a shelf as a Nation and the Gospel was given to the Gentiles under GRACE. The Baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit Baptism when we place our FAITH in Christ ALONE for Salvation. Not all Baptism is water Baptism. That's your error.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

It is the GOSPEL that saves, NOT Baptism:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Paul wasn't sent to Baptize, but to Preach The Gosepl:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}


The Holy Spirit gives me the Authority to interpret Scripture. The Pope has no special authority if that's what you are implying. I don't need the Pope, I have Christ and I have the Holy Spirit. I never said I was infallible. Only the Word of God and Jesus Christ are infallible, but I know how to properly interpret Scripture.

Those men are wrong. Water Baptism does NOT save nor does it forgive sins. I believe the Scriptures, not some man. There were false teachers even in Peter's day. Obviously, they were some of them.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Paul said:

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(KJV)

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Jesus was talking to His Disciples who were preparing for the Kingdom that Christ was going to set up on the earth at that time, UNTIL the Jews rejected their Messiah and so if you keep reading the Scriptures and real Paul, you will find out that because the Jews rejected their Messiah, they were put on a shelf as a Nation and the Gospel was given to the Gentiles under GRACE.

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The first Christians were Jews. The books of Matthew and Hebrews were written for a Jewish audience. Every book of the NT was written by a Jew, save Luke and Acts.

Quote:

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The Baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit Baptism when we place our FAITH in Christ ALONE for Salvation. Not all Baptism is water Baptism. That's your error.

It is the GOSPEL that saves, NOT Baptism:

---

Are you sure? Are you now a saying that all one needs to do is read the Gospel?
1 Peter 3:21 -
Corresponding to that (Noah and the other brought thru the water), baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Acts 2:38 -
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

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Paul wasn't sent to Baptize, but to Preach The Gosepl:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}

---

I believe that you left out the first AND critical part of that letter:

1 Corinthians 1:10-16 -
10 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brothers and sisters, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am with Paul," or "I am with Apollos," or "I am with Cephas," or "I am with Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name! 16 But I did baptize the household of Stephanas also; beyond that, I do not know if I baptized anyone else.

Paul wasn't arguing against Baptism. He was arguing against the people attempting to form ranks based on who baptized them. That's why he quit baptizing people. He wanted unification in Christ.

Baptism is so critical to our salvation, that's why it's the last thing that he said in the Great Commission in Matthew 28 before he ascended. Jesus did not say, 'Go, therefore, and write a book!' He said 'Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing ...'

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Holy Spirit gives me the Authority to interpret Scripture. The Pope has no special authority if that's what you are implying. I don't need the Pope, I have Christ and I have the Holy Spirit. I never said I was infallible. Only the Word of God and Jesus Christ are infallible, but I know how to properly interpret Scripture.

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I'm fine leaving the Pope out of this portion.

You stated that you are not infallible. Why should I listen to your interpretation? I've been baptized and confirmed. I have the Holy Spirit and He gives me the ability to interpret scripture. I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it.

Our views conflict. We both can't be correct. How do we know whose is the correct interpretation? What makes your view better than mine?

Coke Bear: "I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it."

This statement bothers me as much as Frodo's insistence that pressing a point of debate is more important than bringing anyone to Christ.

Ultimately, I hope we can all agree that Salvation comes down to God's will. If God were to tell any of us that we were denied Heaven, there is no argument nor evidence we could make/produce to change His mind or alter the judgment. In the same way, if God chooses to grant Grace to one or all of us, again that is His will and we would be nothing but fools to dispute it.

I want us to avoid the mistake of the Pharisees. A lot of people understand the Pharisees as a group of self-impressed hypocrites, and indeed some of them were so. But the Pharisees were originally formed because people had started to stray from observing the Law, thinking it was not necessary for them to be right with God. The Pharisees originally started with the right idea, of getting in line with God's Law as Scripture and the teachings of Moses required. And it's important to observe that Jesus was in full compliance with the Law given to Moses. That tells me that while we are not bound by the Old Covenant, it remains God's compact with Man and where possible, we should follow that practice as part of good conscience.

Discernment matters when we decide if and when the Old Covenant is no longer relevant, such as diet or sacrifice. That is, we are not prohibited from eating pork for example, but a man should not be a glutton or a drunkard. We are not required to go to temple and sacrifice livestock, but a man does well to pay attention to his moral duty to charity.

The situation I see argued here really does not apply to any of us in this group. Our Salvation was purchased, in full, by the Atonement of Christ on the cross, but I hope none of us would argue that our lives should be the same following the acceptance of Christ as they were before. If that were the case, what value is there to professing faith? The works we do as believers are the fruit we bring in harvest to the Father, not because we are required to do so in order to be acceptable to the Father, but it is right and well that we give thanks to the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit, by acting in the way we know pleases the Lord.

I might say it this way - if I am accepted into the orchestra, I celebrate that honor by learning the music and practicing it, so that when we perform my part will be well done. So too I hope that my walk in faith will teach me the way of pleasing God, so that when I come into His Presence, I will be ready to serve in good measure.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Jesus was talking to His Disciples who were preparing for the Kingdom that Christ was going to set up on the earth at that time, UNTIL the Jews rejected their Messiah and so if you keep reading the Scriptures and real Paul, you will find out that because the Jews rejected their Messiah, they were put on a shelf as a Nation and the Gospel was given to the Gentiles under GRACE.

---

The first Christians were Jews. The books of Matthew and Hebrews were written for a Jewish audience. Every book of the NT was written by a Jew, save Luke and Acts.

Quote:

---

The Baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit Baptism when we place our FAITH in Christ ALONE for Salvation. Not all Baptism is water Baptism. That's your error.

It is the GOSPEL that saves, NOT Baptism:

---

Are you sure? Are you now a saying that all one needs to do is read the Gospel?
1 Peter 3:21 -
Corresponding to that (Noah and the other brought thru the water), baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Acts 2:38 -
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

---

Paul wasn't sent to Baptize, but to Preach The Gosepl:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}

---

I believe that you left out the first AND critical part of that letter:

1 Corinthians 1:10-16 -
10 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brothers and sisters, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am with Paul," or "I am with Apollos," or "I am with Cephas," or "I am with Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name! 16 But I did baptize the household of Stephanas also; beyond that, I do not know if I baptized anyone else.

Paul wasn't arguing against Baptism. He was arguing against the people attempting to form ranks based on who baptized them. That's why he quit baptizing people. He wanted unification in Christ.

Baptism is so critical to our salvation, that's why it's the last thing that he said in the Great Commission in Matthew 28 before he ascended. Jesus did not say, 'Go, therefore, and write a book!' He said 'Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing ...'

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Holy Spirit gives me the Authority to interpret Scripture. The Pope has no special authority if that's what you are implying. I don't need the Pope, I have Christ and I have the Holy Spirit. I never said I was infallible. Only the Word of God and Jesus Christ are infallible, but I know how to properly interpret Scripture.

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I'm fine leaving the Pope out of this portion.

You stated that you are not infallible. Why should I listen to your interpretation? I've been baptized and confirmed. I have the Holy Spirit and He gives me the ability to interpret scripture. I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it.

Our views conflict. We both can't be correct. How do we know whose is the correct interpretation? What makes your view better than mine?

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That's exactly right. The first believers were Jews who were still under the Law and still kept the Law. Nowhere in any Scripture does it say we are no longer under the law, does it? Only Paul's writings to the Grace Age Church say that we are not under the Law. The message of the Jewish believers was the Kindom Gospel of Repent and Be Baptized and believe in your Messiah Jesus. Paul's Message of Grace to the Grace Age Church of today is Faith alone in Jesus Christ for Salvation, believing the He died and rose again for your sins. Both programs were being preached side by side for a time. The Jews preached the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews only and Paul Preached his message primarily to Gentiles with a few exceptions. All of the books of the Bible were written to the Nations of Israel EXCEPT Paul's writings were written to the Primarily Gentile, Grace Age Churches.

Paul debated the 12 about adding works of the Law to Salvation. Paul's message was different than the 12 at THAT time. It wasn't until after the Temple was destroyed that Paul's Message of Grace prevailed and the Jewish congregations died out.

Ga 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.
3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.
7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.


Every book of the Bible WAS written by a Jew INCLUDING Luke and Acts...Although that is debated, it is assumed that Luke was a Gentile because he has a gentile name. Scripture says that all Scripture was written by Jews.

Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Yes, even Peter says that WATER Baptism does NOT save. NOT the removal of the filth of the flesh (Water Baptism) BUT the answer of a good Conscience toward God (FAITH) through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This was later on in Peter's ministry when he began to send people to Paul's Message of Grace found it hard to understand because he kept the law all of his life:

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
(NKJV)

Acts 2:38 was Peter when he was still Preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom BEFORE Paul was called to spread the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

Paul quit Baptizing people because it doesn't have any saving power, the Gospel does and he wanted to focus on Preaching the Gospel of Grace through faith alone for Salvation believing that Jesus died and rose again, shedding His blood for our sins.

Jesus commission to the 12 Disciples was the Gospel of the Kingdom.
The Gospel of the Kingdom was different than Paul's Gospel of Grace.
Paul shows that under Grace we are Baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, not water.
Water Baptism is ONLY a symbol of the Spiritual birth caused by the Holy Spirit when we believe.
Adding water Baptism to Salvation is adding works to Salvation.
The Thief on the cross was not Baptized and was still saved.

You should listen to me because I can back up what I say with the Word of God, the Scriptures. Don't believe ME. Believe God's Word. My interpretation is correct because it more closely lines up with Scripture. That should be YOUR goal. Swallow your pride and humble yourself to God and His Word.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it."

This statement bothers me as much as Frodo's insistence that pressing a point of debate is more important than bringing anyone to Christ.

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Pressing this issue is ALL about bringing people to Christ. The Bible says that if you add anything to Grace, then you nullify it. Paul's Gospel of Grace is for today. He is following the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the Jews who were still under the Law.

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(KJV)

Frodo: "Pressing this issue is ALL about bringing people to Christ"


But you have brought no one to Christ. Your pride poisons your message, brother.

Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: "Pressing this issue is ALL about bringing people to Christ"


But you have brought no one to Christ. Your pride poisons your message, brother.

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First all, how do YOU know who I have and have not brought to Christ? It's MY job to tell people the truth, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict people and bring them unto Salvation.

Secondly, if anyone here is prideful it's people like you who arrogantly don't care what the Bible says, you only care what you want to believe. Call me what you will, but you obviously don't know why I posted this or what I am doing.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: "Pressing this issue is ALL about bringing people to Christ"


But you have brought no one to Christ. Your pride poisons your message, brother.

---

First all, how do YOU know who I have and have not brought to Christ? It's MY job to tell people the truth, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict people and bring them unto Salvation.

Secondly, if anyone here is prideful it's people like you who arrogantly don't care what the Bible says, you only care what you want to believe. Call me what you will, but you obviously don't know why I am here or what I am doing.

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First off, you are constantly prideful and angry, to the point that you lie about what other Christians here have said. I have quoted Scripture just as you have, but I did not depend on one author. You depend on Paul and your interpretation of his writing. I understand you believe the passages you quote are compelling, but you lack the grace to listen to what other Christians can teach.

I certainly do not agree with some of the practices of the Roman Catholic denomination, but I have no doubt that Coke Bear is a genuine Christian who walks in faith. He has gone to great trouble to discuss Scripture and the Gospel account in context. You would find his posts enlightening if you gave them a chance.

Stop and read your posts, from the perspective of someone who does not believe in Christ already. You argue, but you do not persuade.

Coming back to Paul, who is your sole source in this thread. Consider then 1 Corinthians 9:21-22:

"To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

Paul plainly says that he took care to persuade, not attack.

In the end, Frodo, you will of course choose your words and attitude. But I sense a great deal of anger in your posts, and no small arrogance. That is why I counsel you to stop and seek the Holy Spirit's direction in your perspective.

As a final thought, please consider that while it is Faith that brings a person to Christ, some do fall away and we should consider how to keep sheep safe once they are in the flock.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it."

This statement bothers me as much as Frodo's insistence that pressing a point of debate is more important than bringing anyone to Christ.

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Thank you. I realize that my statement did come across a little heavy handed. That was not my intention. I wanted to point out that anyone can claim to have the HS and interpret the bible, but not everyone is correct. I should have used a softer approach.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ultimately, I hope we can all agree that Salvation comes down to God's will. If God were to tell any of us that we were denied Heaven, there is no argument nor evidence we could make/produce to change His mind or alter the judgment. In the same way, if God chooses to grant Grace to one or all of us, again that is His will and we would be nothing but fools to dispute it.

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One point of difference here... The Catholic Church teaches that ALL men are given sufficient grace to accept God or not. It's our choice (free will) to accept it. Obviously he gives more grace to some people - Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, etc.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it."

This statement bothers me as much as Frodo's insistence that pressing a point of debate is more important than bringing anyone to Christ.

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Thank you. I realize that my statement did come across a little heavy handed. That was not my intention. I wanted to point out that anyone can claim to have the HS and interpret the bible, but not everyone is correct. I should have used a softer approach.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ultimately, I hope we can all agree that Salvation comes down to God's will. If God were to tell any of us that we were denied Heaven, there is no argument nor evidence we could make/produce to change His mind or alter the judgment. In the same way, if God chooses to grant Grace to one or all of us, again that is His will and we would be nothing but fools to dispute it.

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One point of difference here... The Catholic Church teaches that ALL men are given sufficient grace to accept God or not. It's our choice (free will) to accept it. Obviously he gives more grace to some people - Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, etc.

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Well said.

Thanks for posting .

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: "Pressing this issue is ALL about bringing people to Christ"


But you have brought no one to Christ. Your pride poisons your message, brother.

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First all, how do YOU know who I have and have not brought to Christ? It's MY job to tell people the truth, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict people and bring them unto Salvation.

Secondly, if anyone here is prideful it's people like you who arrogantly don't care what the Bible says, you only care what you want to believe. Call me what you will, but you obviously don't know why I am here or what I am doing.

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First off, you are constantly prideful and angry, to the point that you lie about what other Christians here have said. I have quoted Scripture just as you have, but I did not depend on one author. You depend on Paul and your interpretation of his writing. I understand you believe the passages you quote are compelling, but you lack the grace to listen to what other Christians can teach.

I certainly do not agree with some of the practices of the Roman Catholic denomination, but I have no doubt that Coke Bear is a genuine Christian who walks in faith. He has gone to great trouble to discuss Scripture and the Gospel account in context. You would find his posts enlightening if you gave them a chance.

Stop and read your posts, from the perspective of someone who does not believe in Christ already. You argue, but you do not persuade.

Coming back to Paul, who is your sole source in this thread. Consider then 1 Corinthians 9:21-22:

"To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

Paul plainly says that he took care to persuade, not attack.

In the end, Frodo, you will of course choose your words and attitude. But I sense a great deal of anger in your posts, and no small arrogance. That is why I counsel you to stop and seek the Holy Spirit's direction in your perspective.

As a final thought, please consider that while it is Faith that brings a person to Christ, some do fall away and we should consider how to keep sheep safe once they are in the flock.

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False and also False. It would be you that is lying about me. I relied on the Word of God and you didn't like what I had to say, so if that makes me prideful in your eyes, then so be it. God gave Paul the Gospel of Grace as the Scripture CLEARLY says. If you don't like that, take it up with God. Instead of getting mad and calling me names that aren't true, read it for yourself and believe God. All you have to do is READ the Book of Romans and actually BELIEVE what it says.

I have no problem with CokeBear except that he has added works to the Gospel, which the Scripture warns against. I have to warn people of the danger of what he is teaching because I care enough not to keep quiet. If you think that makes me prideful, then so be it. I have to answer to God and I will go to Him knowing that I did my best to help and warn people.

If you aren't persuaded by my posts, it's because you don't want to be because you refuse to believe what the Scripture actually says.

So let's get this straight, When YOU attack me and my character, that's ok, but when I fight back, then that means I am the angry one. Ok, maybe YOU need to stop attacking me first and then you won't have to worry about me defending myself.

Christians have a right to defend themselves. If you attack me, then I will fight back. Don't attack me if you don't like it.

Ro 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
(KJV)

Now you are lifting yourself up to be a councilor and criticize me for sharing the truth? Look in the mirror. The Holy Spirit want's God's Word shared. You don't. Who is going against the Spirit here?

I don't believe in losing your Salvation. Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone, believing that Christ died and rose again for our sins.

I shake the dust off my shoes, then.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "I'd stake my life on my interpretation. No, I'll stake my salvation on it."

This statement bothers me as much as Frodo's insistence that pressing a point of debate is more important than bringing anyone to Christ.

---

Thank you. I realize that my statement did come across a little heavy handed. That was not my intention. I wanted to point out that anyone can claim to have the HS and interpret the bible, but not everyone is correct. I should have used a softer approach.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ultimately, I hope we can all agree that Salvation comes down to God's will. If God were to tell any of us that we were denied Heaven, there is no argument nor evidence we could make/produce to change His mind or alter the judgment. In the same way, if God chooses to grant Grace to one or all of us, again that is His will and we would be nothing but fools to dispute it.

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One point of difference here... The Catholic Church teaches that ALL men are given sufficient grace to accept God or not. It's our choice (free will) to accept it. Obviously he gives more grace to some people - Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, etc.

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Solid post. Thanks Coke Bear.

Oldbear83 said:

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I shake the dust off my shoes, then.

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Ok, good bye. Read the Book of Romans for yourself is my advice. Truth is more important than good feelings. Speaking the Truth is love. Letting people believe a lie, is not love.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Oldbear83 said:

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I shake the dust off my shoes, then.

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This is the post of all posts on this thread.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I shake the dust off my shoes, then.

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This is the post of all posts on this thread.

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No, this is and not a drop of works in this verse either. You are adhering to a message given to Law Keeping JEWS.

The message is for those under Grace, primarily Gentiles. You have been warned. Not trying to be rude as you think, but I need to speak the truth of the Word of God to you. The Prophets were hated for speaking the truth as well, but God sent them to warn people when all else failed. If that offends you, then take it up with God.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Warnings from Paul:

If you are trusting in good works to save you, Christ is of no effect unto you:

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If you are trusting in your Baptism to save you the cross of Christ is of none effect. It's by Faith alone:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

It is the Gospel of Grace that saves:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(KJV)

Here is the Gospel that saves:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {keep...: or, hold fast} {what: Gr. by what speech}
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

THIS IS HOW A MAN IS SAVED. NO WORKS.

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.....

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."


Baptism, Sacraments (Communion), Good deeds are something you do as the result of Salvation. Christians are created UNTO good works, NOT because of them. WE (The Saved by Grace) SHOULD Walk in them.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}

No one is going to get to heaven and say that it is because of their good works, EVERYONE there will have to say it is because of what JESUS did on the Cross to pay for their sins. Hence (Lest anyone should boast).

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

As much as I can tell from a message board that allows us to hide behind screen names, Frodo, Coke and 83 all seem to be good, strong, Christians. So, what does this thread look like to the non-Christian?

(In my deepest Steve Brown voice) You think about that.