saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

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How many times does the Bible have to say baptism is necessary for salvation before you believe it? I gave 3 scriptures that connected the purpose of baptism to something necessary for salvation and I know there are more.

At least one verse says repentance is necessary, yet most verses that describe what is needed for salvation never mention repentance. Does this mean repentance is not necessary? The same is true of confession.

It is worthless to take a poll of how many times something is mentioned to know if it is necessary or not.

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So then, let me ask you the question I've been asking others:

If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

Dust off shoes again, then.

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" so much anger there. And more than a bit of pride."

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Truth is not pride, it's truth. Fact is not pride. If you don't like the truth, that doesn't mean that the one sharing the truth is false.

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** sigh **

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Also, I am not angry in the slightest. Not sure where you are getting that from.

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Denial, you are in.

---

The only denial here is by you denying what is clearly taught by the Apostle Paul. Jesus ministry was to the Jews under Law. You are following the wrong Doctrine, NOT that Jesus was wrong, but His message wasn't directed to YOU.

Jesus said:

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(KJV)

Jesus commanded the 12 to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Not Gentiles)

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ was a Minister of the Jews (circumcision):

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Paul was sent to the Gentiles with his message of Grace, Peter was sent to the Jews who practiced the Law:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


The POINT is that you need to follow the Revelation that was given to Paul and his message of Grace through Faith alone in Christ.

-I am NOT saying that we shouldn't be Baptized with water. I am saying that water Baptism doesn't save.
-I am NOT saying that we shouldn't take Communion (Sacraments), I am saying that Communion (Sacraments) have no part in Salvation. It's by GRACE (God's Work) through FAITH (Our choice to believe God and trust in Him and submit to His authority in our lives)

You can always tell who wants to learn, who wants to share thoughts ... and who just wants to be important.

(hint, Paul had something to say on that point)

Oldbear83 said:

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You can always tell who wants to learn, who wants to share thoughts ... and who just wants to be important.

(hint, Paul had something to say on that point)

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And who can quote the Word of God (Me) to prove their point and who can't (You)

It has nothing to do with trying to be important, it has to do with what's true and what's false, The Bible is the truth and you must conform your view to it, rather than your own logic and what you wish were true.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.

Frodo: "And who can quote the Word of God (Me) to prove their point and who can't (You)"

That tells me you have not read my posts

And I have quoted Christ more than you.

Oldbear83 said:

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Since we are discussing what matters, what is important, here is what Jesus taught:

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."


Mark 12:28-34

Note how Jesus tied love for God with love for your neighbor.

And this is what He said was 'important'.


Consider also how Jesus warned that what we have could be taken away:

""Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."

"When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them."

Matthew 21:43-45

There are two warnings here. First, not to become arrogant in our positions as teachers, lest we become like those Pharisees. And second, that the Kingdom of God belongs to those who produce good fruit.

So while we are not saved by works, but by the work of Christ, we nonetheless surely are instructed to do our Master's work, which is to follow His example and teaching.


Don't forget that in Matthew 24:10 Jesus warned that many would turn away from the faith, and in John 6:66 many of His own disciples left Jesus because He warned that they would not accept the Father.

Now regarding Baptism, I ask you plainly; if Baptism does not matter, why did even Jesus make sure to be baptised in front of a crowd?

Before you bring it up, yes the thief on the cross was redeemed without being baptised. And I am sure that there are others who came to Christ without being baptised in water. With that said, however, there is no verse in Scripture where Christ - or indeed any apostle - condemned baptism or said it was not necessary.

There have been many arguments on the question of baptism, and sadly some have resorted to angry words which seem to be from anyplace but the Holy Spirit. I remind everyone that there was strong disagreement at one time between Peter and Paul, two Titans of Christian faith. imagine if they had handled their dispute the way we see here?

Consider in Matthew 25, the Parable of the Ten Virgins. These were true virgins and they believed in the 'Bridegroom', yet some of them were denied entry to the wedding. Is this not a warning that belief without following through may lead to shame?

Or in the same chapter, the Parable of the Bags of Gold. See how some received more than the others. Is this not a reminder how we are not the same in our talents, our needs, or our position? What one man needs to find his way home, may be different from what someone else needs.

We are not saved by our works, but we are commissioned to show good fruit.

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Reposting this for Frodo, since he did not read it the first time ...

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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And I noticed there was not a single word of Scripture behind your post. Just anger.


Hmm.

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Like your last 10+ posts?

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Well, let's look at some of those:


7/13 8:45 AM
"If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

7/13 8:48 AM
"See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action."

7/13 8:52 AM
"Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands."

7/13 8:55 AM
" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother."
7/13 4:27 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

7/15 12:42 PM
"1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

"Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
7/15 12:56 PM
"Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

7/15 5:17 PM
"Yes, I did answer. That is God's verdict, not mine.

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15, for those scoring at home."

7/15 5:45 PM
"James 2:19

"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."

To say you have faith is worthless if you do not do anything with it. This is why Christ warned his disciples:

Matthew 13:3-8

"And He told them many things in parables, saying, "A farmer went out to sow his seed. And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.

"Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

"Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a cropa hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold."


7/17, 4:24 PM
"Jesus did not say 'speak the magic words and all your problems are over', He said 'take up your cross and follow Me'."

I think I have produced a great deal of Scripture.

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And this one, regarding the importance of perseverance once one is a Christian ...

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Very disappointing to see a brother in Christ become an ass in discussion.


I think the points I raised were well worth discussion, at least for those who want to mature in how we speak to others about Christ.

I was not surprised to see Frodo try so hard to "win" the debate - it's what he does. I was disappointed to see you fall into the same behavior, Dusty.

And no, I am not holier than anyone else here. But Scripture is valid and true, as you know, and so it is the best support for this kind of discussion.

I truly never expected people here to be so upset because I quoted Christ in context or observed that we must do more than toss off a sermon and think that is all the new believer needs.

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Frodo just wants to speak and teach the TRUTH. It's not about "Winning a debate", it's about not allowing false teachings to go unchecked. The vast majority of verses that talk about Salvation, don't even mention water Baptism. There is a reason for that, because water Baptism isn't required for Salvation.

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Stop for a moment and please answer this honestly, Frodo:

How many times have you brought the Gospel to someone just before they died?

Serious question, hope you will answer.

Thank you.

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I have talked to many people not long before they died and gave them the Gospel. I have been in Nursing Homes where the people didn't have much longer to live, I had friends that prayed with me for Salvation, I had family members pray for Salvation with me over the phone and then die within a month or two.

I gave you my answer, now I ask that you tell me why you are asking.

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Thank you for your response, Frodo. Not only for answering, but also for your service to those at the end of their time here on Earth. My wife works as a nurse, and she has told me many times how older patients are often left by themselves, with no family or friends. These people not only need the hope of Christ, but simple human contact.

Now with that in mind, it seems plain to me that you have met and talked with lots of different people. Do they all need exactly the same thing?

Does the homeless man need the same set of answers that the man whose child died needs? Does the man who cannot find a job need the same set of answers that a women with an abusive spouse needs? Yes, they all need to ask God through Christ for help, but they also need specific help.

That is why I asked my question. Because it speaks directly to the topic of this thread. Some people speak as if Heaven was a prize to be had like some object, when Jesus made plain it is a way of living. This is why in Matthew 5:3, Jesus assured the people that "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." God hears our hearts and responds with love to us according to our needs.

And while Jesus' atonement on the cross is fully efficacious in Salvation, Jesus yet reminded everyone that "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." So we know from Christ's words and examples that we are to be doers of the Word, not hearers only.

There been a lot of anger in this thread, and I am sorry for whatever part I had in that. But while some here are concerned about winning internet arguments, I am more concerned about what we are doing to make a difference.

Consider Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan, particularly how it starts:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Luke 10:25

Jesus makes clear that we are to act. This in no way means that our works earn our Salvation, but when God's love lives in us we will think and act as the Samaritan did, and as Jesus plainly directs us to do.

You and Dusty seem to get angry very quickly when I quote Christ on the requirement that we do more than believe. You have made much of the writings of Paul. Then please consider Romans 2:6

"God will repay each person according to what they have done."

You correctly observe that in Romans Paul observed that we are saved through faith in Christ. But note also that in Romans. Paul also writes of our need to obey God and act accordingly. Romans 6:2 notes

"We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

And goes further in explanation in 6:12-13:

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness."

Paul goes on to note that this is hard to practice:

" I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Romans 7:15-20

In some ways, we who have accepted Christ are to sin the way Alcoholics are to liquor. Just as the alcoholic has to understand that his fight to be free from drink will last the rest of his life, so we must be vigilant against our old nature returning to drag us down.

Consider the parable of the wise and foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). All of the virgins believed in the Bridegroom and looked for his arrival, but not all acted wisely.

This is what Paul meant in Philippians 2:12 when he advised "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Not that we earn anything by our deeds, but that we confirm who we follow by our acts.

I hope this makes sense.

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and this one. I thanked Frodo for his service and devotion. Seems he is unable to return the courtesy.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

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When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

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A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

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A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

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Yeah, that's the same wimped out answer that OldBear gave. If you believe in what you say, that baptism is REQUIRED, then it should be clear to you that this person is unsaved and is in hell, right?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

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A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

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Yeah, that's the same wimped out answer that OldBear gave. If you believe in what you say, that baptism is REQUIRED, then it should be clear to you that this person is unsaved and is in hell, right?

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AH. BusyTD thinks trusting God's mercy is "wimped out".

Hmm.

saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

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When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

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But where do you get from that story that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation??

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

---

A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

---

Yeah, that's the same wimped out answer that OldBear gave. If you believe in what you say, that baptism is REQUIRED, then it should be clear to you that this person is unsaved and is in hell, right?

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AH. BusyTD thinks trusting God's mercy is "wimped out".

Hmm.

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If God says NO, he is NOT saved, then it isn't "mercy" right?

So if you believe that God says NO to him, then you aren't trusting in anyone's "mercy", correct?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

---

When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

---

But where do you get from that story that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation??

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Is that what he said? Or are you missing the point?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

---

A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

---

Yeah, that's the same wimped out answer that OldBear gave. If you believe in what you say, that baptism is REQUIRED, then it should be clear to you that this person is unsaved and is in hell, right?

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AH. BusyTD thinks trusting God's mercy is "wimped out".

Hmm.

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If God says NO, he is NOT saved, then it isn't "mercy" right?

So if you believe that God says NO to him, then you aren't trusting in anyone's "mercy", correct?

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I'm curious, BusyTD. Are you saying every single person will be saved?

And if not, does that make God unmerciful in some way?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

---

When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

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But where do you get from that story that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation??

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Is that what he said? Or are you missing the point?

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Are YOU? He is responding to Frodo's point that the Gospel saves, not water baptism, by saying that the Gospel INCLUDES water baptism, thus stating his position that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a person hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and asks Jesus to be saved, and puts his faith and trust in Jesus for salvation - but dies before he can get baptized - is that person saved, or did he go to hell?

---

A question for God to answer. Does not affect the vast majority of us.

---

Yeah, that's the same wimped out answer that OldBear gave. If you believe in what you say, that baptism is REQUIRED, then it should be clear to you that this person is unsaved and is in hell, right?

---

AH. BusyTD thinks trusting God's mercy is "wimped out".

Hmm.

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If God says NO, he is NOT saved, then it isn't "mercy" right?

So if you believe that God says NO to him, then you aren't trusting in anyone's "mercy", correct?

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I'm curious, BusyTD. Are you saying every single person will be saved?

And if not, does that make God unmerciful in some way?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

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Once again, you divert from having to answer the question, by asking your own, unrelated question. You are just not good at this.

Thanking you in advance for continuing to avoid the question.

BTD: "Once again, you divert from having to answer the question"

Here is the thread title, again:

How to Get to Heaven When You Die

The obvious question, then, is 'what is needed to go to Heaven?'

And that, BusyTD, is the question I have answered over and over, using Christ's specific words, teaching and example.

Meanwhile, you and Frodo are throwing tantrums because you are having trouble forcing people to parrot your insistence that all anyone needs is to ask Christ to forgive you. Everyone has agreed that the thief on the cross went to Paradise for trusting Christ, but what you never address is the fact that very few people make their decision regarding Christ right before they die. And there is plenty of evidence that God has given specific requirements to specific individuals. For example, God required Noah to guild the ark, Abraham to leave his homeland and move to a brand new country, Moses to confront Pharoah, David to face his shame and endure plague and a civil war, Job to suffer long disease, poverty and shame in public before being exonerated, Jonah to speak to Ninevah, and many others.

As for Christ, He made sure to be baptized in public, showing it was important, and also warned that we could lose what we have. Christ warned of salt losing its saltiness, becoming worthless, and told parables like wise and foolish virgins, confirming that belief was not enough; we are to look for Him and serve him. There are many verses where Jesus reminds us we are to not just hear His word, but put it into action.

In no way does this mean that we are saved by our deeds, but neither will a Christian refuse to work for God's glory and Christ's pleasure. This is why I and others have posted reminders about following through on committing to Christ.

Wangchung said it well back on May 19 (841 am):

"You can't buy your way into heaven with good deeds, you do good because that is how we show faith in the teachings of Christ, by living those teachings. That's why faith without works is dead."

Lib.MR Bears (5/19, 1157 am) also observed:

"the cursed fig tree had no fruit (works)"

Fre3dombear (5/23, 1201 am) disagreed with Frodo's position, but was polite.

Doc Holliday (5/23, 125 am) also confirmed that words alone are

"no form of belief.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

The statement of faith, rather than the embodiment of the belief in action, is where Christianity has gone wrong.

We are to imitate Jesus."

I could go on, but it's obvious we have strayed from the agreement we had in May. Frodo likes to remind people to read the OP, but the first page of this thread should get another look.

Oldbear83 said:

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BTD: "Once again, you divert from having to answer the question"

Here is the thread title, again:

How to Get to Heaven When You Die

The obvious question, then, is 'what is needed to go to Heaven?'

And that, BusyTD, is the question I have answered over and over, using Christ's specific words, teaching and example.

Meanwhile, you and Frodo are throwing tantrums because you are having trouble forcing people to parrot your insistence that all anyone needs is to ask Christ to forgive you. Everyone has agreed that the thief on the cross went to Paradise for trusting Christ, but what you never address is the fact that very few people make their decision regarding Christ right before they die. And there is plenty of evidence that God has given specific requirements to specific individuals. For example, God required Noah to guild the ark, Abraham to leave his homeland and move to a brand new country, Moses to confront Pharoah, David to face his shame and endure plague and a civil war, Job to suffer long disease, poverty and shame in public before being exonerated, Jonah to speak to Ninevah, and many others.

As for Christ, He made sure to be baptized in public, showing it was important, and also warned that we could lose what we have. Christ warned of salt losing its saltiness, becoming worthless, and told parables like wise and foolish virgins, confirming that belief was not enough; we are to look for Him and serve him. There are many verses where Jesus reminds us we are to not just hear His word, but put it into action.

In no way does this mean that we are saved by our deeds, but neither will a Christian refuse to work for God's glory and Christ's pleasure. This is why I and others have posted reminders about following through on committing to Christ.

Wangchung said it well back on May 19 (841 am):

"You can't buy your way into heaven with good deeds, you do good because that is how we show faith in the teachings of Christ, by living those teachings. That's why faith without works is dead."

Lib.MR Bears (5/19, 1157 am) also observed:

"the cursed fig tree had no fruit (works)"

Fre3dombear (5/23, 1201 am) disagreed with Frodo's position, but was polite.

Doc Holliday (5/23, 125 am) also confirmed that words alone are

"no form of belief.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

The statement of faith, rather than the embodiment of the belief in action, is where Christianity has gone wrong.

We are to imitate Jesus."

I could go on, but it's obvious we have strayed from the agreement we had in May. Frodo likes to remind people to read the OP, but the first page of this thread should get another look.

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What in God's name is all this??

Did you get lost with regard to the flow of the conversation?

The question you aren't answering, the question that I am referring to, is the LATEST one. Look back 7 posts, where I asked you if it's "mercy" if God says NO to that person being saved. As usual, you tried avoiding the question.

Sheesh.

Yet another tantrum.

Sheesh.

Oldbear83 said:

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Yet another tantrum.

Sheesh.

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And yet another dodge of the question.

Your 1000 word diatribe would be more indicative of a "tantrum".

You have absolutely no self-awareness. Do you at least see the irony of you lecturing me about the title of the thread, when it was YOU who said that a question about water baptism being required to get to heaven was IRRELEVANT to the thread titled "how to get to heaven"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Yet another tantrum.

Sheesh.

---

And yet another dodge of the question.

Your 1000 word diatribe would be more indicative of a "tantrum".

You have absolutely no self-awareness. Do you at least see the irony of you lecturing me about the title of the thread, when it was YOU who said that a question about water baptism being required to get to heaven was IRRELEVANT to the thread titled "how to get to heaven"?

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Maybe you could read what I posted, rather than just keep throwing a fit?

On Water and Baptism

I am sad to see Frodo and BusyTarpDuster get so angry to Scripture and explanations about what is necessary to follow Christ. BTD in particular seems to get mad because he does not consider my previous answers regarding baptism to be sufficient, so I will try again.

Frodo and BTD, as well as others, seem to believe that because the thief on the cross who asked Christ to remember him was promised 'Paradise' by Christ, that means that baptism is not necessary. I think it is dangerous to make broad assumptions on one case, though, especially when Christ Himself has done things and said things that send a different message.

Consider that in all four Gospel accounts, Jesus not only made a point of being publicly baptized by John, but was baptizing people Himself. And for those who believe baptism ended when Christ was risen, consider that Peter and other disciples baptized believers, as recorded in the book of Acts. Paul's own epistles (Romans and Corinthians and Galatians) confirms that believers were all baptized as a part of their incorporation into the body of Christ.

Water is also mentioned often in the Bible. The first Chapter of Genesis observes that the Spirit of God created the lands by separating waters, as if pulling land from the waters the same way a believer is raised from waters in their baptism. In the second chapter of Genesis, a river flowing from Eden is mentioned as part of spreading life and growth. Water is used to punish as well as give life in Genesis, it's how we are introduced to Moses. God uses Moses to provide water for the people during their time in the wilderness, and it also leads to Moses' greatest sin Water is part of the sacrifice and cleansing rituals specified in the Torah, The Book of Numbers several times speaks of sprinkling the 'Water of Cleansing' to purify people, clothing, and animals. Water was given as a sign to Gideon to confirm God was making the promise he heard, and is referenced in Psalms and Proverbs as a blessing from God and a danger from which God saves us.

Water is therefore essential to the matter, and should not be mocked just because you do not see it as necessary.

Oldbear83 said:

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On Water and Baptism

I am sad to see Frodo and BusyTarpDuster get so angry to Scripture and explanations about what is necessary to follow Christ. BTD in particular seems to get mad because he does not consider my previous answers regarding baptism to be sufficient, so I will try again.

Frodo and BTD, as well as others, seem to believe that because the thief on the cross who asked Christ to remember him was promised 'Paradise' by Christ, that means that baptism is not necessary. I think it is dangerous to make broad assumptions on one case, though, especially when Christ Himself has done things and said things that send a different message.

Consider that in all four Gospel accounts, Jesus not only made a point of being publicly baptized by John, but was baptizing people Himself. And for those who believe baptism ended when Christ was risen, consider that Peter and other disciples baptized believers, as recorded in the book of Acts. Paul's own epistles (Romans and Corinthians and Galatians) confirms that believers were all baptized as a part of their incorporation into the body of Christ.

Water is also mentioned often in the Bible. The first Chapter of Genesis observes that the Spirit of God created the lands by separating waters, as if pulling land from the waters the same way a believer is raised from waters in their baptism. In the second chapter of Genesis, a river flowing from Eden is mentioned as part of spreading life and growth. Water is used to punish as well as give life in Genesis, it's how we are introduced to Moses. God uses Moses to provide water for the people during their time in the wilderness, and it also leads to Moses' greatest sin Water is part of the sacrifice and cleansing rituals specified in the Torah, The Book of Numbers several times speaks of sprinkling the 'Water of Cleansing' to purify people, clothing, and animals. Water was given as a sign to Gideon to confirm God was making the promise he heard, and is referenced in Psalms and Proverbs as a blessing from God and a danger from which God saves us.

Water is therefore essential to the matter, and should not be mocked just because you do not see it as necessary.

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Not sure what you are talking about. I am certainly not the angry one here, but you seem to be and you like to constantly, falsely accuse me of being angry. Water Baptism isn't required for Salvation. It's something that's done as an act of obedience to Christ once we profess Faith in Him alone for Salvation. It's the same with Communion. They are both ordinances of God.

The Thief on the cross is only one example of a person being saved without water Baptism. Look at this passage. Not a drop of water.

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You keep bringing up the ministry of Jesus and John to make your point. They were Ministering to Jews under Law, NOT Gentiles under Grace. There is a big difference, but you don't want to believe Paul's Writings. That is your error. Jesus sent Paul so by rejecting Paul, you are rejecting Jesus message to YOU.

Water being mentioned doesn't mean that it has saving power. Water is just a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

The Word Baptism comes from the word 907. baptizw baptizo, bap-tid'-zo
Search for 907 in KJV

from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.


See Greek 911 (bapto)

So, then by this verse, what or who puts (Baptizes) a believer into Christ?

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

I never mocked WATER Baptism. I believe that a believer should be Baptized with water as an act of Obedience to show what Christ has done through His Holy Spirit. It's not abolished by Paul, but Paul explains very well that we aren't saved by anything other than Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ

Stop being angry with me and then falsely accusing me of being angry. I am confident in the Scriptures that I am not saved by water Baptism.

You are angry, Frodo.

And please pay attention to what I wrote.

Look at what Christ said and did if you care about the truth.

Oldbear83 said:

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You are angry, Frodo.

And please pay attention to what I wrote.

Look at what Christ said and did if you care about the truth.

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I am not angry, but you must be. You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with. Do you vote Democrat too? Look at what the Bible actually says instead of what you want to be true. You like to pick and choose which parts you want to pay attention to and which ones you want to ignore. You have to read ALL of it. Pay attention to what I am saying. What is your response to the vast majority of Scriptures that explain Salvation and the Gospel and never mention water Baptism? AFTER the person was saved, they were Baptized.

That's why the Gentiles who believed received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water Baptism:

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(KJV)

You cannot have the Holy Spirit unless you are ALREADY Saved:

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(KJV)

Baptism comes AFTER Salvation and does not cause Salvation. If you don't like that, take it up with God.

Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"

You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.

I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.

For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?

Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?

If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.

But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.

The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.

Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

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When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

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But where do you get from that story that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation??

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Why else would he immediately want to be baptized? Only from hearing the gospel.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The only denial here is by you denying what is clearly taught by the Apostle Paul. Jesus ministry was to the Jews under Law. You are following the wrong Doctrine, NOT that Jesus was wrong, but His message wasn't directed to YOU.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles with his message of Grace, Peter was sent to the Jews who practiced the Law:

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Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is no split gospel.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Yet another tantrum.

Sheesh.

---

And yet another dodge of the question.

Your 1000 word diatribe would be more indicative of a "tantrum".

You have absolutely no self-awareness. Do you at least see the irony of you lecturing me about the title of the thread, when it was YOU who said that a question about water baptism being required to get to heaven was IRRELEVANT to the thread titled "how to get to heaven"?

---

Maybe you could read what I posted, rather than just keep throwing a fit?

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Maybe you could be honest for a change and answer the question or stay on point, instead of accusing others of throwing "fits" when what they're doing is telling you the truth.

saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Christ sent Paul to Preach the Gospel, NOT to Baptize. It is the Gospel that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

---

When Philip told the Good News to the Ethiopian he immediately wanted to be baptized. The Gospel includes baptism.

---

But where do you get from that story that water baptism is REQUIRED for salvation??

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Why else would he immediately want to be baptized? Only from hearing the gospel.

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"Why else" is not a sufficient reason to prove that this story means water baptism is required for salvation. That's what you are inferring by reading into the story.

But let's suppose you are correct - are you saying, then, that he heard the gospel, believed in Jesus, and trusted Jesus for his salvation.....but was NOT YET saved until he had gone down into the water?

Oldbear83 said:

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Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"

You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.

I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.

For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?

Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?

If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.

But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.

The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.

Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.

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True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.

Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!

If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?