curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

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What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

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What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

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I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

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So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

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Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which composes the communion of saints.

Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.

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Third century is not early. Even gnosticism was around well before then, so obviously, heresy doesn't need that much time to develop. That's why Sola Scriptura is necessary.

Saying that because Jesus didn't specifically prohibit something means it's ok to do, is a dangerous and foolish way to think. You can reason that way to justify anything. That's how liberal Christians try to justify sin. Trying to take a single reference about a "cloud of witnesses" and extrapolating that out to a whole belief system of praying to Mary and saints is too much of a reach, especially since there are no corroborating verses that make this out to be more than just a metaphor.

It isn't just those "obscure" prayers (its hardly obscure -it's fully endorsed and promoted by the Catholic Church, having gone through 800 editions, and it is quoted often by bishops and Popes). There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.

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What is "saving faith" in your opinion?

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Faith in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

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"It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view." - In what way is my use of "mediator" and "intercessor" incorrect or disingenuous in any way, and how am I using them as a "cudgel"? Your criticism here doesn't make any sense, I don't understand what your problem is with this. Again, it appears to be more out of spite than a pursuit of truth.

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That my criticism "doesn't make any sense" and that you "don't understand what your problem is with this" is a big part of your problem if true.

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Explain it to me then. If you can't, then you obviously don't really understand it either. What's the issue with my use of the terms "mediator" and "intercessor", and how am I using it to "cudgel" Catholics?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

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Jesus did not "command" we be one, at least not that I know of. I know, rather, that he prayed that all believers be one (John 17:11, 20-21). I don't know how this is supposed to mean we can pray to and worship Mary and the saints, though.

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John 17:21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

More semantic games from you re "commanded" vs "prayed". Typical. FWIW, nothing to do with Mary, but plenty to do with unity.

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This WHOLE CHAPTER (Ch 17) in John is known as the "High Priestly Prayer" of Jesus that he prayed for us, his body of believers. Look back at verse 9:

"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."..........(v 20): "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you...."

Jesus is not "commanding" us to be one. He is ASKING THE FATHER to "keep (us believers) in his name" so that we may be one. You're just not being accurate and precise with Scripture here. It seems to be a pattern. And no one is arguing against unity, so I don't see the relevance with that.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

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I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

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So, what does the First Church of Tarp Dusting believe is salvific? Rather what the original post is all about after all.

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Never heard of that church. Your spite is really blinding you.

Saving faith is what is salvivic.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your first quote from the Shephard of Hermas emphasizes prayer to the LORD. Nothing in there about praying to Mary, saints, or even angels.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your second quote from Clement of Alexander says nothing about praying to Mary or saints.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your third quote from Origen is saying that departed saints pray for people, not that people pray to saints.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your fourth quote from the Rylands Papyrus is dated 200 years after the time of Jesus and the apostles. This does not link it to Jesus, his apostles, or even the apostles to the apostles. Even gnosticism had the Ryland Papyrus beat, havng appeared earlier, and it was rejected for not being traced to the beliefs, teaching, and practice of the early church.

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

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What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

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I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

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I may have missed it, so please show me where I said I "had no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted". I think you are a either misunderstanding, confused about who has said what, or a lying sack of ***** I did say it was obscure and I think I said it is not Catholic dogma (which has the benefit of being true, fwiw). You are so wedded to your spite and invincible in your own ignorance that it is you who are in darkness so deep you claim the majority of Christians are in darkness. "NO true Christian..." Seriously? Get thee behind me.

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

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Jesus' atonement saves.

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?

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There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which composes the communion of saints.

Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.

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Third century is not early. Even gnosticism was around well before then, so obviously, heresy doesn't need that much time to develop. That's why Sola Scriptura is necessary.

Saying that because Jesus didn't specifically prohibit something means it's ok to do, is a dangerous and foolish way to think. You can reason that way to justify anything. That's how liberal Christians try to justify sin. Trying to take a single reference about a "cloud of witnesses" and extrapolating that out to a whole belief system of praying to Mary and saints is too much of a reach, especially since there are no corroborating verses that make this out to be more than just a metaphor.

It isn't just those "obscure" prayers (its hardly obscure -it's fully endorsed and promoted by the Catholic Church, having gone through 800 editions, and it is quoted often by bishops and Popes). There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.

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What is "saving faith" in your opinion?

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Faith in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

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Having faith in Christ for our salvation and invoking the saints are not mutually exclusive. Why so twisted up over adiaphora. Why do you insist on "making windows into men's souls"? You defy Jesus with your divisiveness.

---

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

"It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view." - In what way is my use of "mediator" and "intercessor" incorrect or disingenuous in any way, and how am I using them as a "cudgel"? Your criticism here doesn't make any sense, I don't understand what your problem is with this. Again, it appears to be more out of spite than a pursuit of truth.

---

That my criticism "doesn't make any sense" and that you "don't understand what your problem is with this" is a big part of your problem if true.

---

Explain it to me then. If you can't, then you obviously don't really understand it either. What's the issue with my use of the terms "mediator" and "intercessor", and how am I using it to "cudgel" Catholics?

---

I fully understand it. That you don't, can't, or won't see it speaks to your lack of understanding or innate obtuseness. As to cudgeling Catholics, that's all you've done here. Res ipsa loquitur.

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

Jesus did not "command" we be one, at least not that I know of. I know, rather, that he prayed that all believers be one (John 17:11, 20-21). I don't know how this is supposed to mean we can pray to and worship Mary and the saints, though.

---

John 17:21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

More semantic games from you re "commanded" vs "prayed". Typical. FWIW, nothing to do with Mary, but plenty to do with unity.

---

This WHOLE CHAPTER (Ch 17) in John is known as the "High Priestly Prayer" of Jesus that he prayed for us, his body of believers. Look back at verse 9:

"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."..........(v 20): "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you...."

Jesus is not "commanding" us to be one. He is ASKING THE FATHER to "keep (us believers) in his name" so that we may be one. You're just not being accurate and precise with Scripture here. It seems to be a pattern. And no one is arguing against unity, so I don't see the relevance with that.

---

Typical twisting/spinning from you. I never accused you of arguing against unity; I said you are being divisive. You are actively dividing. Just one straw man after another from you.

---

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

---

So, what does the First Church of Tarp Dusting believe is salvific? Rather what the original post is all about after all.

---

Never heard of that church. Your spite is really blinding you.

Saving faith is what is salvivic.

---

And what in your opinion constitutes or qualifies as "saving faith"?

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

---

Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

---

I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

---

The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

---

What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

---

I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

---

I may have missed it, so please show me where I said I "had no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted". I think you are a either misunderstanding, confused about who has said what, or a lying sack of ***** I did say it was obscure and I think I said it is not Catholic dogma (which has the benefit of being true, fwiw). You are so wedded to your spite and invincible in your own ignorance that it is you who are in darkness so deep you claim the majority of Christians are in darkness. "NO true Christian..." Seriously? Get thee behind me.

---

This is your response to those prayers to Mary I posted:

"Just because you are confused about the true nature of veneration and deny the efficacy of intercessory prayer doesn't mean Marian devotion is idolatry. Too many Protestants are blind to that which most Christians have believed from the earliest days of the church and rejected much that is good, beautiful, and true".....

.....and specifically to the prayer that said to trust Mary with one's eternal salvation and one's soul, you said:

"You place your own interpretation on the above and condemn those who receive this differently.....This suggests the supplicant already has eternal salvation and a soul so that he is worthy of Mary's advocacy. No heresy there."


Yes, it is true: no true Christian, if they truly have the Holy Spirit, would EVER even THINK of calling Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", the "glory of heaven", "ruler of my house", "Mediator" (yes, capitalized), and tell her "I give you my heart and soul", "I place my eternal salvation in your hands", and believe that Mary is the one who "grants (us) to go to heaven". If you can honestly read those words, and not realize what's wrong with them, and not recognize those descriptions as belonging to someone else we know in the Bible - then you are in complete, utter darkness and you do not have the love of Jesus in you. I don't see how this can be any more clear.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

---

I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.

---

So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?

---

Isn't that obvious? We do not act as the single intercessor between others and Jesus/God, without which there is no other path. However, Jesus IS the single intercessor between us and God, and without him there is no other path. Our intercession doesn't save. Only Jesus' intercession saves.

---

It's obvious to me you toss around terms such as mediator and intercessor in an arbitrary way and use them to cudgel Catholic beliefs when it suits your view.

Are we "saved" by Jesus' intercession? Or are we perhaps saved by grace through faith? Or, maybe double predestination is a thing and some are predestined to be saved and others to be separated eternally? Maybe TULIP is real. Or, maybe just some are predestined to be saved and those others… well, who can say?

Perhaps you may have said elsewhere to what denomination you belong. If so, I apologize for missing it. Could you please remind me? I'm also curious as to your position on the the historic creeds. What do you make of Jesus' commands that we (Christians) be one?

---

I belong to no denomination. I'm simply a believer in Jesus as he's been revealed to us through God's word.

---

So, what does the First Church of Tarp Dusting believe is salvific? Rather what the original post is all about after all.

---

Never heard of that church. Your spite is really blinding you.

Saving faith is what is salvivic.

---

And what in your opinion constitutes or qualifies as "saving faith"?

---

You're going in a circle. No futile argumentation, please.

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your first quote from the Shephard of Hermas emphasizes prayer to the LORD. Nothing in there about praying to Mary, saints, or even angels.

---

having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession,

The angel is praying (interceding) for him.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your second quote from Clement of Alexander says nothing about praying to Mary or saints.

---

he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].

The saints are praying (interceding) for him (the Christian.)

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your third quote from Origen is saying that departed saints pray for people, not that people pray to saints.

---

This is what the saints do for us. They are praying (interceding) for us. They have to know what to pray for. We ask the saints to intercede for us.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your fourth quote from the Rylands Papyrus is dated 200 years after the time of Jesus and the apostles. This does not link it to Jesus, his apostles, or even the apostles to the apostles. Even gnosticism had the Ryland Papyrus beat, havng appeared earlier, and it was rejected for not being traced to the beliefs, teaching, and practice of the early church.

---

Talk about Moving the Goalpost fallacy. This prayer refutes your statements, so the goalposts are moved.

250 AD is 75 years prior First Council of Nicaea. And alo+st 100 more until the Council of Ephesus in 431 when it was affirmed by the Council that Mary is The (Mother of God)otokos. If asking the saints or Mary for their intercession was heretical, it would have been address by these Councils then or at least by some Church father.

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

---

Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

---

I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

---

The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

---

What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

---

I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

---

I may have missed it, so please show me where I said I "had no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted". I think you are a either misunderstanding, confused about who has said what, or a lying sack of ***** I did say it was obscure and I think I said it is not Catholic dogma (which has the benefit of being true, fwiw). You are so wedded to your spite and invincible in your own ignorance that it is you who are in darkness so deep you claim the majority of Christians are in darkness. "NO true Christian..." Seriously? Get thee behind me.

---

This is your response to those prayers to Mary I posted:

"Just because you are confused about the true nature of veneration and deny the efficacy of intercessory prayer doesn't mean Marian devotion is idolatry. Too many Protestants are blind to that which most Christians have believed from the earliest days of the church and rejected much that is good, beautiful, and true".....

.....and specifically to the prayer that said to trust Mary with one's eternal salvation and one's soul, you said:

"You place your own interpretation on the above and condemn those who receive this differently.....This suggests the supplicant already has eternal salvation and a soul so that he is worthy of Mary's advocacy. No heresy there."


Yes, it is true: no true Christian, if they truly have the Holy Spirit, would EVER even THINK of calling Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", the "glory of heaven", "ruler of my house", "Mediator" (yes, capitalized), and tell her "I give you my heart and soul", "I place my eternal salvation in your hands", and believe that Mary is the one who "grants (us) to go to heaven". If you can honestly read those words, and not realize what's wrong with them, and not recognize those descriptions as belonging to someone else we know in the Bible - then you are in complete, utter darkness and you do not have the love of Jesus in you. I don't see how this can be any more clear.

---

Nowhere in what you clipped did I say I had no problem with that particular prayer. You are a pernicious liar. I addressed specific issues. Try harder.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

]- The angel is praying/interceding for him. He is NOT praying to the angel for that intercession.

- The choir of the saints is praying/interceding for him. He is NOT praying to the choir of the saints for that intercession.

- The quote says that's what saints do for us. It does NOT say anything about us praying to them.

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

]- The angel is praying/interceding for him. He is NOT praying to the angel for that intercession.

- The choir of the saints is praying/interceding for him. He is NOT praying to the choir of the saints for that intercession.

- The quote says that's what saints do for us. It does NOT say anything about us praying to them.

---

So would you agree that these quotes show that other heavenly intercessors (angels and saints) exist? Jesus is not the only intercessor.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

---

Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

---

I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

---

So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

---

Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

---

I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

---

The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

---

What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

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I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

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I may have missed it, so please show me where I said I "had no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted". I think you are a either misunderstanding, confused about who has said what, or a lying sack of ***** I did say it was obscure and I think I said it is not Catholic dogma (which has the benefit of being true, fwiw). You are so wedded to your spite and invincible in your own ignorance that it is you who are in darkness so deep you claim the majority of Christians are in darkness. "NO true Christian..." Seriously? Get thee behind me.

---

This is your response to those prayers to Mary I posted:

"Just because you are confused about the true nature of veneration and deny the efficacy of intercessory prayer doesn't mean Marian devotion is idolatry. Too many Protestants are blind to that which most Christians have believed from the earliest days of the church and rejected much that is good, beautiful, and true".....

.....and specifically to the prayer that said to trust Mary with one's eternal salvation and one's soul, you said:

"You place your own interpretation on the above and condemn those who receive this differently.....This suggests the supplicant already has eternal salvation and a soul so that he is worthy of Mary's advocacy. No heresy there."


Yes, it is true: no true Christian, if they truly have the Holy Spirit, would EVER even THINK of calling Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", the "glory of heaven", "ruler of my house", "Mediator" (yes, capitalized), and tell her "I give you my heart and soul", "I place my eternal salvation in your hands", and believe that Mary is the one who "grants (us) to go to heaven". If you can honestly read those words, and not realize what's wrong with them, and not recognize those descriptions as belonging to someone else we know in the Bible - then you are in complete, utter darkness and you do not have the love of Jesus in you. I don't see how this can be any more clear.

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Nowhere in what you clipped did I say I had no problem with that particular prayer. You are a pernicious liar. I addressed specific issues. Try harder.

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Nowhere did I say that you said you had no problem with those prayers.

Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" yet another comment?

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.

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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.

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I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.

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So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.

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Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)

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I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.

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The only issue is not that you believe you must. The issue is also that you attribute to Mary and saints a capacity that we are not told from Scripture that they have. You are also attributing a capacity of the divine to Mary and the saints if you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, and that they can effect results. You are also giving to them what you are supposed to give God/Jesus only. Prayer is worship. You don't pray to Mary or the saints, just like you don't pray to righteous people who are living.

I'm not criticizing intent here. But even good intent may lead to wrong action. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

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What you assert are opinions just as what I assert are also opinions. You will never convince me that Holy Scripture does not infer the efficacy of the prayers of the saints. Requesting their intercession is not giving them worship. You always come back to that straw man. Find something better (if you are able).

---

I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous. NO true Christian would even THINK of saying anything close to what is said about Mary in those prayers. I will say again - if you can't see the problem in those prayers, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. I won't convince you of anything, sure. But I have been praying that you, CokeBear, Sam, and others will have your eyes opened. In that way I am being your "intercessor". But I don't want you to pray TO me for that intercession, because that would be idolatrous, right?

---

I may have missed it, so please show me where I said I "had no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted". I think you are a either misunderstanding, confused about who has said what, or a lying sack of ***** I did say it was obscure and I think I said it is not Catholic dogma (which has the benefit of being true, fwiw). You are so wedded to your spite and invincible in your own ignorance that it is you who are in darkness so deep you claim the majority of Christians are in darkness. "NO true Christian..." Seriously? Get thee behind me.

---

This is your response to those prayers to Mary I posted:

"Just because you are confused about the true nature of veneration and deny the efficacy of intercessory prayer doesn't mean Marian devotion is idolatry. Too many Protestants are blind to that which most Christians have believed from the earliest days of the church and rejected much that is good, beautiful, and true".....

.....and specifically to the prayer that said to trust Mary with one's eternal salvation and one's soul, you said:

"You place your own interpretation on the above and condemn those who receive this differently.....This suggests the supplicant already has eternal salvation and a soul so that he is worthy of Mary's advocacy. No heresy there."


Yes, it is true: no true Christian, if they truly have the Holy Spirit, would EVER even THINK of calling Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", the "glory of heaven", "ruler of my house", "Mediator" (yes, capitalized), and tell her "I give you my heart and soul", "I place my eternal salvation in your hands", and believe that Mary is the one who "grants (us) to go to heaven". If you can honestly read those words, and not realize what's wrong with them, and not recognize those descriptions as belonging to someone else we know in the Bible - then you are in complete, utter darkness and you do not have the love of Jesus in you. I don't see how this can be any more clear.

---

Nowhere in what you clipped did I say I had no problem with that particular prayer. You are a pernicious liar. I addressed specific issues. Try harder.

---

Nowhere did I say that you said you had no problem with those prayers.

Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" yet another comment?

---

"I agree that I probably won't convince you. You are clearly in darkness. I say this because you saw no problem with those prayers to Mary that I posted. This is a tremendous red flag. Any Christian who has the Holy Spirit would KNOW without a doubt those prayers are blatantly idolatrous."

These are your own words. You are so confused you don't even know what you say. Pathetic really.

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mtpockets;1689895283 said:

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[url=https://imgbb.com/][/url]

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

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Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

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