BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

Edit: oh, its your position that works and water baptism are NOT required?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

I agree that true Faith PRODUCES good works, but Good Works do not save nor keep you because as I have repeatedly said, Good Works don't save a man, Faith in Christ and His Death and Resurrection does. The entire book of Romans is devoted to explaining that. It's very clear. You are trying to INCLUDE Good Works to God's plan of Salvation and the Bible warns against trusting in your own good works. It is the work of CHRIST that saves on the Cross. Nothing more. The RESULT of Salvation is Good Deeds to please the Lord. I agree on that.

We are Saved so that we can do Good Works, NOT because of our Good Works:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Does this make sense to you?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

---

Dusty, I would say it is you who is being confrontational. You have offered a binary choice, both of which I find false. The correct answer lies in Scripture, but you seem to fear that for some reason.

If you want to understand what is required for Salvation, simply look to the accounts of people who were saved. Saved from what, and how?

Frodo looks to unusual accounts, like the thief on the cross. What did we see there? Obviously, as he was about to die he could not do any works in service to God after that moment, nor obviously could he be baptised. In the Gospel accounts, the thief confirms in words that he is dying of his own sin and asks Christ to remember him when He is in Heaven (acceptance and belief and confession) upon which Jesus promises the thief he will be in Paradise with Jesus that day.

So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows. This was clearly after Christ's ascension to Heaven, yet baptism was clearly directed. Same for Acts 16:30-34.

Now, does this mean that baptism is what saves a person? No, Christ's atonement does that, but the baptism matters because it marks the person. That is also why we are told about Christ's own baptism (Matthew
3:13-16), because it demonstrates the value of public observance of the rite.

Consider also that some fall away. I called upon Christ's own warnings in Matthew 5:13, 5:18-19, Mark 9:50, Matthew 7:16-17, and Mark 12:28-34.

The works do not earn Salvation, but are nonetheless the clear duty of any who would claim to belong to Christ.

All of this I have posted before, all of it in context and alignment with other Scripture. Frodo, sadly, refuses to do the same, but uses only Paul to support claims not made anywhere in Scripture, such as his insistence that Paul received "doctrine" from Christ Himself, something not even Peter claimed.

Now in all of this I have not been angry, but have used Scripture in context and from multiple sources, especially Christ's own words. I have also answered every question put to me, again something you have not done, nor has Frodo.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

---

Dusty, I would say it is you who is being confrontational. You have offered a binary choice, both of which I find false. The correct answer lies in Scripture, but you seem to fear that for some reason.

If you want to understand what is required for Salvation, simply look to the accounts of people who were saved. Saved from what, and how?

Frodo looks to unusual accounts, like the thief on the cross. What did we see there? Obviously, as he was about to die he could not do any works in service to God after that moment, nor obviously could he be baptised. In the Gospel accounts, the thief confirms in words that he is dying of his own sin and asks Christ to remember him when He is in Heaven (acceptance and belief and confession) upon which Jesus promises the thief he will be in Paradise with Jesus that day.

So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows. This was clearly after Christ's ascension to Heaven, yet baptism was clearly directed. Same for Acts 16:30-34.

Now, does this mean that baptism is what saves a person? No, Christ's atonement does that, but the baptism matters because it marks the person. That is also why we are told about Christ's own baptism (Matthew
3:13-16), because it demonstrates the value of public observance of the rite.

Consider also that some fall away. I called upon Christ's own warnings in Matthew 5:13, 5:18-19, Mark 9:50, Matthew 7:16-17, and Mark 12:28-34.

The works do not earn Salvation, but are nonetheless the clear duty of any who would claim to belong to Christ.

All of this I have posted before, all of it in context and alignment with other Scripture. Frodo, sadly, refuses to do the same, but uses only Paul to support claims not made anywhere in Scripture, such as his insistence that Paul received "doctrine" from Christ Himself, something not even Peter claimed.

Now in all of this I have not been angry, but have used Scripture in context and from multiple sources, especially Christ's own words. I have also answered every question put to me, again something you have not done, nor has Frodo.

---

The Holy Spirit Marks a person through the Baptism of the Holy Ghost

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. KJV

Holy Spirit Baptizes a man into Christ, NOT Water Baptism.

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(KJV)

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(KJV)

Not Water, but an answer of a good conscience toward God:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV)

This was John's Ministry BEFORE Christ came:

Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Ac 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Ac 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Ac 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus

You have no source but Paul and your own interpretation, Frodo.

That's weak by any standard

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

---

Dusty, I would say it is you who is being confrontational. You have offered a binary choice, both of which I find false. The correct answer lies in Scripture, but you seem to fear that for some reason.

If you want to understand what is required for Salvation, simply look to the accounts of people who were saved. Saved from what, and how?

Frodo looks to unusual accounts, like the thief on the cross. What did we see there? Obviously, as he was about to die he could not do any works in service to God after that moment, nor obviously could he be baptised. In the Gospel accounts, the thief confirms in words that he is dying of his own sin and asks Christ to remember him when He is in Heaven (acceptance and belief and confession) upon which Jesus promises the thief he will be in Paradise with Jesus that day.

So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows. This was clearly after Christ's ascension to Heaven, yet baptism was clearly directed. Same for Acts 16:30-34.

Now, does this mean that baptism is what saves a person? No, Christ's atonement does that, but the baptism matters because it marks the person. That is also why we are told about Christ's own baptism (Matthew
3:13-16), because it demonstrates the value of public observance of the rite.

Consider also that some fall away. I called upon Christ's own warnings in Matthew 5:13, 5:18-19, Mark 9:50, Matthew 7:16-17, and Mark 12:28-34.

The works do not earn Salvation, but are nonetheless the clear duty of any who would claim to belong to Christ.

All of this I have posted before, all of it in context and alignment with other Scripture. Frodo, sadly, refuses to do the same, but uses only Paul to support claims not made anywhere in Scripture, such as his insistence that Paul received "doctrine" from Christ Himself, something not even Peter claimed.

Now in all of this I have not been angry, but have used Scripture in context and from multiple sources, especially Christ's own words. I have also answered every question put to me, again something you have not done, nor has Frodo.

---

So, here's what you said: "So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows"

So, is it your position that works and water baptism are required for some, but not for all?

Your position is very confusing. On the one hand you said, "For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession." You did NOT include works and water baptism there.....but then you turn around and say that "that is not true for all", suggesting that they ARE required for some, referencing the story in Acts 8.

Can you clarify? How do you know when it is required, and when it is not?

I'd be in heaven right now if this thread would go away.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

---

Dusty, I would say it is you who is being confrontational. You have offered a binary choice, both of which I find false. The correct answer lies in Scripture, but you seem to fear that for some reason.

If you want to understand what is required for Salvation, simply look to the accounts of people who were saved. Saved from what, and how?

Frodo looks to unusual accounts, like the thief on the cross. What did we see there? Obviously, as he was about to die he could not do any works in service to God after that moment, nor obviously could he be baptised. In the Gospel accounts, the thief confirms in words that he is dying of his own sin and asks Christ to remember him when He is in Heaven (acceptance and belief and confession) upon which Jesus promises the thief he will be in Paradise with Jesus that day.

So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows. This was clearly after Christ's ascension to Heaven, yet baptism was clearly directed. Same for Acts 16:30-34.

Now, does this mean that baptism is what saves a person? No, Christ's atonement does that, but the baptism matters because it marks the person. That is also why we are told about Christ's own baptism (Matthew
3:13-16), because it demonstrates the value of public observance of the rite.

Consider also that some fall away. I called upon Christ's own warnings in Matthew 5:13, 5:18-19, Mark 9:50, Matthew 7:16-17, and Mark 12:28-34.

The works do not earn Salvation, but are nonetheless the clear duty of any who would claim to belong to Christ.

All of this I have posted before, all of it in context and alignment with other Scripture. Frodo, sadly, refuses to do the same, but uses only Paul to support claims not made anywhere in Scripture, such as his insistence that Paul received "doctrine" from Christ Himself, something not even Peter claimed.

Now in all of this I have not been angry, but have used Scripture in context and from multiple sources, especially Christ's own words. I have also answered every question put to me, again something you have not done, nor has Frodo.

---

So, here's what you said: "So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows"

So, is it your position that works and water baptism are required for some, but not for all?

Your position is very confusing. On the one hand you said, "For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession." You did NOT include works and water baptism there.....but then you turn around and say that "that is not true for all", suggesting that they ARE required for some, referencing the story in Acts 8.

Can you clarify? How do you know when it is required, and when it is not?

---

Scripture is actually pretty clear. The problems start when God asks for something a person does not want to do.

And you still have not answered me even once. Too hard a question?

Sam Lowry said:

---

I'd be in heaven right now if this thread would go away.

---

You don't have to read it, Sam. Although I am interested in your opinion of the matter, since IIRC you are a practicing Roman Catholic?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

---

The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

---

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?

---

Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home.

Now answer my question, please:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

(hint, see my prior references to Christ's quotes on that one)

---

If your answer is that it's God's verdict and not yours, then you are ignorant to that person's salvation status, which would mean that you DO NOT KNOW whether works and water baptism are requirements for salvation, that it may be in fact that they are NOT.....correct?

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that's all He wants from me. But that's different from the question of salvation.

---

Nice duck, but come on.

You cannot know someone's condition with the Lord. Consider how even Jesus' disciples did not realize it was Judas who would betray Him, nor Peter deny Him. If they had known, who among them would have known that Judas would die in his sin, while Peter would be restored?

It can be fun to play theoretical games, but we live in a world of real people. For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession.

I say it this way because Jesus warned us that

James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.


"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."

This is clear instruction, and should not be ignored.

---

Can you please answer my question? If you are saying you don't know whether that person is saved or not, you can NOT say that works and water baptism are required, correct? Let's lay aside the citing of scripture for a moment, and focus on this logically.

---

First, I have answered you plainly twice, a courtesy you have yet to return.

Second, this matter depends completely on Scripture in context.

Now please gut it up and answer my question, please.

---

I don't understand why you are being so angry and confrontational about this. All I want to know is your position on salvation, whether works and water baptism are REQUIRED. According to your response, it appears your answer is NO. Is that correct?

---

Dusty, I would say it is you who is being confrontational. You have offered a binary choice, both of which I find false. The correct answer lies in Scripture, but you seem to fear that for some reason.

If you want to understand what is required for Salvation, simply look to the accounts of people who were saved. Saved from what, and how?

Frodo looks to unusual accounts, like the thief on the cross. What did we see there? Obviously, as he was about to die he could not do any works in service to God after that moment, nor obviously could he be baptised. In the Gospel accounts, the thief confirms in words that he is dying of his own sin and asks Christ to remember him when He is in Heaven (acceptance and belief and confession) upon which Jesus promises the thief he will be in Paradise with Jesus that day.

So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows. This was clearly after Christ's ascension to Heaven, yet baptism was clearly directed. Same for Acts 16:30-34.

Now, does this mean that baptism is what saves a person? No, Christ's atonement does that, but the baptism matters because it marks the person. That is also why we are told about Christ's own baptism (Matthew
3:13-16), because it demonstrates the value of public observance of the rite.

Consider also that some fall away. I called upon Christ's own warnings in Matthew 5:13, 5:18-19, Mark 9:50, Matthew 7:16-17, and Mark 12:28-34.

The works do not earn Salvation, but are nonetheless the clear duty of any who would claim to belong to Christ.

All of this I have posted before, all of it in context and alignment with other Scripture. Frodo, sadly, refuses to do the same, but uses only Paul to support claims not made anywhere in Scripture, such as his insistence that Paul received "doctrine" from Christ Himself, something not even Peter claimed.

Now in all of this I have not been angry, but have used Scripture in context and from multiple sources, especially Christ's own words. I have also answered every question put to me, again something you have not done, nor has Frodo.

---

So, here's what you said: "So Frodo and others fall into the assumption that you don't need to be beptised or do anything to go to Heaven. But that is not true for all, as Acts 8:36-38 shows"

So, is it your position that works and water baptism are required for some, but not for all?

Your position is very confusing. On the one hand you said, "For the record, I believe that we are saved by the Atonement of Christ, as confirmed in Scripture, and that we receive the Grace of God through Acceptance, Belief and Confession." You did NOT include works and water baptism there.....but then you turn around and say that "that is not true for all", suggesting that they ARE required for some, referencing the story in Acts 8.

Can you clarify? How do you know when it is required, and when it is not?

---

Scripture is actually pretty clear. The problems start when God asks for something a person does not want to do.

And you still have not answered me even once. Too hard a question?

---

So, to be clear, it is your position that SOME need works and water baptism to be saved, and some do NOT? Can you at least tell me if I'm correct on that? I'm really trying to zero in on your belief, but you're being strangely evasive.

And I have absolutely no idea what question you are referring to that I haven't answered.

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And I have absolutely no idea what question you are referring to that I haven't answered.

---

You quoted it yourself, but did not answer. Here it is again:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And I have absolutely no idea what question you are referring to that I haven't answered.

---

You quoted it yourself, but did not answer. Here it is again:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

---

If you look back, that was answered.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And I have absolutely no idea what question you are referring to that I haven't answered.

---

You quoted it yourself, but did not answer. Here it is again:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

---

If you look back, that was answered.

---

I must have missed it, please repost it again.

Thanks.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

Dusty?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And I have absolutely no idea what question you are referring to that I haven't answered.

---

You quoted it yourself, but did not answer. Here it is again:

Once you accept Christ, is that all He wants from you? Or is there something He would like you to do?

---

Dusty?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

---

Let me try again -

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

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WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

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You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

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Let me try again -

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

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I have answered over and over, will wait for your to answer mine before I do that again.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

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Let me try again -

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

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I have answered over and over, will wait for your to answer mine before I do that again.

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Let me try again - it's your postion that YES, you need works for salvation? Is that correct?

You have been unclear, and you were contradictory, as I had explained above.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

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Let me try again -

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

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I have answered over and over, will wait for your to answer mine before I do that again.

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Let me try again - it's your postion that YES, you need works for salvation? Is that correct?

You have been unclear, as I had explained above.

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No, it's your turn to answer Dusty.

I have answered and answered, it's well past time for you to do the same.

'You have been unclear, and you were contradictory, as I had explained above."

Wrong.

I have taken pains to use Scripture to show support, and nothing I have written contradicts at all.

You seem to be trying very hard to claim I said things I did not, and you certainly have not answered even one of my questions.

At the least that is rude and disrespectful.

Answer my questions, and then I will be happy to explore my prior answers in greater detail and in the light of your own answers.

The idea is to increase understanding. As long it is a matter of ego, as seems to be the case for you and Frodo, the conversation cannot go anywhere good.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

You seem to want to argue, rather than gain wisdom, which is what we should all seek.

You will not answer my questions, nor accept my answers, even though I have taken pains to cite the relevant Scripture.

Please answer my questions, I would say the ball is still very much in your court.

---

Let me try again -

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

I have answered over and over, will wait for your to answer mine before I do that again.

---

Let me try again - it's your postion that YES, you need works for salvation? Is that correct?

You have been unclear, as I had explained above.

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No, it's your turn to answer Dusty.

I have answered and answered, it's well past time for you to do the same.

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You are STILL not answering, you are just evading.

One last time - are you saying YES, works and water baptism are REQUIRED for salvation? Yes? No? Yes for some, no for others?

Why can't you just give a clear, direct answer?

Dusty: "You are just evading."

Seriously?

I have answered you several times, I cannot help that you do not like or are failing to understand the answer. I even gave Scriptural support.

Now in comparison, you have not even TRIED to answer even one of my questions.

If anyone is "evading", you will see him if you check a mirror.

This is not your place to demand answers until you get what you want. This is a forum where people ask questions and post thoughts.

You have - again - made no effort to advance the discussion.

So no, I don't owe you an answer, you owe me three.

I will be happy to discuss your answers, and expand on my own, when you show the same respect and consideration I have already done for you.

If you continue to act like a boorish bully, you will get only what that deserves.

Oldbear83 said:

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Dusty: "You are just evading."

Seriously?

I have answered you several times, I cannot help that you do not like or are failing to understand the answer. I even gave Scriptural support.

Now in comparison, you have not even TRIED to answer even one of my questions.

If anyone is "evading", you will see him if you check a mirror.

This is not your place to demand answers until you get what you want. This is a forum where people ask questions and post thoughts.

You have - again - made no effort to advance the discussion.

So no, I don't owe you an answer, you owe me three.

I will be happy to discuss your answers, and expand on my own, when you show the same respect and consideration I have already done for you.

If you continue to act like a boorish bully, you will get only what that deserves.

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My question was the very first, before all of yours, and I could never get a straight answer from you. You could've answered it here, but you once again resorted to a long diatribe instead of simply giving a clear, direct answer.

I tried. I will move on to someone else who hopefully will be more forthcoming. Good night.

You have chosen the bully's recourse, then.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Believes what? That Salvation is by grace through faith alone? Most Protestant Churches in America. You are worried about which Denomination I belong to rather than what the Word of God actually says. Refute what I say Scripturally, because I adhere to the Word of God, not a Denomination.

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I'm not worried about anything. I'm curious about your theological formation because NO main-stream Christian church in the first 1800+ years has EVER taught that Jesus gave a different to the Jews and the Gentiles. Your eisegesis of the NT is distorting the Word of God. It is the exact reason why no one should listen to you.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Many of them may not REALIZE that's what they see in Scripture and believe and why but they believe that nonetheless because they see it in Scripture. The Catholic Church didn't start in AD 33, it started with Constantine and he mixed Paganism with Christianity, which is why you have idol worship intertiwined in the Catholic Church. Praying to Mary, the Sacred Heart, The vain Repetitions, trusting Sacraments and Good Works as part of your Salvation rather than the Finished Work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Adding to it is like saying that the Cross wasn't good enough, we need to add something to it.

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Wow. There's so much wrong with your statements here. Please Google "When did the Catholic Church start?" Use reputable sources like Britannica, Wikipedia, etc. The litany of other false statements are common, misinformed Protestant troupes. I will not be trolled by your "steamroller" attempt. If you have honest questions about the Catholic faith and what to know what we believe we can discuss them offline in PM's or you can go to Catholic Answers.com and type in your question. They have heard and answered everything MANY times.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Law=Good Works

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Wrong. From Catholic Answers: "Works of the law refer to acts undertaken to obey the Law of Moses, the fundamental law of Judaism."

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. KJV

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But Paul says in Ephesians 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

I've stated many times on here that Salvation is a free gift. We can do nothing to earn it. I just completely refute, and the Bible agrees that it is NOT done by faith ALONE.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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As far as no serious denomination taking my Doctrine, that is false. The issue is that the Catholic Church for hundreds of years, murdered anyone who held any doctrine that wasn't in accordance with their false Doctrine.

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Please provide scholarly sources of who was murdered, where and when they were murdered and the context of their murders.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and state that the Church hasn't had issues. For nearly 2000 years, the Church has had many bad laypersons, priests, bishops, and even a few bad Pope, but she has always taught the same truth reviled by Jesus and given to his apostles.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Many essential Doctrines had to be re discovered because they were lost. ... The Catholics destroyed all sound Doctrine and then when it's re Discovered act like no one ever believed that before.

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Please provide proof of your allegations that the Church destroyed your believed doctrines. Without proof, one can just as easily state that you are making up these claims.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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That's when the Reformation discovered many lost Doctrines by actually being able to READ the Scriptures that the Catholic Church HID and chained up for Centuries.

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The Catholic Church NEVER hid the Bible. Bibles in some churches were chained because they were VERY expensive to hand copy. They were stolen by people so they started chaining some of them. Believe it or not, but even in a daily mass, more bible is read aloud than you will find in an average Protestant service. Heck, more than 90% of the population was illiterate. But they heard the Word of God every Sunday at mass.

When Luther tried to add one word "Alone" to Romans 3:28:
We therefore conclude that a man is justified without the works of the law, only through faith ALONE (not in the Bible), people nearly rioted. The common man knew their scriptures.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Dispensationalism refines that Reformed Doctrine to a more proper interpretation of Scripture. Dispensationalism is based on what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say, not allegories and Church Traditions. Jesus taught against putting Traditions over Scripture.

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Finally, Dispensationalism didn't start until the 1850's. The Church, throughout the ages, has had the brightest minds (Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Robert Bellarmine, Ignatius of Loyola, etc) study the scriptures for 1800's prior to the invention of this off-shoot belief. They have always preached the same message.

Heck, I'd trust Luther and Calvin's theology which NEVER preached your false claims that the Gospels were written for the Jews and Paul's message was for the Gentiles. NO one has believed that thru History.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are STILL not answering, you are just evading.

One last time - are you saying YES, works and water baptism are REQUIRED for salvation? Yes? No? Yes for some, no for others?

Why can't you just give a clear, direct answer?

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I'll try to provide in the simplest way that I can to state the Catholic position.

All one needs to do to be saved are the following three things:

REPENT
BELIEVE
BE BAPTIZED

It is all Biblically based, and been taught for the entirety of Christianity.

Pretty simple, but a caveat does exist ... one must not commit a mortal sin.

If you have any questions about the Catholic view of Salvation, I'll do my best to answer them for you.