Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You are STILL not answering, you are just evading.

One last time - are you saying YES, works and water baptism are REQUIRED for salvation? Yes? No? Yes for some, no for others?

Why can't you just give a clear, direct answer?

---

I'll try to provide in the simplest way that I can to state the Catholic position.

All one needs to do to be saved are the following three things:

REPENT
BELIEVE
BE BAPTIZED

It is all Biblically based, and been taught for the entirety of Christianity.

Pretty simple, but a caveat does exist ... one must not commit a mortal sin.

If you have any questions about the Catholic view of Salvation, I'll do my best to answer them for you.

---

Thank you. I don't know why some can't just give a straightforward answer about their belief but instead want to get into a boxing match.

So does this mean that in the situation I presented where a person hears the gospel, believes, asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his trust in him, but dies before he gets baptized - it is your belief that he is NOT saved?

Quick question for the guys who think they can just demand an answer over and over on a forum until someone gives in and says what they want to hear:

If you get someone to become Christian through profession of faith, do you then tell them there is nothing more to do?

Why or why not?

BusyTD: "a person hears the gospel, believes, asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his trust in him, but dies before he gets baptized"

How many times have you actually experienced this specific series of events happen?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Thank you. I don't know why some can't just give a straightforward answer about their belief but instead want to get into a boxing match.

So does this mean that in the situation I presented where a person hears the gospel, believes, asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his trust in him, but dies before he gets baptized - it is your belief that he is NOT saved?

---

This is a great (and fair) question.

Most likely, this person would be saved (provided that they were not avoiding in, but merely haven't been able to be baptized before they died.)

What the Catholic Church teaches is that we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.

To the Catholic Church (and most mainline Protestants) a valid baptism is preformed by with proper form and matter - the baptizer says the words (FORM), "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit while water (WATER) is poured three times over the head or the person is submersed three times.

Having said that, the Church also teaches two other Baptisms (Blood and Desire). If a non-baptized person professes faith and is martyred (BLOOD) before they are baptized, they will be saved.

If a person, as you mentioned, dies after they profess faith and dies before they are baptized (DESIRE), they will be saved.

I hope this clears up some confusion, at least from the Catholic perspective.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Quick question for the guys who think they can just demand an answer over and over on a forum until someone gives in and says what they want to hear:

If you get someone to become Christian through profession of faith, do you then tell them there is nothing more to do?

Why or why not?

---

I see this thread's bullies remain unwilling to talk the real issue, so I will.

You can play 'angels on the head of a pin' if you want, and these fellows plainly do, but as followers of Christ we are commanded to rather more serious duties.

If and when it falls to you to speak to someone about being saved from their sin, it may sound great to knock down the process to essentials and imagine that is the job.

But if you do happen to be there when someone is willing to listen, to repent and to accept Christ, you are a damned fool (no pun intended) if you leave them at that point and imagine your work is done.

Part of the reason Christians need to attend church and worship, is because we are a community, not just a bunch of individual believers who are independent and complete once we become Christians.

Jesus warned - many times - about falling away, and if you pay attention Jesus told parable after parable about people who started but did not follow through

Yes, the thief on the cross went to Paradise that day he asked Jesus to remember him. That was an exception, not how the nominal Christian should grown and learn.

Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Thank you. I don't know why some can't just give a straightforward answer about their belief but instead want to get into a boxing match.

So does this mean that in the situation I presented where a person hears the gospel, believes, asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his trust in him, but dies before he gets baptized - it is your belief that he is NOT saved?

---

This is a great (and fair) question.

Most likely, this person would be saved (provided that they were not avoiding in, but merely haven't been able to be baptized before they died.)

What the Catholic Church teaches is that we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.

To the Catholic Church (and most mainline Protestants) a valid baptism is preformed by with proper form and matter - the baptizer says the words (FORM), "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit while water (WATER) is poured three times over the head or the person is submersed three times.

Having said that, the Church also teaches two other Baptisms (Blood and Desire). If a non-baptized person professes faith and is martyred (BLOOD) before they are baptized, they will be saved.

If a person, as you mentioned, dies after they profess faith and dies before they are baptized (DESIRE), they will be saved.

I hope this clears up some confusion, at least from the Catholic perspective.

---

So, to be clear, what if this person either because he was taught or he interpreted it for himself that water baptism was not necessary, therefore he did NOT have any desire. Then he is not saved, even though he truly believed in Jesus, and put his trust in him for salvation?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, what if this person either because he was taught or he interpreted it for himself that water baptism was not necessary, therefore he did NOT have any desire. Then he is not saved, even though he truly believed in Jesus, and put his trust in him for salvation?

---

Paragraph 1260 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

At face value of your question, it would appear that this person would be saved.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus plainly warned that some would fall away, and Scripture has accounts of believers who later fell to sin.

What would you do to prevent their loss?

What would you say caused their fall?

---

WHY won't you just answer what I'm asking?

Are you saying that YES, you need works for salvation?

---

That's exactly what he is saying, but he knows it contradicts the later Revelation when the Baptism is no longer water, but with the Holy Spirit when we Believe on Christ Baptizes the believer into Christ, NOT water Baptism. The error that they have is assuming that all Baptism is water Baptism and not believing Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles today. They want to follow the plan of John the Baptist, which was until Christ came.

John the Baptist baptized with water until his death. Jesus Christ Baptizes with the Holy Ghost:

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
(KJV)

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Acts tells us that it's the Holy Ghost that Baptized the believer into Christ:

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Peter was still preaching John's Baptism UNTIL Acts 11:16 that we see at the Bottom:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


When Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit continued to Baptize believers into Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


These men received the Holy Ghost WITHOUT water Baptism. Only believers who are saved have the Holy Ghost:

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

So, the Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that happens when we believe on Christ for Salvation:

Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Then Peter Clarifies that the Baptism is a Spiritual Baptism here, NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

(KJV)

I see you for what you are, Frodo.

You imagine you are "winning" these arguments, but all you are doing is arguing.

You help no one, you care about no one but your argument.

You are like those people who imagine a passing muttered prayer will do the hard work, rather than - like the Good Samaritan - stopping and actually doing something to help.

Jesus never said 'Believe and you're done', He said 'take up your cross and follow me'. In parable after parable, teaching after teaching, Jesus made clear we are meant to DO the Father's Will. He even said to his own mother that His brothers and sisters are those who DO God's will.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

That's exactly what he is saying, but he knows it contradicts the later Revelation when the Baptism is no longer water, but with the Holy Spirit when we Believe on Christ Baptizes the believer into Christ, NOT water Baptism. The error that they have is assuming that all Baptism is water Baptism and not believing Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles today. They want to follow the plan of John the Baptist, which was until Christ came.
John the Baptist baptized with water until his death. Jesus Christ Baptizes with the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fireKJV)
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Acts tells us that it's the Holy Ghost that Baptized the believer into Christ:
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter was still preaching John's Baptism UNTIL Acts 11:16 that we see at the Bottom:
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit continued to Baptize believers into Christ:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)

---

Once again, your eisegesis is showing. This is not saying that water is NOT necessary. John did not have the power or ability to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. When one is baptized, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit -
Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (NKJV)

As you know this is at Pentecost and what did Peter and the apostles do next in Acts 2:41 -

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

These men received the Holy Ghost WITHOUT water Baptism. Only believers who are saved have the Holy Ghost:
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
So, the Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that happens when we believe on Christ for Salvation:

---

Yes in this ONE instance when Peter, the head of the Church, spoke to them they received the Holy Spirit, but what did Peter IMMEDIATELY do next in Acts 10:48 -

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Then Peter Clarifies that the Baptism is a Spiritual Baptism here, NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus ChristKJV)

---

Your interpretation is incorrect again. The bolded portion (or in the NKJV - not the removal of the filth of the flesh) is a reference towards the washing that occurs when a person is submerged into water or water is poured upon them.

And what was Peter referencing baptism here to? Back up ONE verse and it tells us in 1 Peter 3:20 -

... when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

The flood is a prefigurement of baptism.

Finally, please look at Acts 8 when eunuch asked Phillip to explain the scriptures to him and the eunuch is so excited that he wants to be baptized and it states in Acts 8:38 -

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This eunuch was a Gentile, not a Jew.

Water is absolutely required for baptism.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, what if this person either because he was taught or he interpreted it for himself that water baptism was not necessary, therefore he did NOT have any desire. Then he is not saved, even though he truly believed in Jesus, and put his trust in him for salvation?

---

Paragraph 1260 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

At face value of your question, it would appear that this person would be saved.

---

So it seems that according to Catholicism that water baptism is an absolute necessity only for those who believe it is, and not for those who believe it isn't. Is that correct?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, what if this person either because he was taught or he interpreted it for himself that water baptism was not necessary, therefore he did NOT have any desire. Then he is not saved, even though he truly believed in Jesus, and put his trust in him for salvation?

---

Paragraph 1260 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

At face value of your question, it would appear that this person would be saved.

---

So it seems that according to Catholicism that water baptism is an absolute necessity only for those who believe it is, and not for those who believe it isn't. Is that correct?

---

Who is condemned in this verse? The person that believeth not. Nothing said about NOT getting baptized.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

That's exactly what he is saying, but he knows it contradicts the later Revelation when the Baptism is no longer water, but with the Holy Spirit when we Believe on Christ Baptizes the believer into Christ, NOT water Baptism. The error that they have is assuming that all Baptism is water Baptism and not believing Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles today. They want to follow the plan of John the Baptist, which was until Christ came.
John the Baptist baptized with water until his death. Jesus Christ Baptizes with the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fireKJV)
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Acts tells us that it's the Holy Ghost that Baptized the believer into Christ:
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter was still preaching John's Baptism UNTIL Acts 11:16 that we see at the Bottom:
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit continued to Baptize believers into Christ:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)

---

Once again, your eisegesis is showing. This is not saying that water is NOT necessary. John did not have the power or ability to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. When one is baptized, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit -
Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (NKJV)

As you know this is at Pentecost and what did Peter and the apostles do next in Acts 2:41 -

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

These men received the Holy Ghost WITHOUT water Baptism. Only believers who are saved have the Holy Ghost:
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
So, the Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that happens when we believe on Christ for Salvation:

---

Yes in this ONE instance when Peter, the head of the Church, spoke to them they received the Holy Spirit, but what did Peter IMMEDIATELY do next in Acts 10:48 -

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Then Peter Clarifies that the Baptism is a Spiritual Baptism here, NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus ChristKJV)

---

Your interpretation is incorrect again. The bolded portion (or in the NKJV - not the removal of the filth of the flesh) is a reference towards the washing that occurs when a person is submerged into water or water is poured upon them.

And what was Peter referencing baptism here to? Back up ONE verse and it tells us in 1 Peter 3:20 -

... when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

The flood is a prefigurement of baptism.

Finally, please look at Acts 8 when eunuch asked Phillip to explain the scriptures to him and the eunuch is so excited that he wants to be baptized and it states in Acts 8:38 -

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This eunuch was a Gentile, not a Jew.

Water is absolutely required for baptism.

---

Water Baptism is NOT the Baptism that saves, the Holy Spirit Baptism is. Even Jesus called His Death and Resurrection a Baptism. You can' get past the FACT that there are more than one type of Baptism in the Bible. It's NOT all water Baptism.

Acts 10:48 wasn't saying that Baptism saved them. It said that they were Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts is a transitional book until you get to Paul's Gospel of Grace. They were not being Baptized unto Salvation. They were being Baptized because Christ had already saved them by believing on Him. The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism) was done away with, which is why they they were Baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Not the removal of the filth of the flesh means, NOT by Water Baptism, BUT the answer of a good conscience toward God by (Faith in) the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What saved Noah? The Water or the Ark? The Ark. The water was the Judgement of God, the Ark represented Christ and what He did on the Cross for us. Christ's death and resurrection is what saves us from the Judgement of God, NOT Water Baptism.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was Baptized, but not for Salvation. What was required before he would be allowed to be water Baptized? The Eunuch had to profess His FAITH in Jesus Christ, (To be saved) and then be Baptized as a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ. Notice that it was by Immersion, not sprinkling or pouring which are also unBiblical.

Water is NOT required for Salvation, it is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes us which is why the Bible says it is by one Spirit that we are all Baptized into Christ. Can't be more clear than that. I am not against Water Baptism per se as an outward expression of a Spiritual Reality, but there is no saving power in the water. It's merely symbolic of what Christ does when a person trusts in Him alone for Salvation believing that He died and rose again for our sins. The Holy Spirit Baptizes believers into Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(KJV)

Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

That's exactly what he is saying, but he knows it contradicts the later Revelation when the Baptism is no longer water, but with the Holy Spirit when we Believe on Christ Baptizes the believer into Christ, NOT water Baptism. The error that they have is assuming that all Baptism is water Baptism and not believing Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles today. They want to follow the plan of John the Baptist, which was until Christ came.
John the Baptist baptized with water until his death. Jesus Christ Baptizes with the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fireKJV)
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Acts tells us that it's the Holy Ghost that Baptized the believer into Christ:
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter was still preaching John's Baptism UNTIL Acts 11:16 that we see at the Bottom:
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit continued to Baptize believers into Christ:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)

---

Once again, your eisegesis is showing. This is not saying that water is NOT necessary. John did not have the power or ability to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. When one is baptized, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit -
Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (NKJV)

As you know this is at Pentecost and what did Peter and the apostles do next in Acts 2:41 -

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

These men received the Holy Ghost WITHOUT water Baptism. Only believers who are saved have the Holy Ghost:
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
So, the Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that happens when we believe on Christ for Salvation:

---

Yes in this ONE instance when Peter, the head of the Church, spoke to them they received the Holy Spirit, but what did Peter IMMEDIATELY do next in Acts 10:48 -

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Then Peter Clarifies that the Baptism is a Spiritual Baptism here, NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus ChristKJV)

---

Your interpretation is incorrect again. The bolded portion (or in the NKJV - not the removal of the filth of the flesh) is a reference towards the washing that occurs when a person is submerged into water or water is poured upon them.

And what was Peter referencing baptism here to? Back up ONE verse and it tells us in 1 Peter 3:20 -

... when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

The flood is a prefigurement of baptism.

Finally, please look at Acts 8 when eunuch asked Phillip to explain the scriptures to him and the eunuch is so excited that he wants to be baptized and it states in Acts 8:38 -

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This eunuch was a Gentile, not a Jew.

Water is absolutely required for baptism.

---

Water Baptism is NOT the Baptism that saves, the Holy Spirit Baptism is. Even Jesus called His Death and Resurrection a Baptism. You can' get past the FACT that there are more than one type of Baptism in the Bible. It's NOT all water Baptism.

Acts 10:48 wasn't saying that Baptism saved them. It said that they were Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts is a transitional book until you get to Paul's Gospel of Grace. They were not being Baptized unto Salvation. They were being Baptized because Christ had already saved them by believing on Him. The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism) was done away with, which is why they they were Baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Not the removal of the filth of the flesh means, NOT by Water Baptism, BUT the answer of a good conscience toward God by (Faith in) the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What saved Noah? The Water or the Ark? The Ark. The water was the Judgement of God, the Ark represented Christ and what He did on the Cross for us. Christ's death and resurrection is what saves us from the Judgement of God, NOT Water Baptism.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was Baptized, but not for Salvation. What was required before he would be allowed to be water Baptized? The Eunuch had to profess His FAITH in Jesus Christ, (To be saved) and then be Baptized as a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ. Notice that it was by Immersion, not sprinkling or pouring which are also unBiblical.

Water is NOT required for Salvation, it is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes us which is why the Bible says it is by one Spirit that we are all Baptized into Christ. Can't be more clear than that. I am not against Water Baptism per se as an outward expression of a Spiritual Reality, but there is no saving power in the water. It's merely symbolic of what Christ does when a person trusts in Him alone for Salvation believing that He died and rose again for our sins. The Holy Spirit Baptizes believers into Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(KJV)

Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

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Did any one really bother to read this entire pile of minutiae ?

KaiBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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That's exactly what he is saying, but he knows it contradicts the later Revelation when the Baptism is no longer water, but with the Holy Spirit when we Believe on Christ Baptizes the believer into Christ, NOT water Baptism. The error that they have is assuming that all Baptism is water Baptism and not believing Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles today. They want to follow the plan of John the Baptist, which was until Christ came.
John the Baptist baptized with water until his death. Jesus Christ Baptizes with the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fireKJV)
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Acts tells us that it's the Holy Ghost that Baptized the believer into Christ:
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter was still preaching John's Baptism UNTIL Acts 11:16 that we see at the Bottom:
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When Christ ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit continued to Baptize believers into Christ:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.(KJV)

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Once again, your eisegesis is showing. This is not saying that water is NOT necessary. John did not have the power or ability to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. When one is baptized, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit -
Acts 2:38 -
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (NKJV)

As you know this is at Pentecost and what did Peter and the apostles do next in Acts 2:41 -

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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These men received the Holy Ghost WITHOUT water Baptism. Only believers who are saved have the Holy Ghost:
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
So, the Baptism that saves is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that happens when we believe on Christ for Salvation:

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Yes in this ONE instance when Peter, the head of the Church, spoke to them they received the Holy Spirit, but what did Peter IMMEDIATELY do next in Acts 10:48 -

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Then Peter Clarifies that the Baptism is a Spiritual Baptism here, NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus ChristKJV)

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Your interpretation is incorrect again. The bolded portion (or in the NKJV - not the removal of the filth of the flesh) is a reference towards the washing that occurs when a person is submerged into water or water is poured upon them.

And what was Peter referencing baptism here to? Back up ONE verse and it tells us in 1 Peter 3:20 -

... when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

The flood is a prefigurement of baptism.

Finally, please look at Acts 8 when eunuch asked Phillip to explain the scriptures to him and the eunuch is so excited that he wants to be baptized and it states in Acts 8:38 -

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This eunuch was a Gentile, not a Jew.

Water is absolutely required for baptism.

---

Water Baptism is NOT the Baptism that saves, the Holy Spirit Baptism is. Even Jesus called His Death and Resurrection a Baptism. You can' get past the FACT that there are more than one type of Baptism in the Bible. It's NOT all water Baptism.

Acts 10:48 wasn't saying that Baptism saved them. It said that they were Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts is a transitional book until you get to Paul's Gospel of Grace. They were not being Baptized unto Salvation. They were being Baptized because Christ had already saved them by believing on Him. The Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism) was done away with, which is why they they were Baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Not the removal of the filth of the flesh means, NOT by Water Baptism, BUT the answer of a good conscience toward God by (Faith in) the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What saved Noah? The Water or the Ark? The Ark. The water was the Judgement of God, the Ark represented Christ and what He did on the Cross for us. Christ's death and resurrection is what saves us from the Judgement of God, NOT Water Baptism.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was Baptized, but not for Salvation. What was required before he would be allowed to be water Baptized? The Eunuch had to profess His FAITH in Jesus Christ, (To be saved) and then be Baptized as a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ. Notice that it was by Immersion, not sprinkling or pouring which are also unBiblical.

Water is NOT required for Salvation, it is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes us which is why the Bible says it is by one Spirit that we are all Baptized into Christ. Can't be more clear than that. I am not against Water Baptism per se as an outward expression of a Spiritual Reality, but there is no saving power in the water. It's merely symbolic of what Christ does when a person trusts in Him alone for Salvation believing that He died and rose again for our sins. The Holy Spirit Baptizes believers into Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(KJV)

Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

---

Did any one really bother to read this entire pile of minutiae ?

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Pretty sure Frodo reads it every day, like a personal mantra.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

---

We've reached an impasse. We are not going to change each others minds. We need to agree to disagree and roll on.

I, apparently have not done the best job explaining Church teaching AND I believe your understanding of this topic flawed. Probably no fault of your own. You were taught these beliefs my someone close to you. I understand your desire to keep and hold them.

Your position of baptism is not supported in Church history. It only dates back about 150 years. I find evidence of Church fathers believing in water baptism going back to Justin Martyr 151 AD and many more after him (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Augustine, etc.)

My Baptist brothers on this post may not accept the writings of these men, but I bet they understand the general principles that water baptism has been consistently taught since the beginning of Christianity. One cannot deny history.

Finally, I, nor anyone here, should trust YOUR interpretation of the scriptures, because that's all they are ... YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Most of Christianity does not accept them.

I wish you the best. I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for you.

Peace out.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

---

We've reached an impasse. We are not going to change each others minds. We need to agree to disagree and roll on.

I, apparently have not done the best job explaining Church teaching AND I believe your understanding of this topic flawed. Probably no fault of your own. You were taught these beliefs my someone close to you. I understand your desire to keep and hold them.

Your position of baptism is not supported in Church history. It only dates back about 150 years. I find evidence of Church fathers believing in water baptism going back to Justin Martyr 151 AD and many more after him (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Augustine, etc.)

My Baptist brothers on this post may not accept the writings of these men, but I bet they understand the general principles that water baptism has been consistently taught since the beginning of Christianity. One cannot deny history.

Finally, I, nor anyone here, should trust YOUR interpretation of the scriptures, because that's all they are ... YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Most of Christianity does not accept them.

I wish you the best. I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for you.

Peace out.

---

Well said, thanks Coke Bear.

And for the record, as a Southern Baptist I disagree with a lot of CB's opinions here, since he takes the RC position. But that in no way means he is not a brother in Christ, or takes away from the value of his insights and explanations.

Finally, he makes an excellent point regarding interpretation. Part of why we are a community in Christ, is because we are to be there for each other, providing support and sometimes correction. And just as we should not build our opinion only on what we like to believe, but should consider the advice of others, so too we should not depend on just one source for an interpretation, such as only listening to Paul

There are dozens of books in Scripture, and they are all consistent where the Gospel and Doctrine are concerned. And if we give the most weight to one person, I would submit we should first and last look to the teachings and example of Christ our Lord.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

---

We've reached an impasse. We are not going to change each others minds. We need to agree to disagree and roll on.

I, apparently have not done the best job explaining Church teaching AND I believe your understanding of this topic flawed. Probably no fault of your own. You were taught these beliefs my someone close to you. I understand your desire to keep and hold them.

Your position of baptism is not supported in Church history. It only dates back about 150 years. I find evidence of Church fathers believing in water baptism going back to Justin Martyr 151 AD and many more after him (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Augustine, etc.)

My Baptist brothers on this post may not accept the writings of these men, but I bet they understand the general principles that water baptism has been consistently taught since the beginning of Christianity. One cannot deny history.

Finally, I, nor anyone here, should trust YOUR interpretation of the scriptures, because that's all they are ... YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Most of Christianity does not accept them.

I wish you the best. I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for you.

Peace out.

---

You are an articulate, kind man.

Usually learn something from your posts.

Well done.

Whenever the New Testament describes the purpose of our baptism it connects it to something necessary for salvation. Acts 2: 38; we are baptized for the remission of sin. Romans 6: 3,4; we are baptized to be united with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. We can't go to heaven still guilty of our sin or apart from Jesus.

Baptism is NOT a work of merit that can earn salvation. It is not something we do for God or for anyone else so it can't earn anything. God freely washes away our sin, something we can't do ourselves. Baptism is part of God's free grace.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

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I'd argue no one here is 100% sure.

If a Muslim and a Christian are both asked the question, "Are you certain of going to heaven?" both of them would confidently say "yes." Given the principle that two opposing claims cannot be simultaneously true, yet both individuals express certainty in their beliefs, how do we discern who possesses the correct guide to achieving this outcome?

BearWithMe said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

---

I'd argue no one here is 100% sure.

If a Muslim and a Christian are both asked the question, "Are you certain of going to heaven?" both of them would confidently say "yes." Given the principle that two opposing claims cannot be simultaneously true, yet both individuals express certainty in their beliefs, how do we discern who possesses the correct guide to achieving this outcome?

---

Why stop there? Let's add a Buddhist, a Mormon, and Donald Trump.

I'm sure there would be those quick to vote on who they believe is in or out, but when you get down to it, none of makes that call.

I therefore stop and try to see how God would look at the matter.

God made all people, and from every credible text I have read, He wants us all to come home safe. Really, the only reason we don't is because we are rebellious and angry. If and when we turn away from our selfish and petty natures and think about what kind of person we want to be, God is there to offer a way home.

Any, perhaps all, can come home if they listen to God. Any, maybe all, will fail to go to heaven if they depend on their own wisdom and character.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required by Salvation. Water is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for God to Baptize a person into Christ. Water is a physical symbol of a spiritual reality.

---

We've reached an impasse. We are not going to change each others minds. We need to agree to disagree and roll on.

I, apparently have not done the best job explaining Church teaching AND I believe your understanding of this topic flawed. Probably no fault of your own. You were taught these beliefs my someone close to you. I understand your desire to keep and hold them.

Your position of baptism is not supported in Church history. It only dates back about 150 years. I find evidence of Church fathers believing in water baptism going back to Justin Martyr 151 AD and many more after him (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Augustine, etc.)

My Baptist brothers on this post may not accept the writings of these men, but I bet they understand the general principles that water baptism has been consistently taught since the beginning of Christianity. One cannot deny history.

Finally, I, nor anyone here, should trust YOUR interpretation of the scriptures, because that's all they are ... YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Most of Christianity does not accept them.

I wish you the best. I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for you.

Peace out.

---

My position goes all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. It's Biblical. Also, Many in the Reformation back in the 1600s didn't believe that WATER Baptism saves a person. Baptists do NOT believe that WATER Baptism has anything to do with Salvation. Baptist is the #1 Protestant Denomination, so don't act like it's a fringe wing of Christianity. Presbyterians and Methodists don't believe that way either. Neither do Wesleyans or Nazarenes. As far as I know it's only Lutherans and Catholics who believe the way you do about WATER Baptism.

No one should trust YOUR interpretation of Scripture because it's FALSE.

I have the Holy Spirit, so you know. The Lord has spoken to me and performed true miracles in my family. He told me to go to my last 2 Churches, one is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and the other was a Southern Baptist Church. Neither of them believe that WATER Baptism has any part in Salvation, but they do WATER Baptize as a symbol of what Christ did on the cross to pay for our sins.

Oldbear83 said:

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BearWithMe said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

---

I'd argue no one here is 100% sure.

If a Muslim and a Christian are both asked the question, "Are you certain of going to heaven?" both of them would confidently say "yes." Given the principle that two opposing claims cannot be simultaneously true, yet both individuals express certainty in their beliefs, how do we discern who possesses the correct guide to achieving this outcome?

---

Why stop there? Let's add a Buddhist, a Mormon, and Donald Trump.

I'm sure there would be those quick to vote on who they believe is in or out, but when you get down to it, none of makes that call.

I therefore stop and try to see how God would look at the matter.

God made all people, and from every credible text I have read, He wants us all to come home safe. Really, the only reason we don't is because we are rebellious and angry. If and when we turn away from our selfish and petty natures and think about what kind of person we want to be, God is there to offer a way home.

Any, perhaps all, can come home if they listen to God. Any, maybe all, will fail to go to heaven if they depend on their own wisdom and character.

---

Absolutely, you can insert any religion or framework of spiritual faith here. Essentially, the point I was alluding to is I don't find people stating "I have the blueprint to getting into heaven in the afterlife (which I know exists): you need to believe X, perform Y on Thursday nights, and cut off Z" to be constructive.

Frodo: "I have the Holy Spirit, so you know"

It's what you are doing to the Holy Spirit which has some of us concerned, Frodo.

As for claiming you are holier than others here, Jesus had some sharp words on that topic.

"you need to believe X, perform Y on Thursday nights, and cut off Z""

I believe that to some degree. That is, I believe what Jesus said and did, set a clear example for us.

I also believe, however, that cutting off your own Z is extreme and does more harm than good.

The sun being blackened, the moon turning to blood, stars falling in the sky, the heavens rolling up like a scroll...I would call that petrifying....

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The sun being blackened, the moon turning to blood, stars falling in the sky, the heavens rolling up like a scroll...I would call that petrifying....

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That's what is happening in your neighborhood, Frodo? I agree you should not ignore that ...

Oldbear83 said:

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"you need to believe X, perform Y on Thursday nights, and cut off Z""

I believe that to some degree. That is, I believe what Jesus said and did, set a clear example for us.

I also believe, however, that cutting off your own Z is extreme and does more harm than good.

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I respect your transparency as well as open mindedness. I'm interested in trying to learn why those of different viewpoints come to their conclusions & beliefs; looks like it's a pretty fun bunch here on the Religion & Politics side haha

xfrodobagginsx said:

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My position goes all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. It's Biblical. Also, Many in the Reformation back in the 1600s didn't believe that WATER Baptism saves a person. Baptists do NOT believe that WATER Baptism has anything to do with Salvation. Baptist is the #1 Protestant Denomination, so don't act like it's a fringe wing of Christianity. Presbyterians and Methodists don't believe that way either. Neither do Wesleyans or Nazarenes. As far as I know it's only Lutherans and Catholics who believe the way you do about WATER Baptism.

No one should trust YOUR interpretation of Scripture because it's FALSE.

I have the Holy Spirit, so you know. The Lord has spoken to me and performed true miracles in my family. He told me to go to my last 2 Churches, one is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and the other was a Southern Baptist Church. Neither of them believe that WATER Baptism has any part in Salvation, but they do WATER Baptize as a symbol of what Christ did on the cross to pay for our sins.

---

I have the Holy Spirit too. I received it in Baptism and then I was given the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Wisdom, Understanding, Council, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord) in Confirmation.

I've seen miracles in my family as well, but I still disagree your your interpretations.

I will agree that Baptists do NOT believe in Baptismal Regeneration - the removal of Original Sin. They regard baptism, as I understand it, as a symbol as something we should do. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it calls baptism a symbol. But that's not the point here. (Oldbear83 and I have had that discuss before, no point in rehashing it now.)

You have now changed your claims now about baptism itself. I have understood you as stating that 'water was NOT necessary for baptism' because one can be baptized "in the spirit".

That was the main point of our conversation. Water vs. Spirit. You stated that your position goes all the way back to the Bible. I provided historical examples that show that NO ONE believed that for 1800 years.

On the other hand, Baptismal Regeneration is believed by Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Church of Christ, and even LDS (although the Church would not recognized their baptisms because they have a different view of God - but that's a different story).

The first person to deny Baptismal Regeneration was Ulrich Zwingli - in the 1520's. As far as I can tell, he never rejected water being used in Baptism, just regeneration itself.

I presented the Catholic view of Baptism. You rejected it. I can't control that. We're not going to change each others minds. That really isn't my job. That's the Holy Spirit's job. My job is to merely sew seeds. I'm not sure what ground they'll fall on.

As I've stated in my last point, I'm done with "Baptism" here unless someone else has questions for me. We've beat this to death.

I do wish you well. Peace.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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My position goes all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. It's Biblical. Also, Many in the Reformation back in the 1600s didn't believe that WATER Baptism saves a person. Baptists do NOT believe that WATER Baptism has anything to do with Salvation. Baptist is the #1 Protestant Denomination, so don't act like it's a fringe wing of Christianity. Presbyterians and Methodists don't believe that way either. Neither do Wesleyans or Nazarenes. As far as I know it's only Lutherans and Catholics who believe the way you do about WATER Baptism.

No one should trust YOUR interpretation of Scripture because it's FALSE.

I have the Holy Spirit, so you know. The Lord has spoken to me and performed true miracles in my family. He told me to go to my last 2 Churches, one is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and the other was a Southern Baptist Church. Neither of them believe that WATER Baptism has any part in Salvation, but they do WATER Baptize as a symbol of what Christ did on the cross to pay for our sins.

---

I have the Holy Spirit too. I received it in Baptism and then I was given the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Wisdom, Understanding, Council, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord) in Confirmation.

I've seen miracles in my family as well, but I still disagree your your interpretations.

I will agree that Baptists do NOT believe in Baptismal Regeneration - the removal of Original Sin. They regard baptism, as I understand it, as a symbol as something we should do. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it calls baptism a symbol. But that's not the point here. (Oldbear83 and I have had that discuss before, no point in rehashing it now.)

You have now changed your claims now about baptism itself. I have understood you as stating that 'water was NOT necessary for baptism' because one can be baptized "in the spirit".

That was the main point of our conversation. Water vs. Spirit. You stated that your position goes all the way back to the Bible. I provided historical examples that show that NO ONE believed that for 1800 years.

On the other hand, Baptismal Regeneration is believed by Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Church of Christ, and even LDS (although the Church would not recognized their baptisms because they have a different view of God - but that's a different story).

The first person to deny Baptismal Regeneration was Ulrich Zwingli - in the 1520's. As far as I can tell, he never rejected water being used in Baptism, just regeneration itself.

I presented the Catholic view of Baptism. You rejected it. I can't control that. We're not going to change each others minds. That really isn't my job. That's the Holy Spirit's job. My job is to merely sew seeds. I'm not sure what ground they'll fall on.

As I've stated in my last point, I'm done with "Baptism" here unless someone else has questions for me. We've beat this to death.

I do wish you well. Peace.

---

MOST verses that explain Salvation, say absolutely NOTHING about WATER Baptism. If it were necessary for Salvation, the Bible would include it in the MANY verses that omit Baptism all together. I am not against WATER Baptism as a symbol of what Christ did on the Cross to pay for our sins, but I reject that it's part of my Salvation.

I said that Water Baptism is not necessary for Salvation because it's the Holy Spirit that Baptizes the Believer into the Body of Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

We access the Father by the Holy Spirit not Water Baptism:


18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

It is the Gospel that saves, not Baptism. That's why Paul was called to preach THE GOSPEL:

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

The Gospel is what saves, not water Baptism:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {keep...: or, hold fast} {what: Gr. by what speech}
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. {one...: or, an abortive}

Faith of Jesus Christ is what makes a man a Child of God, NOT water Baptism:

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Yes my position goes all the way back to the Bible. Read the book of Romans. It's pretty clear if you actually read it. Also, I don't know about Methodists believing the err that water Baptism saves, maybe they do, but Baptists, Presbyterians, Wesleyan's, Nazarenes, Pentecostals do NOT believe Water Baptism saves. Water Baptism is NEVER said to get rid of Original sin. That's not Biblical at all. Completely false.

Sorry Frodo, Christ died for my sins, not Paul. And both Jesus and Paul would tell you that you are not serving the Holy Spirit here.

Oldbear83 said:

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Sorry Frodo, Christ died for my sins, not Paul. And both Jesus and Paul would tell you that you are not serving the Holy Spirit here.

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Sorry, but the RISEN Christ is who called Paul into his Ministry and made him an Apostle and inspired his writings.

This was written by LUKE.

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

You are going against CHRIST by rejecting Paul's writings.'

Peter Writes THIS of Paul:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
(KJV)

Paul met with the 12 and they approved of his Gospel:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

Peter was silent on whether you don't need baptism

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

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Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).