Frofo: "You are going against CHRIST by rejecting Paul's writings.'"

Wrong. Have to remind you again, Frodo, Paul is NOT Christ.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

---

Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).

---

Why does it mattet? You can't discern that it pertains to the debate here on whether water baptism is required for salvation or not?

The question isn't whether once saved, always saved. You are answering my question with a different question.

Do you have a position on my question, which was first?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

---

Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).

---

The question isn't whether once saved, always saved. You are answering my question with a different question.

Do you have a position on my question, which was first?

---

Your question is irrelevant. If you bother to read what you copied, you will see that.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

---

Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).

---

The question isn't whether once saved, always saved. You are answering my question with a different question.

Do you have a position on my question, which was first?

---

Your question is irrelevant. If you bother to read what you copied, you will see that.

---

How is it irrelevant? It goes directly to the question of whether or not water baptism is required for salvation. Which, if you couldn't tell, is the heated debate here.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

---

Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).

---

The question isn't whether once saved, always saved. You are answering my question with a different question.

Do you have a position on my question, which was first?

---

Your question is irrelevant. If you bother to read what you copied, you will see that.

---

How is it irrelevant? It goes directly to the question of whether or not water baptism is required for salvation. Which, if you couldn't tell, is the heated debate here.

---

Nope.

I have argued all along, and maybe been ignored, that arguing things that will never matter in real life is stupid in this topic.

It's like claiming you won't get shark bit if you wear a certain brand of swim shorts.

What I see as dangerous here, is the arrogant idea that once you have told someone the Gospel, that's all you are bound by duty to do. In many cases that is not true at all, and if you really care for neighbor's soul, you will focus on what can make the difference, even when it's inconvenient.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person hears the gospel, believes, and places his trust in Jesus for his salvation. The church schedules a water baptism for him in one week.

Question: when did he get saved - after belief, or one week later after he was water baptized?

---

Why does it matter?

Let me ask you this:

Suppose a person hears the Gospel, believes and places his trust in Jesus.

The person who got him to hear the Gospel leaves, believing he has done all that is necessary.

The new Christian falls away and goes back to his old habits, and soon after dies in a car accident while after driving home drunk from his time with the prostitute.

Did he get saved and lose it, or was he never really saved?

(spoiler alert - what matters is whether someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian in truth. All this other arguing is useless and of no value in that matter).

---

The question isn't whether once saved, always saved. You are answering my question with a different question.

Do you have a position on my question, which was first?

---

Your question is irrelevant. If you bother to read what you copied, you will see that.

---

How is it irrelevant? It goes directly to the question of whether or not water baptism is required for salvation. Which, if you couldn't tell, is the heated debate here.

---

Nope.

I have argued all along, and maybe been ignored, that arguing things that will never matter in real life is stupid in this topic.

It's like claiming you won't get shark bit if you wear a certain brand of swim shorts.

What I see as dangerous here, is the arrogant idea that once you have told someone the Gospel, that's all you are bound by duty to do. In many cases that is not true at all, and if you really care for neighbor's soul, you will focus on what can make the difference, even when it's inconvenient.

---

If you think the matter of whether water baptism is required to gain salvation, a question that any Christian who is interested in their eternal destiny should most certainly care about, is something that "will never matter in real life", then you're free to stay out of the discussion. Frankly, I think it strange that a professed Christian would be so dismissive of such an important topic where salvation is on the line - you know, the most important topic in Christianity.

I'm only interested in discussing this with those who wish to engage the topic. So if you won't answer my questions, then please ignore.

"you're free to stay out of the discussion. "

Like it or not, my point is completely relevant. Yours, frankly, is not.

Check the thread title about the topic, btw.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"you're free to stay out of the discussion. "

Like it or not, my point is completely relevant. Yours, frankly, is not.

Check the thread title about the topic, btw.

---

The thread title is "how to get to heaven when you die".

The point regarding whether or not water baptism is how to get to heaven when you die......

......you're saying is irrelevant?!


Brother, something is really disrupting your discernment or your honesty. I think it's pride.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"you're free to stay out of the discussion. "

Like it or not, my point is completely relevant. Yours, frankly, is not.

Check the thread title about the topic, btw.

---

The thread title is "how to get to heaven when you die".

The point regarding whether or not water baptism is how to get to heaven when you die......

......you're saying is irrelevant?!


Brother, something is really disrupting your discernment or your honesty. I think it's pride.

---

Funny, I see the opposite.

How to get to Heaven is the topic.

The only relevant question for this topic is what is needed for this. I would think that any serious believer would hope for as many as possible to be saved, so we should be sensitive to what is necessary and not just assume some minimal effort will be enough.

Jesus was actually very clear about what is needed if you pay attention, so I am concerned by Frodo's insistence that we ignore Jesus and instead depend on his personal interpretation of Paul's teachings.

I certainly believe that Paul was a real Christian, but on this matter it seems crazy to ignore three years of parables and examples by Christ. It also makes no sense to cherry pick Paul's own teachings. Paul, you may remember, wrote that he was careful to observe kosher dietary rules when eating with an observant Jew, not because the dietary law was still in effect, but to avoid leading the other person astray if he did not understand what was required by God. 'A Jew to the Jews' is good advice, since people new to the faith are vulnerable.

So with that in mind, why would you make a point of saying baptism is not necessary? I certainly agree that it is Christ's atonement on the cross which is efficacious for all, and it is faith which causes someone to ask Jesus to come into their life, but to make a point of excluding and discounting the emotional and personal value of things like ceremonial baptism is - I believe - to cheapen Christ's own example in being baptised Himself.

Please, if you disagree and I expect you will, please explain the reason for Christ's baptism, and cite where Jesus said it was not important. I honestly have not found anything of the sort.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"you're free to stay out of the discussion. "

Like it or not, my point is completely relevant. Yours, frankly, is not.

Check the thread title about the topic, btw.

---

The thread title is "how to get to heaven when you die".

The point regarding whether or not water baptism is how to get to heaven when you die......

......you're saying is irrelevant?!


Brother, something is really disrupting your discernment or your honesty. I think it's pride.

---

Funny, I see the opposite.

How to get to Heaven is the topic.

The only relevant question for this topic is what is needed for this. I would think that any serious believer would hope for as many as possible to be saved, so we should be sensitive to what is necessary and not just assume some minimal effort will be enough.

Jesus was actually very clear about what is needed if you pay attention, so I am concerned by Frodo's insistence that we ignore Jesus and instead depend on his personal interpretation of Paul's teachings.

I certainly believe that Paul was a real Christian, but on this matter it seems crazy to ignore three years of parables and examples by Christ. It also makes no sense to cherry pick Paul's own teachings. Paul, you may remember, wrote that he was careful to observe kosher dietary rules when eating with an observant Jew, not because the dietary law was still in effect, but to avoid leading the other person astray if he did not understand what was required by God. 'A Jew to the Jews' is good advice, since people new to the faith are vulnerable.

So with that in mind, why would you make a point of saying baptism is not necessary? I certainly agree that it is Christ's atonement on the cross which is efficacious for all, and it is faith which causes someone to ask Jesus to come into their life, but to make a point of excluding and discounting the emotional and personal value of things like ceremonial baptism is - I believe - to cheapen Christ's own example in being baptised Himself.

Please, if you disagree and I expect you will, please explain the reason for Christ's baptism, and cite where Jesus said it was not important. I honestly have not found anything of the sort.

---

NO ONE is saying that water baptism isn't important or special, or that Jesus didn't regard it as such. You've just been arguing with yourself the whole time and not engaging with the topic of whether water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation - meaning, that if you do not get baptized, you will NOT go to heaven. That would be a HUGE deal if you can have faith in Jesus but still go to hell because you didn't perform a required ritual. It is quite alarming that you treat this as unimportant. And also it has everything to do with the topic of this thread, so it is quite concerning that you consider it "irrelevant" to the thread topic. It really puts into question your discernment and/or honesty, and the spirit behind your comments.

Go back and read Frodo's posts on that matter. You don't seem to have noticed what he is saying.

And your tone is so angry and bitter, where does that come from?

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

Oldbear83 said:

---

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

---

Like your last 10+ posts?

Since we are discussing what matters, what is important, here is what Jesus taught:

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."


Mark 12:28-34

Note how Jesus tied love for God with love for your neighbor.

And this is what He said was 'important'.


Consider also how Jesus warned that what we have could be taken away:

""Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."

"When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them."

Matthew 21:43-45

There are two warnings here. First, not to become arrogant in our positions as teachers, lest we become like those Pharisees. And second, that the Kingdom of God belongs to those who produce good fruit.

So while we are not saved by works, but by the work of Christ, we nonetheless surely are instructed to do our Master's work, which is to follow His example and teaching.


Don't forget that in Matthew 24:10 Jesus warned that many would turn away from the faith, and in John 6:66 many of His own disciples left Jesus because He warned that they would not accept the Father.

Now regarding Baptism, I ask you plainly; if Baptism does not matter, why did even Jesus make sure to be baptised in front of a crowd?

Before you bring it up, yes the thief on the cross was redeemed without being baptised. And I am sure that there are others who came to Christ without being baptised in water. With that said, however, there is no verse in Scripture where Christ - or indeed any apostle - condemned baptism or said it was not necessary.

There have been many arguments on the question of baptism, and sadly some have resorted to angry words which seem to be from anyplace but the Holy Spirit. I remind everyone that there was strong disagreement at one time between Peter and Paul, two Titans of Christian faith. imagine if they had handled their dispute the way we see here?

Consider in Matthew 25, the Parable of the Ten Virgins. These were true virgins and they believed in the 'Bridegroom', yet some of them were denied entry to the wedding. Is this not a warning that belief without following through may lead to shame?

Or in the same chapter, the Parable of the Bags of Gold. See how some received more than the others. Is this not a reminder how we are not the same in our talents, our needs, or our position? What one man needs to find his way home, may be different from what someone else needs.

We are not saved by our works, but we are commissioned to show good fruit.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

---

Like your last 10+ posts?

---

Well, let's look at some of those:


7/13 8:45 AM
"If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

7/13 8:48 AM
"See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action."

7/13 8:52 AM
"Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands."

7/13 8:55 AM
" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother."
7/13 4:27 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

7/15 12:42 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
7/15 12:56 PM
"Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

7/15 5:17 PM
"Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home."

7/15 5:45 PM
"James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.

"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."


7/17, 4:24 PM
"Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'."

I think I have produced a great deal of Scripture.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

---

Like your last 10+ posts?

---

Well, let's look at some of those:


7/13 8:45 AM
"If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

7/13 8:48 AM
"See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action."

7/13 8:52 AM
"Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands."

7/13 8:55 AM
" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother."
7/13 4:27 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

7/15 12:42 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
7/15 12:56 PM
"Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

7/15 5:17 PM
"Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home."

7/15 5:45 PM
"James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.

"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."


7/17, 4:24 PM
"Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'."

I think I have produced a great deal of Scripture.

---

None of those were in your last 10 posts.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

---

Like your last 10+ posts?

---

Well, let's look at some of those:


7/13 8:45 AM
"If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

7/13 8:48 AM
"See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action."

7/13 8:52 AM
"Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands."

7/13 8:55 AM
" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother."
7/13 4:27 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

7/15 12:42 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
7/15 12:56 PM
"Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

7/15 5:17 PM
"Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home."

7/15 5:45 PM
"James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.

"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."


7/17, 4:24 PM
"Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'."

I think I have produced a great deal of Scripture.

---

None of those were in your last 10 posts.

---

1. You did say "10+"

2. I have cited more Scripture than anyone else here

3. You planning to ignore my most recent post, you know, with Scripture and all?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

---

Like your last 10+ posts?

---

Well, let's look at some of those:


7/13 8:45 AM
"If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

7/13 8:48 AM
"See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action."

7/13 8:52 AM
"Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands."

7/13 8:55 AM
" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother."
7/13 4:27 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

7/15 12:42 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
7/15 12:56 PM
"Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

7/15 5:17 PM
"Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home."

7/15 5:45 PM
"James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.

"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."


7/17, 4:24 PM
"Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'."

I think I have produced a great deal of Scripture.

---

None of those were in your last 10 posts.

---

1. You did say "10+"

2. I have cited more Scripture than anyone else here

3. You planning to ignore my most recent post, you know, with Scripture and all?

---

10+ means 10 and more. It doesn't mean all your posts. And your previous 12 posts applied.

And interesting how with all your scripture quoting, you were completely unable to answer my questions about water baptism.

What spirit prompted that post, Dusty?

Oldbear83 said:

---

What spirit prompted that post, Dusty?

---

What spirit is behind telling you the truth? What I said is exactly correct.

Anyway, I think I'll move on to hopefully discussing this with someone who is actually going to confront the questions I'm asking instead of playing games and dodging them, all while displaying a holier than thou "I'm quoting more scripture than you" spirit. I'll say its been interesting, though. Your behavior and mentality was strangely entertaining. It's why I kept going with you.

Have a good night.

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

---

Frodo just wants to speak and teach the TRUTH. It's not about "Winning a debate", it's about not allowing false teachings to go unchecked. The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

I am not upset that you quoted Christ, but I don't believe that you quoted Christ in context for today. You quoted Christ in context for the Jews of that day. You believe the Jesus Christ that taught BEFORE the Cross, but you don't want to believe what Jesus Christ taught through Paul AFTER the Cross. Jesus called Paul into Paul's Ministry. Jesus gave Paul his Doctrine. Paul didn't make it up. Paul had to defend his teachings from people who thought like you do.

I serve Jesus Christ, not Paul.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

---

Frodo just wants to speak and teach the TRUTH. It's not about "Winning a debate", it's about not allowing false teachings to go unchecked. The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

---

Stop for a moment and please answer this honestly, Frodo:

How many times have you brought the Gospel to someone just before they died?

Serious question, hope you will answer.

Thank you.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

---

Frodo just wants to speak and teach the TRUTH. It's not about "Winning a debate", it's about not allowing false teachings to go unchecked. The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

---

Stop for a moment and please answer this honestly, Frodo:

How many times have you brought the Gospel to someone just before they died?

Serious question, hope you will answer.

Thank you.

---

I have talked to many people not long before they died and gave them the Gospel. I have been in Nursing Homes where the people didn't have much longer to live, I had friends that prayed with me for Salvation, I had family members pray for Salvation with me over the phone and then die within a month or two.

I gave you my answer, now I ask that you tell me why you are asking.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

---

Your self awareness is so incredibly poor.

I'm sorry - YOU were the ass. You wanted to argue and fight instead of discuss my question. You continually avoided the question while displaying a condescending, combative tone.

YOU displayed a lack of the spirit of truth, by insisting that the topic of whether water baptism is required to get to heaven is IRRELEVANT to this thread entitled how to get to heaven. You even declared that it DIDN'T MATTER. How could a professed Christian ever consider a matter of going to heaven or hell unimportant??!! *This tells us all we need to know.

Even in another thread, you were cursing at others, saying you "didn't give a sh*t". Except you wrote out the word.

Everything you have accused Frodo and me of, YOU were doing. You need to be disappointed in your own behavior. Didn't you notice other people noted that in this thread too??

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

---

How many times does the Bible have to say baptism is necessary for salvation before you believe it? I gave 3 scriptures that connected the purpose of baptism to something necessary for salvation and I know there are more.

At least one verse says repentance is necessary, yet most verses that describe what is needed for salvation never mention repentance. Does this mean repentance is not necessary? The same is true of confession.

It is worthless to take a poll of how many times something is mentioned to know if it is necessary or not.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

---

Frodo just wants to speak and teach the TRUTH. It's not about "Winning a debate", it's about not allowing false teachings to go unchecked. The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

---

Stop for a moment and please answer this honestly, Frodo:

How many times have you brought the Gospel to someone just before they died?

Serious question, hope you will answer.

Thank you.

---

I have talked to many people not long before they died and gave them the Gospel. I have been in Nursing Homes where the people didn't have much longer to live, I had friends that prayed with me for Salvation, I had family members pray for Salvation with me over the phone and then die within a month or two.

I gave you my answer, now I ask that you tell me why you are asking.

---

Thank you for your response, Frodo. Not only for answering, but also for your service to those at the end of their time here on Earth. My wife works as a nurse, and she has told me many times how older patients are often left by themselves, with no family or friends. These people not only need the hope of Christ, but simple human contact.

Now with that in mind, it seems plain to me that you have met and talked with lots of different people. Do they all need exactly the same thing?

Does the homeless man need the same set of answers that the man whose child died needs? Does the man who cannot find a job need the same set of answers that a women with an abusive spouse needs? Yes, they all need to ask God through Christ for help, but they also need specific help.

That is why I asked my question. Because it speaks directly to the topic of this thread. Some people speak as if Heaven was a prize to be had like some object, when Jesus made plain it is a way of living. This is why in Matthew 5:3, Jesus assured the people that "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." God hears our hearts and responds with love to us according to our needs.

And while Jesus' atonement on the cross is fully efficacious in Salvation, Jesus yet reminded everyone that "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." So we know from Christ's words and examples that we are to be doers of the Word, not hearers only.

There been a lot of anger in this thread, and I am sorry for whatever part I had in that. But while some here are concerned about winning internet arguments, I am more concerned about what we are doing to make a difference.

Consider Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan, particularly how it starts:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Luke 10:25

Jesus makes clear that we are to act. This in no way means that our works earn our Salvation, but when God's love lives in us we will think and act as the Samaritan did, and as Jesus plainly directs us to do.

You and Dusty seem to get angry very quickly when I quote Christ on the requirement that we do more than believe. You have made much of the writings of Paul. Then please consider Romans 2:6

"God will repay each person according to what they have done."

You correctly observe that in Romans Paul observed that we are saved through faith in Christ. But note also that in Romans. Paul also writes of our need to obey God and act accordingly. Romans 6:2 notes

"We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

And goes further in explanation in 6:12-13:

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness."

Paul goes on to note that this is hard to practice:

" I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Romans 7:15-20

In some ways, we who have accepted Christ are to sin the way Alcoholics are to liquor. Just as the alcoholic has to understand that his fight to be free from drink will last the rest of his life, so we must be vigilant against our old nature returning to drag us down.

Consider the parable of the wise and foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). All of the virgins believed in the Bridegroom and looked for his arrival, but not all acted wisely.

This is what Paul meant in Philippians 2:12 when he advised "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Not that we earn anything by our deeds, but that we confirm who we follow by our acts.

I hope this makes sense.

Wow, so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride.

I was going to reply to each point, but you are consumed by something that would prevent you from receiving it through the Holy Spirt, let alone accepting my point, even when I quote Christ.

In this thread, I plead ' not guilty' to your charges. I hope you will reconsider my last couple posts prior to this one, as I believe they do illuminate the matter.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Frofo: "You are going against CHRIST by rejecting Paul's writings.'"

Wrong. Have to remind you again, Frodo, Paul is NOT Christ.

---

WRONG: I have to remind YOU again, CHRIST sent Paul

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

Oldbear83 said:

---

" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

---

Truth is not pride, it's truth. Fact is not pride. If you don't like the truth, that doesn't mean that the one sharing the truth is false.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

---

Truth is not pride, it's truth. Fact is not pride. If you don't like the truth, that doesn't mean that the one sharing the truth is false.

---

** sigh **

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

---

Truth is not pride, it's truth. Fact is not pride. If you don't like the truth, that doesn't mean that the one sharing the truth is false.

---

** sigh **

---

Also, I am not angry in the slightest. Not sure where you are getting that from.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

---

Truth is not pride, it's truth. Fact is not pride. If you don't like the truth, that doesn't mean that the one sharing the truth is false.

---

** sigh **

---

Also, I am not angry in the slightest. Not sure where you are getting that from.

---

Denial, you are in.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wow, so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride.

I was going to reply to each point, but you are consumed by something that would prevent you from receiving it through the Holy Spirt, let alone accepting my point, even when I quote Christ.

In this thread, I plead ' not guilty' to your charges. I hope you will reconsider my last couple posts prior to this one, as I believe they do illuminate the matter.

---

So what kind of spirit consumed you to say that a question about how to get to heaven when you die is IRRELEVANT to a thread about "how to get to heaven when you die", or that a matter of going either to heaven or hell "doesn't matter"?? NOT the spirt of truth.

It's all in print above, despite your denial. Do you need them pointed out to you?

Your posts above are only illuminating the points YOU want to make. I'm not arguing that works or baptism aren't important or commanded. It's sad that I have to continually remind you of the question I'M asking, and that's if they are REQUIRED for salvation. What you are doing, is you are so angry at the question because you think works and baptism are being devalued, and so you are PROJECTING onto me that I am saying they are of no value even though I am not, just so that you can go on your rants about your position, which I'm really not in disagreement with (that we are commanded to do good works and that baptism is important).

For some very odd reason, you won't state your position clearly on whether water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation. You probably were the one who "liked" the comments above that state that it IS, which seemingly indicates that you agree that if someone does NOT get baptized, they will go to hell. But when I confront your position with a simple question - "if someone hears the gospel, believes, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation, but dies before he can get baptized, is that person saved?" you are afraid to answer, and you hedge. You said that it was up to God. But if you truly believe that baptism is REQUIRED for salvation, then the clear answer should be that the person, despite believing, trusting, and putting his faith in Jesus for salvation, is NOT saved! Are you just afraid to say it? Why are you afraid to clearly stand by your position??

You really need to self-evaluate and see that everything I said is true, including the sharp rebuke, which you needed.