If that's true, then the Catholic belief is incoherent. A sacrifice is for those with sin, not without.Sam Lowry said:It is because of Jesus' sacrifice, according to Catholic belief.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But not sinless because of Jesus' sacrifice, according to Catholic belief.Sam Lowry said:
Mary was sinless because of Christ.
The fallacy would only apply if you were talking to someone outside the tradition, like an unbeliever or an apostate. Applying it this context is like accusing a constitutional lawyer of appealing to the Constitution. The whole debate we're having is about interpreting a tradition.
The fallacy is that 2000 years of Catholic belief and practice means it is more correct than a belief and practice that isn't as old.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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Last: 8 hrs ago by Oldbear83
Forgive me. I'm not sure which to which context your are referring to in my exclusion.Oldbear83 said:
I note you exclude the Baptists, Methodists and many other perfectly valid Christian denominations.
I'll address this statement in another post.Oldbear83 said:
So I must reject the 'fullness of truth' claim as completely false and frankly hubris in its essence.
Thanks Coke Bear, did not mean to be rude. I was brought up to think of 'the Catholic Church' meaning the entire body of Christ. Who that includes depends on who you ask, although personally I keep the fact that Jesus emphasized the Good Samaritan in His parable about a man who truly loved his neighbor, and not the nominal Jew, as He could have done.Coke Bear said:Forgive me. I'm not sure which to which context your are referring to in my exclusion.Oldbear83 said:
I note you exclude the Baptists, Methodists and many other perfectly valid Christian denominations.I'll address this statement in another post.Oldbear83 said:
So I must reject the 'fullness of truth' claim as completely false and frankly hubris in its essence.
.
Where is that stated in the bible? If it is stated, does it definitively state that ALL sacrifice is for those with sin. And if so, what type of sin? Personal or original.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
A sacrifice is for those with sin, not without.
Able brought his sacrifice to God. I don't believe that he had any sin, other than original sin.
I realize that the "fullness of truth" is a very bold claim. Before I delve into it, I would like to state that ALL religions have some truth. Both our Muslim and Jewish brothers believe in an Abrahamic, monotheistic God.Oldbear83 said:
So I must reject the 'fullness of truth' claim as completely false and frankly hubris in its essence.
Catholic and Protestants (not including LDS, JW, or SDA) share SO many common beliefs:
Monotheistic God that created the universe
That God is a Triune God, comprised of Father, Son, and HS
Fall of Man
Virginal Birth of Jesus
Sinlessness of Jesus
Hypostatic union of Jesus
Torture, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus
Descent of the HS at Pentecost
27 books of the NT
We share a great many truths. Having said that, disagreements, obviously, exist. Original sin, Nature of Baptism, justification, atonement, sacraments, Eucharist, end times, etc.
We are not relativists. Only one truth can exist. Either 7 sacraments exist or not. Baptismal regeneration or not. Died for all or limited atonement. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity or not. Truth here is an either / or proposition.
Because Jesus established a Church, made Peter it's leader, thru Apostolic Succession, has an unbroken line for nearly 2000 years of Doctrine and Dogmas that developed over time, the Church will claim that She is the FULLNESS of truth. This isn't saying that our Protestant brethren don't have some truth. On the contrary, Protestants have a GREAT deal of truth in their beliefs, just not the FULLNESS.
1 Tim 3:15 states:
"… the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Here's another excerpt from The Glories of Mary, by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri. This book is sanctioned and promoted by the Catholic Church. It has gone through 800 editions. It has been quoted by Popes and bishops for many, many years. Alphonsus de Ligouri was even made a Doctor of the Church, a title given to only 37 Catholic saints to date, a prestigious and exclusive title bestowed by the Pope for those saints who made "outstanding contribution....to the understanding and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures and the development of Christian doctrine." (D'Ambrosio, link here)
...from Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help #7
O Mother of Perpetual Help,
thou art the dispenser of every grace
that God grants us in our misery;
it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful,
so rich, so kind,
that thou mightest assist us in our miseries.
Thou art the advocate of the most wretched
and abandoned sinners,
if they but come unto thee;
come once more to my assistance,
for I commend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation;
to thee I entrust my soul.....
In this Catholic Prayer, Mary is called the "advocate" of sinners. But the bible explicitly says that our advocate is Jesus: 1 John 2:1 - "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
This prayer also says to entrust the salvation of one's soul to Mary, not Jesus. I don't think this needs any explanation as to why this is absolutely heretical.
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
...from Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help #7
O Mother of Perpetual Help,
thou art the dispenser of every grace
that God grants us in our misery;
it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful,
so rich, so kind,
that thou mightest assist us in our miseries.
Thou art the advocate of the most wretched
and abandoned sinners,
if they but come unto thee;
come once more to my assistance,
for I commend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation;
to thee I entrust my soul.....
In this Catholic Prayer, Mary is called the "advocate" of sinners. But the bible explicitly says that our advocate is Jesus: 1 John 2:1 - "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
This prayer also says to entrust the salvation of one's soul to Mary, not Jesus. I don't think this needs any explanation as to why this is absolutely heretical.
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Yes, there were "peace offerings" given to God in the Old Testament. But we are talking about Jesus' sacrifice. Was that a peace offering?Coke Bear said:Where is that stated in the bible? If it is stated, does it definitively state that ALL sacrifice is for those with sin. And if so, what type of sin? Personal or original.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
A sacrifice is for those with sin, not without.
Able brought his sacrifice to God. I don't believe that he had any sin, other than original sin.
Maybe, I'm still confused, but I didn't mean to exclude other denominations, I was just listing those that are Catholic meaning we (those rites listed) still hold that the Pope is head of the Church and celebrate all 7 sacraments.Oldbear83 said:Thanks Coke Bear, did not mean to be rude. I was brought up to think of 'the Catholic Church' meaning the entire body of Christ. Who that includes depends on who you ask, although personally I keep the fact that Jesus emphasized the Good Samaritan in His parable about a man who truly loved his neighbor, and not the nominal Jew, as He could have done.Coke Bear said:Forgive me. I'm not sure which to which context your are referring to in my exclusion.Oldbear83 said:
I note you exclude the Baptists, Methodists and many other perfectly valid Christian denominations.I'll address this statement in another post.Oldbear83 said:
So I must reject the 'fullness of truth' claim as completely false and frankly hubris in its essence.
.
With regard to "the Catholic Church," we state in the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
Catholic is NOT capitalized because in this sense it actually means 'universal.'
I guess my opinion is that I'm grateful for anyone to spread the message of Jesus, especially those who put their lives at risk.Oldbear83 said:
May I ask your opinion, Coke Bear, on the Baptist Christians in China, the Methodist missionaries in Syria, and the Lutheran believers in Ukraine, who are helping the victims of that terrible war?
See my previous post for the definition of the fullness of truth.Oldbear83 said:
Do they have the 'fullness of truth' in their hearts? Does the Holy Spirit dwell in them and work through them?
Holy Spirit The Catholic Church doesn't claim a monopoly on the HS. God sent the Holy Spirit to the entire world. I'm quite that the Holy Spirit "dwells in them and their work."
Thanks Coke Bear. What's funny to me is that I was taught that Capitalized 'Catholic' referred to the universal Church under Christ (not to be confused with Church of Christ denomination), so I misunderstood your explanation.Coke Bear said:I guess my opinion is that I'm grateful for anyone to spread the message of Jesus, especially those who put their lives at risk.Oldbear83 said:
May I ask your opinion, Coke Bear, on the Baptist Christians in China, the Methodist missionaries in Syria, and the Lutheran believers in Ukraine, who are helping the victims of that terrible war?See my previous post for the definition of the fullness of truth.Oldbear83 said:
Do they have the 'fullness of truth' in their hearts? Does the Holy Spirit dwell in them and work through them?
Holy Spirit The Catholic Church doesn't claim a monopoly on the HS. God sent the Holy Spirit to the entire world. I'm quite that the Holy Spirit "dwells in them and their work."
A bit of an interesting story about mission work. My father was bitter about Asians after WW2, because his whole fraternity was killed in WW2 in the Pacific. Over time, however, he became aware of mission work in China and Viet Nam by Baptist missionaries, often at great danger.
My dad wasn't going to pass as native in any Asian country, but his heart was moved to help Chinese and Asians in the US who had escaped from persecution worse than anything we could experience here. The courage of those missionaries, therefore, not only brought people in Asia to Christ, but also brought compassion to the hearts of Americans who learned of their courage and faith in great tests.
IF Jesus dies for all, why does it matter to you if Mary died or not? It seems like you are being legalist again.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
]Yes, there were "peace offerings" given to God in the Old Testament. But we are talking about Jesus' sacrifice. Was that a peace offering?
Just like God, by a singular and privilege, can preserve her from original sin, He can also allow her to die AND be assumed into heaven. Christ's sacrifice is still salvific.
Jesus never sinned, but He died. That also throws your original-sin theory, so there's two without original sin. I quote Tom Nash from Catholic Answers to better explain Mary's death:
Mary's death need not be understood as proof that she sinned. Rather, so closely united with her divine Son's mission, she also experienced death. And yet, like her sinless Son who died for our transgressions, Mary didn't undergo bodily corruption, because she too was sinlessin her case by God's grace and her cooperation ….
I'm sorry, but trying to invalidate what I'm saying by calling it "legalistic" is not going to solve your problem. Apparently, you're not thinking this through correctly - if the wages of sin is death, and Mary dies, then she had original sin like everyone else. I already explained to you that Jesus died because he took on our sin. And Jesus died because he was the sacrifice! He HAD to die for it to be a sacrifice. So how does that "throw (my) original sin theory"? Was Mary a sacrifice?Coke Bear said:IF Jesus dies for all, why does it matter to you if Mary died or not? It seems like you are being legalist again.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
]Yes, there were "peace offerings" given to God in the Old Testament. But we are talking about Jesus' sacrifice. Was that a peace offering?
Just like God, by a singular and privilege, can preserve her from original sin, He can also allow her to die AND be assumed into heaven. Christ's sacrifice is still salvific.
Jesus never sinned, but He died. That also throws your original-sin theory, so there's two without original sin. I quote Tom Nash from Catholic Answers to better explain Mary's death:
Mary's death need not be understood as proof that she sinned. Rather, so closely united with her divine Son's mission, she also experienced death. And yet, like her sinless Son who died for our transgressions, Mary didn't undergo bodily corruption, because she too was sinlessin her case by God's grace and her cooperation ….
You said - "Just like God, by a singular and privilege, can preserve her from original sin, He can also allow her to die AND be assumed into heaven. Christ's sacrifice is still salvific." If Mary was preserved from sin, even original sin, then she did not carry any curse of sin, which includes death. If Mary died without having sin, then Mary paid the debt of a sinner when she did not owe that debt due to her being sinless. That would be unjust, so no, God can NOT allow that by nature of His character. Your position has a big theological problem.
"Christ's sacrifice is still salvivic" - for Mary? How, exactly, if Mary was sinless, and Christ's sacrifice was for sin? That is the incoherent part that you still haven't sufficiently reconciled.
And what is the evidence that her body didn't undergo corruption? We have first hand, eye witness testimonials that proclaim this about Jesus, even if it meant those who proclaimed it met persecution and death. Do we even have anything close to that for Mary? What is your historical/scriptural evidence for this? Let's examine that.
Hold on. I thought that John 14:26 states:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
In this Catholic Prayer, Mary is called the "advocate" of sinners. But the bible explicitly says that our advocate is Jesus: 1 John 2:1 - "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Here the advocate that Jesus sends is the Holy Spirit. Is possible that more than one advocate exists? Absolutely! Mary can speak on our behalf.
One again, this is a prayer. It's not official teaching of the Magisterium. Putting that aside, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this prayer. To entrust is like giving everything to her to help us take care of it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This prayer also says to entrust the salvation of one's soul to Mary, not Jesus. I don't think this needs any explanation as to why this is absolutely heretical.
Our Mother wants us to be in heaven. She will petition her Son.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
You believe in the Trinity, don't you? That Jesus is one with God, AND the Holy Spirit? So John 14:26 is not saying that these are two different advocates.Quote:Hold on. I thought that John 14:26 states:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
In this Catholic Prayer, Mary is called the "advocate" of sinners. But the bible explicitly says that our advocate is Jesus: 1 John 2:1 - "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Here the advocate that Jesus sends is the Holy Spirit. Is possible that more than one advocate exists? Absolutely! Mary can speak on our behalf.
Even if you didn't believe this - HOW does this verse, then, allow for Mary as an advocate? Your reasoning seems to be that since the bible mentions TWO advocates, then there can be three, which justifies inserting Mary into that role. This reasoning is terribly, terribly flawed. Where in scripture does it say anything that would even remotely justify inserting Mary in that role? Can we just insert anyone we choose into this role, since we don't need scriptural evidence? Can my dog be an advocate?
If you think there is absolutely nothing wrong with this prayer, and you can't see the idolatry in it, then there's just no way around it - you are deceived, and you are not being led by the Holy Spirit.Quote:One again, this is a prayer. It's not official teaching of the Magisterium. Putting that aside, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this prayer. To entrust is like giving everything to her to help us take care of it.Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This prayer also says to entrust the salvation of one's soul to Mary, not Jesus. I don't think this needs any explanation as to why this is absolutely heretical.
Our Mother wants us to be in heaven. She will petition her Son.
It doesn't have to originate from the Magisterium. This prayer is fully condoned by the Catholic Church, therefore these prayers are being prayed by Catholics everywhere, with the full belief that they have the full backing and support of the Church. If the Magisterium truly had authority from God, it would condemn this as idolatry, which it clearly is. But it doesn't. Hence, the Magisterium is not to be trusted as coming from God. Please read what I wrote about this book of prayers again, since you keep trying to downplay the significance of this book in Catholicism.
"This book is sanctioned and promoted by the Catholic Church. It has gone through 800 editions. It has been quoted by Popes and bishops for many, many years. Alphonsus de Ligouri was even made a Doctor of the Church, a title given to only 37 Catholic saints to date, a prestigious and exclusive title bestowed by the Pope for those saints who made "outstanding contribution....to the understanding and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures and the development of Christian doctrine." (D'Ambrosio, link here)
Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
This is an incredibly dangerous and foolish way to think. I think I can guarantee you that someone can pray to God, then to ANY idol of his choosing, and in nine days nothing will happen as well. To believe that means, then, that it was NOT a sin to pray to that idol, is utterly, utterly foolish. Do not put the Lord thy God to the test. God may not answer you, because you are praying to an idol! So you're going to interpret God's silence as evidence of His approval!? I can't even begin to tell you how foolish this is.Quote:
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
Even your best case scenario is dangerous. We know from scripture that Satan can inflict "thorns" in people. So if you're praying to an idol to remove a "thorn", and God is silent because of your prayer to an idol, Satan can then stop the "thorn" just to get you to believe the idol did it. That way, Satan can ensure you continuing to pray to that idol, thus dishonoring God. Again, please don't think this way. It is utterly dangerous and foolish. Do not put the Lord thy God to the test.
Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.
Where in scripture do you get this? In fact, the only time in scripture we see someone trying to praise his mother, Jesus rebuts her:Coke Bear said:Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
In this Catholic Prayer, Mary is called the "advocate" of sinners. But the bible explicitly says that our advocate is Jesus: 1 John 2:1 - "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" - Luke 11:27-28
Here, we have a person respecting and honoring Mary, but Jesus doesn't validate it. Instead, he deflects away from it.
Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If you think there is absolutely nothing wrong with this prayer, and you can't see the idolatry in it, then there's just no way around it - you are deceived, and you are not being led by the Holy Spirit.Quote:One again, this is a prayer. It's not official teaching of the Magisterium. Putting that aside, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this prayer. To entrust is like giving everything to her to help us take care of it.Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This prayer also says to entrust the salvation of one's soul to Mary, not Jesus. I don't think this needs any explanation as to why this is absolutely heretical.
Our Mother wants us to be in heaven. She will petition her Son.
It doesn't have to originate from the Magisterium. This prayer is fully condoned by the Catholic Church, therefore these prayers are being prayed by Catholics everywhere, with the full belief that they have the full backing and support of the Church. If the Magisterium truly had authority from God, it would condemn this as idolatry, which it clearly is. But it doesn't. Hence, the Magisterium is not to be trusted as coming from God. Please read what I wrote about this book of prayers again, since you keep trying to downplay the significance of this book in Catholicism.
"This book is sanctioned and promoted by the Catholic Church. It has gone through 800 editions. It has been quoted by Popes and bishops for many, many years. Alphonsus de Ligouri was even made a Doctor of the Church, a title given to only 37 Catholic saints to date, a prestigious and exclusive title bestowed by the Pope for those saints who made "outstanding contribution....to the understanding and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures and the development of Christian doctrine." (D'Ambrosio, link here)
Just because you are confused about the true nature of veneration and deny the efficacy of intercessory prayer doesn't mean Marian devotion is idolatry. Too many Protestants are blind to that which most Christians have believed from the earliest days of the church and rejected much that is good, beautiful, and true.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
You make the typical mistake of conflating asking someone to pray for you with "praying to" that person. This is simply wrong. Your invalid assumptions lead to invalid conclusions.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your wife to pray for you.
You have to pray "to" someone who isn't alive on earth anymore, in order to ask them to pray for you. Your mistake is conflating "asking" with "praying". They are not the same.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
You make the typical mistake of conflating asking someone to pray for you with "praying to" that person. This is simply wrong. Your invalid assumptions lead to invalid conclusions.
And NOWHERE in scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God alone. There is no indication whatsoever that people in heaven can even hear our prayers. And that's assuming who you're praying to is indeed in heaven and not hell. Stop praying to Mary, and pray directly to Jesus. Praying to Mary is an offense to Jesus' character because you are saying He isn't powerful enough, loving enough, or desiring enough to want to hear from you and deal with you directly.
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I (Jesus) stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."
JESUS is knocking. JESUS wants you to open the door to HIM. JESUS will come in, JESUS wants to eat with you, and wants you to eat with HIM.
JESUS wants this personal relationship with you. YOU directly. NOT through Mary, NOT through the saints, NOT through anyone else.
One is normal human verbal communication. The other is spiritual communication.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your wife to pray for you.
One we are instructed in the bible to do. The other is not and in fact is forbidden.
One I know she can hear me when I ask. The other, I have to have faith in her omniscience to hear me.
One gives attributes to a person no longer living on this earth (ability to hear our prayers spiritually) that only God possesses, and therefore is an offense to God and is idolatry. The other does not, and is not.
.......so they are most certainly different.
No, you don't have to "pray to someone who isn't alive on earth anymore in order to ask them to pray for you". I am not praying to my late father or Mary when I ask them to intercede. You are just wrong. Of course JESUS wants a personal relationship with you directly. These things are not mutually exclusive just because you claim they are. Sorry for your blindness to the fullness of the faith. It is your loss.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You have to pray "to" someone who isn't alive on earth anymore, in order to ask them to pray for you. Your mistake is conflating "asking" with "praying". They are not the same.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
You make the typical mistake of conflating asking someone to pray for you with "praying to" that person. This is simply wrong. Your invalid assumptions lead to invalid conclusions.
And NOWHERE in scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God alone. There is no indication whatsoever that people in heaven can even hear our prayers. And that's assuming who you're praying to is indeed in heaven and not hell. Stop praying to Mary, and pray directly to Jesus. Praying to Mary is an offense to Jesus' character because you are saying He isn't powerful enough, loving enough, or desiring enough to want to hear from you and deal with you directly.
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I (Jesus) stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."
JESUS is knocking. JESUS wants you to open the door to HIM. JESUS will come in, JESUS will eat with you, and you with HIM.
JESUS wants this personal relationship with you. YOU directly. NOT through Mary, NOT through the saints, NOT through anyone else.
Pretty sure my wife would disagree ...curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your wife to pray for you.
Holy Scripture, tradition, and reason all say you are wrong. You have to go through a lot of selective interpretation in order to arrive at your conclusions. The communion of saints is real.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:One is normal human verbal communication. The other is spiritual communication.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your wife to pray for you.
One is instructed in the bible to do. The other is not and in fact is forbidden.
One I know can hear me when I ask. The other, I have to have faith in her omniscience to hear me.
One gives attributes to a person no longer living on this earth (ability to hear our prayers spiritually) that only God possesses, and therefore is an offense to God and is idolatry. The other does not, and is not.
.......so they are most certainly different.
Sad for you both then.Oldbear83 said:Pretty sure my wife would disagree ...curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm sure.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sure, I'd be very happy, if say, my wife were to say that about my mother.Coke Bear said:
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
If, however, I want to have a close relationship with my wife, but she keeps going to my mother to give her messages to relay to me instead of just coming to me directly; or she keeps going to my mother to have her tell me her wants and needs; or when she gets in trouble she keeps calling my mother to get me to help her instead of calling me directly for help; and when I look around our house, I keep seeing her hanging up pictures and statues of my mother, often kissing them and talking to them......
....I'd start thinking she really loves my mother, and not me. I'd start thinking she was afraid of me, doesn't trust me, doesn't feel close to me, and feels like she needs my mother to tell me things so that I'd listen. Worst of all, I'd think that she doesn't think I love her enough to want to deal with her and her alone directly. If I wanted to have a close relationship with my wife, I'd feel very offended and hurt by all that.
So no, I wouldn't like that at all. Not one bit. And neither would anyone else. And especially not Jesus.
Do you ever pray for your wife? Does she ever pray for you?
But if my wife kept praying for my mother, that my mother would pray for me, instead of praying for me directly, then that would be an issue.
Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your wife to pray for you.
Oh, you're not praying to your late father or Mary?? What, you have their heavenly telephone number and call them collect??curtpenn said:No, you don't have to "pray to someone who isn't alive on earth anymore in order to ask them to pray for you". I am not praying to my late father or Mary when I ask them to intercede. You are just wrong. Of course JESUS wants a personal relationship with you directly. These things are not mutually exclusive just because you claim they are. Sorry for your blindness to the fullness of the faith. It is your loss.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You have to pray "to" someone who isn't alive on earth anymore, in order to ask them to pray for you. Your mistake is conflating "asking" with "praying". They are not the same.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
You make the typical mistake of conflating asking someone to pray for you with "praying to" that person. This is simply wrong. Your invalid assumptions lead to invalid conclusions.
And NOWHERE in scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God alone. There is no indication whatsoever that people in heaven can even hear our prayers. And that's assuming who you're praying to is indeed in heaven and not hell. Stop praying to Mary, and pray directly to Jesus. Praying to Mary is an offense to Jesus' character because you are saying He isn't powerful enough, loving enough, or desiring enough to want to hear from you and deal with you directly.
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I (Jesus) stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."
JESUS is knocking. JESUS wants you to open the door to HIM. JESUS will come in, JESUS will eat with you, and you with HIM.
JESUS wants this personal relationship with you. YOU directly. NOT through Mary, NOT through the saints, NOT through anyone else.
Prayer is spiritual communication. We are commanded to pray to God, who hears us in Spirit. We don't have to verbalize because God hears our thoughts. Saying that your late father or Mary can "hear" your thoughts is giving them attributes that God only possesses. You have absolutely nothing in scripture that tells you they have that kind of ability.
If you are committing idolatry, then YES, it IS mutually exclusive! You won't be able to have a close personal relationship with Jesus because of the ongoing sin of idolatry, for which you are unrepentant.
HOW would it be my "loss" in the "fullness of faith"?? Are you saying that going to directly to Jesus is somehow LESSER than going through dead saints and Mary? That Jesus isn't enough? That Jesus is DEFICIENT?
There is indeed blindness here. I really hope you strongly consider everything I've said, and open your heart to the truth.
It's nice to think about the possibility that our loved ones in heaven can see us and hear us. The bible doesn't specifically say that they can't, so it would be wrong to dogmatically claim that. When I say that we shouldn't "pray" to our late loved ones, this doesn't mean talking out loud to them with short messages, like "I love you and miss you" or "I'm sorry I didn't treat you better" or whatever, in the hopes that they are able to hear you. I find myself doing that occasionally. Perhaps God allows us to have a special spiritual connection with those we had special connections with while they were alive on earth. That would be wonderful if true, but we don't know. So if someone wants to do that, I don't think that is necessarily unbiblical and an offense to God.
What I mean by "prayer" is that you do it like you do for God - there is the full belief that not only the person you're praying to has the ability to hear you, but also that an appeal to them can effect an outcome. With God, it is worshipful. It means humbling oneself and perhaps bowing, getting on your knees, hands together, etc. and then communicating spiritually with God. Praises and thanks are given, forgiveness and blessings are asked for, supplications are made. This is what Catholics do to Mary, and to a lesser degree perhaps, to saints. And as we've seen from Catholic prayers to Mary, there is even the elevation of Mary to the level of Jesus. That is what is wrong. This kind of spiritual, worshipful communication is reserved for God alone, and elevating Mary in that way is idolatry.
What I mean by "prayer" is that you do it like you do for God - there is the full belief that not only the person you're praying to has the ability to hear you, but also that an appeal to them can effect an outcome. With God, it is worshipful. It means humbling oneself and perhaps bowing, getting on your knees, hands together, etc. and then communicating spiritually with God. Praises and thanks are given, forgiveness and blessings are asked for, supplications are made. This is what Catholics do to Mary, and to a lesser degree perhaps, to saints. And as we've seen from Catholic prayers to Mary, there is even the elevation of Mary to the level of Jesus. That is what is wrong. This kind of spiritual, worshipful communication is reserved for God alone, and elevating Mary in that way is idolatry.
Love your use of CAPS, btw. Makes your case so compelling. That you choose to reject what the majority of Christians who have ever lived believed and practiced is YOUR problem (did it work?). How do you know only God hears our requests for prayers? You may believe that most sincerely, but cannot prove it. Cutting yourself off from the intercessions of others is your "loss". Does asking others to pray for you render Jesus LESSER or DEFICIENT? Of course NOT. Saints are NOT DEAD and neither is Mary. There is indeed blindness here. I really hope you strongly consider everything I've said and open your heart to the truth.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oh, you're not praying to your late father or Mary?? What, you have their heavenly telephone number and call them collect??curtpenn said:No, you don't have to "pray to someone who isn't alive on earth anymore in order to ask them to pray for you". I am not praying to my late father or Mary when I ask them to intercede. You are just wrong. Of course JESUS wants a personal relationship with you directly. These things are not mutually exclusive just because you claim they are. Sorry for your blindness to the fullness of the faith. It is your loss.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You have to pray "to" someone who isn't alive on earth anymore, in order to ask them to pray for you. Your mistake is conflating "asking" with "praying". They are not the same.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Again, if you can't see this as elevating Mary to the role of Jesus, and see that as idolatry, then you are deceived.Quote:Quote:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Catholicism elevates Mary's attributes and role to that of Jesus and the Father. This is pure idolatry. I ask my Catholic friends to take a step back and look at this for what it truly is. Stop with the prayers, veneration(worship!), and dedication to Mary, and stop with the disingenuous biblical exegesis/eisegesis and fallacious, convoluted ad hoc explanations to justify such. REPENT - and start giving your prayers, worship, and dedication to Jesus only - lest you one day hear these frightful, terrible words from Jesus: "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Elevating Mary's attributes - No. Catholics don't do that. EVERYTHING "attributed" to Mary is ONLY because of her Son. One can NOT love Mary more than Jesus did. Once again, veneration is NOT worship. It is great respect; reverence.
Giving Mary respect and honor as the Mother of God makes Jesus happy. Would you be happy if someone told you, Oh, I just love your mother! She is so sweet and always cheers me up when I'm down. She's a great friend and blessing in my life!"?
Would you be jealous? Would you be angry? No! Neither is Jesus when we appreciate His Mother.
I would dire you, or anyone else to sincerely ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray (or intercede) for you for 9 days - a novena. Ask for something very difficult. Maybe it's a removal of a "thorn" from your body. Maybe it's difficult work, family, or financial situation. Whatever. We all have difficult crosses to bear.
If you are worried about idolatry, try a simple pray like,
"Dear Father in Heaven, if this prayer is idolatry or sinful, please forgive me … Dear Blessed Mother, please pray for me for this matter (whatever it is you desire help with.)"
Worse case, in 9 days nothing happens, and God knows that you did not commit a sin because it was a test.
Best case, the "thorn" is removed and you see that Mary can intercede for people.
I will never dare to pray to Mary and commit idolatry. Jesus gave us NO indication in his Word that we are to pray, worship, and venerate anyone but him. So that is what I will obey.
Question: why did Catholicism REMOVE the part about bowing to idols in the Ten Commandments? Please really think about this. And I ask that YOU pray ONLY to Jesus, to give you the Holy Spirit so you can discern whether what you're doing is idolatry or not.
You make the typical mistake of conflating asking someone to pray for you with "praying to" that person. This is simply wrong. Your invalid assumptions lead to invalid conclusions.
And NOWHERE in scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God alone. There is no indication whatsoever that people in heaven can even hear our prayers. And that's assuming who you're praying to is indeed in heaven and not hell. Stop praying to Mary, and pray directly to Jesus. Praying to Mary is an offense to Jesus' character because you are saying He isn't powerful enough, loving enough, or desiring enough to want to hear from you and deal with you directly.
Revelation 3:20 - "Behold, I (Jesus) stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."
JESUS is knocking. JESUS wants you to open the door to HIM. JESUS will come in, JESUS will eat with you, and you with HIM.
JESUS wants this personal relationship with you. YOU directly. NOT through Mary, NOT through the saints, NOT through anyone else.
Prayer is spiritual communication. We are commanded to pray to God, who hears us in Spirit. We don't have to verbalize because God hears our thoughts. Saying that your late father or Mary can "hear" your thoughts is giving them attributes that God only possesses. You have absolutely nothing in scripture that tells you they have that kind of ability.
If you are committing idolatry, then YES, it IS mutually exclusive! You won't be able to have a close personal relationship with Jesus because of the ongoing sin of idolatry, for which you are unrepentant.
HOW would it be my "loss" in the "fullness of faith"?? Are you saying that going to directly to Jesus is somehow LESSER than going through dead saints and Mary? That Jesus isn't enough? That Jesus is DEFICIENT?
There is indeed blindness here. I really hope you strongly consider everything I've said, and open your heart to the truth.
As an Anglican, I don't pretend to speak for Roman Catholics, but I'm fairly sure there is nothing in the Roman Catechism that elevates Mary to the level of Jesus. You may have misconstrued or misunderstood. As you accuse others of Mariolatry, you are likely guilty of Bibliolatry. This is typical of many Protestants, in general. They claim Sola Scriptura (or some combo of Solas), yet insist that their individual interpretation must be the only correct one.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It's nice to think about the possibility that our loved ones in heaven can see us and hear us. The bible doesn't specifically say that they can't, so it would be wrong to dogmatically claim that. When I say that we shouldn't "pray" to our late loved ones, this doesn't mean talking out loud to them with short messages, like "I love you and miss you" or "I'm sorry I didn't treat you better" or whatever, in the hopes that they are able to hear you. I find myself doing that occasionally. Perhaps God allows us to have a special spiritual connection with those we had special connections with while they were alive on earth. That would be wonderful if true, but we don't know. So if someone wants to do that, I don't think that is necessarily unbiblical and an offense to God.
What I mean by "prayer" is that you do it like you do for God - there is the full belief that not only the person you're praying to has the ability to hear you, but also that an appeal to them can effect an outcome. With God, it is worshipful. It means humbling oneself and perhaps bowing, getting on your knees, hands together, etc. and then communicating spiritually with God. Praises and thanks are given, forgiveness and blessings are asked for, supplications are made. This is what Catholics do to Mary, and to a lesser degree perhaps, to saints. And as we've seen from Catholic prayers to Mary, there is even the elevation of Mary to the level of Jesus. That is what is wrong. This kind of spiritual, worshipful communication is reserved for God alone, and elevating Mary in that way is idolatry.
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Yeah, so unScriptural and blasphemous. Sure.